EPTI'd like to thank you for this great keyboard layout and all the work you put into it! I am a fairly new StarCraft 2 player (infact, I'm only a few weeks in so far). Learning the hotkeys, I found it kinda awkward that I had to move my whole hand around to use half of the control groups (6-0). So I tried FleetKeys (Alloy) and after only a few games, I was certain to keep it. It's easy to learn and feels alot more optimized than the default Grid layout. Just awesome! =)
[G] Fleet Keys - Refined Hotkey Systems - Page 14
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Luzzifus
Germany4 Posts
I'd like to thank you for this great keyboard layout and all the work you put into it! I am a fairly new StarCraft 2 player (infact, I'm only a few weeks in so far). Learning the hotkeys, I found it kinda awkward that I had to move my whole hand around to use half of the control groups (6-0). So I tried FleetKeys (Alloy) and after only a few games, I was certain to keep it. It's easy to learn and feels alot more optimized than the default Grid layout. Just awesome! =) | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
If you're up for it, please feel free to apply those slight changes I proposed in my last post and see how they are. The more feedback the better! | ||
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Luzzifus
Germany4 Posts
Concerning your proposed changes, I'm not totally sure if I can really contribute with the little experience I have so far, but I'll try! The double W tapping idea to put queens on hold sounds good and intuitive to me. I'll definitely try that! I have to admit that I never used the center on selection command yet, but for me personally, the middle mouse button always feels a little awkward to press. Not just in the game, but more or less anywhere. Maybe because it's mostly pressing down the wheel which I'm trying to do super slowly and precisely to not turn it up or down at the same time. So if I had to use that command frequently, I'd rather bind it to one of my side mouse buttons instead. But I do understand you cannot assume that everybody has those buttons available. Using ctrl instead of shift sounds good to me though. **edit: I also found a pretty easy way to disable CapsLock from switching between upper- and lowercase, and that is a simple AutoHotkey script (I've read it is allowed to use it as far as one obeys the one-key-one-action-rule, correct me if I'm wrong): + Show Spoiler + $*CapsLock:: Send {CapsLock} SetCapsLockState Off Return This will simply set the CapsLock state to "off" everytime you press it, so no more accidental yelling at other nice people. =) It also works if you press any modifier keys simultaneously (like shift + caps to add to Queens group). | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
Hey you can totally contribute given your experience. I'm trying to filter out layout issues with these little refinements like undesirable and accidental commands caused directly by the layout's bindings. Shift+MMB as Center on Current Selection was becoming a big problem because people are beginning to ramp up their Drag Scroll ability; the Shift+MMB was too easy to activate during multitasking. I'm also trying to give players more reliable options for circumventing things that can't be worked out because of the way the game itself behaves in common scenarios. A shining example is the wandering Queens problem. Getting rid of this issue completely is made even more difficult by the fact that the unit Command Cards are stripped of abilities during targeting. I see this W binding as one more option to by-pass this and I feel like it's a huge improvement for Zerg play (and it's an extremely safe was as well)! Drag Scroll: If you don't plan on using tabbed production and you have side buttons, then they can be fine alternatives for Drag Scrolling. I actually experimented with Alt by itself as the Drag Scroll key, and it felt pretty insane (in both good and bad ways, needless to say it wasn't a great place for it). I also think Ctrl would not end up working well either (although I haven't tested it), as one single key miss could overwrite any of your Control Groups and Cameras. For the default settings of Fleet keys overall, I settled on MMB mainly because it lightens the load on your keyboard hand, it's safe, it allows you to produce units from your structures while using it, and MMB is a common mouse feature that Starcraft 2 is not hard-coded to in any way. There is however coding that restricts the use of scroll wheel bindings. Like I said though, side buttons can be fine alternatives. Regarding your edit: Are you running SC2 on a Mac? I've heard of issues involving the Caps Lock key (it basically toggles on and off). A script to fix this is fine if you have no other way around it, but on PC these scripts aren't (shouldn't be) required use these layouts. I doubt they would ask you to use a Mac at a LAN event anyway, so I think you'll be safe. | ||
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Luzzifus
Germany4 Posts
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
New Bindings
Other Changes
Thanks to everyone who tried out the bindings and gave feedback, it's much appreciated! As always, if something is broken, don't hesitate to report it! | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
I've also switched one or two space bar commands (like PDD for raven) and changed CTRL to be the "add to group" command but only for buildings (letter groups) as adding production ones is something you do ten thousand times more than rebinding them, while I rebind units a lot. So far so good, I'm starting to use camera locations more and more (which I never did before). Using alt for production (actually, having to release it to actually produce units) is a bit awkward still, but it's slowly starting to become natural. I'm finding myself macroing a lot better than before during fights (then again my hotkeys were so unoptimal before that it's not a surprise). Will soon try the AZERTY one, thanks for the update! | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
Hey there! Ctrl+Q,W,E,R always felt nice to me too. The main thing that worries me the most about it is Q-R being in a really central location of the layout. It's surrounded by bindings that are created with Ctrl+, so one miss when adding to Q-R with Ctrl+ will surely create/overwrite unwanted Unit Groups and Camera Locations. Shift+Alt+Q-R is a command that does have potential overlap with 1-6, but not Camera Locations. It also leaves your thumb ready for Alt+ selections across Q-R immediately after adding because you're still holding Alt. I know it isn't as fluid as Ctrl+ in terms of raw keystrokes, what with the built-in "select all on screen" command, but Shift+Alt+Q-R is 100% safer when it comes to not accidentally overwriting Camera Locations. @All I'm actually really torn on this tbh. On one hand, it's definitely an improvement for adding to your structure groups, but on the other hand, it's more risky for anyone who doesn't have really accurate keystrokes. A nice thing about using Ctrl+ to add to Q-R is that it feels a lot like using Shift+ to add to the 1-6 Control Groups which is a nice subtle point that helps make it a bit more intuitive, so it can work comfortably for the most part as far as "the feel" of it goes. Does anybody have anything to add to this? If so, please do! | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
Yeah I'm looking at that now.. I don't normally mind admitting a mistake, but I honestly have no idea what this is all about. Apostrophe is verrrry far away from the Grave/Tilde key. It seems that both Element and Alloy AZERTY layouts have this strange miss-binding. Since I created these on a QWERTY keyboard, Apostrophe lands on the total opposite end of the keyboard. Strannnge.. Thanks a bunch for pointing this out  .I'm going to fix this up right now, and then release a tester file of HotS Alloy for Protoss & Terran (in all 3 keyboard types). I'm choosing T&P because their production applies to the whole Ctrl+Q-R for appending to Control Groups the most. It also saves me a ton of time in the short term, so yeah.. Updates with incoming shortly! | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/KB_France.svg http://www.fenarinarsa.com/blog/keyboard_azerty.jpg Is it considered an Apostrophe?  | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On July 06 2013 06:31 eneyeseekay wrote: Can anyone tell me what the key next to 1 (left of 1) is on these keyboards? Like what does it produce when pressed in-game? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/KB_France.svg http://www.fenarinarsa.com/blog/keyboard_azerty.jpg Is it considered an Apostrophe? Apparently, "Apostrophe" in the hotkey file does refer to that key (which produces a ², btw). For some reason. It is bound to medivac heal in the version you posted. I wish we french could use an qwerty keyboard like everyone else in the world... (The only reason I'm not switching is because I work at a company where all my colleagues have azerty :/) | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On July 06 2013 07:03 PoP wrote: Apparently, "Apostrophe" in the hotkey file does refer to that key (which produces a ², btw). For some reason. It is bound to medivac heal in the version you posted. I wish we french could use an qwerty keyboard like everyone else in the world... (The only reason I'm not switching is because I work at a company where all my colleagues have azerty :/) PHEW!  I got through about half of the files until I started doubting myself on the whole ' and ` thing. It's a good thing I stopped before I finished therm. It's also good thing I keep backups.. Thanks PoP! I'll check out that Medivac binding now. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
One question. I really like having a standout camera for rallies and such. I'm looking mainly at the space bar button for a potential cam for rallies and whatever spot I want to keep an eye at. If you've already got all your spell locations memorized and can execute everything without it, is there any reason at all to keep spacebar around for commands? I'm really tempted. Maybe I could just get used to using Z or something as a rally cam. Anyone think about something like this? I've got shift engrained as add, and control as set, no way I could have them be intertwined. | ||
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
I don't see the point when clearly the keyboard layout is not the thing that limits any player. Sorry for the rudeness, but i've seen a myriad of hotkey layout threads and I wanted to know the reasoning behind them. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On July 06 2013 08:16 Gool wrote: Don't mean to be rude but, is any high tier korean/european pro using a setup like this ? I don't see the point when clearly the keyboard layout is not the thing that limits any player. Sorry for the rudeness, but i've seen a myriad of hotkey layout threads and I wanted to know the reasoning behind them. Pro's practice so much changing to a new hotkey setup would completely screw them up. This is just impossible for people who have tournies and matches every week. It helps reduce strain (think of how many injuries could have been avoided). It also helps efficiency. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On July 06 2013 08:16 Gool wrote: Don't mean to be rude but, is any high tier korean/european pro using a setup like this ? I don't see the point when clearly the keyboard layout is not the thing that limits any player. Sorry for the rudeness, but i've seen a myriad of hotkey layout threads and I wanted to know the reasoning behind them. There are no pros that I know of. I often wonder the same thing though. As for the reasoning behind them, I think most people who decide to take on projects like this start by looking at Standard or Grid on their own, and then think "Well what if I changed this? And then this? Ok, this feels better.", and then eventually they just re-map the layout based on what works for them. Before you know it, there's a thread featuring the layout and other players want to try it out as well. I personally find that process really fun. I love tinkering around with the hotkeys and working with people on them. Some people like commentating, playing, coaching, producing content (media/sorftware/etc), spectating, or simply interacting with other fans in stream chats, there are so many facets of the game that people enjoy taking part in. You're also right that the layouts don't limit the players, at least not directly anyway. We don't have a solid way to measure that theory yet, but we do see people of all leagues who enjoy using the layouts. Some people switch from years of playing to try out new hotkey layouts, so there's some sort of appeal that draws them to these threads. Something to consider about top-end players/pros is the fact that a lot if not all of them are players with years of experience using the Standard layouts that predate any serious, tournament-legal custom SC2 layout. Their careers and competitive momentum depend A LOT on their muscle memory and mechanics, so anyone worth their salt right now most likely can't afford to make the switch (or perhaps they don't care? That's also a possibility). | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On July 06 2013 07:35 decemberscalm wrote: I'll try out control+MMB. Seems like it should be less problematic for drag scroll. One question. I really like having a standout camera for rallies and such. I'm looking mainly at the space bar button for a potential cam for rallies and whatever spot I want to keep an eye at. If you've already got all your spell locations memorized and can execute everything without it, is there any reason at all to keep spacebar around for commands? I'm really tempted. Maybe I could just get used to using Z or something as a rally cam. Anyone think about something like this? I've got shift engrained as add, and control as set, no way I could have them be intertwined. -Ctrl+MMB has no overlap in situations where you'd be using Drag Scroll, so that's good. Also, you cannot Ctr+Left Click things while Drag Scrolling, so Ctrl+MMB should be a deliberate combination for all players. Shift+MMB was a bit of a pain because you might want to Drag your camera onto a target when looking for a spell target or even while trying to Shift+Move units around. It was really easy to screw up your screen position this way. -I'd use Z-V for a Rally cam, or even Caps Lock if you don't use Base Camera. -Space Bar can really speed up a bunch of your commands. If you're totally comfortable with all of the commands, then I guess you now have a free hotkey to work with! A Rally Cam here wouldn't be a bad idea. I would still try to find a solution that works for you before the removing the Smart Key bindings though. It's got a ton of utility. -Shift is ingrained in my head as well, haha.. While trying out Ctrl+Q-R, I had to change the way I thought about what I was actually doing to get around it quicker. I basically separated buildings and units from each other in my head. Treating them differently definitely takes some getting used to, but it "feels" easy once you have in your mindset that Q-R are designated building CG's. It's a little weird to explain. I am still really torn on the whole idea, but I can't deny the many positive aspects of it. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
One of the great advantages this hotkey setup is just the sheer simplicity and ease of learning it compared to some of the others I've seen. And with the simplicity comes ease of customization. If someone doesn't like layered cams or layered control groups they can simply bind them back to F's and 1-0. Basing it off grid definently helps as you've got visual aid for memorization. I think the main oddities arise with the whole holding both shift and alt to add, but only control key to set for control groups. I think you are better off leaving the normal conventions alone for shift and control but write about the benefits of changing it for buildings. Leave it as an option but not the default. Super efficient layouts are great, but simply switching to an efficient hotkey setup in the first place is more important. For that to happen it has to be easy to just get into and learn. Otherwise you are losing a lot of people before they are able to put time into the setup. Intuitive is really nice to have. But that is just like, my opinion man ^^. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
Download files can be found here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a34d7t3iq6hwpeq/xE4ZRyBxDU The AZERTY files now seem to be all fixed up (as far as I can tell, hahaha). The new files are uploaded as well, and only apply to the AZERTY files. | ||
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