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On June 22 2013 17:31 govie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Got some questions and remarks after my first ingame try : Remarks1. Doubletap space builds supplydepot. This is really nice, i can use my thumb more; 2. I like that stim etc is on space. I dont have to look what key im pressing to enable certain abilities and use my thumb too; 3. Having cc, rax, fact. and port on : alt+hotkey takes some getting used to but,but,but.... it eliminates the usage of key 6,7,8 etc on keyboard (i allways hated that). So it could be worth it. Ill have to see how long it takes for me too get used too it. 4. The abilities buttons are 1 row higher which is much more pleasant. Questions1. What does rapidfirekey "S"do exactly when i play terran. Or what and how do i utilize it? 2. Select warpgates is alt+middlemouse button. Does this also count for terran rax? I like it so far. Deserves more testing and getting used too 
About remark 3-- It's recommended to put CC's on Tab. It lets you roll and alternate your fingers for CC macro abilities and worker production. They pretty much line up with your fingers this way. Rax, Factory and Starports are suggested for Q,W,E, and any upgrades you're keeping an eye on can go on R (helps line up timing attacks without staring at your base). These are merely suggestions though, you could use Tabbed production too if you wanted (I often think about this). Many agree that subgroup selection on side mouse buttons works well so I'd suggest that. If I were to implement tabbed production, I would place all of army production structures on Caps Lock I think. This lets your pinky handle some work to make it easier on your ring/middle/index fingers. It's also easy as hell to add to add to that group while on Caps Lock as it's right next to Shift. Anyways, that's just an idea if you didn't like the Alt+Q,W,E thing and also don't like using 5,6,7,8.
Actually.. You could set that up easily and rebind/forego the Base Camera key that's on Caps Lock atm (you could use Camera Locations instead to jump through bases). That way you could monitor your production really quick through Alt+Q,W,E, AND issue production commands fairly easy...? Could work? Just an idea!
Answers
1. With Terran, the Rapidfire Ability key does a few useful things for you. To use it with any ability or command, you can hold Shift, press the key for the specific ability/command, and then execute it with S as much as you want. For abilities that fall on S, you only have to hold the S key. Apart from rapid Ghost Snipes to ward off HT's, you can send out multiple HSM's (not always the best way to spend the energy mind you, calculated usage is always best obviously), you can drop multiple MULES really fast if you fall behind on macro or have a lot of Orbitals, you can calldown Depots in an emergency if you need to, and you can send out rapid Build commands (only "really" applicable in the case of Depots in a supply block situation). There may be other uses for it, but I haven't discovered them yet. In testing, I have used rapid Attack-Move commands, sent out in arcs, then boxed small chunks of the forces, and issued Hold Position commands to each as they moved to create large concaves quickly. It's a cute micro trick that might help out?
2. I guess you could do that. You'd just have to put a Control Group on Alt+MMB, and change the Shift+MMB function to Add, and Ctrl+MMB to create/rewrite the group.
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On June 22 2013 18:10 bypLy wrote:
any experience of players who are using the core about this?`i might think of switching
I say the best course of action is to read what's in the OP and comments here to get an idea of what's up, and then head over to JaK's thread and ask the users there what they think. It's a very busy thread, so I'm sure you'd get a decent amount of responses. Those are the dudes who know TheCore the best.
Are there any lurkers out there/in here who can help this guy out? My Core-Fu is as rusty and non-existent they come-- I can't fully answer this one. I'll try to offer some advice though.
I've talked to people who have tried both and liked both for different reasons. Then of course others who only like one. Some research and trial is probably the only way you're going to get a good idea of what you like.
If you are thinking of switching but don't want to flip your brain upside-down, then I suggest just taking a good look at the cheat sheet and the Alloy section of the OP, and then hopping into a couple longer practice games against an easy AI opponent. If it begins to click with you after a couple of these games (or if it doesn't), then you'll have a much better idea as to which one you want to spend more time with.
On June 22 2013 20:27 AlAlkemist wrote:
Great Layout! I switched yesterday and really like the benifits of it. The only problem I have is that Ctrl-A Alt-A for camera does not work (I'm using Alloy). It is bound correctly in the options but doesn't work in game. All other camera hotkeys work perfectly. I was wondering if anyone else has the same issue.
Thanks!
It could be a hardware issue, I'm not sure. Try swapping the keyboard to test it, or if you run any registry hacks to swap key functions then disable them (Sharpkeys, etc). I've tested this with multiple keyboards and I can't replicate the problem. Anyone else know what could be wrong here?
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On June 23 2013 01:24 eneyeseekay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 20:27 AlAlkemist wrote:
Great Layout! I switched yesterday and really like the benifits of it. The only problem I have is that Ctrl-A Alt-A for camera does not work (I'm using Alloy). It is bound correctly in the options but doesn't work in game. All other camera hotkeys work perfectly. I was wondering if anyone else has the same issue.
Thanks! It could be a hardware issue, I'm not sure. Try swapping the keyboard to test it, or if you run any registry hacks to swap key functions then disable them (Sharpkeys, etc). I've tested this with multiple keyboards and I can't replicate the problem. Anyone else know what could be wrong here?
I tried with another keyboard but no luck. It is probably my system (I got no registry hacks). Anyways, not a deal breaker for me, since the other 7 location keys are plenty enough! I've grown to love this layout in just 2 days. It is quite efficient and, since I played grid, not that hard to get used to.
Thx for the help!
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great will check that out
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On June 23 2013 00:08 eneyeseekay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 17:31 govie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Got some questions and remarks after my first ingame try : Remarks1. Doubletap space builds supplydepot. This is really nice, i can use my thumb more; 2. I like that stim etc is on space. I dont have to look what key im pressing to enable certain abilities and use my thumb too; 3. Having cc, rax, fact. and port on : alt+hotkey takes some getting used to but,but,but.... it eliminates the usage of key 6,7,8 etc on keyboard (i allways hated that). So it could be worth it. Ill have to see how long it takes for me too get used too it. 4. The abilities buttons are 1 row higher which is much more pleasant. Questions1. What does rapidfirekey "S"do exactly when i play terran. Or what and how do i utilize it? 2. Select warpgates is alt+middlemouse button. Does this also count for terran rax? I like it so far. Deserves more testing and getting used too About remark 3-- It's recommended to put CC's on Tab. It lets you roll and alternate your fingers for CC macro abilities and worker production. They pretty much line up with your fingers this way. Rax, Factory and Starports are suggested for Q,W,E, and any upgrades you're keeping an eye on can go on R (helps line up timing attacks without staring at your base). These are merely suggestions though, you could use Tabbed production too if you wanted (I often think about this). Many agree that subgroup selection on side mouse buttons works well so I'd suggest that. If I were to implement tabbed production, I would place all of army production structures on Caps Lock I think. This lets your pinky handle some work to make it easier on your ring/middle/index fingers. It's also easy as hell to add to add to that group while on Caps Lock as it's right next to Shift. Anyways, that's just an idea if you didn't like the Alt+Q,W,E thing and also don't like using 5,6,7,8. Actually.. You could set that up easily and rebind/forego the Base Camera key that's on Caps Lock atm (you could use Camera Locations instead to jump through bases). That way you could monitor your production really quick through Alt+Q,W,E, AND issue production commands fairly easy...? Could work? Just an idea! Answers1. With Terran, the Rapidfire Ability key does a few useful things for you. To use it with any ability or command, you can hold Shift, press the key for the specific ability/command, and then execute it with S as much as you want. For abilities that fall on S, you only have to hold the S key. Apart from rapid Ghost Snipes to ward off HT's, you can send out multiple HSM's (not always the best way to spend the energy mind you, calculated usage is always best obviously), you can drop multiple MULES really fast if you fall behind on macro or have a lot of Orbitals, you can calldown Depots in an emergency if you need to, and you can send out rapid Build commands (only "really" applicable in the case of Depots in a supply block situation). There may be other uses for it, but I haven't discovered them yet. In testing, I have used rapid Attack-Move commands, sent out in arcs, then boxed small chunks of the forces, and issued Hold Position commands to each as they moved to create large concaves quickly. It's a cute micro trick that might help out? 2. I guess you could do that. You'd just have to put a Control Group on Alt+MMB, and change the Shift+MMB function to Add, and Ctrl+MMB to create/rewrite the group.
Thx for the answers, ill check that rapidfire out and try some stuff Im not going to change thee hotkeys at this point. Im gonna pratise more with basic setup
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@govie
All right, if you come up with any other clever ways to use the Rapidfire Ability key then let me know.
I've been debating about whether or not I should support the tabbed production thing or not. Do you think its necessary to have the option to view them fast and then another method to produce with potentially less finger work? I'd have to say one of the only complaints of this layout is the use of Alt for production--it receives some confusing love/hate attention. I'm sure many people who dislike it haven't really played with it much or at all, as it usually comes in the form of "I don't like the idea of Alt - - -- - --- --", or "I'm not sure how good Alt would be for production-- -- - --". All feedback is appreciated, but experienced feedback is what's really going to push this further; needless to say, I'm really glad you're giving the default config a go!
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Feedback comming right now. Ive tested the basic setup with 4 games against AI, 1 unit tester and 1 macro game in terran vs. terran 40 minute game with all the units there are except ghosts. There are alot of benefits with this setup.
1. Many powers to spacebar
This is just such an improvement. I dont have to search for the keys when i need an ability with units i dont frequently use (ghosts, raven etc). siege, stim, HSM, yamato etc all binded to spacebar. So easy when playing with a very mixed composition threw one long game. Spacebar is for donkeys like me
2. Alt groups
Im getting the hang of it. Groups for the building under alt+q,w,e,r. It works, still feels somewhat gimmicky, because its new, but im gonna keep it. I think 5 games more to get used to it.
3. Rapid key S
The rapid fire ability is a waste for terran, ive tested that in unittester. The rapid fire key casts to fast to be effective. The result is that ur ravens, ghosts etc will be energy empty and not/less effective. I think rapid fire is only usefull for getting infested terrans really fast, else not.
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On June 23 2013 21:42 govie wrote:Feedback comming right now. Ive tested the basic setup with 4 games against AI, 1 unit tester and 1 macro game in terran vs. terran 40 minute game with all the units there are except ghosts. There are alot of benefits with this setup. 1. Many powers to spacebarThis is just such an improvement. I dont have to search for the keys when i need an ability with units i dont frequently use (ghosts, raven etc). siege, stim, HSM, yamato etc all binded to spacebar. So easy when playing with a very mixed composition threw one long game. Spacebar is for donkeys like me 2. Alt groupsIm getting the hang of it. Groups for the building under alt+q,w,e,r. It works, still feels somewhat gimmicky, because its new, but im gonna keep it. I think 5 games more to get used to it. 3. Rapid key SThe rapid fire ability is a waste for terran, ive tested that in unittester. The rapid fire key casts to fast to be effective. The result is that ur ravens, ghosts etc will be energy empty and not/less effective. I think rapid fire is only usefull for getting infested terrans really fast, else not.
Terran benefits the least from the Rapidfire Ability Key for sure, but I wouldn't count out the ability to drop a lot of MULES quick. The feature really shines for Zerg though, as it lets you spread Creep, spam IT's, and perform injects faster (reliably may be more accurate, since it cuts out clicking between Hatcheries). Protoss can use it mainly for mass/fast Feedbacks and extremely fast lategame Warp-ins. It's a situational thing no matter what way you look at it.
The great thing about this particular feature in my opinion is the fact that it's there-- ready and available, and if you're not aware of it you wouldn't even know it was there! Whether or not this becomes a widely used feature or not, it is in no way imposing or inconvenient given its current binding.
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add Random to the race poll pls.
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Quick question on the RapidFire key: shouldn't it be for Feedback on High Templars instead of storm? Since storm doesn't stack it might make more sense to make Storm A (and keep the Space Bar alternate) and move Feedback to S. Very nice for holding down S and going over a Terran army in late game.
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On June 24 2013 12:55 Garnet wrote:
add Random to the race poll pls.
Done! Keep in mind, I don't run support for a Random layout. In case you are Random, just know that you *should* be ready to switch to either the Protoss & Terran hotkey file or the Zerg one upon spawning. I can't bring myself to create a heavily gimped Zerg version that stays in line with the T & P one. They just wouldn't mix well as a hybrid.
On June 24 2013 12:59 MilExo wrote:
Quick question on the RapidFire key: shouldn't it be for Feedback on Hight Templars instead of storm? Since storm doesn't stack it might make more sense to make Storm A (and keep the Space Bar alternate) and move Feedback to S. Very nice for holding down S and going over a Terran army in late game.
S is the sweet spot to keep the Rapidfire Ability Key on. Having it on S for Zerg pretty much makes it what it is. It allows mouseless injects to exist, and makes mass-spreading Creep as easy as possible. The location of S in Alloy is great because you'll only ever have to press either S by itself, or drop your fingers down naturally on either A or D and then execute with S.
Chances are, you're going to have your ring, middle and index fingers on Q,W,E or 1,2,3 respectively, so when you have to respond and ready a round of Feedbacks, you only have to hold Shift with your pinky, drop your ring finger down on A and then middle finger on S. Feedback may not be directly on S, but it's still a falling motion that's incredibly easy and quick to perform. Not only is it easy but it's a deliberate act, and that's important too. This applies to any spells on A or D that might need to be spammed for some reason. If you want another way to do it, feel free to swap it for Psi Storm or even add Feedback to your HT's Smart Key binding.
By default, S is for spam.
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Thanks for the quick feedback (no pun intended). The biggest problem is that you would probably not want to spam storm (same as force field). It is wasted if the one storm (or force field) overlaps with another, so the extra half a second delay makes sense in order to get the positioning right.
For feedback I would say that it might be something that one would like to spam more, i.e. feedback all medivacs coming in before morphing to archons.
Otherwise really loving the layout, just trying to get used to Alt+Q-R. Actually thinking of mapping a mouse side button to Alt - might make things a bit easier. But excellent work on the layout. It is easy to learn, reduces hand movement and is essentially future proof and not dependent on the meta game. Great work!
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Just a little bit more feedback. Had a impressive winningstreak on ladder yesterday with this hotkeysetup (after 5 practisematches). I like long macro games and won most of them (+/-20 minutes). Slowly getting it i guess.
Biggest advantage is when on more bases then 4. U have to constantly produce army behind a big engagement out of 12+rax 2+ factories and 2+ starports. I feel this hotkeysetup, gives me a better shot at spending stuff when in an engagement. I dont have to search for my hotkeys on keyboard anymore because there out of reach, i just look at the screen.. I just watch the battle, select armygroups, press space when needed, select productionbuildings while engaging and spend all tha money without not looking at the screen. ezpz.
This setup for me, as a macroplayer, works better then other setups ive tested so far. Gonna keep it!
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I'm a few weeks into using these hotkeys - first as Zerg (3 years experience playing standard) and now as Protoss (~2 weeks experience). Absolutely love them. Figuring out which buildings/units are which in Grid is really the only "hard" part of the adjustment.
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On June 25 2013 23:06 govie wrote:Just a little bit more feedback. Had a impressive winningstreak on ladder yesterday with this hotkeysetup (after 5 practisematches). I like long macro games and won most of them (+/-20 minutes). Slowly getting it i guess. Biggest advantage is when on more bases then 4. U have to constantly produce army behind a big engagement out of 12+rax 2+ factories and 2+ starports. I feel this hotkeysetup, gives me a better shot at spending stuff when in an engagement. I dont have to search for my hotkeys on keyboard anymore because there out of reach, i just look at the screen.. I just watch the battle, select armygroups, press space when needed, select productionbuildings while engaging and spend all tha money without not looking at the screen. ezpz. This setup for me, as a macroplayer, works better then other setups ive tested so far. Gonna keep it!
That's awesome govie! I'm really happy to hear that its been working out well for you! I've got a couple questions for you if you don't mind answering:
1. How do you feel about the Alt+ production bindings now that you have more practice with it?
2. You mention the lategame muscle the layout has helped with, how does the early and mid game feel?
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On June 26 2013 00:47 yakitate304 wrote:
I'm a few weeks into using these hotkeys - first as Zerg (3 years experience playing standard) and now as Protoss (~2 weeks experience). Absolutely love them. Figuring out which buildings/units are which in Grid is really the only "hard" part of the adjustment.
It's funny, because I felt the same way when learning Grid. As soon as I started on Grid, I knew it was easier than Standard. Overwriting years of messing about with Brood War's hotkeys made going from Standard to Grid harder than it needed to be. Grid is just so much more organized and tidy, and reeeealllly helps when off-racing/playing Random. Also, if you aren't sure of a particular binding, you can always look at the Command Cards, see the key it calls for, and chances are you fingers are very close to the Command you want to execute.
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On June 26 2013 00:54 eneyeseekay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 23:06 govie wrote:Just a little bit more feedback. Had a impressive winningstreak on ladder yesterday with this hotkeysetup (after 5 practisematches). I like long macro games and won most of them (+/-20 minutes). Slowly getting it i guess. Biggest advantage is when on more bases then 4. U have to constantly produce army behind a big engagement out of 12+rax 2+ factories and 2+ starports. I feel this hotkeysetup, gives me a better shot at spending stuff when in an engagement. I dont have to search for my hotkeys on keyboard anymore because there out of reach, i just look at the screen.. I just watch the battle, select armygroups, press space when needed, select productionbuildings while engaging and spend all tha money without not looking at the screen. ezpz. This setup for me, as a macroplayer, works better then other setups ive tested so far. Gonna keep it! That's awesome govie! I'm really happy to hear that its been working out well for you! I've got a couple questions for you if you don't mind answering: 1. How do you feel about the Alt+ production bindings now that you have more practice with it? 2. You mention the lategame muscle the layout has helped with, how does the early and mid game feel?
1. Well, it takes some getting used too (5 games), but it works out fine. My thumb has fitnesstraining now too!
2. Early/midgame, i'll devide that in micro/macro, which is easier to commentate.
Micro
Im not much of a micro orientated player, im not good enough for that yet, therefore i can't judge this setup for intensive microbattles. I can however see that the spacebar functionality saves players alot of actions, missclicks and time for searching for certain hotkeys. Therefore it would make a bigger variation of micro intensive units and more armygroups possible for peeps that arent used to a more microbased(ability) armycomposition.
A composition with many microintensive units like raven/viking, ghost, tank, MMM isnt impossible to control with this setup even for lowlevel players. And its all thanx too the 1 hotkey to rule them all, because u cant missclick an ability (only an armygroup).
Macro
Macrowise its the same early/mid/lategame. No looking at keyboard and I have more time to get better engagements, searching for the optimal concave, scouting and spend stuff during battles.
In general u could say that this setup gives me more time ingame then my old setup (or lets me execute actions more quickly and with a wider viarity which i could not do with my old setup). Micro, macro and engaging benefit from this setup. So, yes, its awesome. i.e. tvt macrobattles is very dependant on engagements, with this setup i have only lost 1 tvt (10+ games) because of the more time i have to judge situations. And that one loss was a stupid amove mistake (i had 60 more supply... before the stupid amove).
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I started playing Starcraft about a month ago. I played a little bit of BW years ago, but I don't think I even used hotkeys back then, so for all intents and purposes fleetkeys has been the only hotkey system I've ever used. To put it succinctly, I love fleetkeys. I don't know if its because I didn't have to "overwrite" previous experiences, but picking it up was ridiculously easy. When I started I was worried that learning hotkeys for each race was going to be a pain, but hotkeys makes the transition from one race to the next ridiculously simple. I started with terran and was really surprised at how smoothly I was able to start playing protoss. The same hand motion to build a barracks made a gateway etc. Zerg took was a little more tricky of a transition, but took only a couple games extra over the move from terran->protoss.
A couple observations:
1. I really dig alt- production. It seems to just click for me. My cc/nexus, barracks/gateway etc are always in the same place, always easily accessible. I can be in the middle of a fight and its a really natural motion to select barracks, spam Q, and then go back to micro (if you can call what I do micro  ). Again, not sure if this is just a product of learning starcraft and fleetkeys at the same time, but it just feels really natural.
2. For zerg I use alt- w/e/r for my main/natural/3rd so I can quickly see inject timings and selectively build zerglings/probes if need be.
3. I find alt- z/x/c/v somewhat difficult to use, particularly z. I don't know if my hand size is the problem or what, but it just seems like a difficult stretch to make. I've considered rebinding it to my side mouse buttons so its not a big deal, but it is probably the only "learning curve" I've had with fleetkeys.
4. I knew about the rapidfire key, but I initially thought it only worked for abilities bound to s. It might be useful to make it more clear that it can be used with any ability as long as shift is held.
5. In certain situations I've been using an alternate injection method that takes advantage of how fleetkeys has the rapidfire key bound. If you have all your queens in a single group: select your queens -> hold down s -> wave your mouse cursor around the minimap where your hatcheries are. The nice thing about this method is it is fairly quick when you get the hang of it and you don't have to move your camera away from the action.
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ok ppl, first of all congrats on the layout! it's awesome!
i read these answers diagonaly so i might be reposting something here, sorry for that.
just wanted to leave my 2 cents here.
i'm a firm user and defender of TheCore and i use it for my main race (zerg) but since i started to tryout protoss i felt the need to tap between production buildings which led me to fleetkeys. i knew it since i searched for an alternate layout but for zerg liked thecore for faster injects (or easier for me).
so, for protoss i think the TAB key for nexi is better (while for terran might be the other way arround) since u're gonna warp in at a speciffic place.
Alt+Q to select gates and if u got a camera on the warp pylon near op (i got always, at least 3 cams, Z X C for chrono, for wall, for warp pylon) you get the Alt+C right next.
this gets me to my next point, rapid fire key.
i started using it back with the core for creep spread. here i use it for warp ins. this is how it goes:
Alt+Q -> select gates
Alt+C -> go to proxy pylon (without unpressing Alt)
Q -> to select zealots (or any other unit/key)
Shift+S -> to warp in at keyboard repetition rate ( while waving mouse around)
this allows me to "empty" 10, 15, 20, how many gates i have active in under 2 secs
now my changes to fleetkeys (and i think everyone should ajust any layout to his/her preferences):
- cams from Alt+key to key only - i feel the need to move around more often than 2 key pressing alowed. this does not change the warp in method!
- next subgroup to Mid mouse button - i have a razer abyssus and with thecore i used that so no harm in continue!
- the most important change i made and the one i'd think most ppl should consider (and i have to thank to Jak and thecore crew) is changing the add to control group from shift+key to Ctrl+key.
what this alows is to reduce the number of keypresses. when i warp in 5 dt's and 4 stalkers and 2 zealots i intend to put them in different CG's so i Ctrl+Click on 1 unit and then CG key then Ctrl+click on the next unit and the next CG key... without ever letting go of Ctrl.
this is taking a bit longer post so i guess we'll continue if anyone as questions :D
all rights on this Ctrl thing goes to Jak and TheCore dev crew! i DO believe that you can have the best of both worlds (fleetkeys and thecore) as long as you acknowledge the ppl who took that to you!
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@naxi
- Do you keep your CC's/Nexus/Hatcheries on Tab or Q? You left out the Q binding (unless I missed it there?) so I wasn't sure what you were using it for.
- Alt+Z/X/C/V seems to be hit and miss with a lot of folks; there's a lot of mixed feedback on it. Some love it, and some find it awkward. I personally find it "okay". Z-V cameras are on the bottom row, which can be a bummer for some since a lot of the layout operates around Q/E and A-S.I still feel like they are in the best spots they can be in because not only is the arrangement nice and uniform (you have a block of 8 nearby cameras available), F5-F8 is also ridiculously far away. At least in the case of Fleet Keys, the function keys are way out of reach to be of any immediate use.
- I will definitely add that Inject method to the Additional Info section! I messed around with it briefly when testing the Rapidfire Ability Key, but I didn't think people would ever bother doing it. Minimap method minus the clicking is actually a big improvement form the original method. The mouseless Backspace Injects are pretty cool-- did you try that method yet? Camera Injects with Fleet Keys (mainly Alloy) are really fluid as well. There are lots of options for that as Zerg.
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EPT
