On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
Here's a video show casing zvt bio + widow mine!
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
Idra made a Razer Academy video highlighting a similar 3base Swarm Host ZvP. Everyone trying to emulate Swarm Host in ZvP should watch it, very informative.
Idra stays on Swarm Host/Roach/Ling for quite some time here, and transitions into Corruptor instead of Viper/Ultra (like blade). The basic idea is the same though.
What I found interesting, is when he discusses "forcing" the Protoss to make a midgame army. Many Zerg are scared of the skytoss deathball, and I found that (at my newbie level) a Protoss can't go directly to air (Carrier/Tempest) and not die to Swarm Host sieging. They need Colossus and some Gateway army to hold their third/fourth. Just like many Protoss try to force roach/ling instead (early gate attacks) or hydra (stargate) so Zerg can't drone uncontested, so can Zerg force Protoss to make an actual ground army.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
since you pulled this off a lot: do think its holdable and being ahead with 15h 16p? right now i am doing a 13 dronescout on 2 playermaps, stall with drones, and once pool finishes instantly build 2 spines in main, very few lings to just stall, queen main and add drones and queens after that. dont know how viable this is vs a good player though.
also tinking about building 4 lings at natural and sending them to opponents base but not sure if i have the minerals to do so since i havent played vs 888 in some time now.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
Honestly it is ironic how you have more chances to lose against a bronze/silver league than against a master...
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
since you pulled this off a lot: do think its holdable and being ahead with 15h 16p? right now i am doing a 13 dronescout on 2 playermaps, stall with drones, and once pool finishes instantly build 2 spines in main, very few lings to just stall, queen main and add drones and queens after that. dont know how viable this is vs a good player though.
also tinking about building 4 lings at natural and sending them to opponents base but not sure if i have the minerals to do so since i havent played vs 888 in some time now.
Sending lings will be quite easy to see for the reapers (I do like to send a SCV to the watch tower) and walling off the main base is really easy too, I don't think this is a good option unless it's really unseen. But you may need these lings at home to get you some time.
I think you *can* not die against 8/8/8 with 15 hatch 16 gaz 16 pool, but you really have to focus really hard on having that gaz to get speed. You don't want to create too much slow lings because i can simply kite them to death without losing a single hp. It's only to win time... The real problem is that when there are more than 3-4 reapers, queens will be focus to death rapidly, and it will be mandatory to back them to the spine.
If there is only one spine, you can still harass and deny mining for long, and the reapers number will increase (snowball...) I didn't play too much against 2 early spines. I think people tend to do the second one too late and I can cancel it...
The only way to *Not Die* to it for me while doing the 15 hatch16 pool is to build a spine to protect the gaz until 100, and then putting the spine crawler to the mineral line and focus on lings production while backing always the hurt drone with mineral walk to scare the reaper with the other drones very carefully. It's really micro intensive for the zerg to not lose 3-4 drones and then this is just almost over because of the snowball effect. You really need to NOT pull like 10 drones to follow the reaper.... It's like free non-mining time for me and I can kill drone even easier
As soon as you still have 6-8 lings and the speed upgrade finishes, you succeed at didn't die to it (you can be ahead, or not regarding what happened --> constant scv production behind it and CC etc...)
After all, I didn't play against the best reactions with 15 hatch. I won against all of them, but sometimes it was really really close (I have only average micro....). A lot of players just bet on the queens to push the reaper back, and don't know that 3 reapers can kill a queen with micro, and then pull back and heal themself. Even if the spine is exposed, it's easy to focus it for a long time and then just pull back every time a reaper is almost dead, heal, and come with more and more reapers...
The funny part is when people scout my opening, and still plant hatch first ... I mean, pool first with fast gaz is auto win against this...
EDIT : Hahaha yes Arhk, I lose 2 of my 5 placement matchs against silver or bronze players that 10 and 14 pool me with fast speed, and then went to master to have an easier time
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
since you pulled this off a lot: do think its holdable and being ahead with 15h 16p? right now i am doing a 13 dronescout on 2 playermaps, stall with drones, and once pool finishes instantly build 2 spines in main, very few lings to just stall, queen main and add drones and queens after that. dont know how viable this is vs a good player though.
also tinking about building 4 lings at natural and sending them to opponents base but not sure if i have the minerals to do so since i havent played vs 888 in some time now.
Sending lings will be quite easy to see for the reapers (I do like to send a SCV to the watch tower) and walling off the main base is really easy too, I don't think this is a good option unless it's really unseen. But you may need these lings at home to get you some time.
I think you *can* not die against 8/8/8 with 15 hatch 16 gaz 16 pool, but you really have to focus really hard on having that gaz to get speed. You don't want to create too much slow lings because i can simply kite them to death without losing a single hp. It's only to win time... The real problem is that when there are more than 3-4 reapers, queens will be focus to death rapidly, and it will be mandatory to back them to the spine.
If there is only one spine, you can still harass and deny mining for long, and the reapers number will increase (snowball...) I didn't play too much against 2 early spines. I think people tend to do the second one too late and I can cancel it...
The only way to *Not Die* to it for me while doing the 15 hatch16 pool is to build a spine to protect the gaz until 100, and then putting the spine crawler to the mineral line and focus on lings production while backing always the hurt drone with mineral walk to scare the reaper with the other drones very carefully. It's really micro intensive for the zerg to not lose 3-4 drones and then this is just almost over because of the snowball effect. You really need to NOT pull like 10 drones to follow the reaper.... It's like free non-mining time for me and I can kill drone even easier
As soon as you still have 6-8 lings and the speed upgrade finishes, you succeed at didn't die to it (you can be ahead, or not regarding what happened --> constant scv production behind it and CC etc...)
After all, I didn't play against the best reactions with 15 hatch. I won against all of them, but sometimes it was really really close (I have only average micro....). A lot of players just bet on the queens to push the reaper back, and don't know that 3 reapers can kill a queen with micro, and then pull back and heal themself. Even if the spine is exposed, it's easy to focus it for a long time and then just pull back every time a reaper is almost dead, heal, and come with more and more reapers...
The funny part is when people scout my opening, and still plant hatch first ... I mean, pool first with fast gaz is auto win against this...
thanks for the detailed answer!!
actually i do it all gasless (the 2 spine and 1 queen thing) and then add 2 gases and a roach warren. while you are right speedlings are very nice vs reaper there are 3 problems: early gas will mean you have even less minerals for queens, lings, spines and drones (4 less drones mining is huge at that time), your pool will be delayed even more with gas before pool and even once speed finishes you will need a lot of lings (= a lot of larvae) to push back 4-5 reaper.
i got no time today, but i would really like to play some games tomorrow if you want to
If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
Yea, i'm posting in the strategy section asking how to defeat a strategy and being "sarcastic" <--- This is me being sarcastic. I keep losing to it over and over.Your advice doesn't really help me. Like do I cancel hatch? Get gas? Get bane nest first or speed? Spine? How many Queens/Lings?
On April 03 2013 00:20 LucoxP wrote: Yea, i'm posting in the strategy section asking how to defeat a strategy and being "sarcastic" <--- This is me being sarcastic. I keep losing to it over and over.Your advice doesn't really help me. Like do I cancel hatch? Get gas? Get bane nest first or speed? Spine? How many Queens/Lings?
Well, I assumed you were sarcastic since it has been talked about since Wing of liberty beta, and there are plenty of guides on the matter.
On April 02 2013 21:16 theMarkovian wrote: Idra made a Razer Academy video highlighting a similar 3base Swarm Host ZvP. Everyone trying to emulate Swarm Host in ZvP should watch it, very informative.
Idra stays on Swarm Host/Roach/Ling for quite some time here, and transitions into Corruptor instead of Viper/Ultra (like blade). The basic idea is the same though.
What I found interesting, is when he discusses "forcing" the Protoss to make a midgame army. Many Zerg are scared of the skytoss deathball, and I found that (at my newbie level) a Protoss can't go directly to air (Carrier/Tempest) and not die to Swarm Host sieging. They need Colossus and some Gateway army to hold their third/fourth. Just like many Protoss try to force roach/ling instead (early gate attacks) or hydra (stargate) so Zerg can't drone uncontested, so can Zerg force Protoss to make an actual ground army.
I used to do the same thing, but protosses started having timings and stuff that could kill you (and it made fighting the voidray/colossi deathball impossible to fight sense corruptors suck ass vs the voidrays). That is why I still do it but skip spire and go straight hive and get vipers.
I do swarmhost aggression in zvp as it is since beta to as it is incredibly powerful and it's my main strategy zvp. For me if I get sh out I rarely lose zvp once it gets to that point .
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
1. When a 6 pool you pull drones + use lings and you'll hold no problem. If he 6 pools you might have to cancel the hatch this is really on what he does, if he goes straight into main then don't cancel hatch, if he goes straight for hatchery well cancel it last second cause a 6 pool has to do a ton of damage. Mineral walk with drones is great then with drone + ling you will hold anything no problem.
2. vs 10 pool you can have a small timing window to do some heavy ling/bane aggression and will probably kill him as when they do a 10 pool and get a fast hatchery their gas is VERY delayed. So far whenever I do 15 pool/16 hatch/16 gas I do a counter speedling/bane aggression and I normally kill them.
ZvP, I read that I need to put the 3rd at 21... is that in answer to FFE / nexus first ? Because I got crushed every single time in early game. I won one time because the toss did FFE (Hydra SH vs Skytoss, very effective).
If he dont fast expo, when should I put my 3rd ?
Added to that, when I put the 3rd at 21 I have the feeling to have like 0 eco for a long time, is that normal ? Even when droning only ?
On April 03 2013 05:37 RandomQueen wrote: Hey Blade, another noob question !
ZvP, I read that I need to put the 3rd at 21... is that in answer to FFE / nexus first ? Because I got crushed every single time in early game. I won one time because the toss did FFE (Hydra SH vs Skytoss, very effective).
If he dont fast expo, when should I put my 3rd ?
Added to that, when I put the 3rd at 21 I have the feeling to have like 0 eco for a long time, is that normal ? Even when droning only ?
Thanks
If he doesn't FFE you place your third when he takes his natural.
On April 03 2013 05:42 RandomQueen wrote: Thanks for the answer
Yes that answer is correct but do not think he can't do any sort of 5 gate pressure afterwards. When a protoss goes 1 gate FE he kind of has to do some sort of pressure or he will put himself behind economically. The most common is a 5 gate which is pretty much a do or die as he has to do damage with it or he will be in an almost unwinnable situation.
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
What do you mean by mineral walking? Like do you mineral walk to your natural, or do you just pull back the drones closes to his lings, but still in you main mineral line?
Yes I always do the Roach Warren. In fact I follow your builds at the moment (with some variations like Baneling Nest before Speedling) to learn why they are like this and what are the "weak points". That's how I died ten times to protoss before figure out that fast 3rd is situational :D
I will go ask some timings in the Pro Q/A and I think I will understand better the game.
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
What do you mean by mineral walking? Like do you mineral walk to your natural, or do you just pull back the drones closes to his lings, but still in you main mineral line?
By mineral walking he is talking about selecting your drones and clicking a mineral patch, this makes them combine themselves in a way and go through units so you can get a surround or avoid the lings getting a surround and killing a bunch of workers.
EPT
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