EPT[G] Fleet Keys - Refined Hotkey Systems - Page 11
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
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P4tchz3rg
Korea (North)11 Posts
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
"C" and "V" have been my Proxy Pylon hotkeys, with ASDFZX being bases 1-6. Alt + Middle Mouse also took a while to get used to but now it feels perfect, since I am usually warping in directly after hitting a camera key. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
I'll just use the default one and force switch my keyboard to qwerty for now. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
Long story short: A steady stream of personal issues kept burying my progress on this for a while. This demanded a lot of necessary time and attention, and as a result, took a lot of wind out of my sails. Everything's mostly fine now, so let's get this on the go! Needless to say, I have some catching up to do with all of you guys, and I'll go through what I missed or didn't address in the last couple weeks. I did respond to a few question through PM's/emails I received, so if anyone sent me one, check your inboxes now. @icww + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2013 12:02 icww wrote: I've recently switched from Standard hotkeysetup to Element QWERTY Zerg. Really enjoying it so far. Thanks for putting the time into this. I have encountered one problem that eludes me. For the rapidfire key for Element, its 'X'. I cannot get this to work at all. If I switch to Alloy, the rapidfire key 'S' works flawlessly. I checked the mapped hotkey under unit management for Element and it's set the same way as the Alloy version. I don't know what the problem is and could not find anybody reporting this problem in this thread. Any good guesses on what the problem is for the Element QWERTY version? You're welcome! I hope Element works out well for you. If you want to improve on what Element offers, I would suggest making the leap to Alloy at some point though. So Rapidfire Ability key in QWERTY Element is bound to S? Did I read that right? I haven't heard anybody else bringing that up, but I will definitely look into it. It most definitely should be on X, as it fits with the Grid template. @Antylamon + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2013 11:43 Antylamon wrote: I never noticed this before, but why is Move bound to R? It's completely redundant because it actually takes one more action than simply right-clicking. It should be replaced with Stop, which is not redundant because Hold Position is much different; Stop cancels all other commands instead. Yes I found that Move is fairly redundant, but I want to wait to see if players really do miss the use of Stop before making those changes. I realize that Stop and Hold Position are different commands, but you stand to lose out when it comes to damage in the event of issuing Stops (accidental or not). There are so few instances where Stop is really necessary. Dealing damage while holding your position is always better than standing still and not responding right? For the Move binding, there is a method behind this madness. In situations where you want to Move units into an engagement that is a very busy area, such as moving Lings up on a sizable or split bio force for a surround, or when magic boxing Mutas, you run the risk of right-clicking an enemy when attempting to Move-command around. This can cause game-ending clumping and unintended focused attacks. Keeping Move on R is a decision made for uninterrupted maneuverability for nearly any situation that doesn't involve terrain blockage or Forcefields. You are correct in that Right Clicking can work most of the time. @yakitate304 + Show Spoiler + On June 02 2013 10:38 yakitate304 wrote: I've just been playing unranked games and practicing with my Clarity Gaming Community Team teammates. I've played about 15-20 games and my spending is pretty bad so far, but I'm getting more comfortable making buildings and units. Just need to get used to using the camera keys more, since I didn't utilize them very much when I played standard with F1-F4 cameras. I really like Alloy (moreso than Element), I'm just still clunky with it.  Hey, being clunky is expected when learning a new layout. I noticed you made a couple more posts since your first, so I'll address those below. ____________________________________________________ On June 10 2013 01:54 yakitate304 wrote: So it's been about a week and a half since I started using Fleet Keys Alloy as Zerg, and I'm pretty much 100% used to them by now. I still forget some of the grid keys for making less used buildings (ie. Nydus) and have lost a few games where I went Evolution Chamber instead of Spawning Pool (still somewhat used to "S" making the pool rather than "A"), but altogether I'm loving the key setup. I'm using cameras much more than I used to with my mostly standard hotkey setup (with cameras on F1-F8) and my injects are a lot better. It's awesome to hear that you've adjusted quickly! What made you decide to use the F1-F8 keys for Camera Locations? Is it a matter of preference or do you see a fatal flaw in the A/F and Z/V Camera Location bindings? Using the F1-F8 keys for cameras basically cuts off your ability to perform Camera Injects (aka Layered Injects). It can be a useful Inject method .____________________________________________________ On June 18 2013 17:06 yakitate304 wrote: Another update from me... I just switched the Protoss a few days ago (after 3 years of Zerg) and the transition has been very smooth in terms of my hands. The Caps Lock and Spacebar being different than Zerg's Alloy is different but overall, I love the setup. "C" and "V" have been my Proxy Pylon hotkeys, with ASDFZX being bases 1-6. Alt + Middle Mouse also took a while to get used to but now it feels perfect, since I am usually warping in directly after hitting a camera key. Thanks for the updates, it's always good to know the progress of the people who decide to use this layout. So you switched to Protoss, and now you're using the A/F, Z/V Camera Locations? What happened there? You were using the F1-F8 keys before weren't you? @PoP + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2013 08:51 PoP wrote: I'm really really interested in this layout but the AZERTY (damn french keyboards...) one seems broken. Control groups are bound to qwerty keys at the very least, and not sure all the other ones are correct either. I'll just use the default one and force switch my keyboard to qwerty for now. That's uhh... not good. I will be looking into this shortly. QWERTY and AZERTY are most definitely not the same thing, haha. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
As always, send any comments, suggestions or concerns to:
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JoKeRx
United States4 Posts
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On June 21 2013 05:26 JoKeRx wrote: i think you need to fix the links, they are not working for me All fixed now. I just had to replace the links I was using while editing the thread. Everyone has access to them now, thanks for the heads up. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
- pinky on `, tab, caps lock, shift and ctrl, - ring on 1, Q, - middle on 2, W - index on 3, E, R... - thumb on Alt, Space First question, is it the expected placement, at least for the keys I specified? Or is it OK, at the very least? Secondly, which fingers am I supposed to use for abilities (A through F) ? These keys seem pretty hard to get to with that hand placement at least (unless I release control group fingers). I feel like having them mapped to, like, X/C/V/B would make more sense as I could use my thumb (which I also use on space bar for primary action anyway). eneyeseekay, what do you think? | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On June 22 2013 03:54 PoP wrote: + Show Spoiler + So my finger placement right now is (Allow, Terran player): - pinky on `, tab, caps lock, shift and ctrl, - ring on 1, Q, - middle on 2, W - index on 3, E, R... - thumb on Alt, Space First question, is it the expected placement, at least for the keys I specified? Or is it OK, at the very least? Secondly, which fingers am I supposed to use for abilities (A through F) ? These keys seem pretty hard to get to with that hand placement at least (unless I release control group fingers). I feel like having them mapped to, like, X/C/V/B would make more sense as I could use my thumb (which I also use on space bar for primary action anyway). eneyeseekay, what do you think? Yup, your finger placement sounds about right. Here's how I'd list it:
To answer your question about A-F: Yes, somewhat. If you want to use spells/abilities without taking advantage of the Smart Key, you would be expected to use A-F. You'll rarely ever find yourself using F or G though, as most spells/abilities and production commands fall on A,S,D and Q,W,E,R. If you're comfortable in using Z,X,C,V with your thumb, then by all means go for it, just watch out that you don't accidentally hit Space Bar and Alt! Do note that: With the Terran & Protoss layout, you have the option to use Space Bar (the Smart Key) for most of your common/favorite abilities and commands. Check out the cheat sheet for most of the default Smart Key bindings (located on the far right). This aims to eliminate movement/reaching you don't want to do or are simply not comfortable in performing. This is a way to let your fingers do their thing during macroing and microing, while letting your thumb take on some of the burden that would normally require you to reach 1 or 2 keys away from where you want to be during those times. Although this may seem like a newb-friendly feature, it gives players a lot more control over what the layout can do for them, and in the end, preference and comfort is everything. The Smart Key is just one more option to take advantage of, and the fact that it is a alternating keystroke in nearly all situations means it's always going to be quicker to use. Here's what I think: SC2 has a world of improvements over BW when it comes to hotkey options, but the controls this time around are plentiful and a lot more expansive, so you will be forced to reach somewhere at some point when using only hotkeys. Take a look at any hotkey layout out there, and you'll find that they all contain keys that are spread across 5 adjacent keys, on one or more horizontal levels, all the while not even including modifiers. This will always force some amount of reaching unfortunately. Any layout condensed like this is layered in some way through modifiers too. 10 Control Groups, 8 Camera Locations, that's 18 keys, which is 3 keys over the 15 you have in a "comfy" 5x3 Grid. We didn't even take into account Unit Commands, spells/abilities, and modifiers yet. You quickly begin to run out of comfortably-accessible keyboard space, especially with only 3-4 dexterous digits operating at any given time. If you compare Alloy's hotkey arrangement against Standard, you'll see that there are a lot of instances where you must hop over multiple keys to issue commands. If you include the usage of the F1-F8 keys, this takes jumping around your keyboard to a whole new level. People don't even regularly use those keys when typing, let alone in a game where how fast you can do things matters quite a bit! Edit: I think I'll include the "Do note that:" text in the Additional Info section of the OP. I'll be taking a look at that AZERTY issue you posted tonight. Gotta see what's up with that.. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
Seems promising layout for a lazy f^%$#r like me | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
Actually, that "pinky on tab if comfortable" part of your example made me reconsider my hand position a bit. I feel like ring on tab does feel a tad more comfortable, esp at the beginning when spamming it a bit to warm up (and I'd rather not change fingers in the middle of a game). I have to use the same finger for group 1 and CC then, but it's okay, keys are right next to each other. It kinda makes my hand feel a bit more mobile which is not bad. Might reconsider this again, but for now I like the minor change. I agree on the part about having to jump around a bit at some point, and I have no problem with it. I also agree about the risk of hitting spacebar when using bottom row letter keys, so it's probably not that good an idea. However, I still believe A in general is too hard to get to compared to other keys (and is still needed, for example for ghost snipes). I'd rather have the abilities go S => G than A => F (in short, skip the first key of the row, same for bottom one when applicable). Then thumb can be used for all of them. I'd even go as far as to suggest D => H (as you said, H would almost never be needed anyway, and D and F are the most comfortable keys for the thumb with this layout I feel). edit: I can use ring finger on A without any problem when building or using main camera location, what I'm saying is the jump can be a little awkward from an actual control group during a fight (for abilities such as snipe or autoturrets). I just feel like D and F are right under the thumb and should have more purpose maybe. Well, maybe I have big hands or something, but this is the only thing I would change to this great layout. I've been liking everything else so far. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On June 22 2013 07:18 govie wrote: DL-ed and gonna test it, dunno how it works tho. Im lazy and dont like to move even my hand. I like the 1 spacebar for all actions button thats smart Seems promising layout for a lazy f^%$#r like me Hahaha.. Yeah it does a pretty good job of keeping your hand from jumping all over the place. Most of the reaching will be up and down movements, so it's not so bad. Like I said to PoP though, there will be some instances of you reaching to R and T sometimes (almost never T), but it's not like the keys are scattered all over the place. I hope you find some use of it! It's cool to hear that the Smart Key is actually useful, it's a feature that nobody really asks or wonders about. | ||
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
On June 21 2013 04:08 eneyeseekay wrote: All right. I'm back, and I'm ready to deploy the new thread. 30k views is pretty damn cool! Long story short: A steady stream of personal issues kept burying my progress on this for a while. This demanded a lot of necessary time and attention, and as a result, took a lot of wind out of my sails. Everything's mostly fine now, so let's get this on the go! Needless to say, I have some catching up to do with all of you guys, and I'll go through what I missed or didn't address in the last couple weeks. I did respond to a few question through PM's/emails I received, so if anyone sent me one, check your inboxes now. @icww + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2013 12:02 icww wrote: I've recently switched from Standard hotkeysetup to Element QWERTY Zerg. Really enjoying it so far. Thanks for putting the time into this. I have encountered one problem that eludes me. For the rapidfire key for Element, its 'X'. I cannot get this to work at all. If I switch to Alloy, the rapidfire key 'S' works flawlessly. I checked the mapped hotkey under unit management for Element and it's set the same way as the Alloy version. I don't know what the problem is and could not find anybody reporting this problem in this thread. Any good guesses on what the problem is for the Element QWERTY version? You're welcome! I hope Element works out well for you. If you want to improve on what Element offers, I would suggest making the leap to Alloy at some point though. So Rapidfire Ability key in QWERTY Element is bound to S? Did I read that right? I haven't heard anybody else bringing that up, but I will definitely look into it. It most definitely should be on X, as it fits with the Grid template. @Antylamon + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2013 11:43 Antylamon wrote: I never noticed this before, but why is Move bound to R? It's completely redundant because it actually takes one more action than simply right-clicking. It should be replaced with Stop, which is not redundant because Hold Position is much different; Stop cancels all other commands instead. Yes I found that Move is fairly redundant, but I want to wait to see if players really do miss the use of Stop before making those changes. I realize that Stop and Hold Position are different commands, but you stand to lose out when it comes to damage in the event of issuing Stops (accidental or not). There are so few instances where Stop is really necessary. Dealing damage while holding your position is always better than standing still and not responding right? For the Move binding, there is a method behind this madness. In situations where you want to Move units into an engagement that is a very busy area, such as moving Lings up on a sizable or split bio force for a surround, or when magic boxing Mutas, you run the risk of right-clicking an enemy when attempting to Move-command around. This can cause game-ending clumping and unintended focused attacks. Keeping Move on R is a decision made for uninterrupted maneuverability for nearly any situation that doesn't involve terrain blockage or Forcefields. You are correct in that Right Clicking can work most of the time. @yakitate304 + Show Spoiler + On June 02 2013 10:38 yakitate304 wrote: I've just been playing unranked games and practicing with my Clarity Gaming Community Team teammates. I've played about 15-20 games and my spending is pretty bad so far, but I'm getting more comfortable making buildings and units. Just need to get used to using the camera keys more, since I didn't utilize them very much when I played standard with F1-F4 cameras. I really like Alloy (moreso than Element), I'm just still clunky with it. Hey, being clunky is expected when learning a new layout. I noticed you made a couple more posts since your first, so I'll address those below. ____________________________________________________ On June 10 2013 01:54 yakitate304 wrote: So it's been about a week and a half since I started using Fleet Keys Alloy as Zerg, and I'm pretty much 100% used to them by now. I still forget some of the grid keys for making less used buildings (ie. Nydus) and have lost a few games where I went Evolution Chamber instead of Spawning Pool (still somewhat used to "S" making the pool rather than "A"), but altogether I'm loving the key setup. I'm using cameras much more than I used to with my mostly standard hotkey setup (with cameras on F1-F8) and my injects are a lot better. It's awesome to hear that you've adjusted quickly! What made you decide to use the F1-F8 keys for Camera Locations? Is it a matter of preference or do you see a fatal flaw in the A/F and Z/V Camera Location bindings? Using the F1-F8 keys for cameras basically cuts off your ability to perform Camera Injects (aka Layered Injects). It can be a useful Inject method .____________________________________________________ On June 18 2013 17:06 yakitate304 wrote: Another update from me... I just switched the Protoss a few days ago (after 3 years of Zerg) and the transition has been very smooth in terms of my hands. The Caps Lock and Spacebar being different than Zerg's Alloy is different but overall, I love the setup. "C" and "V" have been my Proxy Pylon hotkeys, with ASDFZX being bases 1-6. Alt + Middle Mouse also took a while to get used to but now it feels perfect, since I am usually warping in directly after hitting a camera key. Thanks for the updates, it's always good to know the progress of the people who decide to use this layout. So you switched to Protoss, and now you're using the A/F, Z/V Camera Locations? What happened there? You were using the F1-F8 keys before weren't you? @PoP + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2013 08:51 PoP wrote: I'm really really interested in this layout but the AZERTY (damn french keyboards...) one seems broken. Control groups are bound to qwerty keys at the very least, and not sure all the other ones are correct either. I'll just use the default one and force switch my keyboard to qwerty for now. That's uhh... not good. I will be looking into this shortly. QWERTY and AZERTY are most definitely not the same thing, haha. What I meant is that for the past 3 years, I've been playing standard and I have had F1-F8 bound as cameras but rarely ever used them. Now that I'm using Fleet Keys I'm using ASDF ZXCV and relying a lot on my cameras which makes a huge difference. In particular, now that I've switched to Protoss, it's huge to be able to immediately jump to my forward pylons. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On June 22 2013 09:31 eneyeseekay wrote: Hahaha.. Yeah it does a pretty good job of keeping your hand from jumping all over the place. Most of the reaching will be up and down movements, so it's not so bad. Like I said to PoP though, there will be some instances of you reaching to R and T sometimes (almost never T), but it's not like the keys are scattered all over the place. I hope you find some use of it! It's cool to hear that the Smart Key is actually useful, it's a feature that nobody really asks or wonders about. I like the idea because my thumb doesnt do anything at the moment. It gives me 1 second more to do something else in battle. Also, u can costimize it to your builds. So, for example : Mass raven HSM execution could be easier and maybe faster even. Ghost micro, Dont have to move my hand, it will give me an edge over templar of 0.5 second orso. etcetcetc. Havent tested it yet, but it could help me i hope | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
Remarks 1. Doubletap space builds supplydepot. This is really nice, i can use my thumb more; 2. I like that stim etc is on space. I dont have to look what key im pressing to enable certain abilities and use my thumb too; 3. Having cc, rax, fact. and port on : alt+hotkey takes some getting used to but,but,but.... it eliminates the usage of key 6,7,8 etc on keyboard (i allways hated that). So it could be worth it. Ill have to see how long it takes for me too get used too it. 4. The abilities buttons are 1 row higher which is much more pleasant. Questions 1. What does rapidfirekey "S"do exactly when i play terran. Or what and how do i utilize it? 2. Select warpgates is alt+middlemouse button. Does this also count for terran rax? I like it so far. Deserves more testing and getting used too | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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AlAlkemist
3 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On June 22 2013 07:29 PoP wrote: I do like space and try to use it for everything it's bound to. I might reassign a few of them, like raven (I feel like PDD would be more beneficial for me than seeker missile for instance), but that's it. That's the beauty of it! If you don't like what the default bindings offer then it's completely up to you as to what abilities are tied to it. I often thought of PDD being on it by default tbh. Such a useful ability.. Actually, that "pinky on tab if comfortable" part of your example made me reconsider my hand position a bit. I feel like ring on tab does feel a tad more comfortable, esp at the beginning when spamming it a bit to warm up (and I'd rather not change fingers in the middle of a game). I have to use the same finger for group 1 and CC then, but it's okay, keys are right next to each other. It kinda makes my hand feel a bit more mobile which is not bad. Might reconsider this again, but for now I like the minor change. For sure. I actually hop all over the place within Alloy's confines. Spamming Alt+Q,W,E,R when Queens are building/Injects are taking effect, flicking through 1,2,3,4 all the time.. I'm not afraid to shift over 1 key to touch on a key, as I'm only managing 3 fingers for the most part. It's funny though, 99% of the time I'm using my ring finger for Tab, and my pinky for the modifiers and Caps Lock. I have the least functional pinky of anyone I know (I think it was broken at a young age and didn't heal right or something, idk). I agree on the part about having to jump around a bit at some point, and I have no problem with it. I also agree about the risk of hitting spacebar when using bottom row letter keys, so it's probably not that good an idea. However, I still believe A in general is too hard to get to compared to other keys (and is still needed, for example for ghost snipes). I'd rather have the abilities go S => G than A => F (in short, skip the first key of the row, same for bottom one when applicable). Then thumb can be used for all of them. I'd even go as far as to suggest D => H (as you said, H would almost never be needed anyway, and D and F are the most comfortable keys for the thumb with this layout I feel). You could always try out shifting them over 1 key if you think it'll work for you. I have fairly large hands myself, and I reallllly don't like having to hit anything on the bottom row; Alloy is basically a product of that. | ||
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