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Much thanks for providing this layout. The grid layout 'clicked' for me from the start, as it is laid out similar to other games and 3D software so felt familiar, but certain things about it still irked me (mostly the use of the 'z' key). Alloy addresses that exact issue while keeping the general intuitiveness of grid so it was an instant no-brainer.
I really wanted to give TheCore a try because 200+ pages must mean something, but I use a Microsoft 'Comfort Curve 3000' keyboard which makes using the ctrl-shift combo via the thumb a bit more awkward than I think it is supposed to be (they are oversized from a normal keyboard). It also lacks the 'intuitive' factor - in the heat of the moment you can't recall an obscure command by thinking about it - you either know where it is or you don't. Sure, that would come with practice. With a grid/Alloy layout, you can make a decent guess!
Someone upthread I think asked if you're learning a new layout anyway, why wouldn't you go with TheCore right from the outset - as a new SC2 player, the above intuitiveness factor would be a big reason. As a newbie, TheCore is alien not just because of the unusal 'use the wrong side of the keyboard' factor, but because of the layout in general - it puts things in priority order. As a newbie, you most certainly have no idea about priority so the learning curve is steeper because you can't see the 'why' of certain choices until you have a deeper understanding of the game.
I only have two minor 'complaints' about Alloy:
* It is awkward to have 'Add to group' use shift-alt for Q-R, but only use shift for TAB. Same for CAPS LOCK vs. A-V. However, I don't think this is something Alloy can fix because you can't override the ALT-TAB function, for example. Unfortunate, as that has been my biggest stumbling block in adapting to Alloy.
* I'd like to see the original post updated with the latest links to the Alloy downloads (including the new cheatsheets), and the large changelog/guide that was posted on page 8. It took me a while to understand how to properly use the injecting features, for example, and I still don't think I properly understand how to use the 's' key for creep spread. Some of this is being a SC2 newbie in general, I know. It also wasn't until pretty deep in the thread that I realized what Alloy really was, and that it was the new hotness and to not bother with Element.
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@naxi:
1. A conflict warning I believe is normal if you have multiple templates present (though I'm not sure about those specific conflicts). It can be ignored without issue that I've seen.
2. No way to auto-flip between hotkeys. You just have to get real good and going into options and switching while your first worker is building if you're playing random...
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@daagar
Ah, too bad about the auto-switching, I guess doing it manually isn't such a big deal. Also, looks like you were right about the conflict warning, turns out the three abilities I mentioned had hotkeys, they just didn't show up in the hotkeys menu initially.
Thanks!
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[QUOTE]On May 28 2013 00:11 daagar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler + Much thanks for providing this layout. The grid layout 'clicked' for me from the start, as it is laid out similar to other games and 3D software so felt familiar, but certain things about it still irked me (mostly the use of the 'z' key). Alloy addresses that exact issue while keeping the general intuitiveness of grid so it was an instant no-brainer.
I really wanted to give TheCore a try because 200+ pages must mean something, but I use a Microsoft 'Comfort Curve 3000' keyboard which makes using the ctrl-shift combo via the thumb a bit more awkward than I think it is supposed to be (they are oversized from a normal keyboard). It also lacks the 'intuitive' factor - in the heat of the moment you can't recall an obscure command by thinking about it - you either know where it is or you don't. Sure, that would come with practice. With a grid/Alloy layout, you can make a decent guess!
Someone upthread I think asked if you're learning a new layout anyway, why wouldn't you go with TheCore right from the outset - as a new SC2 player, the above intuitiveness factor would be a big reason. As a newbie, TheCore is alien not just because of the unusal 'use the wrong side of the keyboard' factor, but because of the layout in general - it puts things in priority order. As a newbie, you most certainly have no idea about priority so the learning curve is steeper because you can't see the 'why' of certain choices until you have a deeper understanding of the game.
I only have two minor 'complaints' about Alloy:
* It is awkward to have 'Add to group' use shift-alt for Q-R, but only use shift for TAB. Same for CAPS LOCK vs. A-V. However, I don't think this is something Alloy can fix because you can't override the ALT-TAB function, for example. Unfortunate, as that has been my biggest stumbling block in adapting to Alloy.
* I'd like to see the original post updated with the latest links to the Alloy downloads (including the new cheatsheets), and the large changelog/guide that was posted on page 8. It took me a while to understand how to properly use the injecting features, for example, and I still don't think I properly understand how to use the 's' key for creep spread. Some of this is being a SC2 newbie in general, I know. It also wasn't until pretty deep in the thread that I realized what Alloy really was, and that it was the new hotness and to not bother with Element.
Hey, thanks for checking this out and even digging for info. Alloy has been something I was working on and updating off and on for a bit now, and fully incorporating it into the original thread meant re-doing the entire thing in a better way. As soon as I had a stable version of Alloy, I have been gradually adding/updating the file, and as of recently, including and updating the cheat sheets. The latest versions of Element and Alloy along with their cheat sheets are up for download, but the thread itself doesn't reflect the current state of the layouts just yet. This is all still a work in progress and is all still relatively new.
Early on I heard a lot of questions/comparisons to Fleet Keys (any version) and TheCore (still do, probably will for a while). The two layouts are designed so different on so many levels that directly comparing them leaves you wondering what exactly you're comparing to begin with. Comparing apples and oranges is a good but unfortunately cliche example. I like the ongoing development aspect of TheCore a lot, I like that there is a dedicated group of intelligent people working away at it all the time (so much progress has been in those many pages). When you made the comparison of Grid/Alloy to TheCore and mentioned the "guessing" part, you really summed up a lot about the two layouts. Prioritizing makes sense, but keeping things more simple and intuitive is important as well. I say it's important because you don't always learn in a vacuum, you don't always have time or the want to invest time in preparing/fully learning a layout before playing, and like many, do not start off with a lot of knowledge before hand. If you hopped into a game with Alloy or Element, you would only have to look at the Command Cards a few times until you started seeing the pattern, and like you said, began guessing right. It can easily click with people, give them the tools they need with some solid ideas, and send them on their way, while TheCore really trains you to play with prioritized keys and be proactive about learning every bit of the layout to squeeze the most out of the results of their data and testing. They do great work over in that thread, and I enjoy the large community aspect of it and seeing its progress. Comparing Element, or better yet, Alloy to TheCore always feels strange to me because they're so fundamentally different, and opinions can be drastically different depending on who you ask.
I'll tell you a few things that will also be in the refinished thread regarding Element and Alloy that might clear up some questions you and other may have.
Element, while not as "efficient" as Alloy, is a fantastic transitional layout. It's great for players just starting off without any game knowledge, who may only want to play at a strictly casual level with a decent layout, or more commonly, have a lack (but curiosity) of any Grid experience. Some may be happy and stay with Element, and some may like what Element offered them and they can step over to Alloy, while others go straight to Alloy (I would probably recommend that to most). There are many differences between the two, but if you're already familiar with Element, then learning Alloy feels like you're steadily trimming fat off of your game without completely flipping it upside down. From the start, I only wanted to have more options while keeping some solid amount of familiarity. 8 Camera Locations, 10 Control Groups, and other important functions along with some easy and basic keystrokes seemed like a good start. Alloy crunched it up further, and added even more perks. It is very much necessary for both to exist at this point.
To address your two complaints (many others may be wondering about this as well)--
1. Shift+Alt is used simply because it tells the player two things that Ctrl+Alt did not (which is the original way to add to Q-R). It basically says that Shift + Key is how you add to mostly everything else, Shift+Alt+Key is how you add to your hotkeys accessed with Alt+Key; it makes a lot of sense. The second reason is that you are using your ring, middle, and index fingers a lot. Ctrl+Alt+Key didn't allow many players to make continued use of these fingers, as it made you use your index finger to assign nearly all of the Q-R hotkeys, and that felt pretty bad. When using Shift+Alt+Key, you are able to use your thumb and pinky on the modifiers, while continuing on as normal with using your ring, middle and index fingers on Q-R.
2. I don't have a changelog properly documented right now, and I won't have one with the release of the redesigned thread, but I think I could put one together. Reducing the amount of info and shortening up the necessary stuff was on the top of my list when I started reworking all of this. There haven't been a ton of iterations, but I understand what you mean, and I think I could put something useful together in the future that serves as a decent changelog.
I am not sure if you've seen the new cheat sheets for download, but they contain some basic directions on how to perform Injects, including directions for the Backspace method, Mouseless Backspace method, and Camera (aka Layered) Injects. More detailed info can and will be added to the redesign, and in the end, hopefully a set of quick videos can be included to cut out all the heavy reading that the current thread is plagued with. I realize this response is becoming something just like that, but it's not mandatory to sift through like most of the OP should be. This is where the discussions go, so I'll use the space here to explain things and answer questions the best that I can. I'll end this by just saying that although you may be an SC2 newb, being proactive in other constructive ways is never a bad thing, especially if you enjoy it. Thanks again, and hopefully that post helped you and anyone else with similar concerns.
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Is the download link in the original post up to date?
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On May 28 2013 22:38 Tritone wrote:
Is the download link in the original post up to date?
Yup, any place where you see that red download link will take you to where you need to go. The top of the thread has the link that is the easiest to locate, but any that you find throughout the thread are also up to date.
When I make any big changes that people must know about I make a post regarding the update. It depends on what the issue is, but If I'm just fixing up little miss-binds here and there or anything very minor like that I just update the files and that's it. If a player notices an issue and I resolve it, I try to solve it and and post here to mention the fix.
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On May 28 2013 16:54 eneyeseekay wrote:
Hey, thanks for checking this out and even digging for info. Alloy has been something I was working on and updating off and on for a bit now, and fully incorporating it into the original thread meant re-doing the entire thing in a better way. As soon as I had a stable version of Alloy, I have been gradually adding/updating the file, and as of recently, including and updating the cheat sheets. The latest versions of Element and Alloy along with their cheat sheets are up for download, but the thread itself doesn't reflect the current state of the layouts just yet. This is all still a work in progress and is all still relatively new.
Of course! No rush. Alloy seemed fairly 'complete' as it is (since you have cheatsheets for it now), it just wasn't obvious from the first post that it was ready (and suggested). And now that I re-read the first post, I see most of this is covered in the FAQ. I must have stopped reading. Shame on me.
On May 28 2013 16:54 eneyeseekay wrote:
Comparing Element, or better yet, Alloy to TheCore always feels strange to me because they're so fundamentally different, and opinions can be drastically different depending on who you ask.
Remember though, noobs like myself want to jump in with "the best", despite there being no 'best' (or one-size-fits-all solution). Which is why I wanted to put in my 2c about why (and how!) Alloy did differ for others that were curious.
On May 28 2013 16:54 eneyeseekay wrote:
To address your two complaints (many others may be wondering about this as well)--
1. Shift+Alt is used simply because it tells the player two things that Ctrl+Alt did not (which is the original way to add to Q-R). It basically says that Shift + Key is how you add to mostly everything else, Shift+Alt+Key is how you add to your hotkeys accessed with Alt+Key; it makes a lot of sense. The second reason is that you are using your ring, middle, and index fingers a lot. Ctrl+Alt+Key didn't allow many players to make continued use of these fingers, as it made you use your index finger to assign nearly all of the Q-R hotkeys, and that felt pretty bad. When using Shift+Alt+Key, you are able to use your thumb and pinky on the modifiers, while continuing on as normal with using your ring, middle and index fingers on Q-R.
Ah, you may have misunderstood me here. I have absolutely no complaint about shift-alt - it is a very natural binding. I was merely stating that it is unfortunate that you can't use shift-alt-tab (to be consistent with shift-alt-q, shift-alt-w, etc.), and similarly for bindings that involve caps lock. This isn't anything Alloy can fix 
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On May 29 2013 12:46 daagar wrote:
Remember though, noobs like myself want to jump in with "the best", despite there being no 'best' (or one-size-fits-all solution). Which is why I wanted to put in my 2c about why (and how!) Alloy did differ for others that were curious.
If you come to any more conclusions through your experience with Fleet Keys or other layouts I'd love to hear them. If I create a feedback section with quotes from other players, it may give those without much Fleet Keys experience a better idea of what to expect without having me feed them the info directly from my mouth. Avoiding my potentially biased side of of things is what I'd like to do if possible. Impressions straight from the other players is the best way in my opinion! If it means anything, Fleet Keys is not a business for me and I have no plans of crafting a brand or anything around it. It's not a business venture where I plan to gain popularity and eventually become a caster or significant community figurehead of some sort. I just want Fleet Keys to be a solid option for players throughout SC2's lifespan. Observations and opinions such as yours helps to either weed it out or solidify its existence, so more of that will surely help paint a more accurate picture in any case. Thank you for your two cents!
Yes, it's unfortunate that Alt+Tab can't be used together. The Alt+Tab interaction issue isn't something Alloy can fix at the moment, you're right about that. Given the choice and the ability to change it, I don't think I would. Adding Queens and Hatcheries (or Nexuses and CC's) has to be deliberate but easy to do often. It can't be too deliberate but it can't be too easy either, as miss-binding something like that can be game-breaking, so that's how I feel about those commands atm (firmly in the middle). Who knows, if something comes up that's amazing and works better without throwing people off, sure I'll consider incorporating it. I don't see that coming about until Blizzard adds more options for Ctrl+ and Shift+ commands though.
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So even though there's no "left handed" version of this setup, I'm gonna try out Alloy for Zerg with some modifications. I'm switching around the attack/patrol/stop/move commands, adding a "return resources" key for drones, switching spacebar to select idle workers and switching tilde to base camera. Standard for lefties sucks and on a Mac I can't eve get the function keys to work properly (even if I select "allow accessibility" or whatever in system preferences). So I'm really excited to switching to a layout that works better for lefties and has useable camera locations!
Thanks for your hard work, eneyeseekay.
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On May 30 2013 12:18 Tritone wrote:
So even though there's no "left handed" version of this setup, I'm gonna try out Alloy for Zerg with some modifications. I'm switching around the attack/patrol/stop/move commands, adding a "return resources" key for drones, switching spacebar to select idle workers and switching tilde to base camera. Standard for lefties sucks and on a Mac I can't eve get the function keys to work properly (even if I select "allow accessibility" or whatever in system preferences). So I'm really excited to switching to a layout that works better for lefties and has useable camera locations!
Thanks for your hard work, eneyeseekay.
If you're using Zerg, then Space Bar as Base Camera is the money spot. The Mouseless Backspace method and the regular Backspace method play quite heavily off of Space Bar's use.
I should probably ask why you would want to use return resource. Are there common situations where you use it? My guess would be post-harass management, after a split or something.
How do your Attack, etc. commands look like now? Have you tried using 1E, 2E, 3E? I find it to feel extremely smooth and quick, especially when controlling 3 or more army groups. If Control Group 1 was on " ` ", CG 2 on "1", CG3 on "2", and CG4 on "3",, then "W" would make for a great binding for attacking with multiple CG's. What prompted the changes? Was it due to pre-existing preferences? Or just bad locations in the layout for you?
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On May 30 2013 17:52 eneyeseekay wrote:
If you're using Zerg, then Space Bar as Base Camera is the money spot. The Mouseless Backspace method and the regular Backspace method play quite heavily off of Space Bar's use.
I should probably ask why you would want to use return resource. Are there common situations where you use it? My guess would be post-harass management, after a split or something.
How do your Attack, etc. commands look like now? Have you tried using 1E, 2E, 3E? I find it to feel extremely smooth and quick, especially when controlling 3 or more army groups. If Control Group 1 was on " ` ", CG 2 on "1", CG3 on "2", and CG4 on "3",, then "W" would make for a great binding for attacking with multiple CG's. What prompted the changes? Was it due to pre-existing preferences? Or just bad locations in the layout for you?
So I decided not to change most of the attack buttons and stuff, but I *did* switch tilde and space bar, because as a lefty, hitting shift + S + space bar is really awkward, and shift + S + tilde is a lot easier.
But I am having one annoying problem with caps lock. Doing stuff with the caps lock control group only works when the button is going from "not caps locked" to "caps locked"; if my little green indicator light is on, hitting caps lock does nothing. Anyone else had this problem? Any ideas? I'm running OS X 10.8.3 and using a Razer Black Widow keyboard.
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@Tritone
Hey, if the tilde switch feels better as a lefty, then by all means. If it feels better and it doesn't de-rail your layout then change it I say. If you ever decide to use the Camera (Layered Injects) method instead of the Backspace method, would you feel the need to make adjustments for that? Right now the keystrokes look like: Caps Lock, S, Shift(Hold)+Alt, A,S,D,F,Z,X C,V (clicking between each camera). The first half of it looks like a lot, but Caps Lock, S is done nearly simultaneously, and Shift(hold)+Alt is actually done simultaneously, so it isn't as slow as the keystrokes look, especially once you're used to it.
With the Backspace method, you can also cut out the use of Shift entirely by clicking between each base. It would look like (in default Alloy): Caps Lock, S+Space Bar, Click. S+Space Bar,Click again for each additional Hatchery. Much of this is also done with simultaneous keystrokes so it's fast. The only downside is that there is a rhythm to it; you must be on point when hitting that Click between the S+Space Bar step. This method cuts down on needing Shift, which I think speeds things up a bit, but like I said, there's some skill/practice involved. Not using Shift in this scenario also helps when you're susceptible to wandering Queens, as you'll only wind up with one Queen at the most if you make a mistake because you aren't Shift-queuing the Spawn Larva ability. The entire wandering issue is solved completely though by pressing W (Hold Position in default Alloy) after each cycle. It's very close to S on the keyboard, so it's easy to press at the end of a cycle.
The issue of the toggling Mac Caps Lock has come up before, but I don't think there was a solid solution found. I did do some looking around, and a potential fix might be to re-map Caps Lock similarly to the way Sharpkeys re-maps Windows keys. Given the choice, I personally wouldn't opt for playing games on a Mac, but I would still like to help find a solution to this since Mac users are in fact out there and want to play unhindered. Here are a couple links that might help, but I can't be entirely sure that it will remedy the problem as I'm not overly familiar with Mac (only used them for digital imaging/video editing programs in the past).
http://www.osxlatitude.com/remapping-keys-in-osx/
http://lifehacker.com/5882684/the-best-keyboard-remapper-for-mac-os-x
I hope something can be done about this, as Caps Lock is a great key to have at your disposal. If you're able to use a QWERTY or other type of PC keyboard with your Mac then perhaps that might make it easier? I'm not sure how Caps Lock would behave if used this way, but it might be worth a try.
Does anyone out there know of a solid fix for this?
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On May 31 2013 03:45 eneyeseekay wrote:
If you're able to use a QWERTY or other type of PC keyboard with your Mac then perhaps that might make it easier? I'm not sure how Caps Lock would behave if used this way, but it might be worth a try.
I use a Razer Black Widow keyboard.
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5 games into using Alloy after playing slightly modified standard since launch, I'm having quite a tough time but I can already see the potential benefit here. I keep forgetting that I need to use the Alt key, so that's a problem on my part.
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On May 31 2013 09:34 yakitate304 wrote:
5 games into using Alloy after playing slightly modified standard since launch, I'm having quite a tough time but I can already see the potential benefit here. I keep forgetting that I need to use the Alt key, so that's a problem on my part.
That's great! Is the difficulty mostly due to the fact that you're going from Standard to Alloy's version of an optimized Grid? If you want to get a better feel for using the Q-V keys (or any other keys for that matter), I'd suggest hopping into a custom game and doing some simple drills.
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On May 31 2013 03:45 eneyeseekay wrote:The issue of the toggling Mac Caps Lock has come up before, but I don't think there was a solid solution found.
[...]
Does anyone out there know of a solid fix for this?
OK, I found a pretty simple solution. An app called PCKeyboardHack (and yes, despite the name, it works for OS X) can switch your capslock with backspace. It's working perfectly for me.
https://pqrs.org/macosx/keyremap4macbook/pckeyboardhack.html.en
Hooray!
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I never noticed this before, but why is Move bound to R? It's completely redundant because it actually takes one more action than simply right-clicking. It should be replaced with Stop, which is not redundant because Hold Position is much different; Stop cancels all other commands instead.
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I've recently switched from Standard hotkeysetup to Element QWERTY Zerg. Really enjoying it so far. Thanks for putting the time into this.
I have encountered one problem that eludes me. For the rapidfire key for Element, its 'X'. I cannot get this to work at all. If I switch to Alloy, the rapidfire key 'S' works flawlessly. I checked the mapped hotkey under unit management for Element and it's set the same way as the Alloy version. I don't know what the problem is and could not find anybody reporting this problem in this thread. Any good guesses on what the problem is for the Element QWERTY version?
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On June 01 2013 11:43 Antylamon wrote:
I never noticed this before, but why is Move bound to R? It's completely redundant because it actually takes one more action than simply right-clicking. It should be replaced with Stop, which is not redundant because Hold Position is much different; Stop cancels all other commands instead.
It's not bound to R per se, but Element uses Grid, and move is R in grid, you can't change individual keys.
I highly recommend Alloy. I found it easier to grow accustomed to coming from standard hotkeys.
I thoroughly enjoy Alloy in fact. It has improved my mechanics a ton! Now if only my strategy could catch up....
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found a solution to the rapid fire key. Apparently have to press shift before holding 'X' key. The grid profile doesn't let you get into the Zerg unit hotkeys, So that sucks to since creep tumor is bounded to A and S in Alloy.
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On May 31 2013 14:29 eneyeseekay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 09:34 yakitate304 wrote:
5 games into using Alloy after playing slightly modified standard since launch, I'm having quite a tough time but I can already see the potential benefit here. I keep forgetting that I need to use the Alt key, so that's a problem on my part. That's great! Is the difficulty mostly due to the fact that you're going from Standard to Alloy's version of an optimized Grid? If you want to get a better feel for using the Q-V keys (or any other keys for that matter), I'd suggest hopping into a custom game and doing some simple drills.
I've just been playing unranked games and practicing with my Clarity Gaming Community Team teammates. I've played about 15-20 games and my spending is pretty bad so far, but I'm getting more comfortable making buildings and units. Just need to get used to using the camera keys more, since I didn't utilize them very much when I played standard with F1-F4 cameras. I really like Alloy (moreso than Element), I'm just still clunky with it.
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EPT
