i Introduction......................................................................................................................................................................................... 1.0 Zerg versus Terran.......................................................................................................................................................................
1.1 The Builds.......................................................................................................................................................... 1.2 Detailed Explanation of the Build................................................................................................................ 1.3 Dealing with the Early Game........................................................................................................................ 1.4 Mid Game Strategies...................................................................................................................................... 1.5 Late Game Transitions: Roach/Ling/Bane/Swarmhost into Ultra/Broodlord.................................. 1.6 Replays/Vods....................................................................................................................................................
2.0 Zerg versus Zerg..........................................................................................................................................................................
2.1 The Builds.......................................................................................................................................................... 2.2 Detailed Explanation of the Build................................................................................................................ 2.3 Mutalisk Play.................................................................................................................................................... 2.4 Replays/Vods....................................................................................................................................................
3.0 Zerg versus Protoss....................................................................................................................................................................
3.1 The Build............................................................................................................................................................. 3.2 Detailed Explanation of the Build................................................................................................................ 3.3 Utilizing the Swarmhost................................................................................................................................ 3.4 Using Mutalisks................................................................................................................................................ 3.5 Roach/Hydra Composition............................................................................................................................ 3.6 The Late Game................................................................................................................................................. 3.7 Replays/Vods....................................................................................................................................................
Introduction
Hello everyone. We are here with a set of guides for the Heart of the Swarm StarCraft 2 expansion. It has been quite a while since I last wrote a guide, but with the Heart of the Swarm just released, now is the perfect time for an overview of Zerg in HotS. This guide will feature all the match-ups (Zerg vs Protoss, Zerg vs Terran, Zerg vs Zerg) with a general overview of the early, mid and late game in each. We will be going over the use of all the new units, and how to utilize them the best in the current Meta-Game.
This Zerg vs Terran section will be going over almost every area of the match-up, including areas such as the early game reaper harass, as well as mid game unit compositions, and effectively using the units in the Late Game. The unit compositions this section will feature include roach/zergling/baneling/swarmhost, and mutalisk/ling/bane into ultra. The guide will also cover dealing with drops, mech, late game unit compositions and match-up specific timings.
The Builds
Versus a gas Opening from Terran
15 hatch
16 pool
16 gas
100 gas – pull drones off gas and get ling speed
6:30 – take your third
6:30 – put guys back on gas
6:45 – get second gas
7:00 – get third gas
7:15 – roach warren + double evo
7:15 – 7:30 – get fourth gas
Start +1 melee and carapace
Next 100 gas goes to lair
Get baneling nest while going lair
Lair finishes – get either an infestation pit or spire (will be explained below)
Versus a no gas Opening from Terran
15 hatch
16 pool
4 queens
36 – take third base
6:00 – double gas
7:00 – get third gas
7:15 – roach warren + double evo
7:15 – 7:30 – get fourth gas
Start +1 melee and carapace
Next 100 gas goes to lair
Get baneling nest while going lair
Lair finishes – get either an infestation pit or spire (will be explained below)
Detailed Explanation of the Build
The reason for opening gas against a Terran who opened gas is for the reason that most Terran's will go for reapers which are very powerful in HotS. If Zerg doesn't get fast zergling speed, and the Terran makes 3-4 reapers, Zerg can take a lot more damage than necessary, and will possibly start losing queens as well. Zerg requires speedlings to gain map control. If a Zerg attempts to respond with roaches, his economy will take a big blow, as you need them extremely fast. This also gives map control to the Terran for a very long time and Terran could potentially catch you by a complete surprise with an all-in since you have 0 map control. Speedlings allow Zerg to get back map control and be more aware of those timings.
The part of the build where you take workers off gas is because you want more minerals, and there is no reason to mine gas when your goal should be droning. The reaper opening does a great job at delaying creep spread and droning, while Terran keeps his SCV production up while expanding + teching. As a Zerg, you need to be droning extremely hard once you gain back map control.
If Terran goes gas, we advise you only get three queens, and only one of those for creep spread. If Terran gets no gas, you should do the standard four queens build with two for creep spread.
In a game facing reapers, your lair will be later than normal. This is perfectly fine as you have to remember that the Terran can’t possibly be doing a 8 minute marine/marauder/hellbat timing if he is opening with reapers. Zergs also have to remember the Terran's natural is going to be a bit later then normal as well.
The +1 melee and carapace is just a preference on upgrades. If you know he is going mech 100%, then get ranged. Since Zerg's normally don’t know 100% if the Terran is going mech or bio, getting melee/carapace is safest bet. If you scout mech, get ranged upgrades immediately and then go for the melee upgrades later on.
The baneling nest is just in-case the Terran tries a bio + hellbat timing or any sort of timing that may catch you by surprise. Banelings are a very great unit against timings you aren’t expecting.
The infestation pit or spire decision simply depends on what you prefer to do as a Zerg player. If you are going to go infestors get a infestation pit, if you are going mutalisks get a spire. This is very simple.
Dealing with the Early Game
Reaper Harassment The best way to defend against early reapers is to get speedlings out as fast as possible. Defending until that point can be difficult if the Terran is using reapers aggressively, letting them heal, and then poking in again immediately. What the Zerg should do is once the reaper enters your base and starts shooting drones is to pull a few drones to chase it and pull any drone that is shot twice away as soon as you see it. Do this until lings come out, and then have your lings chase until the queens pop out. Once the queens come out, the Zerg should be relatively safe for the most part. If Terran makes 3-4 reapers, the harassment will still be super strong and you need to make more lings so that he doesn’t kill your lings, then kill queens and then the drones.
Now once your speedlings are out, you should be able to kill them or at the very least push the Terran back to his base since speedlings are faster then reapers. Use this time to maintain map control and keep an eye on any transition if possible. A lot of Terrans transition into some widow mines, so make sure to poke at the natural, but with only one ling at a time so that if the Terran does have widow mines, you won’t lose more than one ling.
Normally Zerg can do a little harassment and get a couple SCV kills with a speedling counter if the Terran opens up with three-four reapers. If he opens up with only one reaper, the odds are that he is going to have hellions out fairly fast, so be wary of that as well.
Once speedlings are out and you have map control, it should be possible to take the third expansion with no problem and transition into a normal mid-game.
1/1/1 Widow Mine Drops The best response to widow mine drops is to make sure to have a spore crawler out as soon as possible. Make sure to pull workers off the worker line and let a ling detonate it to continue mining again as soon as possible.
If Zerg does not have spores when this drop comes, make a spore and detonate the mines as fast as possible, and get back to mining right away. Make sure to pull workers before the mine is reloaded. Try to keep a good eye on the timer and pull the workers, or wait until the spore crawler is about done to pull. It's not efficient to waste too much mining time, but it's also not efficient to lose every drone to a widow mine as well. Make a judgement call on whether drones should be pulled or not.
Once the spore crawler(s) finishes, the Zerg should be able to kill the mines and not have to worry about the drops anymore. If this drop does no damage, Zerg is going to be insanely far ahead as the Terran can’t do a fast timing after this. This particular strategy has to do damage or Terran can be in a very bad position.
Hellbat drops aren’t going to be happening anymore with the 1/1/1 due to the fact that Terrans can’t start hellbats until an armory is finished, or they have to wait until the upgrade finishes to transform already made hellions into hellbats. This hellbat drop has not been viable for a while, and should not be the primary area of concern for a Zerg player.
Bio + Hellbat Pushes Zerg should be able to see this coming if they are actively scouting with overlords, sacrificing zerglings, and just scouting in general. This bio + hellbat push is powerful if Zerg doesn't have the proper units. If the Zerg only has ling/bane, it can be hard to deal with this push; however, roach/ling/bane can crush this push as long as the Zerg prepared in time.
If the Zerg sees this push, they need to make to not over-drone when this push comes. Zerg needs a decent amount of roaches, lings, and banelings to hold this push. Terran will push with stim and 4-8 hellbats (it varies depending on the Terran player). If you have to lose the third base, it is fine to just sack it, as this is a push where Zerg wants to make sure they can hold, and losing the third base won't be game ending.
Once the Zerg holds this push, he can either drone and take a fourth base, or try to counter with a roach/ling/baneling attack. Normally the Terran player shouldn't have any tanks, and this attack does need to do damage. It is a strong two base push, but if it fails and gets crushed, Zerg is far very far ahead.
Mid Game Strategies
Dealing with Drop Play Drop play is a lot stronger in HotS due to the medivac speed boost. These drops make going non-mutalisk play a lot harder just because of how fast the medivacs can speed into the player's base. Dealing with these drops requires good multi-tasking and static defense.
Once the Zerg plans on moving out to be aggressive, you need some way to defend against drops, and that way is static defense. The Zerg should be placing a few spines as well as at least one spore at each base, so that drops don't devastate the Zerg player. Also, keeping a small ling/bane group near each hatchery is a good idea to deflect drops as well, so that the Zerg doesn't have to pull his army to deal with it. This is the best way to deal with drops once the Zerg is ready to be aggressive or if the Terran player is going to push while doing two-three drops at once. This way, the Zerg can defend the push and deflect drop play without taking to much damage, compared to having no static defense and not leaving any ling/baneling behind, which would result in a ton of damage.
Overlord placement is very important as well. The Zerg should have overlord speed at some point and once that finishes, make sure to spread out the overlords on the map. The sooner the Zerg sees a dropship coming, the longer he has to react to it. That way, the Zerg can place the defense they need, and can still move out or deal with a push rather then seeing the drop come out of nowhere, resulting in a mad scramble to deal with it.
Starting to spread out overlords too early is the reason Terran players make vikings early nowadays, so it is better to wait for speed to finish before sending too many out. Vikings will supply cap the Zerg hard if he is sending out all the overlords across the map, which is why waiting until speed's done is better. This way the Zerg won't lose all his overlords and can spread them out again after dealing with the viking.
Bio + widow mine combination
The bio + widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of tvz. It is superior to tanks in the fact that widow mines are super mobile and once drilling claws is upgraded they burrow in 1 second. This makes the bio + widow mine a very strong and hard to engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane with some roaches and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only 1 ling, zerg needs to be sending 4-5 to detonate some mines.
A good terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that they can prevent 1 ling and sometimes even 5 lings from detonating a mine. A terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the zerg. Flanking the terran army is almost a must so that widow mines don't hit all the zergs units. If the zerg can hit from 2 different angles widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would if the zerg attacks in one direction. If the zerg has roaches sending in a roach with a couple lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or 2.
Swarmhosts are a very strong unit verse bio + widow mine, but if you go that composition the zerg needs to be prepared for drop play. Drop play is something that can punish this composition if the zerg isn't prepared for drops he can die. Another composition that can be good is going muta/ling/bane into swarmhost which allows the zerg to deal with drops much, much easier and then swarmhosts deal with widow mines very good due to the locusts being strong and tanking a few shots.
There are a couple replays show casing the muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost transition and how it deals with bio + widow mine so feel free to download those to see it in action.
Mutalisk/Ling/Baneling into Ultra The mutalisk has changed a lot in Heart of the Swarm. Mutalisks have seen a notable speed increase as well as much higher health regeneration. If mutalisks take a ton of damage, and they all go to one health, they will all be fully healed in roughly 120 seconds. Before, it took a lot longer to regenerate this health.
If Zerg is going to go heavy with mutalisks, an overseer is a must when doing harassment. If the Zerg doesn't bring a overseer, two-three widow mines could really ruin your day. Two-three widow mines will kill most, if not all of the mutas, especially if they are clumped and focusing down something. This can be a game ending scenario if it happens, and either way Terran would be way ahead.
The Zerg wants to get about 16-20 mutalisks out before starting hive tech. Make sure to have overlords spread out as there is no way Terran can kill overlords that are looking for drops as the Zerg should have complete map control with his mutalisks.
Try not to attack from one angle when utilizing this composition. Setting up flanks is very powerful and makes it so that you can hit the Terran army from multiple angles, or even sandwich it so that he can’t even run away, resulting in his army just melting.
It is a lot stronger to perform flanks than it is to just go in from one direction, especially if there are siege tanks. If Zerg holds the Terran's push or if he hasn’t yet pushed, ultralisks should be out fairly soon, and the Zerg should be transitioning into ultralisks/ling/bane/infestor. Do not throw away mutalisks; if you can keep them alive, it makes dealing with drop play much easier.
Zerg will eventually want to have a greater spire so that they can tech switch to brood lords, then back to ultras to counter when Terran tries to do their own counter of the brood lord army.
Another thing to note is that Zerg should not be doing this style if scouting mech. This will get crushed by mech, so if Zerg starts off with mutalisks against mech, DO NOT continue into heavy mutalisks.
Fighting Mech Fighting mech can be quite hard as it is difficult to engage them on their own turf. Normally, Zerg will want to try and contain the meching player to as few bases for as long as possible while taking expansions and starving the Terran of resources.
The best way Zergs have found to fight mech is to get swarm hosts out, about 12-15 and have them assaulting the Terran bases. Behind this, Zerg should have roach/hydra, and once hive finishes Zerg should start adding in the vipers. Swarm hosts are very powerful against mech as they make the mech push a bit slower, delaying the push quite a bit with locusts. It also makes engaging the Terran mech ball a little bit easier since they can tank damage pretty well as well as dish it back.
Zerg should be able to keep a nice contain until vipers get out. If Terran begins to push, do not keep your swarm hosts in the same spot. Move them back a bit and let out a wave of locusts while waiting for viper energy so that you can blinding cloud or abduct the units. Do not rush any engagement; rather, delay it for as long as possible. If you find yourself having no choice but to engage, flank and try to time your attack with the locusts coming out. If Zerg can hit from three different angles with locusts at the same time, he should be able to beat back any Terran push with no problems.
Zergs will want spines and a spore at each base to deal with hellion/hellbat/widow mine drops. The spore is so you have detection, and the spines are to kill the drops.
The end game army that Zerg wants is ultralisks/hydra/ling/swarm host/viper. Make sure to have vipers behind hydras unless you are going to cast blinding cloud. You will probably lose your vipers when doing this, which is ok, as this is going to happen no matter what. Terrans are make vikings to counter vipers, but as long as the Zerg player can get blinding clouds down on the Terran army and engage, he can just remake them later.
Again, try flanking maneuvers. By keeping swarm hosts alive and with blinding cloud + hydra/ultra/swarmhost, the Zerg should be able to take on any Terran ground army head on. You may not kill it all, but Zerg should have a good enough economy to re-max fast. At worst, if Zerg engages properly, you should kill most of the army, and at best the whole army. Zerg can wait for reinforcements before pushing or keeping the contain as well.
A Zerg player's goal against mech is to starve the Terran, and make sure he can’t get a ton of expansions. Eventually Terran will starve and you will win with a much better economy. This can lead to some long games, but patience is very key against mech, and Zerg should be taking the whole map so the Terran will have to attack or he will lose due to the economic difference.
There are replays that show case this so make sure to check those out if you are skeptical about it!
Late Game Transitions: Roach/Ling/Bane/Swarmhost into Ultra/Broodlord
Going for roach/ling/baneling/swarm host is a very great way to play the mid game, while you tech and get either your intended path of ultralisks or broodlords out.
When using this composition, make sure you are starting off with roach/ling/bane. Do not rush to swarm hosts and do not start making them as soon as lair finishes. If Zerg does not have many ling/bane or roaches, and rushes straight to swarm hosts, drop play will absolutely dominate him. A Zerg just can’t deal with drops, and if a Terran sees that you are rushing for swarm hosts, he will drop you at 3 places at once, and you will not be able to deal with them without taking immense damage, and it’s game over at that point anyway. With roach/ling/bane first, a Zerg can deal with drops easily and then they will have a very strong unit composition for the mid-game.
What makes this composition surprisingly powerful whether Terran goes pure bio, bio + tanks, bio + widow mines, etc, is that it deals with each of those compositions very well. The strength of this composition is that it is very great for defensive play. It makes holding pre-hive timings a lot easier since locusts can do pretty well against the bio, and it takes damage from tanks nicely.
This makes it a bit easier to engage a Terran army, and to slow down a push as well. Since locusts are free, there is no reason not to have them constantly going somewhere. If the Zerg sees a Terran pushing, he should throw down some locusts, then push the swarm hosts back so that the Terran can’t just stim and kill them. Once Zerg is going to engage his army, make sure to flank and attack when the locusts are attacking. Siege tanks will fire at them and will allow your roach/ling/bane to fight the Terran's army without taking as much tank fire.
Then after you hold any push Terran does, the Zerg can get ultralisks out, or go with broodlords again. Going broodlords first can be nice as it will force the Terran to start making vikings and then Zerg can transition into ultralisk/ling/bane/infestor. Also, Zerg should keep swarm hosts alive as long as possible. They will be useful even late game as Zerg can have them assault a different base while you use your main army to attack somewhere else. Eventualy, Zerg needs infestors to prevent a bionic army from kiting ultralisks all day long. In addition, they are also a good way to take out medivacs.
This is a much stronger defensive unit composition then aggressive. The reason that is, is the fact that swarm hosts are slow and a stimmed bio force will catch them in retreat if Zerg doesn't have a strong enough army to take his head on. If as a Zerg, you are going to be aggressive, make absolutely sure that your army can at least take out most of his army in a fight, and your swarm hosts will be able to get away. Getting caught out of position or losing the swarm hosts can be game ending, so keep that in mind.
Muta/ling/bane/swarmhost into hive
This is a style I started doing on hots release and is very solid versus bio + widow mine. The past week I have seen korean zergs starting to do this style as well (I know their not copying me).
So the zerg should open up like typical ling/bane/muta. This style will play out just like normal muta/ling/baneling and the zerg should not start adding in swarmhosts until the zerg has 14-16 mutalisks, 2/2 melee and carapace and hive tech. The transition into swarmhosts is to start after this. So once the zerg starts hive the zerg should be adding in 10 swarmhosts. If the zerg uses the swarmhosts correctly by not being overly aggressive with them and put a good distance back, the zerg should hold any bio + widow mine push easily.
The zerg should have mutalisks to deal with any drop play and some ling/bane at a couple bases so that if the mutalisks are out of position the drop can still be dealt with, with minimal damage. Once the zerg has 10 swarmhosts they should be using it to supplement the army and have the locusts draw the fire from widow mines. The zerg can also use them to kill them if they have proper overseer placement.
Now once hive finishes the zerg should be teching to either broodlords or ultralisks. Both work great and going ultra then broodlord then back to ultralisk is a great thing to do. The end game composition is going to be ultra/ling/bane/swarmhost/infestor and the zerg can add in vipers later. If the zerg loses swarmhosts they do not have to remake them, but you shouldn't lose them unless they are out of position so try to avoid that. This is very strong versus the bio widow mine and the zerg can decide not to do this if the zerg is facing marine/tank.
Zerg versus Zerg is played differently in HotS than it is in Wings of Liberty. We will be explaining mostly about mutalisks, and how to most effectively use them as they are the primary unit in HotS ZvZ. We will go over situations such as muta vs muta, and muta vs roach/hydra/infestor.
The Builds
Muta Build: 15 Pool Version
15 - pool
16 - hatch
16 - gas
15 - overlord
First 100 gas – metabolic boost (speedlings)
Second 50 gas – baneling nest
25 – overlord
5:30 – spine crawler
5:50 – 2nd and 3rd gas
6:00 – lair
6:15 – 4th gas
Lair finishes – spire
Start third base after spire
Spire finishes - +1 carapace(+1 attack if no muta from other zerg)
Muta Build: 15 Hatch Version
15 - hatch
16 - pool
17 - gas
16 - overlord
First 100 gas – metabolic boost (speedlings)
Second 50 gas – baneling nest
5:30 – spine crawler
5:50 – 2nd and 3rd gas
6:00 – lair
6:15 – 4th gas
Lair finishes – spire
Start third base after spire
Spire finishes - +1 carapace(+1 attack if no muta from other zerg)
Detailed Explanation of the Build
When executing a mutalisk build, Zerg players should start the lair fairly fast, which is the most optimal way as seen from Idra in multiple games we have observed. This build allows mutalisks to come out fairly fast and does not put you behind economically.
Zergs will often switch up the order of the speedling upgrade/baneling nest. The reason for this is that if the Zerg doesn't intend on being aggressive with early lings, getting a baneling nest first is going to make you absolutely safe against a speedling all-in. If the other Zerg is intending on speedling all-inning as soon as his speed finishes, you will have banelings, and unless there is bad micro, you should hold this no problem and come out very far ahead. On the other hand, if you intend on being aggressive, it is best to get metabolic boost first. If you intend on being defensive, we don’t see a downside to baneling nest first, but this is of course up to you.
The spine crawler is something Zerg players don’t have to do in ZvZ, but it’s safer and allows them to be safer, and holds off early aggression easier than not getting the spine. Not getting the spine is just a way of being greedier than the other Zerg player.
After you start your third, you should be mass producing lings, while either pressuring the other Zerg;s third base, or defending your own third base against his ling/bane pressure to try and cancel the third.
Mutalisk Play
Mutalisk versus Mutalisk This is a very common scenario in HotS ZvZ right now, and it is the biggest difference between WoL and HotS ZvZ. In HotS, this is standard and something you should definitely know how to execute. With the mutalisk speed buff, health regeneration, and the infestor nerf, mutalisks are very dominant in this match-up.
Playing in a mutalisk war requires good multi-tasking and mechanics in general. You don’t want to miss making mutalisks, and should be doing ling run-bys while mutalisks hit another location.
Keeping up on injects is very important while multitasking ling runbys at the natural + third of the other Zerg; hitting another location with mutalisks is very good and can make some Zerg players just fall apart as this is a very micro intensive unit composition. Do not engage in a mutalisk fight unless you know you will win. The aggressive Zerg player should not engage the defending Zerg player's mutalisks at his third unless the aggressive Zerg has a huge mutalisk advantage due to an earlier engagement.
Transitioning out of mutalisk vs mutalisk will make the Zerg very vulnerable for a short timing. If the opponent happens to notice that the Zerg is trying to transition into infestors, and doesn’t have as many mutalisks, he should push for the kill, or do immense damage while he is transitioning.
It wouldn't be recommended to transition out of mutalisks, but if the other player transitions and you don’t act on it you could be in trouble. Pay very close attention to the other player's mutalisk count, and if the Zerg starts falling quiet a bit behind this, it should be a huge indicator that the other player is trying to transition into some other tech.
Taking a fourth base is really based on when the Zerg has enough economy, or if he has a good lead from an earlier mutalisk engagement. If you are in the position of being in a good lead, take a fourth. It is hard to engage at a Zerg third, as normally they will have a spore or two+ queen support, and unless you have a huge mutalisk lead, this isn’t safe to fight into.
The best ways to defend against multiple ling run bys is to make a couple banes at the third + natural base. Also, a spine or two at each base will help a lot against any ling run-bys.
Mutalisk versus Roach/Hydra/Infestor This isn’t as common in Heart of the Swarm, but it will happen every once in awhile. There are two things that can be done when going mutalisks against a roach/hydra/infestor composition. One of the options is going heavy muta/ling/bane into ultralisks. This is a very strong option because if the roach/hydra/infestor player attacks too late, your ultralisks will be out, but if he attacks before, the muta player needs to do flanking maneuvers and engage the roach/hydra/infestor composition when they hit flanks.
When facing roach/hydra/infestor, the mutalisk player should be making some spines so that when the fight does happen, it’ll be a lot easier to defend than engaging without spine support. When utilizing this style of play, make about 16 mutalisks before starting hive.
The second the mutalisk player see's no mutalisks, he should make two evo chambers and start +1 carapace and melee upgrades. Then eventually add in infestors with the ultra/ling/bane composition as well. If you get this composition after defending a roach/hydra/infestor attack, as long as you don’t make a blunder, you will win with the better unit composition.
The other option that the mutalisk player can do is transition into a roach/hydra/infestor composition himself. This is really up to the Zerg player on how he wants to fight against a player not going mutalisks. Same thing as before: once the Zerg sees no mutalisks from the other Zerg, just get two evolution chambers, and if you're going roach/hydra/infestor get +1 ranged/carapace instead of +1 melee/carapace.
Defending Roach/Ling/Baneling Attacks A common attack that Zerg will face when opening mutalisks is a roach/ling/bane attack that will hit before mutalisks pop an attack that can straight up kill you if you don't see it coming. If the Zerg sees this timing coming, he needs to be making a ton of spine crawlers, and spreading them out so that banelings will not kill all of them when they detonate. Spreading them out is a must or making so many spines will not matter.
To spot this timing, Zerg should always be sending in speedlings to the opponent's base. Sending in three spread out speedlings at a time will garner you scouting information, for example, a ton of lings, some roaches, spine crawlers, evo chambers, etc. Sometimes, getting inside the main base will even allow you to see everything. There is no downside to doing this, and you have a much better chance of seeing this timing than waiting until he moves out.
There should be an overlord checking in on the other Zerg player's drone count and gas timings. If lings fail to get information and you see no third and fourth gas and a low drone count, that is a sign of an attack incoming. This indicates some sort of timing is about to hit and you should be putting down spines if you notice it. Especially, if you notice that you have a lot more drones than your opponent, that is a huge sign that the other Zerg will hit a timing.
If you get enough spine crawlers down and spread out, you should hold no problem. If your spires finishes, you will be insanely far ahead. The roach/ling/bane player will not have a lair finished and will be incredibly behind if he didn't do any damage. After holding this push, take the third base, drone it up, and use mutalisks for map control to deny the other Zerg's third for as long as possible. Then kill him with either a roach timing or muta/ling/bane.
This is the Zerg vs Protoss section of our Heart of the Swarm Zerg guide. This section will be most beneficial if you already know the basic ZvP openings. If you do not know the standard fast three base vs forge FE, watch the replays which will showcase these openings for you to learn. Some of the things discussed in this section will be swarm hosts, mutalisks, roach/hydra and the best ways to use those compositions as well as transitioning into them.
The Build
6:10 – 2 gases
6:30 – 7 minutes – a roach warren (this is up to you on when to get this)
7 minutes – evo chamber (start +1 range)
7:00 – get 3rd gas
7:20 to 7:30 – start lair (this will be explained later)
8:00 – get 4’th gas
Lair finishes – infestation pit and hydralisk (this will be explained later)
9:00 – 5’th and 6’th gas
Detailed Explanation of the Build
It is normal to start a fast lair around 7:20 - 7:30 unless a stargate opening is scouted. If a stargate is scouted, it is fine to delay the lair to 7:30 or later. If a robotics bay is spotted, the Zerg should not start the lair any later than 7:20. This is for the simple reason that there is a possibility the Protoss can immortal all-in. The swarm host can come out in time for the immortal all-in, and this makes beating the immortal all-in a lot easier than with any other unit. We have replays show casing this vs the immortal all-in, and it is much easier to beat it than going pure roach/ling. If you get the lair much later then 7:20-7:30, you will probably not get swarm hosts in time.
The reasoning behind going for a infestation pit and hydra den at the same time is that hydralisks, in combination with swarm hosts are very strong; however, you also need some anti-air against stargate play which is what makes the hydralisks a smart choice. If the Protoss player goes for stargate play, and the Zerg goes swarm hosts first and then becomes aggressive with them, the Protoss can actually shut them down quite hard once detection hits the field. This will make the swarm host useless until the Zerg has his own anti-air on the field. Hydralisks aren't too expensive, and they build very fast. After you get these out, you can start making swarm hosts, and start to become aggressive while waiting for your spire to finish.
When your +1 carapace is almost done, get a 2nd evolution chamber, and for ranged upgrades, upgrading +2 carapace and +1 ranged going at the same time. Just keep those upgrades going, and you can add a 3rd evolution chamber if you want to do melee as well. This is up to you.
If you need any more clarification just ask and we will answer!
Reacting to gate expand
An old opening that has become popular again is the gateway expand. The gateway expand is something that can put on pressure while teching and can punish fast 3 base no gas play.
When a zerg notices they are facing gateway expansion the zerg player should get a gas asap. This is very, very important. The faster the zerg player gets metabolic boost upgraded the faster lings can move around the map and kill hidden probes or pylons. This is very important because one of the most common things a protoss player does when gateway expanding is to do a 4 gate pressure to try and kill the third base. If the protoss player succeeds this puts the zerg player behind as that third is now delayed and the protoss player is going to be ahead economically. If the zerg defends it without losing the third or take any economic damage, then the zerg player is going to be ahead.
The hard part for the zerg player is knowing if the protoss player is going to do this 4-5 gate pressure or just tech and not do this. This is important information because if zerg makes units, but the protoss isn't doing the 4-5 gate pressure then the zerg's economy is going to be worse then protoss due to making useless units, but if the zerg doesn't make units and the protoss does do 4-5 gate pressure this can be game ending.
Something the zerg player should be doing is have control of the watch towers, have overlords in the common pylon locations and have some lings scouting around everywhere for hidden pylons. While doing this the zerg should be droning the whole time until the zerg sees the protoss move out with the army or the zerg sees pylons going down. Zerg players should be throwing down a roach warren versus gateway expand at about 5:45 - 6 minutes. This is a must as if the protoss player does do a heavy 4-5 gate attack at 6:15, It is very hard to defend this attack with pure speedling unless the zerg player is making them blindly before hand or has static defense. Roach/ling is the better option versus this kind of attack and skipping the roach warren is playing with fire.
Now sacrificing an overlord is very useful versus this opening, sacrificing the overlord at about 5:45-6 minutes is perfect to see tech going up. If zerg doesn't see anything, no stargate, robo, etc then the zerg player should put 1 spore at each base at 6:30-6:45. This is because 99% of the time if the protoss isn't doing a fast 4-5 gate pressure it's going to be stargate or DT. There is the chance of just a robo opener with no stargate/dt, but this isn't very common and this is the best way to proceed if the zerg doesn't scout anything.
If the protoss player doesn't do any sort of early gateway pressure then play the zvp as you normally would. Utilizing the Swarmhost The swarm host is a new unit in Heart of the Swarm, and one many players have not used a lot. This unit is very powerful if used correctly in the Zerg versus Protoss match up. This section of the guide will explain how to use swarm hosts in the most efficient way, and how to beat the dreaded immortal all-in. Getting swarm hosts is by far the easiest way to beat a player going for the immortal all-in, so if you are struggling against that in WoL and don't know how to defeat it in HotS, this section will be of great use to you.
The swarmhost as a unit is designed to control space and be able to contain your opponent. This unit works very well in it's role, and can defend very well. They do require a fair amount of babysitting though, as you do not want to leave them to siege and let the opponent's army get on top of them with a observer.
If your opponents army is starting to move up to the swarmhosts, unburrow and retreat backwards. The Zerg does not want to let his army rest on top because if he hasfour4 colossi, a ton of stalkers and sentries, those swarm hosts are dead and this is not what you want. When retreating, once you can let loose another wave of locusts, you should burrow, then unburrow, and repeat the process as you run away. Sometimes you can go back to where you were as your opponent retreats back to his base.
The best transition when opening swarmhosts is to add corruptors/overseers to the composition. This makes the Zerg army extremely deadly. and it also allows you to snipe obs, and attack colossi. If he starts adding in voidrays, you will have hydralisks to deal with that too.
Using the Swarm host to Defend the Immortal All-in If you follow this build properly, you should be getting swarm hosts out as the Protoss starts moving out. When Zerg sees Protoss moving out, he should have ling support and will be able to bait out force fields with that, or at least slow the push down. Every second you get by delaying the Protoss with zergling support, there could be one extra swarmhost out on the field, which is very useful. Don't lose all the zerglings, and you should be doing well.
Once swarm hosts are out, Zerg should be making sure they're at the right location. For example, if the Zerg player had them at the third, the Protoss could just walk into the natural, forcefields the swarmhosts out, and kill the natural.
Zerg should be using the swarm hosts to keep tabs on where the Protoss player is trying to attack. Most Protoss will try their best not to engage in the area with swarmhosts, so always be ready to uproot the swarm hosts and move to a different position. For the engagement against a immortal all-in, make sure to use your zerglings efficiently.
Utilizing the Swarm host in a Standard Macro Game This section will focus primarily on utilizing swarm hosts throughout a standard macro game. This can be defined as when both players are on three base economies, and there are no two base all-ins. The three base macro stage is when Zerg can become quite aggressive towards the Protoss. You can transition from mutalisks into swarm hosts (14-16 mutalisks then into a swarm host transition can be very powerful). Another option is just going pure swarm hosts without mutalisks. Zerg should make about 8-10 swarmhosts and then move out (with ling support). With the locust upgrade, you will want to assault the third base.
Once the Zerg player gets about 10-13 swarmhosts out, it is time to start adding in corruptors and overseers. At this point, Zerg should be able to send locusts for a while, and Protoss will need a substantial colossi army to deal with this. While the Protoss is acquiring this colossi force to deal with the swarm hosts, Zerg should be mass expanding. Take a fourth, even a fifth or sixth if you are able to safely defend against blink stalkers and drops. The corruptors should be used to snipe observers, colossi, and scout the Protoss army. Do not let them idle waiting for the Protoss to make a move. Look for opportunities to create damage towards their army. If Protoss is pushing out, try to constantly delay them with locusts, and if you need to engage, do it while a new wave of locusts are coming out. The point of swarm hosts in the ZvP match-up is primarily to buy time for the Zerg late game composition.
Facing Stargate Play When going swarm hosts against Protoss, do not start making them immediately if you see stargate play. This is fairly self explanatory, as void rays and phoenixes can just snipe swarm hosts easily. First off, you will need some anti-air out before getting swarm hosts onto the field. This is very simple to deal with though, as you just need to get a hydralisk den to produce around fifteen hydralisks if the Protoss goes the standard five-six phoenix opening. Against void rays/oracles, ten hydras will suffice. Once these hydras are out, start making those swarm hosts, and push once there are around six-seven. At this point, the Zerg should be stopping production of swarm hosts and starting the production of corruptors. When going hydras before corruptors, still remember to get overseers for observer sniping. They are not as good at it as corruptors, but the Protoss might not anticipate it as much. The overall army composition for Zerg will be hydralisk/corruptor/swarmhost until late game, where the Zerg can either transition into ultralisks, or remain with the current composition with infestors added in. This is personal preference for most players.
Transitioning out of Swarmhosts One of the most important things Zerg doesn't want to do is to stay at a corruptor/swarmhost composition for most of the game. Eventually, Protoss will be able to bust the contain, so the Zerg player should be transitioning into infestors, and throwing down some type of hive tech. Around the time Protoss is able to break the Zerg contain, you should be ready for ultralisk production. Don't throw away the swarm hosts though. Although they are not the key unit in the late game, they can still be useful.
The Zerg late game composition against sky Protoss should consist of ultralisks/hydralisks/swarmhosts/corruptors. If the Protoss is getting voidrays, you will need more hydralisks than normal. There isn't much to say here. Just remember to continue expanding, and always be ready to tech switch. Be ready to produce your hive tech when it is available as well.
Using Mutalisks
Mutalisks are one the best tools in the Zerg army. Here we will teach you how to use them effectively in ZvP. There are many options that the Zerg has if he decides to go for mutalisks. He can either stick with them throughout the game and base trade when the Protoss army moves out, or Zerg can use them as a harassment tool in order to get out their hive tech.
First thing Zerg should do when mutalisks get out is harass. Find any weak spot in the Protoss base or army, and pick whatever you can off(sometimes this can kill the Protoss as well). Try to distract the army, and take out bases with zergling attacks, or even isolate his army and take out the stalkers. If you do not harass continuously with mutalisks, there is really no point in building them at all.
If the Zerg is planning on doing a pure mutalisk style, where you get 30+ of them, he will be looking to base trade in order to win. Since you know this is inevitable, be prepared. Send drones over the map to build random hatcheries, rally your units safely, and always keep your muta/ling together in order to kill the Protoss base faster. Try hard to snipe all of the probes as well.
If the Zerg is doing the muta/ling/bane into late game hive style, he should be getting hive fairly fast, usually around 13-15 minutes into the game. Spine crawlers are really important, because if the Protoss moves out before the Zerg players hive tech comes out, you need to delay them with spines and mutalisks as long as possible. For this style you only want around 16-20 mutalisks and then start transitioning out. But in general, with mutalisk styles, Zerg should always remember to mass expand while harassing. Zerg should have at least 5 bases by the time the Protoss moves out to try and kill you. He should still harass with mutalisks once transitioned into hive tech, and eventually allow them to die to free up some supply. Don't just suicide them though; try to get some probes or a major tech structure in exchange for their lives. Also, do not do this before the full transition as you will be very weak without mutalisks.
If you scout stargate tech while going mutalisks, this is still fine, and you can continue making them. Eventually the Protoss will get phoenixes, so be prepared for this. Zerg can do a few things once seeing the Protoss getting phoenix. The Zerg can keep going mutalisks, and eventually add some corruptors, or he can transition out and go with swarm hosts, roach/hydra, or infestors.
Roach/Hydra Composition
When gong for roach/hydralisk, the Zerg is going to eventually need vipers and corruptors and eventually brood lords for the late game. The point of this style is to keep the Protoss deathball small with engagements and aggressive play. As such, Zerg wants to trade cost efficiently with this style.
Do not just sit back with this composition; the longer the game goes on the weaker this composition gets. Make sure to go hive decently fast so you can add vipers to the composition. Roach/hydra/viper is good as long as there are no templar on the field. Once templar hit the field, the viper's effectiveness drops really fast as feedback instantly kills them, or at minimum takes all their energy away. If Protoss has no templar, blinding cloud on the stalker/immortals is great as well as abducting the colossi.
If the Zerg player is able to do damage all game and trade cost effectively, he should be able to get brood lords out fairly easily. Once they are out, the game can be ended. However, it is very important to keep the void ray count down as these will be able to deal with the broodlords very easy. Also, try not to let the Protoss mass up a huge count of templar and colossi, as this is also hard to deal with.
The Late Game
This section is going to be a general overview of the late game.
If the Zerg starts with mutalisks, a common transition into higher tech will consist of zergling/baneling/ultralisk/infestor. When starting mutalisk/zergling/baneling, this is the most common transition. However, you still want a greater spire for the possibility of a tech switch. Since the Zerg has air dominance, the Protoss will most likely not have tempests or void rays, and you should be able to make broodlords.
An example of this would be if he has mass archon/colossi/immortal/zealot with some templar for storm. Zerg would want to get brood lords against this composition instead of going ultra/ling/bane/infestor. But if Protoss is going stalker/colossi/templar, then you would want to go ultralisks, as they are very strong against this composition. The trick here is to understand when you should be going broodlords and when you should be going ultralisks. If Zerg starts out with ultralisks, this does not mean he should not add in broodlords at some point, especially if Protoss is not getting that scary sky toss composition, and is making a pure anti-ultralisk army.
If Zerg is going swarm host/hydra/corruptor, he may want to get brood lords first. If your corruptors are alive and the Protoss has no air, the Zerg should get a greater spire and morph the corruptors into broodlords. Zerg will essentially have killed him if he doesn’t break out of the contain by the time broodlords are morphed. If Protoss has air, then Zerg should get ultras out, but not too many. You can build just a few to soak damage so that splash doesn’t kill your hydras or start killing your swarm hosts if Zerg can’t retreat for whatever reason. Most of the time Zerg will be transitioning into ultras, but brood lords are a good option as well.
Hopefully this is clear, but if not feel free to shoot us some questions for clarification.
Best way to Fight Sky Toss The composition of templar/voidray/colo or tempest/colo/templar/voidray. The dreaded composition that zergs are struggling versus right now. This is a strategy that I have finally found out how to fight and beat in a head on engagement.If the zerg can deny this composition that's better, but if not the best way to fight it is to go the composition of ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper.
So the zerg needs to have approximately 12 swarmhosts, 3-5 ultralisks 4-6 vipers, rest hydralisks. The best way to use the composition is to have ultras + swarmhosts locusts go first and then send in hydras with the vipers abducting colossi or the air units. The swarmhost locust + ultralisks will tank damage and kill colossi/templar pretty easily and that leaves just hydralisks which can deal with mass voidray/tempest as long as the zerg can use vipers to abduct as well on tempest/carrier. Now in a straight up 200/200 fight the zerg will lose all the hydralisks, but the remax will crush the left over air of the protoss and thus the zerg will have defeated that composition.
On March 14 2013 04:01 beetlelisk wrote: Sweeeeeeet What do you think about moving Swarm Hosts around through Nydus Network/Worms? What do you think about baneling drops on mineral lines?
I think nydus can be good but not as a main thing. For example the way TLO plays swarmhosts with nydus/queen I dislike heavily. In a late game situation I do think nydus can be good to be super mobile, but not as a mid game build.
Eh baneling drops on mineral lines died out of fashion I think they are good if your opponent doesn't see it coming, but most tosses open stargate anyway so I don't like it personally.
It seems the guide is geared towards forge/fe toss openings, one question,
How do you deal with Toss that are opening gateway/cyber core first above the ramp rather than forge/FE? It seems to give them many options as they can threaten many varieties of early pressure to all-in 4 gates or just expand. My specific issue is not when the early pressure occurs because it's easily scouted and defended. It's when they force you to two base and even temporarily contain you with non-commital stalker or zealot/moma core that looks very similar to a one base all-in but turns out to just be an expo. Behind this they've got out their own natural expand and often moved into pheonix and a quick 3rd while adding in robo tech and moving into the really tough to deal with deathball.
I find it tough to scout whether the all-in is coming or whether it's just a pressure expand or a slightly later expand all-in. since the early stalker can chase away overlords and lings & the cyber is above the ramp so you can't spot the chrono's. I feel like it's a gamble for zerg on whether to defend or macro. With moma core it's extremely easy to feign aggression and get a zerg to over-defend which leaves us unable to defend a later two or three base timing.
I'm playing with a gasless 3 base with much later gas like 4 around the 7:30 mark and adding in the last two by 8:30 that rely's on mass queen/slow lings to defend while taking a 4th and going into hyper-agressive mid-game pressure which has been reasonably successful.
I've been thinking a two base swarmhost/queen opening might work decently against this type of toss opening as well. What is your preferred response to this type of opening from toss?
Great guide Blade, I appreciate all the work you put in. Was wondering about drone scouting in zvt. On generic 2 and 4 player maps, when are you sending out the drone scout? And when you send out the drone, what's the first priority, look for proxies or look for gas?
Can you please help me understand better your approach against a stargate opening in a zvp? If I get this correctly, you advice to delay lair to 7:30, then go lair, hydra den, make 10 of them, then go corruptors. All is clear and good, but by when my hydras are out, aren't we already facing an unwieldy number of void rays to deal with just hydras if he just skip phoenixes? That instakill button burns thru hydras in no time. If he went phoenixes, it's not that big an issue as those are easily countered with a 2x number of hydra in my experience (with queen support it's even easier), but in middle game I find void rays to be very hard to counter, unless he accepts a base trade. And as you highlight later, going into late game with a skytoss is something you should just try to avoid as we don't really have any reliable way to won against such a deathball yet.
Also, in zvz, I've been recently experimenting with going burrowed banes to easily counter an early ling attack, but I'm not convinced burrow is truly worth its cost with the mutacentric metagame I'm seeing now. Have you ever tried that?
On March 14 2013 04:11 Innovation wrote: Hi Blade, Thanks for the awesome guide.
It seems the guide is geared towards forge/fe toss openings, one question,
How do you deal with Toss that are opening gateway/cyber core first above the ramp rather than forge/FE? It seems to give them many options as they can threaten many varieties of early pressure to all-in 4 gates or just expand. My specific issue is not when the early pressure occurs because it's easily scouted and defended. It's when they force you to two base and even temporarily contain you with non-commital stalker or zealot/moma core that looks very similar to a one base all-in but turns out to just be an expo. Behind this they've got out their own natural expand and often moved into pheonix and a quick 3rd while adding in robo tech and moving into the really tough to deal with deathball.
I find it tough to scout whether the all-in is coming or whether it's just a pressure expand or a slightly later expand all-in. since the early stalker can chase away overlords and lings & the cyber is above the ramp so you can't spot the chrono's. I feel like it's a gamble for zerg on whether to defend or macro. With moma core it's extremely easy to feign aggression and get a zerg to over-defend which leaves us unable to defend a later two or three base timing.
I'm playing with a gasless 3 base with much later gas like 4 around the 7:30 mark and adding in the last two by 8:30 that rely's on mass queen/slow lings to defend while taking a 4th and going into hyper-agressive mid-game pressure which has been reasonably successful.
I've been thinking a two base swarmhost/queen opening might work decently against this type of toss opening as well. What is your preferred response to this type of opening from toss?
Finding out if he's doing an all in or not is the most important factor. If he goes gate first you should always get your gas and get fast speedlings, this makes it easier to hold a 4 gate and keep map presence. To find out if he is all inning or not you should see him starting his natural at typical times (before 5 minutes normally), that normally indicates some sort of all in is incoming. You should have an overlord that can check his nexus timing so that if he does throw it down later you will see it. If he does and you prepared for an all in DON"T freak out. You have to remember his natural is super late so just drone and you are fine (of course keep check on his army movements).
Once you see his nexus go down I would go start a third and put guys back on gas at 7 minutes and get a 2nd + third gas. I would also place 1 spore at the natural encase of DT's or stargate play.
On March 14 2013 04:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Great guide Blade, I appreciate all the work you put in. Was wondering about drone scouting in zvt. On generic 2 and 4 player maps, when are you sending out the drone scout? And when you send out the drone, what's the first priority, look for proxies or look for gas?
On a 2 player map my 10nth drone is going to be scouting for proxies and then his base. On a 4 player map I 10nth drone scout but don't really check for proxies except I will scout the center first as that is the common proxy location on 4 player maps.
On March 14 2013 04:27 NeuroNiky wrote: First of all, thanks for the great guide!
Can you please help me understand better your approach against a stargate opening in a zvp? If I get this correctly, you advice to delay lair to 7:30, then go lair, hydra den, make 10 of them, then go corruptors. All is clear and good, but by when my hydras are out, aren't we already facing an unwieldy number of void rays to deal with just hydras if he just skip phoenixes? That instakill button burns thru hydras in no time. If he went phoenixes, it's not that big an issue as those are easily countered with a 2x number of hydra in my experience (with queen support it's even easier), but in middle game I find void rays to be very hard to counter, unless he accepts a base trade. And as you highlight later, going into late game with a skytoss is something you should just try to avoid as we don't really have any reliable way to won against such a deathball yet.
Also, in zvz, I've been recently experimenting with going burrowed banes to easily counter an early ling attack, but I'm not convinced burrow is truly worth its cost with the mutacentric metagame I'm seeing now. Have you ever tried that?
No he won't have too many voidrays, and the corruptors are to focus the colossi down. The colossi are the main focus as if you kill those voidrays are something you can deal with. Contrary to popular belief right now hydralisks do beat voidrays in an engagement, if you can get rid of the splash you will be able to kill the voids with hydralisks.
Something I am experimenting with at the moment is skipping spire and going straight viper with swarmhost/hydra. For obvious reasons this isn't in the guide because I am not sure if this is better or not, I feel it will be, but don't know for sure.
In zvz early burrow isn't worth the cost unless you aren't going to go mutalisks. I never do it and I don't think burrowed banes are worth it either just feels like a waste of gas honestly.
On March 14 2013 04:32 Skytt wrote: Nice guide Blade, the replay links for ZvZ and ZvP are broken though!
If a robotics bay is spotted, the Zerg should not start the lair any later than 7:20. This is for the simple reason that there is a possibility the Protoss can immortal all-in.
you mean robotics facility........right? rofl (robo facility = where you build robo units from, robo bay is the upgrade one/requirement for collosi --)
On March 14 2013 06:30 Beakie wrote: Can't watch any replays. Are they from beta?
They are and ah I didn't test one as it said it would disconnect me from bnet to watch and just tested it doesn't work. Hm that blows will put up new replays asap once I get more games xD
This is fantastic, big shout out to blade and those who helped him put this together, the accessible format/table of contents makes it so much easier to read. Excellent overview :D
Very nice guide. I know a lot of Zergs are having major problems against protoss, so this will help them out. Engaging a late game protoss composition is really hard; zergs needs to split their hydras and corruptors when engaging them just like terran had to do since ever.
what about ultra/muta to fight voidray ht composition ? muta are fast and can be microed to dodge the storms + they regen fast. I feel like hydra ultra is don't efficient at all due to hydra blocking way too much the ultras...
On March 14 2013 09:12 Insoleet wrote: what about ultra/muta to fight voidray ht composition ? muta are fast and can be microed to dodge the storms + they regen fast. I feel like hydra ultra is don't efficient at all due to hydra blocking way too much the ultras...
if you keep going mutas into the lategame, you will probably be facing a pheonix based air composition, not voidray
On March 14 2013 09:12 Insoleet wrote: what about ultra/muta to fight voidray ht composition ? muta are fast and can be microed to dodge the storms + they regen fast. I feel like hydra ultra is don't efficient at all due to hydra blocking way too much the ultras...
No muta don't fight mass voids very cost effectively imo and it's just not that great as a counter to templar/voidray either. Swarmhost/hydra/ultra is a much much stronger composition vs voidray/templar.
Thanks so much for this blade, great guide! (as always)
One question about infestors, when you're using them with SHs and hydras vs toss, what exactly are you doing with them? Is it fungaling to root the whole army in place, chain-fungals on the voids or throwing down ITs at big engagements?
In ZvZ when going for Mutas I often end up with a huge excess of larvae when my two bases are saturated. Should I take my third earlier? Mass Speedlings (if this, what do I do with them if he's defensive?)? Does it just mean my Lair is too late?
In any matchup (mostly ZvP) is there a max amount of Swarm Hosts where you don't want any more?
Really appreciate this guide. Would have taken a lot of trial by loss to figure this out on my own. Hope you write more guides later as the meta changes and patches change things. Cheers and thanks again.
On March 14 2013 18:50 ForumErik wrote: This guide is so good it makes me cry ;_;
Couple of questions though!
In ZvZ when going for Mutas I often end up with a huge excess of larvae when my two bases are saturated. Should I take my third earlier? Mass Speedlings (if this, what do I do with them if he's defensive?)? Does it just mean my Lair is too late?
In any matchup (mostly ZvP) is there a max amount of Swarm Hosts where you don't want any more?
Might edit with more :>
Once again thanks for writing this!
In zvz once you saturate both bases you should be taking a third + massing speedling either to put pressure on him or to defend against his pressure.
If he's defensive try being aggressive yourself no reason not to as you don't have to commit if you don't think you can.
I would recommend about 12-14 swarmhosts at the most. I have found that to be the perfect number that you want as a zerg :D
On March 14 2013 18:52 TOP_Paper wrote: Really appreciate this guide. Would have taken a lot of trial by loss to figure this out on my own. Hope you write more guides later as the meta changes and patches change things. Cheers and thanks again.
You do not have to worry about that, just like in wol I well keep making guides when there is a new meta or something .
To further improve it, here are some spelling/grammar/wording mistakes that could use fixing:
Detailed Explanation of the Build
"doing a 8 minute marine/marauder/hellbat timing": "a" should be "an"
"a bit later then normal as well.": "then" should be "than"
"Since Zerg's normally don’t know": "Zerg's" should be "Zergs"
"is safest bet": missing "the" or "your" after "is"
"just in-case": "-" should be " " (a space)
Dealing with the Early Game
"What the Zerg should do is once": "is" should be removed
"a couple SCV kills": missing "of" after "couple"
"three-four reapers": "three-four" should be "3-4" (for consistency with earlier text)
"worry about the drops anymore": "anymore" should be "any more"
"happening anymore": "anymore" should be "any more"
"they need to make to not over-drone": missing "sure" after "make"
"it is fine to just sack it": "sack" should be "sac" or "sacrifice" (you sack something when you raze e.g. an enemy fort to the ground)
"far very far ahead": first "far" should be removed
Mid Game Strategies
"dealing with the viking.": "viking" should be "vikings"
"to as few bases for as long as possible": "to as" should be "to a"
"Terrans are make vikings to counter vipers": "are" should be "will" or "are going to"
Late Game Transitions: Roach/Ling/Bane/Swarmhost into Ultra/Broodlord
"This is a much stronger defensive unit composition then aggressive": should be "This unit composition is much stronger used defensively than aggressively"
"a strong enough army to take his head on": "take his" should be "face it"
"show case": should be "showcase"
That does it for the versus Terran section. I might add more for the versus Zerg and versus Protoss sections later.
I find it a bit strange that you didn't mention Infestors in the mid game anywhere. Yes, they are a lot weaker, but I still think that they have their uses. I mean, as you said Roach/Ling/Baneling/Swarm Hosts are used defensively(usually), but with Infestors instead of Swarm Hosts, or even adding couple of Infestors, to that army with a little less Roaches/Banelings/Swarm Hosts as a trade off, you can be aggressive as well. And they can delay the pushes even better together with Swarm Hosts.
What do you think?
And yes, what do you think about Roach/Hydra vs. Terran? Many Korean pros are using that composition against the Terran players, and they actually have success, even though it isn't easy, and it has many weaknesses, and you really need to pick up good engagements with good flanking. Also, in one of your videos you said that you don't think that Roaches aren't good with Hydras, and that you will explain that later, but you have never really explained it(or I didn't hear about it).
On March 14 2013 19:43 Ramiz1989 wrote: Great guide! Was hoping for something like this!
I find it a bit strange that you didn't mention Infestors in the mid game anywhere. Yes, they are a lot weaker, but I still think that they have their uses. I mean, as you said Roach/Ling/Baneling/Swarm Hosts are used defensively(usually), but with Infestors instead of Swarm Hosts, or even adding couple of Infestors, to that army with a little less Roaches/Banelings/Swarm Hosts as a trade off, you can be aggressive as well. And they can delay the pushes even better together with Swarm Hosts.
What do you think?
And yes, what do you think about Roach/Hydra vs. Terran? Many Korean pros are using that composition against the Terran players, and they actually have success, even though it isn't easy, and it has many weaknesses, and you really need to pick up good engagements with good flanking. Also, in one of your videos you said that you don't think that Roaches aren't good with Hydras, and that you will explain that later, but you have never really explained it(or I didn't hear about it).
Infestors midgame aren't very reliable compared to before. In midgame you tended to have very few infestors and relied on them to gather energy/get good fungals while teching fast (zvp/zvt). Now they have a high chance to miss, teching too fast isn't necessarily useful ZvT/bad ZvP so infestor midgame isn't that great.
Roach hydra makes engaging a lot easier ZvT since you don't have to flank compared to muta ling bane, mines aren't as big of a headache and roach hydra viper is super strong in straight up fights. However, roach hydra is much worse to defend multi drops and are awful against pure bio without spellcaster support (viper/infestor, although infestor isn't very good vs pure bio anyway). Tactics like engaging outside your base -> doom dropping into your main once out of vision or something makes roach hydra really bad later on so zergs should shy away from it really.
On March 14 2013 19:43 Ramiz1989 wrote: Great guide! Was hoping for something like this!
I find it a bit strange that you didn't mention Infestors in the mid game anywhere. Yes, they are a lot weaker, but I still think that they have their uses. I mean, as you said Roach/Ling/Baneling/Swarm Hosts are used defensively(usually), but with Infestors instead of Swarm Hosts, or even adding couple of Infestors, to that army with a little less Roaches/Banelings/Swarm Hosts as a trade off, you can be aggressive as well. And they can delay the pushes even better together with Swarm Hosts.
What do you think?
And yes, what do you think about Roach/Hydra vs. Terran? Many Korean pros are using that composition against the Terran players, and they actually have success, even though it isn't easy, and it has many weaknesses, and you really need to pick up good engagements with good flanking. Also, in one of your videos you said that you don't think that Roaches aren't good with Hydras, and that you will explain that later, but you have never really explained it(or I didn't hear about it).
Infestors midgame aren't very reliable compared to before. In midgame you tended to have very few infestors and relied on them to gather energy/get good fungals while teching fast (zvp/zvt). Now they have a high chance to miss, teching too fast isn't necessarily useful ZvT/bad ZvP so infestor midgame isn't that great.
Roach hydra makes engaging a lot easier ZvT since you don't have to flank compared to muta ling bane, mines aren't as big of a headache and roach hydra viper is super strong in straight up fights. However, roach hydra is much worse to defend multi drops and are awful against pure bio without spellcaster support (viper/infestor, although infestor isn't very good vs pure bio anyway). Tactics like engaging outside your base -> doom dropping into your main once out of vision or something makes roach hydra really bad later on so zergs should shy away from it really.
Good answer, but that is strange, even before the HotS, people were saying that Roach Hydra composition work the best vs. pure Bio without Siege Tanks. As long as you don't mass Roaches(make like 15 of them since they only soak damage and have terrible dps), and mass Hydras, you can take on Bio army. That is what I've been told, and what I've seen from many HotS games so far, but when the Siege Tanks are out, half of your army evaporates even before you manage to attack.
You are right, but I think that there is something else, obviously, since Koreans wouldn't go Roach Hydra as much as they do if it was that bad.
Really can't overstate how good Mutas are right now in ZvP midgame. Those things are ouchy and annoying- if nothing else, you can frustrate a Toss into a blinding rage and force him to do stupid things.
On March 14 2013 22:59 Crownlol wrote: Really can't overstate how good Mutas are right now in ZvP midgame. Those things are ouchy and annoying- if nothing else, you can frustrate a Toss into a blinding rage and force him to do stupid things.
You are overreacting, lol. :D The Phoenixes with 5(7) range are equally annoying for Zerg players. Dancing around, killing Queens, Overlords, Drones, other units etc, with no real way to stop them because they are even faster than Mutalisks.
however, theres one thing that i disagree with in the build sections. for most every timing you're basing it off of the ingame timer rather than the food count. while this is fine most of the time (and required sometimes, rw in zvp) i really would prefer you to use food counts so its easier to understand why you're doing what youre doing.
gas timings for example. why would you build 2 gas at x time? who know? you're doing it because its part of the build. but if you took 2 gas at 36 suddenly you're just like "oh! i guess THATS the drone count where i can support 2 gas!"
This is a classy guide! Thanks blade + editing/graphics team.
How did it feel to make meta-game? :D
Edit* Can further detail be added concerning dealing with widow mines? I'm really too nervous to go ling/bling vs. terran. It's way too risky that they will all die instantly.
The only good response I saw was life's micro against Mvp during the Blizz showmatch... but it seems unlikely I could pull that level of technical control off.
This guide helped me so much, especially in ZvT where I was so lost.
Roach/ling/baneling into swarm host is something I'd never tried, and...what can I say it's amazing. I haven't lost doing that, it seems good against everything.
Swarm hosts are imba, there I said it. Once people get more used to them they'll be a dominant unit in ZvP and ZvT.
On March 14 2013 22:59 Crownlol wrote: Really can't overstate how good Mutas are right now in ZvP midgame. Those things are ouchy and annoying- if nothing else, you can frustrate a Toss into a blinding rage and force him to do stupid things.
Yeah if protoss doesn't open stargate mutalisks are insanely good, sadly 99.9% of the time most protosses will open stargate (there is no reason not to it's a strong opener right now anyway) and going mutas is suicidal verse a stargate protoss.
On March 15 2013 00:38 tili wrote: This is a classy guide! Thanks blade + editing/graphics team.
How did it feel to make meta-game? :D
Edit* Can further detail be added concerning dealing with widow mines? I'm really too nervous to go ling/bling vs. terran. It's way too risky that they will all die instantly.
The only good response I saw was life's micro against Mvp during the Blizz showmatch... but it seems unlikely I could pull that level of technical control off.
Well I don't think going roach/hydra is a good response the best way is to send a pack of 5-6 lings or get swarmhosts to deal with widow mines. No easier way sadly xD
On March 15 2013 01:27 MilesTeg wrote: This guide helped me so much, especially in ZvT where I was so lost.
Roach/ling/baneling into swarm host is something I'd never tried, and...what can I say it's amazing. I haven't lost doing that, it seems good against everything.
Swarm hosts are imba, there I said it. Once people get more used to them they'll be a dominant unit in ZvP and ZvT.
hehe their really strong, but I don't think imba. You do have to remember that swarmhosts were very rarely used in zvt bio so terrans will have to adjust like protosses to deal with them.
Are you going to add more stuff regarding widow mines? For example, you say to bring an overseer along with your mutalisk harassment to make sure not to die to widow mines, but you don't say anything else on the subject.
Thank you thank you thank you. Was tearing my hair out against Protoss it was so frustrating not having any clue what to do. This should help immensely.
On March 15 2013 03:13 Fencar wrote: Are you going to add more stuff regarding widow mines? For example, you say to bring an overseer along with your mutalisk harassment to make sure not to die to widow mines, but you don't say anything else on the subject.
Widow Mines are the pressing issue in TvZ right now and that's why I don't think Zergling, Baneling, XXX compositions are as viable now as they once were compared to Roach, Hydra, XXX compositions because it's extremely difficult to push out of your base vs Bio/Mine play. Going straight for Speedlings may be good vs Reapers but you are going to regret not having Roaches as soon as Mines are in play.
On March 15 2013 03:13 Fencar wrote: Are you going to add more stuff regarding widow mines? For example, you say to bring an overseer along with your mutalisk harassment to make sure not to die to widow mines, but you don't say anything else on the subject.
Widow Mines are the pressing issue in TvZ right now and that's why I don't think Zergling, Baneling, XXX compositions are as viable now as they once were compared to Roach, Hydra, XXX compositions because it's extremely difficult to push out of your base vs Bio/Mine play. Going straight for Speedlings may be good vs Reapers but you are going to regret not having Roaches as soon as Mines are in play.
I disagree. I do plan on adding a new section or modifying a section of muta/ling/bane into swarmhost. I have yet to lose with it (am like 11-0 which isn't a big sample size obviously). I have been beating bio + widow mine no problem. I would recommend watching the zvt replays I put up to show case it.
I do like roaches though as an early/mid gamet hing but once mutas are out I do not make any more roaches whatsoever and just go muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost which is very powerful. Swarmhosts are good when you can deal with drops with other units and they are super useful vs bio + widow mine play.
To deal with the widow mines with ling/bane/muta while waiting for swarmhosts is to send small packs to detonate and try not to engage for as long as possible while either waiting for swarmhosts, or the terran to give you a favorable exchange.
I do agree bio + widow mine is incredibly powerful and very unforgiving especially if you don't know there are mines there xD
Also wow I didn't realize I didn't put any widow mine section thought for sure I put a bio + widow mine woops I will have that put in sometime soon. Expect this addition today or tomorrow.
On March 15 2013 04:19 Keith1983 wrote: The guide is great, but the replays are from beta so unwatchable? Sorry if I am wrong and\or if this has been mentioned.
I put a new set of replays yesterday just download the new links those games were played literally since hots was released
I feel like you dont need to take gas when the terran goes for a reaper(not proxied) since if the map inst very small he will only have 1 reaper in your base before your queens spawns and after that you can just make more queens and even spread creep with one of the first queen.
... and they build very fast. After you get these out, you can start making swarm hosts, and start to become aggressive while waiting for your spire to finish. An example:
When your +1 carapace is almost done, get a 2nd evolution chamber, and for ranged upgrades, upgrading +2 carapace and +1 ranged going ...
... and they build very fast. After you get these out, you can start making swarm hosts, and start to become aggressive while waiting for your spire to finish. An example:
When your +1 carapace is almost done, get a 2nd evolution chamber, and for ranged upgrades, upgrading +2 carapace and +1 ranged going ...
... and they build very fast. After you get these out, you can start making swarm hosts, and start to become aggressive while waiting for your spire to finish. An example:
When your +1 carapace is almost done, get a 2nd evolution chamber, and for ranged upgrades, upgrading +2 carapace and +1 ranged going ...
where is the example? :O
ROFL, that cracked me up. xD
haha I meant to remove that when I was modifying that section woops.
On March 14 2013 09:12 Insoleet wrote: what about ultra/muta to fight voidray ht composition ? muta are fast and can be microed to dodge the storms + they regen fast. I feel like hydra ultra is don't efficient at all due to hydra blocking way too much the ultras...
No muta don't fight mass voids very cost effectively imo and it's just not that great as a counter to templar/voidray either. Swarmhost/hydra/ultra is a much much stronger composition vs voidray/templar.
I'm still getting melted away vs VR+Zealot+Multiple Colossi. With Roach+Hydra+Swarm Host. I feel like you really need a fast tech to Corruptors.
I will need more practice I guess, but Void Ray just seem to melt down everything so fast.
On March 14 2013 09:12 Insoleet wrote: what about ultra/muta to fight voidray ht composition ? muta are fast and can be microed to dodge the storms + they regen fast. I feel like hydra ultra is don't efficient at all due to hydra blocking way too much the ultras...
No muta don't fight mass voids very cost effectively imo and it's just not that great as a counter to templar/voidray either. Swarmhost/hydra/ultra is a much much stronger composition vs voidray/templar.
I'm still getting melted away vs VR+Zealot+Multiple Colossi. With Roach+Hydra+Swarm Host. I feel like you really need a fast tech to Corruptors.
I will need more practice I guess, but Void Ray just seem to melt down everything so fast.
You should be either going fast vipers or corruptors when going swarmhost/hydra against colossi play. If you don't you will die to it xD
Great guide. Thanks a lot for that! The build against terran is based on the opening of the terran. So whats the usual gas timing for those reaper builds?
Edit:
For ZvT I like Muta over Infestors, so if I understand correctly for me it's basicly like this.. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
On March 15 2013 22:03 Drimacus wrote: Great guide. Thanks a lot for that! The build against terran is based on the opening of the terran. So whats the usual gas timing for those reaper builds?
Edit:
For ZvT I like Muta over Infestors, so if I understand correctly for me it's basicly like this.. Please correct me if I'm wrong. + Show Spoiler +
That is actually pretty damn nice. You can make it for ZvZ and ZvP too, and then Blade can add it to the original post as the end note. :D
Hey blade, what do you think of DRG's 10 roach opener for hots? (zvt)
Personally, it's been my go-to opener just because it makes me feel very safe versus terran pressure, and allows me to absolutely shit on them half the time.
Having played during the beta extensively, I started relying on more aggressive openers and playstyles to try and delay the lategame, simply because I had a shit time winning once it got there.
Anyway, I'm only speaking from a mid-master perspective, and was wondering what you thought of it as a GM.
EDIT: What do you think of mass ling in zvz? I played with a bit in the beta, running off only two gas for upgrades, and then pumping zergling off of 3 + hatcheries, followed by as many mutli pronged attacks as you can possibly pull off.
On March 16 2013 05:16 InfCereal wrote: Hey blade, what do you think of DRG's 10 roach opener for hots? (zvt)
Personally, it's been my go-to opener just because it makes me feel very safe versus terran pressure, and allows me to absolutely shit on them half the time.
Having played during the beta extensively, I started relying on more aggressive openers and playstyles to try and delay the lategame, simply because I had a shit time winning once it got there.
Anyway, I'm only speaking from a mid-master perspective, and was wondering what you thought of it as a GM.
EDIT: What do you think of mass ling in zvz? I played with a bit in the beta, running off only two gas for upgrades, and then pumping zergling off of 3 + hatcheries, followed by as many mutli pronged attacks as you can possibly pull off.
I don't like a 10 roach opener I think that's kinda bad especially if the terran can see that coming (which they will with reapers which every terran should open).
For mass ling in zvz it's pretty much an all in if you are doing that as you are spending a lot of larva on lings, less drones and obviously you aren't teching very much is my assumption if that's all you are doing. I am not a fan of it either. It's a strategy you may want to use every once in awhile but as a main strategy I would highly recommend not doing that.
Bumping this real fast to let you all know I added a bio + widow mine section. Hopefully put enough detail in there, for those to lazy to look for it you can view it in spoilers here.
The bio + widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of tvz. It is superior to tanks in the fact that widow mines are super mobile and once drilling claws is upgraded they burrow in 1 second. This makes the bio + widow mine a very strong and hard to engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane with some roaches and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only 1 ling, zerg needs to be sending 4-5 to detonate some mines.
A good terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that they can prevent 1 ling and sometimes even 5 lings from detonating a mine. A terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the zerg. Flanking the terran army is almost a must so that widow mines don't hit all the zergs units. If the zerg can hit from 2 different angles widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would if the zerg attacks in one direction. If the zerg has roaches sending in a roach with a couple lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or 2.
Swarmhosts are a very strong unit verse bio + widow mine, but if you go that composition the zerg needs to be prepared for drop play. Drop play is something that can punish this composition if the zerg isn't prepared for drops he can die. Another composition that can be good is going muta/ling/bane into swarmhost which allows the zerg to deal with drops much, much easier and then swarmhosts deal with widow mines very good due to the locusts being strong and tanking a few shots.
There are a couple replays show casing the muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost transition and how it deals with bio + widow mine so feel free to download those to see it in action.
Oh man, as a Diamond Zerg you just made my brain explode. There's tons of information and it's all put together in a way that makes it really digestible and not a single word seems superfluous. I see myself coming back many times to this thread inbetween games after I get my butt kicked on ladder
On March 16 2013 09:48 Emzeeshady wrote: This is fantastic man!
I would LOVE for a detailed guide on how to beat sky toss because right now I see no way and it is keeping me from making it back to masters -_-.
Make sure to watch the zvp replays there should be a templar/voidray replay in there, I will be adding in some more some time soon which will show case how I crushed voidray/tempests/colo/templar :D
Still having trouble dealing with late game mech. Eventually they have a ton of widow mines + vikings and only a few thors/hellbats. I seem to lose all of my vipers and overseers right as I'm cutting through his hellbats and then the widow mines make quick work of the rest of my army. You have any thoughts on how to deal with this?
On March 16 2013 11:29 Shado. wrote: Blade, amazing guide
Still having trouble dealing with late game mech. Eventually they have a ton of widow mines + vikings and only a few thors/hellbats. I seem to lose all of my vipers and overseers right as I'm cutting through his hellbats and then the widow mines make quick work of the rest of my army. You have any thoughts on how to deal with this?
You should have swarmhosts. Remember swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper is the best composition imo vs mech. And thors/hellbats die to swarmhosts really bad to .
Thanks so much for all your work on this guide! It got me through placement matches (2 vT, 3 vZ).
I have one request for clarification on ZvP.
This section will be most beneficial if you already know the basic ZvP openings.
If you need any more clarification just ask and we will answer!
Where does one find the "basic ZvP openings"? (I first referred to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063#3.0, but your build is different and that guide was made for WoL). I haven't played much 1v1 since the first year of WoL (I play zerg), so I'm not sure exactly what the ZvP opening is supposed to be like now. As a newb I really like having it written out so I can refer to it while I practice. As your guide advised, I checked out the vods and replays and here's what I was able to derive so far:
9 overlord (scout for proxies) 15 pool 16 hatch (can send two drones; one to nat, one to third in case of pylon block at nat) 16 overlord 15 lings (get queen before lings if it's a nexus first FFE) 16 lings 17 queen (inject->tumor->injects) 19 continue droning 21-22 3rd hatch 22 overlord 24 queen (at natural: inject and send to third) 33 overlord 34 queen (at natural)
Is that about right? Also do you have a recommendation for basic openings for facing non-FFE openings in HotS? If you could eventually add or link to basics in this guide that'd be a big help for newbs like me.
Thanks again to you and your editors for all your work!
P.S. One of the three replays, the one named "ZvP Belshir", was actually a ZvZ.
So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things: 1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough) 2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing)
On March 16 2013 14:53 MrLlama wrote: So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things: 1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough) 2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing)
Hm I don't think a 6 gate msc timing will kill a third base if you defend properly. It's definitely harder but you should be able to hold it if you see it coming, I haven't faced much 6 gate but I can normally hold it off on the few times I have faced it with the msc.
To be honest I think it just depends on how fast you scout the gateway all in coming, throwing down a spore isn't a bad idea anymore just because of what tosses do or to have it attack the msc. I could be wrong I would have to face 6 gate a lot more to know but I don't think so but I also haven't played verse it that much.
So as of right now no I don't think it's dead, I think if that were the case I would be facing a lot more 6 gate msc attacks (especially on korea) if it was impossible to hold.
On March 16 2013 14:53 MrLlama wrote: So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things: 1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough) 2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing)
Hm I don't think a 6 gate msc timing will kill a third base if you defend properly. It's definitely harder but you should be able to hold it if you see it coming, I haven't faced much 6 gate but I can normally hold it off on the few times I have faced it with the msc.
To be honest I think it just depends on how fast you scout the gateway all in coming, throwing down a spore isn't a bad idea anymore just because of what tosses do or to have it attack the msc. I could be wrong I would have to face 6 gate a lot more to know but I don't think so but I also haven't played verse it that much.
So as of right now no I don't think it's dead, I think if that were the case I would be facing a lot more 6 gate msc attacks (especially on korea) if it was impossible to hold.
agree and actually think if zerg plays correct there is now no way for P to 2 base all in and win. BUT protoss will now be able to do big 2 base pressure builds into 3rd base with recall. that would be really awesome to see.
the reason behind me saying 2 base allins are dead is burrow on hatchtech and SHs. with SHs sentry immo is dead and with burrow every all in without detection is dead. getting burrow vs no gas natural is basically a free win. if you play a standard bo with 2x gas at 6:00 you will be able to have burrow at 8:50 so you need to stall only for a very close timing window and than laugh about his gateway all in. (i am playing 3 gas at 6:00 and techheavy so will have it ready at 8:40).
even vs blink all in with MSC burrow will help a lot (5 gate blink + MSC pressure will be the new 2 base pressure into 3rd base build which i could see be VERY strong since you basically will not lose a single unit as P with blink and recall and since infestors suck vs blinkstalker now mass stalker have no real counter anymore...well ling muta if you are uncontested but with pressure into 3rd you will have to use your gas for roaches, hydras, SHs or whatever).
so yeah maybe some SG + gateway all in with oracles or voids in combination could be strong but thats about the only 2 base allin i can think of being really strong in HOTS.
On March 14 2013 04:27 NeuroNiky wrote: First of all, thanks for the great guide!
Can you please help me understand better your approach against a stargate opening in a zvp? If I get this correctly, you advice to delay lair to 7:30, then go lair, hydra den, make 10 of them, then go corruptors. All is clear and good, but by when my hydras are out, aren't we already facing an unwieldy number of void rays to deal with just hydras if he just skip phoenixes? That instakill button burns thru hydras in no time. If he went phoenixes, it's not that big an issue as those are easily countered with a 2x number of hydra in my experience (with queen support it's even easier), but in middle game I find void rays to be very hard to counter, unless he accepts a base trade. And as you highlight later, going into late game with a skytoss is something you should just try to avoid as we don't really have any reliable way to won against such a deathball yet.
Also, in zvz, I've been recently experimenting with going burrowed banes to easily counter an early ling attack, but I'm not convinced burrow is truly worth its cost with the mutacentric metagame I'm seeing now. Have you ever tried that?
Just FYI, the void instakill button only gives them a bonus vs armored, so it effectively does nothing vs hydras.
Just wanted to throw a tip in here for you zergs, something I learned playing PvT throughout WOL. Put your tech buildings between your main and nat Instead of behind your main mineral line which is further from your nat. This should be the easiest place to defend and allows your defense of drops to be much more concise.
Zergs seem to be having trouble in hots, dealing with drops. Those buildings behind your main mineral line hurt you vs drop play. They give MM places to tuck into and prevent surrounds, they also make easy targets to snipe with a drop. Obviously as in the op, you also want some static defense or a few units pre positioned. As well as getting those overlords in good places to spot drops.
I lost many games as toss in WOL because I had tech in random corners of my main. Losing your Robo tech because you couldn't walk units from your nat to your main in time is a painful way to lose! Most toss learned long ago to put your tech structures in between the main and nat. Think about what terrans do vs muta play in the sense of how important it is for terran to maintain control of the area between the main and nat. Also, when you pull workers this is also the area they will be headed to. Again this just makes the area you have to defend smaller. Some of this is obviously map dependent, but hopefully you get the idea.
Watching some MLG today, I've seen both toss and zergs get punished for building placement. They are often not able to control the space between the main and nat ( the ramp), defend the workers, and stop tech from being sniped at the same time. They would have a much easier time if the tech was along the route to defend the 2 mineral lines.
On March 16 2013 14:53 MrLlama wrote: So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things: 1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough) 2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing)
Hm I don't think a 6 gate msc timing will kill a third base if you defend properly. It's definitely harder but you should be able to hold it if you see it coming, I haven't faced much 6 gate but I can normally hold it off on the few times I have faced it with the msc.
To be honest I think it just depends on how fast you scout the gateway all in coming, throwing down a spore isn't a bad idea anymore just because of what tosses do or to have it attack the msc. I could be wrong I would have to face 6 gate a lot more to know but I don't think so but I also haven't played verse it that much.
So as of right now no I don't think it's dead, I think if that were the case I would be facing a lot more 6 gate msc attacks (especially on korea) if it was impossible to hold.
I'd love to play with you/watch you play vs some of my protoss friends to see how you hold the 6gate all in in HOTS if that's possible. Feel free to send me a PM
Really great guide, been using all the builds outlined and have had a lot of success because of it. Any chance there will be an extension to this guide with more aggressive builds though? Because that would be great.
First off, great guides - and great youtube channel, your videos have helped me hit mid diamonds (Zerg) in WOL. But with the launch of HOTS i have a minor problem dealing with protoss. My biggest problem at the moment is the toss push with +5 Col, stalkers, zealots & (void rays) that hit just before i'm able to get out my hive tech. I have tried delaying with swamhosts, but doesnt really work for me unless they open stargate. If you could point me in the right direction, i would appreciate it.
Saw Sen get crushed by the Soul Train in MLG today. He didn't make swarm hosts, but tried to defend the sentry immortal all-in with hydras. He was able to delay, but got crushed by a colossi follow up. Now, I'm wondering, against a really well-executed sentry immortal all-in, won't the swarm hosts just die anyway once Protoss gets detection? I guess swarm hosts give you the best chance against the build, but a diligently-scouting Protoss will see your lack of roaches and go more stalker heavy, no? And could then fair much better against the only ling and swarm host army?
I don't know, I just still feel like the sentry immortal all-in is pretty potent, and I don't think the swarm host is such a clear-cut answer as you seem to give it credit for in your guide.
On March 17 2013 15:41 TFS wrote: Saw Sen get crushed by the Soul Train in MLG today. He didn't make swarm hosts, but tried to defend the sentry immortal all-in with hydras. He was able to delay, but got crushed by a colossi follow up. Now, I'm wondering, against a really well-executed sentry immortal all-in, won't the swarm hosts just die anyway once Protoss gets detection? I guess swarm hosts give you the best chance against the build, but a diligently-scouting Protoss will see your lack of roaches and go more stalker heavy, no? And could then fair much better against the only ling and swarm host army?
I don't know, I just still feel like the sentry immortal all-in is pretty potent, and I don't think the swarm host is such a clear-cut answer as you seem to give it credit for in your guide.
hydras are a very VERY bad unit imo and in 99% of the situations not even closely worth their cost and more so never ever worth their supply. once T and P players figured out how to the handle the "new" hydra (which is 100% the same shitty unit oncreep and 95% the same shitty unit offcreep...stalker (without blink), MM, roaches, lings, blings, chargelots, helions, medivacs, phoenix, hell even mines (!!) outrun them offcreep) blizzard will finally have to buff it to a useful level.
only times hydras might be useful will be in an all in scenario ZvP if you do a hydra viper based allin vs robo...thats it. other than that just never build hydras, they suck.
as to SHs: i definetly agree with blade that SHs are a very strong answer to the sentry immo all in. maybe there need to be some tweaks like burrow or +1 carapace or whatever to delay the push but once you get SHs out AND locusts in front of your base imo the push gets crushed.
Does anyone know the opener being used by Jaedong in ZvT. It's a roach push around min 8~ with roach speed, burrow and... i missed first part of the stream so i don't really know.
After doing massive damage in terran's natural he switched to mutas being on 2 bases while third finishes and taking a 4th.
Thanks for the guide blade, I haven't been able to enter the beta so I'm only now starting to catch up on the openings in HotS. I might join a local tournament in two weeks for fun and I want to make sure I won't get all ined out too soon because I didn't know how to respond
Blade, you are sofa king rad for posting this. I'm very much enjoying your streams as well. Keep up with the commentary while streaming...it helps me follow at work. :-)
Awesome job as always blade! Thanks so much for this - I will keep it handy when I start up ladder again.
A few questions on muta/overseer vs. widow mines. If you do happen to spot a clump of widow mines, what do you do? Just avoid them? Are there any circumstances in which you'd choose to engage - maybe if they were the only thing between your mutas and an undefended mineral line? If so how would you normally do it?
Also, have you ever encountered Terrans laying mines for your mutas along possible attack paths, similar to how we might use baneling mines against marines? (Edit: to clarify, I mean out on the map, rather than near your harassment target).
On March 18 2013 10:08 Chutoro wrote: Awesome job as always blade! Thanks so much for this - I will keep it handy when I start up ladder again.
A few questions on muta/overseer vs. widow mines. If you do happen to spot a clump of widow mines, what do you do? Just avoid them? Are there any circumstances in which you'd choose to engage - maybe if they were the only thing between your mutas and an undefended mineral line? If so how would you normally do it?
Also, have you ever encountered Terrans laying mines for your mutas along possible attack paths, similar to how we might use baneling mines against marines? (Edit: to clarify, I mean out on the map, rather than near your harassment target).
If I spot a clump I avoid unless I can get a couple lings, I know 12 mutas can kill a mine and it wont' detonate but if there are 3-4 mines I dont' think you can kill them all fast enough but I could be wrong.
Yes I have faced terrans who did that and I always say "god damnit" lol xD. Make sure to kill the mine so it doesn't do it again.
I didn't really see anything about drone capping in ZvP or ZvT and things like that.
In my opinion Zerg should aim to cap drones extremely early, around 60 drones after important buildings.
Main reasons:
Zerg is gas-heavy, doesn't make much use of minerals. Having 5000 minerals and no gas in bank is worthless.
Allows Zerg to expand to a 4th base earlier because of much earlier units, giving Zerg more gas
Allows Zerg to put pressure on the opponent early, maybe reducing the amount of expansions they have, and also making securing new bases easier for the Zerg.
Allows Zerg to actually have a fighting chance in maxed army battles.
Another hidden benefit comes into play after the opponent mines out his main / nat(especially against Terran) as you will be mining from those for forever.
Because of these factors, I haven't understood people going for the "90-100 drones into loss"-build orders.
On March 16 2013 07:51 blade55555 wrote: Bumping this real fast to let you all know I added a bio + widow mine section. Hopefully put enough detail in there, for those to lazy to look for it you can view it in spoilers here.
The bio + widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of tvz. It is superior to tanks in the fact that widow mines are super mobile and once drilling claws is upgraded they burrow in 1 second. This makes the bio + widow mine a very strong and hard to engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane with some roaches and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only 1 ling, zerg needs to be sending 4-5 to detonate some mines.
A good terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that they can prevent 1 ling and sometimes even 5 lings from detonating a mine. A terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the zerg. Flanking the terran army is almost a must so that widow mines don't hit all the zergs units. If the zerg can hit from 2 different angles widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would if the zerg attacks in one direction. If the zerg has roaches sending in a roach with a couple lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or 2.
Swarmhosts are a very strong unit verse bio + widow mine, but if you go that composition the zerg needs to be prepared for drop play. Drop play is something that can punish this composition if the zerg isn't prepared for drops he can die. Another composition that can be good is going muta/ling/bane into swarmhost which allows the zerg to deal with drops much, much easier and then swarmhosts deal with widow mines very good due to the locusts being strong and tanking a few shots.
There are a couple replays show casing the muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost transition and how it deals with bio + widow mine so feel free to download those to see it in action.
I stand corrected, Life's use of Zergling/Baneling compositions at MLG was surreal, it seems Zergling/Baneling is enough to deal with Reaper/Hellion/Widow Mine alone and a Zergling/Baneling transition to Swarmhosts is unnecessary as Life teched up to Vipers and Ultralisks instead.
On March 18 2013 19:23 Shikyo wrote: I didn't really see anything about drone capping in ZvP or ZvT and things like that.
In my opinion Zerg should aim to cap drones extremely early, around 60 drones after important buildings.
Main reasons:
Zerg is gas-heavy, doesn't make much use of minerals. Having 5000 minerals and no gas in bank is worthless.
Allows Zerg to expand to a 4th base earlier because of much earlier units, giving Zerg more gas
Allows Zerg to put pressure on the opponent early, maybe reducing the amount of expansions they have, and also making securing new bases easier for the Zerg.
Allows Zerg to actually have a fighting chance in maxed army battles.
Another hidden benefit comes into play after the opponent mines out his main / nat(especially against Terran) as you will be mining from those for forever.
Because of these factors, I haven't understood people going for the "90-100 drones into loss"-build orders.
I disagree with you on 60 drones. If you are talking getting 60 drones max throughout the whole games I think that's not the best way to play. I will agree with getting 90 drones by 10 minutes isn't a good thing, but 80-85 drones when on 4-5 bases is perfect. There is a good use of having a mineral bank as well.
Make static defense, that's the great thing about a huge mineral bank it allows you as the zerg to make static defense so drop play/warp prism doesn't tear you apart. Stay on 60 drones and you'll never have the economy to make static defense at all your bases, let alone you get to 5 bases and you might as well not mine gas because you will have more gas then you have minerals unless you are making pure infestor/viper which will not work.
On March 16 2013 07:51 blade55555 wrote: Bumping this real fast to let you all know I added a bio + widow mine section. Hopefully put enough detail in there, for those to lazy to look for it you can view it in spoilers here.
The bio + widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of tvz. It is superior to tanks in the fact that widow mines are super mobile and once drilling claws is upgraded they burrow in 1 second. This makes the bio + widow mine a very strong and hard to engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane with some roaches and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only 1 ling, zerg needs to be sending 4-5 to detonate some mines.
A good terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that they can prevent 1 ling and sometimes even 5 lings from detonating a mine. A terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the zerg. Flanking the terran army is almost a must so that widow mines don't hit all the zergs units. If the zerg can hit from 2 different angles widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would if the zerg attacks in one direction. If the zerg has roaches sending in a roach with a couple lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or 2.
Swarmhosts are a very strong unit verse bio + widow mine, but if you go that composition the zerg needs to be prepared for drop play. Drop play is something that can punish this composition if the zerg isn't prepared for drops he can die. Another composition that can be good is going muta/ling/bane into swarmhost which allows the zerg to deal with drops much, much easier and then swarmhosts deal with widow mines very good due to the locusts being strong and tanking a few shots.
There are a couple replays show casing the muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost transition and how it deals with bio + widow mine so feel free to download those to see it in action.
I stand corrected, Life's use of Zergling/Baneling compositions at MLG was surreal, it seems Zergling/Baneling is enough to deal with Reaper/Hellion/Widow Mine alone and a Zergling/Baneling transition to Swarmhosts is unnecessary as Life teched up to Vipers and Ultralisks instead.
Swarmhosts are never necessary it's just something I really like and find it much easier to use to deal with it. But yes of course you can stay ling/bane never said you had to go swarmhosts was saying a few things you can do to combat widow mines .
On March 16 2013 07:51 blade55555 wrote: Bumping this real fast to let you all know I added a bio + widow mine section. Hopefully put enough detail in there, for those to lazy to look for it you can view it in spoilers here.
The bio + widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of tvz. It is superior to tanks in the fact that widow mines are super mobile and once drilling claws is upgraded they burrow in 1 second. This makes the bio + widow mine a very strong and hard to engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane with some roaches and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only 1 ling, zerg needs to be sending 4-5 to detonate some mines.
A good terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that they can prevent 1 ling and sometimes even 5 lings from detonating a mine. A terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the zerg. Flanking the terran army is almost a must so that widow mines don't hit all the zergs units. If the zerg can hit from 2 different angles widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would if the zerg attacks in one direction. If the zerg has roaches sending in a roach with a couple lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or 2.
Swarmhosts are a very strong unit verse bio + widow mine, but if you go that composition the zerg needs to be prepared for drop play. Drop play is something that can punish this composition if the zerg isn't prepared for drops he can die. Another composition that can be good is going muta/ling/bane into swarmhost which allows the zerg to deal with drops much, much easier and then swarmhosts deal with widow mines very good due to the locusts being strong and tanking a few shots.
There are a couple replays show casing the muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost transition and how it deals with bio + widow mine so feel free to download those to see it in action.
I stand corrected, Life's use of Zergling/Baneling compositions at MLG was surreal, it seems Zergling/Baneling is enough to deal with Reaper/Hellion/Widow Mine alone and a Zergling/Baneling transition to Swarmhosts is unnecessary as Life teched up to Vipers and Ultralisks instead.
Thank you for this guide Blade, it's just what I needed! I already killed a couple of protosses with swarmhost/hydra ^^ (however sloppy my execution may be).
Regarding ZvP, the MLG casters were often saying that the standard 3hatch opening is now "risky" because of the possibility of a mamacore push from the protoss, any comments about that?
On March 19 2013 04:52 PoulsenB wrote: Thank you for this guide Blade, it's just what I needed! I already killed a couple of protosses with swarmhost/hydra ^^ (however sloppy my execution may be).
Regarding ZvP, the MLG casters were often saying that the standard 3hatch opening is now "risky" because of the possibility of a mamacore push from the protoss, any comments about that?
The casters didn't say the three hatch open is risky. They said it was risky that Life put his third hatch down before 4 minutes. He had only started one queen and had zero zerglings. It's about as greedy as you can get without going 3 hatch before pool. I think it's still pretty "standard" to use the three hatch opener, just maybe putting the third hatch down at 4:15-4:30 after you start your second queen and get 2-4 lings.
This is just insight from my low level perspective though, so take it with a grain of salt.
On March 18 2013 10:08 Chutoro wrote: Awesome job as always blade! Thanks so much for this - I will keep it handy when I start up ladder again.
A few questions on muta/overseer vs. widow mines. If you do happen to spot a clump of widow mines, what do you do? Just avoid them? Are there any circumstances in which you'd choose to engage - maybe if they were the only thing between your mutas and an undefended mineral line? If so how would you normally do it?
Also, have you ever encountered Terrans laying mines for your mutas along possible attack paths, similar to how we might use baneling mines against marines? (Edit: to clarify, I mean out on the map, rather than near your harassment target).
If I spot a clump I avoid unless I can get a couple lings, I know 12 mutas can kill a mine and it wont' detonate but if there are 3-4 mines I dont' think you can kill them all fast enough but I could be wrong.
Yes I have faced terrans who did that and I always say "god damnit" lol xD. Make sure to kill the mine so it doesn't do it again.
Damn, I was hoping you'd have some magic solution for me. Let's hope no Terrans read this thread all the way to page 6.
I guess you just have to approach it like preventing proxy pylons - map control to make it hard for them to get out, patrolling lings to spot them and so on. If the Terran is making that many mines it might be time to transition out of mutas anyway.
On March 19 2013 06:16 Henk wrote: So why do we not use BL vs mech anymore? I mean.. Why this weird mixture of roach hydra viper ultra?
Most terrans when hive tech is finished start viking production. I also am not a fan of broodlords in general and I hate making them, terrans now have thors that do better verse broodlords with viking support + raven and the bl's will get crushed. Most terrans I play prepare for the viper/broodlord as soon as my hive finishes so I don't bother. If I see terran not making vikings/thors then sure I will make broodlords, but this is super rare and I find this composition better in everyway (mobility, can engage cost effectively, etc).
Also it's mainly hydra/viper/ultra/swarmhost once it hits late game .
On March 18 2013 10:08 Chutoro wrote: Awesome job as always blade! Thanks so much for this - I will keep it handy when I start up ladder again.
A few questions on muta/overseer vs. widow mines. If you do happen to spot a clump of widow mines, what do you do? Just avoid them? Are there any circumstances in which you'd choose to engage - maybe if they were the only thing between your mutas and an undefended mineral line? If so how would you normally do it?
Also, have you ever encountered Terrans laying mines for your mutas along possible attack paths, similar to how we might use baneling mines against marines? (Edit: to clarify, I mean out on the map, rather than near your harassment target).
If I spot a clump I avoid unless I can get a couple lings, I know 12 mutas can kill a mine and it wont' detonate but if there are 3-4 mines I dont' think you can kill them all fast enough but I could be wrong.
Yes I have faced terrans who did that and I always say "god damnit" lol xD. Make sure to kill the mine so it doesn't do it again.
Damn, I was hoping you'd have some magic solution for me. Let's hope no Terrans read this thread all the way to page 6.
I guess you just have to approach it like preventing proxy pylons - map control to make it hard for them to get out, patrolling lings to spot them and so on. If the Terran is making that many mines it might be time to transition out of mutas anyway.
Well the magical counter would be to send ligns in those locations or put an overseer over there first, but if you don't do that no real way other then what I said .
On March 19 2013 06:16 Henk wrote: So why do we not use BL vs mech anymore? I mean.. Why this weird mixture of roach hydra viper ultra?
Because it is more mobile and pretty good, and mobile is what Mech is having trouble against. Brood Lords aren't bad at all, they are just slow, and with new Seeker Missiles together with Vikings and nerfs to the Infestors, a lot easier to counter. You can still mix few of them into your army, like ~5 is a good number.
It is normal to start a fast lair around 7:20 - 7:30 unless a stargate opening is scouted. If a stargate is scouted, it is fine to delay the lair to 7:30 or later. If a robotics bay is spotted, the Zerg should not start the lair any later than 7:20.
Sorry, just to point out a minor type here: it's Robotics facility not robotics bay, just thought this might be confusing to some beginners. Thanks.
Awesome guide ! :'D One question though , how do you handle the reaper/hellion pressure (after a reaper opening) ? A 7 minute roach warren feels a bit late . :x
On March 19 2013 07:31 Swiipii wrote: Awesome guide ! :'D One question though , how do you handle the reaper/hellion pressure (after a reaper opening) ? A 7 minute roach warren feels a bit late . :x
You should be using speedlings to deal with it. Since speedlings are imo a must verse reaper openings you should use them + 2 queens to defend if they try to push in your natural area or third base. The roach warren is just a defensive purpose like if you see a ton of hellions or a surprise x come out instead of only having lings you can put out roaches. I did this in wol, but it's a must imo in hots due to how many things terran can do.
Also just want to say glad you guys are enjoying the guide and hope it helps you all out a ton! :D
On March 19 2013 06:59 aeligos wrote: "reapers are very powerful in hots"...? LOL
I stopped reading right there.
Yes they are, that's the reason in TvT I never do a 1 rax FE or cc first build anymore, even though they do less damage the no tech lab and healing make them a very powerful unit early game.
On March 19 2013 07:31 Swiipii wrote: Awesome guide ! :'D One question though , how do you handle the reaper/hellion pressure (after a reaper opening) ? A 7 minute roach warren feels a bit late . :x
You should be using speedlings to deal with it. Since speedlings are imo a must verse reaper openings you should use them + 2 queens to defend if they try to push in your natural area or third base. The roach warren is just a defensive purpose like if you see a ton of hellions or a surprise x come out instead of only having lings you can put out roaches. I did this in wol, but it's a must imo in hots due to how many things terran can do.
Also just want to say glad you guys are enjoying the guide and hope it helps you all out a ton! :D
Pretty damn solid guide. I agree with the view on BLs not being that good now which is also exactly a great spot I like for them to be in funwise, they should be a unit used to break a stall when the zerg is ahead ie, something the swarm host was intended to be. They function quite well still at that now but are not really part of the end-all composition zerg is aiming for.
Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Guess you didn't watch leenock? :o. He won with swarmhosts vs some foreign toss. You'll see most zergs used them badly honestly
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Guess you didn't watch leenock? :o. He won with swarmhosts vs some foreign toss. You'll see most zergs used them badly honestly
i was about to say the same thing, they are really good vs protoss. Just wait and see.
On March 19 2013 12:21 BoZiffer wrote: Well done Blade. Quality stuff as always. You going to post more YouTube vids? Last ones were really good as well.
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
On March 19 2013 14:17 Riner1212 wrote: All i have been doing is just using the same exact units from WOL and i hardly use any HOTS units. cuz the build orders from WOL are all i know.
Hard to improve or learn new build orders if you refuse to practice it xD
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
Because there are no terrans who want to write guides.
I just want this to be known that I wasn't forced to write this, hell I wasn't even asked to I wrote it myself got help from TL members for editing/formatting because this place is badass and then this was created. This wasn't forced upon anyone, nobody who did this was forced to work on this zerg guide, I wrote it, I got help for editing/formatting and then I released it. .
Ok, so I really hate to use times because people do some crazy shit and even when it's a standard opening, I'm just really bad at remembering times. What triggers do you use when you're not using straight times to put down your buildings? For example, I had a game where a guy just made a random ass batch of lings and made a third queen to deny scouting, so i was dumping gas and minerals into dealing with this harassment, and now my lair and 2/3 gas timings are all screwed up because I couldn't really get them at the time specified and be ok versus the harass, then I didn't know when the right time to get gas was, and it was all a big mess.
On March 19 2013 14:17 Riner1212 wrote: All i have been doing is just using the same exact units from WOL and i hardly use any HOTS units. cuz the build orders from WOL are all i know.
Hard to improve or learn new build orders if you refuse to practice it xD
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
Because there are no terrans who want to write guides.
I just want this to be known that I wasn't forced to write this, hell I wasn't even asked to I wrote it myself got help from TL members for editing/formatting because this place is badass and then this was created. This wasn't forced upon anyone, nobody who did this was forced to work on this zerg guide, I wrote it, I got help for editing/formatting and then I released it. .
So in a nutshell, as a terran player basically i have to analyze your guide and work my way back from it, to see which options will help me win the game vs zerg.
On March 19 2013 14:17 Riner1212 wrote: All i have been doing is just using the same exact units from WOL and i hardly use any HOTS units. cuz the build orders from WOL are all i know.
Hard to improve or learn new build orders if you refuse to practice it xD
On March 19 2013 14:16 Riner1212 wrote:
On March 19 2013 13:37 Torrathyr wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:52 blade55555 wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
Because there are no terrans who want to write guides.
I just want this to be known that I wasn't forced to write this, hell I wasn't even asked to I wrote it myself got help from TL members for editing/formatting because this place is badass and then this was created. This wasn't forced upon anyone, nobody who did this was forced to work on this zerg guide, I wrote it, I got help for editing/formatting and then I released it. .
So in a nutshell, as a terran player basically i have to analyze your guide and work my way back from it, to see which options will help me win the game vs zerg.
Nah I would more say bug terran players to write guides tbh. I don't know why terrans don't have guide writers :/.
On March 19 2013 14:23 Arisen wrote: Ok, so I really hate to use times because people do some crazy shit and even when it's a standard opening, I'm just really bad at remembering times. What triggers do you use when you're not using straight times to put down your buildings? For example, I had a game where a guy just made a random ass batch of lings and made a third queen to deny scouting, so i was dumping gas and minerals into dealing with this harassment, and now my lair and 2/3 gas timings are all screwed up because I couldn't really get them at the time specified and be ok versus the harass, then I didn't know when the right time to get gas was, and it was all a big mess.
Well in those type of games there is no set time or anything to do anything. Those type of games go completely by feel. I couldn't tell you what to do because every game is different and you just have to feel when you think it's the right time to go lair, get muta, etc in those type of situations.
I could analyze the game hypothetically and tell you, but the next time you are in that situation will be completely different from the replay as things happen differently.
The timings I have are for more normal games, when there is weird stuff happening (proxy 2 rax, proxy gates, etc) you just have to adapt to the situation.
On March 19 2013 14:17 Riner1212 wrote: All i have been doing is just using the same exact units from WOL and i hardly use any HOTS units. cuz the build orders from WOL are all i know.
Hard to improve or learn new build orders if you refuse to practice it xD
On March 19 2013 14:16 Riner1212 wrote:
On March 19 2013 13:37 Torrathyr wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:52 blade55555 wrote:
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
Not everyone has the time to watch MLG. Why hasnt team liquid posted any terran guides vs all races?...
Because there are no terrans who want to write guides.
I just want this to be known that I wasn't forced to write this, hell I wasn't even asked to I wrote it myself got help from TL members for editing/formatting because this place is badass and then this was created. This wasn't forced upon anyone, nobody who did this was forced to work on this zerg guide, I wrote it, I got help for editing/formatting and then I released it. .
So in a nutshell, as a terran player basically i have to analyze your guide and work my way back from it, to see which options will help me win the game vs zerg.
Nah I would more say bug terran players to write guides tbh. I don't know why terrans don't have guide writers :/.
On March 19 2013 14:23 Arisen wrote: Ok, so I really hate to use times because people do some crazy shit and even when it's a standard opening, I'm just really bad at remembering times. What triggers do you use when you're not using straight times to put down your buildings? For example, I had a game where a guy just made a random ass batch of lings and made a third queen to deny scouting, so i was dumping gas and minerals into dealing with this harassment, and now my lair and 2/3 gas timings are all screwed up because I couldn't really get them at the time specified and be ok versus the harass, then I didn't know when the right time to get gas was, and it was all a big mess.
Well in those type of games there is no set time or anything to do anything. Those type of games go completely by feel. I couldn't tell you what to do because every game is different and you just have to feel when you think it's the right time to go lair, get muta, etc in those type of situations.
I could analyze the game hypothetically and tell you, but the next time you are in that situation will be completely different from the replay as things happen differently.
The timings I have are for more normal games, when there is weird stuff happening (proxy 2 rax, proxy gates, etc) you just have to adapt to the situation.
Well from a scientific perspective the only way to beat zergs that follow this guide is pretty much working your way backwards. Kinda like the human body, scientists never had a manual on how the human body works, mostly trial and error and working backwards from the end result and as to why this works this way and that way, thats the only solution i see. long story short having a build that pretty much counters yours.
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Not really. You should watch Monster vs. Hack in HSL(?). It was ZvT, and Monster showed great play with SH against Terran, and how to zone him out, while expanding and teching up to Hive. Also, Leenock played good games against BabyKnight.
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Not really. You should watch Monster vs. Hack in HSL(?). It was ZvT, and Monster showed great play with SH against Terran, and how to zone him out, while expanding and teching up to Hive. Also, Leenock played good games against BabyKnight.
Can you by any chance link those games here or pm me them? I heard about it to and while I use swarmhosts in zvt and just been wrecking face I want to see how monster does it (always good to see how good zergs use them :D).
On March 19 2013 11:04 sdnnvs wrote: Good guide. But not fully agree with the usefulness of Swarm Host. No pro won any match using this unit. Expensive, slow, easy to detect. Who won with SH, was already winning by other means.
Not really. You should watch Monster vs. Hack in HSL(?). It was ZvT, and Monster showed great play with SH against Terran, and how to zone him out, while expanding and teching up to Hive. Also, Leenock played good games against BabyKnight.
Can you by any chance link those games here or pm me them? I heard about it to and while I use swarmhosts in zvt and just been wrecking face I want to see how monster does it (always good to see how good zergs use them :D).
Sure, no problem.
This Video show all of the games of Monster vs. Hack. On his channel you can see other games as well from that tournament. Monster was using Swarm Hosts vs. Protoss, but the Akilon Wastes was the only game vs. Hack were he used Swarm Hosts in ZvT. It wasn't perfect, but was pretty much how you are supposed to use them, always active, burrow-spawn-unburrow-go back etc.
Mid master Zerg US/Random EU here - I was just wondering. Why do people still neglect 15 pool 16 hatch in zvt? I am doing this build with great success so far - Yes, I may be behind slightly in economy, but I have two queens out WAY earlier to deal with reapers. Yes, a few ladder maps make it really easy to defend early reapers, while others do really support things like the 8-8-8. Do you have any replays where you hold such an allin on a "reaper map" with 15 hatch?
Thanks a lot blade, I didn't notice your material until your awesome SH replay pack during the beta, this guide is awesome material, I really hope you will keep updating it in a clear fashion (in order to make it easy for people to read the new or updated sections of it).
I would like to thank you for this awesome guide and for your videos (even if your mouse is shaking a bit too much :p).
I love the way you are using swarmhosts (especially when I saw Leenock's game at MLG).
But the thing is that I'm still noobish and don't have the same vision of the game, the timings part of your BOs are a bit hard to masterize. I know it's all about feeling, but is there a way or some tricks to deal with them ? Like bases saturation ? Because I'm always feeling like "meh, I have to put down my 4th and 5th gaz and I don't even have enough drones on my 3rd base".
Thank you so much for your work : there is a lot of information and I m not that brilliant to memorize every details... so I try to use mind mapping in order to make a synthesis of build orders... this is my post http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=403905 this is the first version of the documents ( exported as JPEG from FreePlane ... there is a Flash version more dynamic but I can't post it in this blog ... )
Tell me if you see any interest and if you allow me to publish this kind of post ( btw, I'll make the job for me anyway but I won"t make it public)
On March 19 2013 20:20 Prugelhugel wrote: Mid master Zerg US/Random EU here - I was just wondering. Why do people still neglect 15 pool 16 hatch in zvt? I am doing this build with great success so far - Yes, I may be behind slightly in economy, but I have two queens out WAY earlier to deal with reapers. Yes, a few ladder maps make it really easy to defend early reapers, while others do really support things like the 8-8-8. Do you have any replays where you hold such an allin on a "reaper map" with 15 hatch?
Because honestly 15 pool 16 hatch doesn't help that much verse reapers. Not worth the economic hit imo. Honestly if you are so worried about reapers you aren't going to hatch first you might is well 14/14. From what I was told (I haven't done this so just saying what some zergs told me) is that they killed the terran who went reaper with a ling/bane bust off of a 14/14. Never tried it, never going to, but if I were to do an earlier pool because of reaper I would do 14/14.
On March 19 2013 21:18 MiMiKn wrote: I would like to thank you for this awesome guide and for your videos (even if your mouse is shaking a bit too much :p).
I love the way you are using swarmhosts (especially when I saw Leenock's game at MLG).
But the thing is that I'm still noobish and don't have the same vision of the game, the timings part of your BOs are a bit hard to masterize. I know it's all about feeling, but is there a way or some tricks to deal with them ? Like bases saturation ? Because I'm always feeling like "meh, I have to put down my 4th and 5th gaz and I don't even have enough drones on my 3rd base".
(And sorry for my approximate english ^.^)
You can go by drone count, that's a good way to kind of "feel" when you should go x tech or lair. Not really anything else other then feel that I can think of atm.
On March 19 2013 22:12 monsta wrote: nice but the main problems of zergs werent the build order or the styles.. more important is now the heavy micro in hots now for zergs
Actually it was many things not just micro like you think . This guide also shows different styles that zergs who didn't play hots (or even if they did) didn't know about.
On March 20 2013 01:59 StoubyW wrote: Hi Blade,
Thank you so much for your work : there is a lot of information and I m not that brilliant to memorize every details... so I try to use mind mapping in order to make a synthesis of build orders... this is my post http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=403905 this is the first version of the documents ( exported as JPEG from FreePlane ... there is a Flash version more dynamic but I can't post it in this blog ... )
Tell me if you see any interest and if you allow me to publish this kind of post ( btw, I'll make the job for me anyway but I won"t make it public)
regards
You can do that I don't have a problem with it.
On March 20 2013 02:08 nghtkiller wrote: Hi I have a silly question, I couldn't completely see the ZvP early build ( I'm noob silver league guy )
what i got is : -15 pool -16 hatch -17 queen with gas trick -19 overlord -20 hatch
Early game zvp should be this:
15 pool 16 hatch 17 - overlord queen after pool finishes 21 third hatch 25 overlord
Those should be the correct ones, there are replays you can download and watch to compare don't forget about those!
What is the rationale behind armor first? I feel it is incredibly hard to keep up with armor upgrade vs protoss ground weapons, and protoss can almost always time out an attack and huge engagement just when his upgrade is finished, making all the efforts useless. Also most of the damage mid-late game is done by colos, storms and immortals and 1 armor is not something that helps much against that. Instead faster ranged upgrades are really useful especially in HOTS since swarmhosts use those and hydras are much more viable with vipers and speed upgrade. And they are cheaper (upgrades)!
On March 20 2013 09:08 Cheerio wrote: What is the rationale behind armor first? I feel it is incredibly hard to keep up with armor upgrade vs protoss ground weapons, and protoss can almost always time out an attack and huge engagement just when his upgrade is finished, making all the efforts useless. Also most of the damage mid-late game is done by colos, storms and immortals and 1 armor is not something that helps much against that. Instead faster ranged upgrades are really useful especially in HOTS since swarmhosts use those and hydras are much more viable with vipers and speed upgrade. And they are cheaper (upgrades)!
I actually changed it to +1 ranged and then once that finishes start +2 ranged and have a 2nd evo getting carapace. Forgot to update the OP with that.
On March 14 2013 05:17 Glon wrote: Nice job - Takes A LOT of time to write these, so hope it gets a lot of attention :D
This will be my reference for the meta game, as well as a teaching tool for myself and friends of all levels. You guys really hammer out the key points of the build, helped me grasp the new style of zerg in all matchups decently in around 15-20 games. Keep it up and thank all you guys!
From my experience, there are no "Terran guides" because Terran is not a race with which you can follow a walkthrough or a flowchart to win your games. At least it wasn't that way at all in WoL. There is no "tech transitions", "mid-game strategies" to speak of.
With Terran, you choose an opening build (there are plenty of guides about those), then choose a unit comp (and it doesn't really matter what your opponent is doing in real time, you just pick something you're comfortable with, or which is good on the map, or because of I don't know what else pre-game factor you can think of), setup your infrastructure, and then you roll with it because you can't really change it on the fly, and the real show begins. You try to outplay your opponent, which can come from different things: - Hitting certain timings (unit counts, upgrades, etc) - Taking good fights and microing them well - Try to outmultitask and drop several places at the same time, while pushing with your main army on the creep. - Meticulously push an advantageous position, - etc..etc.. The point is, you can't really follow a step by step guide to do all that. The guide is basically "micro well, try to drop as fast and often as you can, macro well and chain your upgrades, and good luck".
Terran isn't really the reactive race, you can set the pace by producing certain units and handling them well, forcing your opponent to defend, and imo there isn't really something that can throw you off in the early game, especially in HotS. If a big aggression comes and you scout it, the answer is more or less the same everytime, you make bunkers, repair and try to buy time for your production to kick in and catch up.
In WoL, Terran didn't really have a late game to look forward to to speak of, so you relied pretty much on your "typical bio-centric army" to damage your opponent enough so that he can't get easily to his lategame dream situation. I'm not too experienced in HotS, so it might have changed with certain mech compositions or lategames, but in WoL I never wondered about "what to do now, how I transition" in the middle of the game. What you have to do is pretty straightforward, you have to kill the guy as brutally and mercilessly as you can :D, the actual problem is to execute it, and the few relevant decisions are maybe "when" (at my 2/2? my 3/3? when I have medivacs out? when I have triple factories?) and "where" (tactical, map dependant, and can't really be explained in a textual guide).
I understand the need and the existence of Protoss and Zerg guides, because those can actually provide some elements of game understanding. With Terran, there is not much "understanding" to have to begin with, except having the urge to kill the guy by all means. You must have a very good tactical thinking and very good control, and that's about it.
And I don't really believe you can reverse Blade's guide to get the Terran side of things. Very nice guide btw, that goes without saying, I just wanted to explain why you might not see a big "Secret Bible of TvP" written by forty blue posters or something.
If you can think of something remotely close to what you would put in a Terran guide, tell me, I would be glad to know if it's indeed guide material or just common sense (like "when he makes mutalisks, try to make turrets, roflcopter").
Eh Zenith I disagree with you. A terran guide could do wonders in terms of going mech, explaining what to do, how to move out, base trade situation, vs x unit comp, etc.
Can explain bio, rax per base, dropping when is it good when is it bad, etc etc. To say terrans don't need or can't write a guide is just silly imo you could write a guide with a BO, explain things and common situations.
Dunno there are ways to write terran guides there just aren't any to write any which is true, it's not because terran isn't reactive.
On March 21 2013 04:31 ZenithM wrote: From my experience, there are no "Terran guides" because Terran is not a race with which you can follow a walkthrough or a flowchart to win your games. At least it wasn't that way at all in WoL. There is no "tech transitions", "mid-game strategies" to speak of.
With Terran, you choose an opening build (there are plenty of guides about those), then choose a unit comp (and it doesn't really matter what your opponent is doing in real time, you just pick something you're comfortable with, or which is good on the map, or because of I don't know what else pre-game factor you can think of), setup your infrastructure, and then you roll with it because you can't really change it on the fly, and the real show begins. You try to outplay your opponent, which can come from different things: - Hitting certain timings (unit counts, upgrades, etc) - Taking good fights and microing them well - Try to outmultitask and drop several places at the same time, while pushing with your main army on the creep. - Meticulously push an advantageous position, - etc..etc.. The point is, you can't really follow a step by step guide to do all that. The guide is basically "micro well, try to drop as fast and often as you can, macro well and chain your upgrades, and good luck".
Terran isn't really the reactive race, you can set the pace by producing certain units and handling them well, forcing your opponent to defend, and imo there isn't really something that can throw you off in the early game, especially in HotS. If a big aggression comes and you scout it, the answer is more or less the same everytime, you make bunkers, repair and try to buy time for your production to kick in and catch up.
In WoL, Terran didn't really have a late game to look forward to to speak of, so you relied pretty much on your "typical bio-centric army" to damage your opponent enough so that he can't get easily to his lategame dream situation. I'm not too experienced in HotS, so it might have changed with certain mech compositions or lategames, but in WoL I never wondered about "what to do now, how I transition" in the middle of the game. What you have to do is pretty straightforward, you have to kill the guy as brutally and mercilessly as you can :D, the actual problem is to execute it, and the few relevant decisions are maybe "when" (at my 2/2? my 3/3? when I have medivacs out? when I have triple factories?) and "where" (tactical, map dependant, and can't really be explained in a textual guide).
I understand the need and the existence of Protoss and Zerg guides, because those can actually provide some elements of game understanding. With Terran, there is not much "understanding" to have to begin with, except having the urge to kill the guy by all means. You must have a very good tactical thinking and very good control, and that's about it.
And I don't really believe you can reverse Blade's guide to get the Terran side of things. Very nice guide btw, that goes without saying, I just wanted to explain why you might not see a big "Secret Bible of TvP" written by forty blue posters or something.
If you can think of something remotely close to what you would put in a Terran guide, tell me, I would be glad to know if it's indeed guide material or just common sense (like "when he makes mutalisks, try to make turrets, roflcopter").
this isnt true...like at all. actually T can set the pace of the game like A LOT. T nearly 100% dominates and dicates early to midgame so obv there can be guides and standard builds. momentarely there is just no high level T player that seems to have fun at writing just a guide, but obv it is very possible. every race can follow guides but these guides have to be very long if you want to give a good guidance and overlook since every race has to adjust to what the opponent is doing and cant just blindly build their BO.
On March 21 2013 04:42 blade55555 wrote: Eh Zenith I disagree with you. A terran guide could do wonders in terms of going mech, explaining what to do, how to move out, base trade situation, vs x unit comp, etc.
Can explain bio, rax per base, dropping when is it good when is it bad, etc etc. To say terrans don't need or can't write a guide is just silly imo you could write a guide with a BO, explain things and common situations.
Dunno there are ways to write terran guides there just aren't any to write any which is true, it's not because terran isn't reactive.
Well, like I said, there are already "build" guides, but not really guides that explain what to do the whole game. Like I said, mech wasn't really viable in WoL and isn't really used right now (at MLG for example), so I can't speak for this style, but I can see the importance for mech of decision making, transitions and all that good jazz. I guess a good mech guide would be welcome, and you can even give it to Flash, Innovation and Mvp while you're at it.
But "transitions" for Terran in WoL? Like, do you have an example? I always hear about "transitions" but you don't really transition with Terran. I don't really call adding more raxes when you get a new base "transitioning", that's elementary macro for me.
On March 21 2013 04:31 ZenithM wrote: From my experience, there are no "Terran guides" because Terran is not a race with which you can follow a walkthrough or a flowchart to win your games. At least it wasn't that way at all in WoL. There is no "tech transitions", "mid-game strategies" to speak of.
With Terran, you choose an opening build (there are plenty of guides about those), then choose a unit comp (and it doesn't really matter what your opponent is doing in real time, you just pick something you're comfortable with, or which is good on the map, or because of I don't know what else pre-game factor you can think of), setup your infrastructure, and then you roll with it because you can't really change it on the fly, and the real show begins. You try to outplay your opponent, which can come from different things: - Hitting certain timings (unit counts, upgrades, etc) - Taking good fights and microing them well - Try to outmultitask and drop several places at the same time, while pushing with your main army on the creep. - Meticulously push an advantageous position, - etc..etc.. The point is, you can't really follow a step by step guide to do all that. The guide is basically "micro well, try to drop as fast and often as you can, macro well and chain your upgrades, and good luck".
Terran isn't really the reactive race, you can set the pace by producing certain units and handling them well, forcing your opponent to defend, and imo there isn't really something that can throw you off in the early game, especially in HotS. If a big aggression comes and you scout it, the answer is more or less the same everytime, you make bunkers, repair and try to buy time for your production to kick in and catch up.
In WoL, Terran didn't really have a late game to look forward to to speak of, so you relied pretty much on your "typical bio-centric army" to damage your opponent enough so that he can't get easily to his lategame dream situation. I'm not too experienced in HotS, so it might have changed with certain mech compositions or lategames, but in WoL I never wondered about "what to do now, how I transition" in the middle of the game. What you have to do is pretty straightforward, you have to kill the guy as brutally and mercilessly as you can :D, the actual problem is to execute it, and the few relevant decisions are maybe "when" (at my 2/2? my 3/3? when I have medivacs out? when I have triple factories?) and "where" (tactical, map dependant, and can't really be explained in a textual guide).
I understand the need and the existence of Protoss and Zerg guides, because those can actually provide some elements of game understanding. With Terran, there is not much "understanding" to have to begin with, except having the urge to kill the guy by all means. You must have a very good tactical thinking and very good control, and that's about it.
And I don't really believe you can reverse Blade's guide to get the Terran side of things. Very nice guide btw, that goes without saying, I just wanted to explain why you might not see a big "Secret Bible of TvP" written by forty blue posters or something.
If you can think of something remotely close to what you would put in a Terran guide, tell me, I would be glad to know if it's indeed guide material or just common sense (like "when he makes mutalisks, try to make turrets, roflcopter").
this isnt true...like at all. actually T can set the pace of the game like A LOT. T nearly 100% dominates and dicates early to midgame so obv there can be guides and standard builds. momentarely there is just no high level T player that seems to have fun at writing just a guide, but obv it is very possible. every race can follow guides but these guides have to be very long if you want to give a good guidance and overlook since every race has to adjust to what the opponent is doing and cant just blindly build their BO.
"actually T can set the pace of the game like A LOT" Well that's what I said lol, Terran is an active race. And yes, Terran can just blindly build shit and be pretty much fine. I'm Terran and I'm not ashamed to admit it, the difficulty of playing Terran doesn't reside in knowing "what to build" anyway.
I can understand what you're saying though. Of course you could make a guide, you can always try to tell people what is optimal. But I'm not sure that you would benefit from reading the guide much, that's what I'm claiming. I didn't expect many people to agree with that, so that's cool . People want to believe in the safety of some approved method and that there exists a smart choice. But in fact, I believe that with Terran, everything you do can pretty much make sense as long as you commit to it and execute it to the best of your abilities.
Edit: I can think of dozens of viable non all-in builds per Terran matchups. Can you think of countless builds for Zerg and Protoss? Nope, because at some point you have to precisely deal with whatever Terran is doing. That's our privilege, like a racial trait :D Good luck fitting all those in a guide and explaining the slight variations between them, fellow Terran players.
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
I dont think the fact that Korean Terrans were destroying foreign Zergs means that Terran is way more powerful than Zerg right now and therefore they don't need a guide. The average Terran needs a lot of help right now too. I think as a race, Terran strategy has somewhat stagnated. I find it hard to believe that there is literally no lategame composition for Terran to try and reach; I just think that not all of the options have been explored yet and most Terrans are content simply doing multiple drops and timing attacks. It would be a shame though if there was only one way to play a race, so I think its up to Terrans to devise some new intriguing strategies that actually work rather than following one path. For instance, and I have not tried this so its purely theorycrafting, why dont we see more terrans going ghost mech in TvP? The aspect of TvP that makes it very hard for Terrans to mech is primarily the immortals hardened shield which could be countered by the ghost's emp. That said, props to the Zerg and Toss players for devising some cool new strats.
On March 14 2013 05:49 Advantageous wrote: Where is protoss? why all zerg?
Because we zergs like to write guides and help our fellow zergs out. Protosses aren't as nice, neither are terrans :D
Terran guide: "Really? Did you watch any of the games at MLG?" Protoss guide: "Do what MC is doing in PvT and PvP and do what PartinG has always been doing in PvZ"
This Zerg guide is required because up to this point, the only strategy I could think of to deal with Terrans or Protoss was to play as good as life =|
Also, amazing guide, I'm bookmarking it and referring back to it whenever I can
I dont think the fact that Korean Terrans were destroying foreign Zergs means that Terran is way more powerful than Zerg right now and therefore they don't need a guide.
Well, Korean Terrans destroyed 3-0 Code S zerg like Leenock and Stephano, and Life won a lot of his ZvT at MLG by some various kind of baneling bust, otherwise he almost got eliminated by Polt and Last. Two very good terran of course, but Life is actually by far the greatest Zerg right now, the fact that he struggled so much against (lesser, no disrespect to Polt and Last) terran at this tournament kinda tells a lot.
A GM friend of mine likes to open stargate into third and then techs straight to HT, because he says that colossus would be owned by vipers. I basically follow your build with the swarm hosts pressure into hive. Should I go to ultras if I see HT and no colossus? Or should I make an other unit composition.
In the same trend, I also have an issue when the protoss opens stargate, but instead of taking a third, tecks to colossus and then makes a push on 2 bases with 3 collossus, a few void rays and gateways units. It's really hard to hold, at that time I have hydras-swar hosts (on 3 bases). Should I aim for a different composition, or is just my control that is poor?
A last thing, when I use swarm hosts, the first wave of locusts right after the burrow doesn't follow the rally point, they just stay where the sh are. Is there any trick to use them correctly?
On March 22 2013 22:02 Aelendis wrote: I have a few questions, especially in ZvP:
A GM friend of mine likes to open stargate into third and then techs straight to HT, because he says that colossus would be owned by vipers. I basically follow your build with the swarm hosts pressure into hive. Should I go to ultras if I see HT and no colossus? Or should I make an other unit composition.
In the same trend, I also have an issue when the protoss opens stargate, but instead of taking a third, tecks to colossus and then makes a push on 2 bases with 3 collossus, a few void rays and gateways units. It's really hard to hold, at that time I have hydras-swar hosts (on 3 bases). Should I aim for a different composition, or is just my control that is poor?
A last thing, when I use swarm hosts, the first wave of locusts right after the burrow doesn't follow the rally point, they just stay where the sh are. Is there any trick to use them correctly?
Thank you for your answers.
Swarmhosts are so good vs high templar play that roach/hydra//swarmhost will just crush him. Everytime a protoss goes high templar and refuses to make colossi is a free win pretty much as templar are just not a good answer to swarmhosts at all.
If you are facing a 2 base 3 colossi push swarmhost/roach/hydra will kill it, if you see colossi when he's on 2 base and hasn't started a third I would also start a spire so you could add in corruptors later.
The trick to using swarmhosts is as soon as you click burrow you need to move the rally point asap. If you do it to late the first wave will not move and you'll have to do it manually for that one.
A really good and well written guide, which gives important notes to lower skilled players like me (diamond) !
First a big thanks for taking the time to do this, good job!
I also found your replaypacks from the Beta and thought fu** yeah, finally some video material i can use to improve my Hots play but then : " Couldn't load etc...."
As i am unable to watch streams i am looking for replay packs and i was like T_T when it couldn't load your old ones. I already watched the replays from this guide and even those few helped me a lot to understand, what you actually wrote in your guide.
Do you plan to make a new replay pack these days? It would be absolutely awesome ! :D
Awesome guide. I didn't know you made videos until I saw this guide, you swarm host vs immortal sentry all in video was awesome, I've started opening with swarm hosts now. Noticed that they weren't really that useful when you only had like 6 of them but once I started doing 10-13 like you said I like them much more. Would love a few extra replays especially for ZvT and ZvP Good work.
On March 24 2013 03:32 Zheryn wrote: Awesome guide. I didn't know you made videos until I saw this guide, you swarm host vs immortal sentry all in video was awesome, I've started opening with swarm hosts now. Noticed that they weren't really that useful when you only had like 6 of them but once I started doing 10-13 like you said I like them much more. Would love a few extra replays especially for ZvT and ZvP Good work.
Reason I haven't added new replays to this is because I plan on releasing all my korean replays next week which will have more then enough demonstrations of my zvt/zvp/zvz .
Glad you all like the guide :D
Some point next week I plan on adding in a section (muta/ling/bane into swarmhost/ling/bane/ultra/infestor). Also modifying the how to beat late game zvp now that I do know how and all that fun jazz.
On March 24 2013 03:32 Zheryn wrote: Awesome guide. I didn't know you made videos until I saw this guide, you swarm host vs immortal sentry all in video was awesome, I've started opening with swarm hosts now. Noticed that they weren't really that useful when you only had like 6 of them but once I started doing 10-13 like you said I like them much more. Would love a few extra replays especially for ZvT and ZvP Good work.
Reason I haven't added new replays to this is because I plan on releasing all my korean replays next week which will have more then enough demonstrations of my zvt/zvp/zvz .
Glad you all like the guide :D
Some point next week I plan on adding in a section (muta/ling/bane into swarmhost/ling/bane/ultra/infestor). Also modifying the how to beat late game zvp now that I do know how and all that fun jazz.
Fastest OP response ever! :D Just watched your swarm host vs bio video and you really have made me change my mind about swarm hosts. Eagerly awaiting your new version with muta into swarm host!
yeah but even so i find i gotta keep my mutas defensively ..or most of them at least, as their lings/banes will destroy mine :/
a while ago in WoL I'd do that 1-1 build a lot to players who looked like they were going muta and I felt like I only ever lost if i made a mistake...it was so strong vs muta
Oh yeah you do have to keep muta defensive but if he keeps sending lings he has to do damage. If its all they do then yeah keep defensive and you will eventually have so much you can kill him.
On March 24 2013 11:29 Zelniq wrote: well if they dont see you move out, they don't attack and go to infestor + hive--> ultra usually
All right now that I am home I can go into more detail.
If he isn't moving out you should be pushing out with your units, once he starts pushing out defending, if he is teching hive you will have a huge window to kill him with roaches if you choose.
The 2 things you can do vs a player who will only do a counter attack is make sure to have super solid defense before pushing out with mutas and going hive to ultra yourself, or you can do a roach/muta timing that will kill him easy peasy as if he's making so many lings no way in hell he's going to have many roaches if any and if he's going infestors he won't have a lot either (again if he's making so many lings he can't be droning that much).
I played a player who literally this is all he does when I play him in zvz every single game he goes 1/1 and he just constantly attacks and all I do is stay defensive and then I kill him as he tries to tech. I haven't played him in a long time though and he was the only one who did it to me so I don't have much more experience other then when cats did it to me in beta and I just killed him with a roach timing cause he was going so ling heavy and going hive.
I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
On August 20 2012 17:02 Chaosvuistje wrote: I keep coming close to beating this style with an odd Mutalisk based style of my own. As if you open mutalisks, he will get ultras out before I can even finish my hive. Ofcourse his upgrades will be better as well, so going for Ultralisk of your own to counter him seems waay too out there. Aside from Ultralisks of your own, nothing on the ground really beats them for cost efficiency.
So what I do is during the time my spire is building ( when I already know that he is going for +1/+1 lings and probably infestors ) I put down my evo chamber and get +1 melee of my own. That'll make my banelings one-shot zerglings again until they finally reach +3/+3, which is way past the time that the usual counter attacks go on. I take my bases and stay defensive while getting drops. The strangest thing against this build is that you have to stay really defensive, even with your Mutalisks, because counter attacks on your bases are just so strong.
Once drop tech finishes, I load up about 6 overlords worth of banelings and spread them out. Infestors are actually really terrible against both overlords and any air unit spread out, so I can easily put them around his fourth base if he took it and snipe it out with mutalisks and zerglings. Once he moves in with lings of his own, you start dropping banes from the overlords that are closest, whiping his army out if he gets too close. Then, when his infestors move in, spread your mutalisks out like mad and start sniping them. The goal is basically to make each fungal so ineffective that he either has to deplete his infestors with infested terran eggs or lose his infestors trying to fungal each of them. If all went well, and he decides to go for a huge attack with Ultras, you should be able to atleast take out the first wave if you can delay the ultras from wrecking your econ too much.
It's pretty tough to do, but since you will almost always take your third and fourth before the ultra-player, you will be ahead economically even if he decides to techswitch into roaches or hydras, while spines are generally really good against those units regardless.
I have some failed attempts of the muta-banedrop play thus far. My actual attack works out really really well, but beforehand I kept getting bases sniped forcing me to stay on the same econ as my opponent. In which case you're pretty much down and out against this infestor-ultra build anyway. They are the closest games I've been able to produce against this style when opening muta anyway, so it's a step in the right direction.
On August 21 2012 07:32 Chaosvuistje wrote: Alright so here are some games of me playing Muta against this Infestor-Ultra style.
These two games show the power of the counter attack. Zerglings just shred a base up in seconds so it is absolutely essential to keep up on the defence. This is also why you pretty much need +1 melee so your banelings kill the counter attacks more easily again. There's not really much to talk about in these two replays, mostly just examples of 'defend with your units, any attack is greedy'.
This replay shows what I feel you have to do with your army. Make sure you split the mutalisks and overlords out and just set up a perimeter around the opponents fourth with the overlords. Move in with your mutalisks and take care of that hatch. Incase he comes to attack, drop the banelings to ward him off. If his infestors move out too far, you can easily snipe them out with a big magic box.
What I consider to be my first true win against this style due to similar skill in my opponent. The big points here are the fact that I walled off the third with evo chambers and just spammed spinecrawlers like there was no tomorrow. Defending any counter attacks with banelings was rather easy, but you have to stay on top with the defense otherwise you will lose your advantage.
Again, the focus of this style is to make sure you deny his fourth for a long time. Overlords with baneligns are essential not because of their damage, but because spread out overlords simply aren't cost effective to fungal. On top of that, if you really want to kill of the overlord, you will have to drop infested terrans out first and then fungal, but you can't move in and the banelings will still kill off the infested terrans once they hatch. Even if the opponent decides to fungal the dropping banes, they would have to do that a ton, wasting energy on cheap units. If you ahve a large enough flock of mutalisks, seconds is all you need to snipe off a hatch, and thats exactly what the overlords give you.
If he decides to counter attack with ultralisks, your insane mutacount should be enough to clean him up. The trick here is to delay his ultras from doing damage to your econ and hatches, that's why you just spam out spinecrawlers when you get your fourth up.
I'll be honest though, this style isn't that easy to execute. You have to constantly babysit your mutalisks and overlords so they don't clump up. The one way you can get absolutely and utterly destroyed is by having your deathflock fungalled in one go. Think of an archon toilet, but much, much sadder to watch.
These replays are all at around 2050-2000 MMR. So take them with a grain of salt if you will.
I imagine this working better now that mutalisks are stronger, but I haven't encountered this strategy a lot in HotS yet. So I'm afraid I don't have any recent replays due to my inactivity during the winter and autumn :/
how do you deal with protoss poking out with mothership core and first 2 gateways? It doesn't seem like there's much scouting you can do to figure out its going on until they're already incoming and I always end up losing at least a queen to this harassment, if not a handful of drones too, and the game just snowballs from there
On March 25 2013 02:29 Arisen wrote: how do you deal with protoss poking out with mothership core and first 2 gateways? It doesn't seem like there's much scouting you can do to figure out its going on until they're already incoming and I always end up losing at least a queen to this harassment, if not a handful of drones too, and the game just snowballs from there
Incorporate another queen in your build. Get 2 at your third to stop this nonsense from happening, and use it to get some nice creepspread. Then afterwards you can always use it to inject macro/4th hatch.
On March 25 2013 02:29 Arisen wrote: how do you deal with protoss poking out with mothership core and first 2 gateways? It doesn't seem like there's much scouting you can do to figure out its going on until they're already incoming and I always end up losing at least a queen to this harassment, if not a handful of drones too, and the game just snowballs from there
You should have 2 queens to focus it, but lings and 2 queens deal with it just fine.
Thanks for the guides. Just reached diamond due to most of your builds. Still struggling a bit vs Protoss, but I've been trying to experiment rather than use the swarm hosts. I think I'll be trying the hosts a lot more. I would love for you to throw out some more ides.
I am a mid/high diamond player using these builds.
I have a small problem vs toss with the toss build you have on this. First off I would like to say I LOVE this zvp build and am pretty good at it, however, I find it somewhat difficult to deal with storms. I have the micro capabilities to deal with it just fine for the most part but either due to the mechanics of hydras I cannot seem to split them too well. By the mechanics I mean the fact that hydras make a "wall" of sorts which eat storms as well as their somewhat slow movement speed( as opposed to ling/rines/ other light units to split with). I was wondering if there was any other way that you deal with HTs other than splitting. I played a few practice games and tried taking 16-20 lings after a-moving into his army and sttempting to surround his HTs before they could storm, with no avail. Any othe suggestions you have for this dilemma?
I'm quite curious about ZvT and the muta ling into swarmhost style, the general idea is to get mutalisk first to deal with drop (stop at ~12? Do you research any air upgrades?) and then going into swarmhost, but when do you start your infestation pit and how many swarmhost do you want to build overall? Then i guess the ultimate composition is to go toward Ultralisk, but ultralisk, viper, swarm host are all costing a lot of supply, how do you balance your late game composition between these unit?
On March 25 2013 08:32 wcLLg wrote: One of the ZvPs on Belshir is a ZvZ in the ZvP replay pack. Want more replays, depth.
You'll have more then enough replays this week, wednesday I plan on releasing a giant replay pack of all my zvt/zvp/zvz's .
On March 25 2013 08:49 thechasemenna wrote: I am a mid/high diamond player using these builds.
I have a small problem vs toss with the toss build you have on this. First off I would like to say I LOVE this zvp build and am pretty good at it, however, I find it somewhat difficult to deal with storms. I have the micro capabilities to deal with it just fine for the most part but either due to the mechanics of hydras I cannot seem to split them too well. By the mechanics I mean the fact that hydras make a "wall" of sorts which eat storms as well as their somewhat slow movement speed( as opposed to ling/rines/ other light units to split with). I was wondering if there was any other way that you deal with HTs other than splitting. I played a few practice games and tried taking 16-20 lings after a-moving into his army and sttempting to surround his HTs before they could storm, with no avail. Any othe suggestions you have for this dilemma?
Swarmhosts deal with storm so so well and with ultra makes it even easier. Try to not engage unless you have locusts going first or ultras (preferably both).
On March 25 2013 09:02 Vanadiel wrote: I'm quite curious about ZvT and the muta ling into swarmhost style, the general idea is to get mutalisk first to deal with drop (stop at ~12? Do you research any air upgrades?) and then going into swarmhost, but when do you start your infestation pit and how many swarmhost do you want to build overall? Then i guess the ultimate composition is to go toward Ultralisk, but ultralisk, viper, swarm host are all costing a lot of supply, how do you balance your late game composition between these unit?
I get 14-16 mutalisks then start hive + locust upgrade I get infestation pit once I get 14 mutalisks. I will be adding a zvt section with this build and I am now seeing korean zergs doing this (I know they didn't get this from me) so I am pretty sure they feel the same way I do that it's legit and strong vs bio + widow mine.
With late game I have 10-12 swarmhosts then ultra/ling/bane/infestor and if it doesn't kill him I will add in 5 broodlords as well.
low masters player here. I don't really feel comfortable with a 3rd hatch at 21 against toss. Im not good at defending the mothership core with 2 gateway unit attack on it. I also simply dont play well with such a macro oriented style from start. Do you feel 2 base initially and expand afterwards can be viable or are you defiantly behind if you don't 3 base against a FE protoss?
On March 25 2013 13:53 Fumble wrote: low masters player here. I don't really feel comfortable with a 3rd hatch at 21 against toss. Im not good at defending the mothership core with 2 gateway unit attack on it. I also simply dont play well with such a macro oriented style from start. Do you feel 2 base initially and expand afterwards can be viable or are you defiantly behind if you don't 3 base against a FE protoss?
Well if you don't play well from a macro oriented play style I would get used to it as it will only help you become a better player. If you don't do it you will never get good at it.
As for 2 base initially probably but you are putting yourself behind in economy for no reason (by behind I don't even mean behind like you are in a bad position, just you could be in such a better economic spot then if you start 2 base and go into a macro game).
Ok guys this is a little tease of what to expect in my replay pack coming this week.
This is a zvp replay of me vs a GM toss (ares is his name). Late game he gets voidray/colo/templar. How does Blade beat that composition!?!?!? Watch the replay.
I have NOT lost to this composition yet since beta :D
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!
Thanks Blade for your awesome videos and replays. I've been playing SC2 for only few days but your BO building SH especially against Toss works really well for me in my high silver league (given i've been playing sc2 for only about few days) , and also will be waiting for your replay pack.
On March 25 2013 16:45 blade55555 wrote: Ok guys this is a little tease of what to expect in my replay pack coming this week.
This is a zvp replay of me vs a GM toss (ares is his name). Late game he gets voidray/colo/templar. How does Blade beat that composition!?!?!? Watch the replay.
I have NOT lost to this composition yet since beta :D
I'll watch this when I can, but overall, do you think your way to play lategame is the right one and should be standard even for pro, or do you think it works because even at high master/GM people makes still a lot of mistakes?
Thanks about your answer about ZvT swarmhost, i catch some Sen game where he played like this and it seems to be really a fun way to play.
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!
Sorry for missing this not sure how I missed this post.
I actually started skipping corruptors a week or 2 ago and went straight to vipers. I am going to update my guide with this soon because corruptors suck and delay hive and you don't need them to deal with a colossi push. Pretty much I don't do hydra/ling just hydra and sometimes roaches if I think their going to do a silly push with the swarmhosts.
On March 25 2013 16:45 blade55555 wrote: Ok guys this is a little tease of what to expect in my replay pack coming this week.
This is a zvp replay of me vs a GM toss (ares is his name). Late game he gets voidray/colo/templar. How does Blade beat that composition!?!?!? Watch the replay.
I have NOT lost to this composition yet since beta :D
I'll watch this when I can, but overall, do you think your way to play lategame is the right one and should be standard even for pro, or do you think it works because even at high master/GM people makes still a lot of mistakes?
Thanks about your answer about ZvT swarmhost, i catch some Sen game where he played like this and it seems to be really a fun way to play.
Yes I think my late game zvp is 1 way to beat it. I think there may be others, but their more boring and last longer then the style I do. I think this will be standard eventually if protosses keep with the current deathball, zergs just need to realize it. I have not lost to voidray/templar/colo since beta and that was before I started doing this composition
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!
Sorry for missing this not sure how I missed this post.
I actually started skipping corruptors a week or 2 ago and went straight to vipers. I am going to update my guide with this soon because corruptors suck and delay hive and you don't need them to deal with a colossi push. Pretty much I don't do hydra/ling just hydra and sometimes roaches if I think their going to do a silly push with the swarmhosts.
So basically you get 10 SH, a lot of hydras (and some roaches), and go for an early hive to get vipers. What would you say is the right amount of vipers before producing ultras? I usually get around 5 vipers.
Also, what would you consider the right timing to get hive, assuming a standard game? (As in, ~supply to get it?) I take my upgrades like this; +1 range, when it's almost done add 2 more evos then go for 1/2/1. After that, just 2/2 and 3/3 melee/carapace upgrades. Do you think this is appropriate?
Sorry for all these questions, I played some more games today and got into masters again, but I took a demolishing loss vs protoss using this comp. So I'm trying to refine it a little bit:D Thanks!!
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!
Sorry for missing this not sure how I missed this post.
I actually started skipping corruptors a week or 2 ago and went straight to vipers. I am going to update my guide with this soon because corruptors suck and delay hive and you don't need them to deal with a colossi push. Pretty much I don't do hydra/ling just hydra and sometimes roaches if I think their going to do a silly push with the swarmhosts.
So basically you get 10 SH, a lot of hydras (and some roaches), and go for an early hive to get vipers. What would you say is the right amount of vipers before producing ultras? I usually get around 5 vipers.
Also, what would you consider the right timing to get hive, assuming a standard game? (As in, ~supply to get it?) I take my upgrades like this; +1 range, when it's almost done add 2 more evos then go for 1/2/1. After that, just 2/2 and 3/3 melee/carapace upgrades. Do you think this is appropriate?
Sorry for all these questions, I played some more games today and got into masters again, but I took a demolishing loss vs protoss using this comp. So I'm trying to refine it a little bit:D Thanks!!
I get 12-14 swarmhosts, mostly hydras sometimes only hydras it really depends on the protosses unit composition (is he going air? is he just going pure ground?). I get 3-5 vipers normally.
I start my hive at 12 minutes, 12:30 latest. I get +1 missile, then add in a second evo and get carapace with it. Sometimes I get a third evo to start melee, but I normally wait till carapace is done upgrading.
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!
Sorry for missing this not sure how I missed this post.
I actually started skipping corruptors a week or 2 ago and went straight to vipers. I am going to update my guide with this soon because corruptors suck and delay hive and you don't need them to deal with a colossi push. Pretty much I don't do hydra/ling just hydra and sometimes roaches if I think their going to do a silly push with the swarmhosts.
So basically you get 10 SH, a lot of hydras (and some roaches), and go for an early hive to get vipers. What would you say is the right amount of vipers before producing ultras? I usually get around 5 vipers.
Also, what would you consider the right timing to get hive, assuming a standard game? (As in, ~supply to get it?) I take my upgrades like this; +1 range, when it's almost done add 2 more evos then go for 1/2/1. After that, just 2/2 and 3/3 melee/carapace upgrades. Do you think this is appropriate?
Sorry for all these questions, I played some more games today and got into masters again, but I took a demolishing loss vs protoss using this comp. So I'm trying to refine it a little bit:D Thanks!!
I get 12-14 swarmhosts, mostly hydras sometimes only hydras it really depends on the protosses unit composition (is he going air? is he just going pure ground?). I get 3-5 vipers normally.
I start my hive at 12 minutes, 12:30 latest. I get +1 missile, then add in a second evo and get carapace with it. Sometimes I get a third evo to start melee, but I normally wait till carapace is done upgrading.
Noob question: how do you adjust your unit composition in those cases?
On March 25 2013 01:56 Henk wrote: I've been approaching protoss with 10-13 SH, some ling support, and hydras. However instead of going straight to ultras I get out vipers first, and then go into ultras. So I basically have a 100% SH hydra army until I get some vipers.
What are your thoughts on this? In your 'standard macro game' with SH vs protoss you don't seem to describe vipers at all. Why not? Should I just skip them all together? Should I just pump out more ultras? Thanks!
-Edit, forgot to clarify: I'm not getting corruptors, because I feel like they melt way too fast to VR, really. and once he has got an adequate number of colossi, they just kill everything before my corruptors kill them, and then afterwards I have a lot of useless supply, if he didn't use VR.
So I'm using vipers to pull colossi into my hydra/SH ball.
Mid/high Master level, btw. (Or at least - in WoL, I haven't played too much HotS, but I will get back there soon enough, going to play some more this week.)
Sorry for posting this again Blade, but I feel like you missed my post and I would really love an answer!
Sorry for missing this not sure how I missed this post.
I actually started skipping corruptors a week or 2 ago and went straight to vipers. I am going to update my guide with this soon because corruptors suck and delay hive and you don't need them to deal with a colossi push. Pretty much I don't do hydra/ling just hydra and sometimes roaches if I think their going to do a silly push with the swarmhosts.
So basically you get 10 SH, a lot of hydras (and some roaches), and go for an early hive to get vipers. What would you say is the right amount of vipers before producing ultras? I usually get around 5 vipers.
Also, what would you consider the right timing to get hive, assuming a standard game? (As in, ~supply to get it?) I take my upgrades like this; +1 range, when it's almost done add 2 more evos then go for 1/2/1. After that, just 2/2 and 3/3 melee/carapace upgrades. Do you think this is appropriate?
Sorry for all these questions, I played some more games today and got into masters again, but I took a demolishing loss vs protoss using this comp. So I'm trying to refine it a little bit:D Thanks!!
I get 12-14 swarmhosts, mostly hydras sometimes only hydras it really depends on the protosses unit composition (is he going air? is he just going pure ground?). I get 3-5 vipers normally.
I start my hive at 12 minutes, 12:30 latest. I get +1 missile, then add in a second evo and get carapace with it. Sometimes I get a third evo to start melee, but I normally wait till carapace is done upgrading.
Noob question: how do you adjust your unit composition in those cases?
Versus ground no air at all I will add in 5-8 broodlords with viper/ultra/hydra/swarmhost. There wont' be many hydras because hydras aren't very good vs colo/templar when there are no voids no reason to make to many hydra.
I just have to say thank you for this thread! I have been desperately wanting to get back into playing on the ladder as Zerg, but had no idea where to start. This is going to be a huge help for me.
First of all, thank you for this amazing guide, it helped me quite a lot with my zerg play. Even got into Diamond while studying it and I'm able to keep myself around 50%. Now I have two questions:
1) How do you keep a mech-terran from taking his third when using your build? Or do you even keep him from doing that or does the contain just cover the fourth and following bases? I never seem to have just enough Units to keep him from getting that base.
2) In ZvZ, is there a trick or a technique for ling/baneling micro? I always try to get one ling to attack the banelings, but I cant click fast enough to remove one from the group and order the rest away. Is this just practice or is there a optimal way to do this?
On March 27 2013 02:06 InspectorPing wrote: First of all, thank you for this amazing guide, it helped me quite a lot with my zerg play. Even got into Diamond while studying it and I'm able to keep myself around 50%. Now I have two questions:
1) How do you keep a mech-terran from taking his third when using your build? Or do you even keep him from doing that or does the contain just cover the fourth and following bases? I never seem to have just enough Units to keep him from getting that base.
2) In ZvZ, is there a trick or a technique for ling/baneling micro? I always try to get one ling to attack the banelings, but I cant click fast enough to remove one from the group and order the rest away. Is this just practice or is there a optimal way to do this?
Thanks in advance to everyone who might answer
1. You can't stop a meching third base if the mech player plays it correctly. You can however deny a 4'th for a long time most of the time with swarmhost/roach/hydra and then with viper support.
2. Hm just mouse control and selecting, no special trick it's normally practice that helps here.
Blade do you have experience with 2rax multiple SCV mutiple bunkers all in? In my experience no later hatch than 14 with 14 pool can work.
Also one more thing, in my experience if Terran opens Hellions it is good idea to make good amount of Roaches and just go and attack him. I got inspired by expand into 7 Roach but 7 isn't enough. This attack does 2 things - checks if Terran went mech or bio and punishes him for going Hellions, especially if mech was the choice.
On March 27 2013 02:58 beetlelisk wrote: Blade do you have experience with 2rax multiple SCV mutiple bunkers all in? In my experience no later hatch than 14 with 14 pool can work.
Also one more thing, in my experience if Terran opens Hellions it is good idea to make good amount of Roaches and just go and attack him. I got inspired by expand into 7 Roach but 7 isn't enough. This attack does 2 things - checks if Terran went mech or bio and punishes him for going Hellions, especially if mech was the choice.
This is WoL strategy though but I'm guessing it wouldn't be that hard to adjust this to HoTS.
You can hold with 15 hatch 16 pool just pull drones to try and surround marines while you wait.
As for a roach rush, a good terran won't die to it even when opening hellions. It's fine but you do have to do damage and if he has a bunker + repair you could end up behind economically.
Now for off topic here is a big replay pack from the korean server guys!
Now if only blade would not rage as much on ladder haha just kidding man.
Great guide, very well put together. Massive shout out to you and all who helped you put this together. Looks great, people can get to what they want to see easily, just very well done.
Hi Blade. I started Heart of the Swarm right away and made it after Platinum placement very fast into Diamond league. I failed a lot in the first two weeks until I read your guide. Now my winrate is starting to get higher and higher. Thank you for that. But somehow...I do not know why...I really suck at ZvT. While thanks to your guide my winrates vs Toss and Zerg are about 50% or higher versus Terran I have only about 40%. It really bothers me since ZvT was my best Matchup in WoL. Somehow I adapted your openings pretty good and try to not forget your guide but in the end I mostly end up losing anyways. Am I the only one who has that hard times against Terrans?
I know this statement is some kind of useless because you or others of the community can not give me tips because I do not really know my problem vsT. But it had to be said.
On March 27 2013 02:58 beetlelisk wrote: Blade do you have experience with 2rax multiple SCV mutiple bunkers all in? In my experience no later hatch than 14 with 14 pool can work.
Also one more thing, in my experience if Terran opens Hellions it is good idea to make good amount of Roaches and just go and attack him. I got inspired by expand into 7 Roach but 7 isn't enough. This attack does 2 things - checks if Terran went mech or bio and punishes him for going Hellions, especially if mech was the choice.
This is WoL strategy though but I'm guessing it wouldn't be that hard to adjust this to HoTS.
You can hold with 15 hatch 16 pool just pull drones to try and surround marines while you wait.
I guess I will try again but smart Terran can have a bunker out of sight fast enough. I really do mean multiple - at least 3 SCVs and all minerals go on bunkers and marines.
As for a roach rush, a good terran won't die to it even when opening hellions. It's fine but you do have to do damage and if he has a bunker + repair you could end up behind economically.
Now for off topic here is a big replay pack from the korean server guys!
I didn't write kill him, just punish. It all comes down to correct number of Roaches. And if he repairs the SCVs can be targeted. Did you see the game I linked?
On March 27 2013 05:20 AyMnRSC2 wrote: Now if only blade would not rage as much on ladder haha just kidding man.
Great guide, very well put together. Massive shout out to you and all who helped you put this together. Looks great, people can get to what they want to see easily, just very well done.
On March 27 2013 02:58 beetlelisk wrote: Blade do you have experience with 2rax multiple SCV mutiple bunkers all in? In my experience no later hatch than 14 with 14 pool can work.
Also one more thing, in my experience if Terran opens Hellions it is good idea to make good amount of Roaches and just go and attack him. I got inspired by expand into 7 Roach but 7 isn't enough. This attack does 2 things - checks if Terran went mech or bio and punishes him for going Hellions, especially if mech was the choice.
This is WoL strategy though but I'm guessing it wouldn't be that hard to adjust this to HoTS.
You can hold with 15 hatch 16 pool just pull drones to try and surround marines while you wait.
I guess I will try again but smart Terran can have a bunker out of sight fast enough. I really do mean multiple - at least 3 SCVs and all minerals go on bunkers and marines.
As for a roach rush, a good terran won't die to it even when opening hellions. It's fine but you do have to do damage and if he has a bunker + repair you could end up behind economically.
Now for off topic here is a big replay pack from the korean server guys!
I didn't write kill him, just punish. It all comes down to correct number of Roaches. And if he repairs the SCVs can be targeted. Did you see the game I linked?
Well I was saying if a terran sees it coming it shouldn't do much damage and will only work if terran isn't prepared for it or see it coming at all. For the 2 rax comment it all comes down to control, it's hard cause it's so rare so get a terran to practice verse until you get good at it
I have a question about ZvT (that matchup that pisses the shit out of me lately). I realise that without GM level unit control swarm hosts are pretty much a must now and I'm perfectly fine with that, they're great midgame. But what do I do with them lategame? That awkward stage of the game when I have 7 bases scattered all over the map and that pesky EZ mode race just drops all of them at the same time. 12-14 SHs do eat into supply a lot, significantly reducing the size of my rolling ball of ultra bane, and being so immobile they look absolutely useless. Do I just sac them? Or is there a better way to use them lategame?
On March 27 2013 14:00 Atthasit wrote: I have a question about ZvT (that matchup that pisses the shit out of me lately). I realise that without GM level unit control swarm hosts are pretty much a must now and I'm perfectly fine with that, they're great midgame. But what do I do with them lategame? That awkward stage of the game when I have 7 bases scattered all over the map and that pesky EZ mode race just drops all of them at the same time. 12-14 SHs do eat into supply a lot, significantly reducing the size of my rolling ball of ultra bane, and being so immobile they look absolutely useless. Do I just sac them? Or is there a better way to use them lategame?
Just use them to attack bases like the terrans third, 4'th, etc just keep using them aggressively once hive tech is out.
On March 27 2013 14:03 blade55555 wrote: Just use them to attack bases like the terrans third, 4'th, etc just keep using them aggressively once hive tech is out.
So it's not worth deliberately sacing them in favor of infestors and/or bigger mobile army? Should I be getting ranged upgrades then (we're talking about variations of bio, of course I would be getting ranged upgrades versus mech)?
Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
So, you'd say you crush it pretty convincingly most, if not every time you face it? That's pretty cool. Any chance you could post more replays? I've only seen the one in the OP.
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
So, you'd say you crush it pretty convincingly most, if not every time you face it? That's pretty cool. Any chance you could post more replays? I've only seen the one in the OP.
On March 27 2013 17:59 gronnelg wrote: Ok. So infestors are preferable to vipers then? Do you rely on infestors for anti air? Is it viable ot have both infestors and vipers?
For anti air I am thinking of adding in corruptors to focus medivacs and stuff then morphing them into broods after. I am seeing more zergs doing this and it might be worth doing.
Also yes infestors are preferable because even with blinding cloud terran can still kite your ultras to death so you need a way to keep the units in place so ultras can slaughter them. If you can get both do that, but that is pretty gas intensive.
On March 27 2013 17:59 gronnelg wrote: Ok. So infestors are preferable to vipers then? Do you rely on infestors for anti air? Is it viable ot have both infestors and vipers?
For anti air I am thinking of adding in corruptors to focus medivacs and stuff then morphing them into broods after. I am seeing more zergs doing this and it might be worth doing.
Also yes infestors are preferable because even with blinding cloud terran can still kite your ultras to death so you need a way to keep the units in place so ultras can slaughter them. If you can get both do that, but that is pretty gas intensive.
It is gas intensive, but in the late game where you have 5k/3k, not so much. :D
And you don't have to mass them if you don't have a lot of gas, instead of 10 Infestors, you can go for like 6 Infestors and 3-4 Vipers. It is still much better, especially vs. Bio if you manage to hit both Fungal and Blinding Cloud at the same time.
Btw, watched some of your replays from that thread, I love how you basically go for every unit against Terran. :D You start with Lings and Roaches, few more Queens for spread, go for Banelings and Mutalisks, transition into Swarm Hosts when you start Hive, go for Vipers and Ultralisks, and then add Brood Lords and Infestors. Almost every unit in the Zerg arsenal except for Hydras(and you even use them in some cases), I love it. Zerg feels great in HotS, I love all of the options! :D
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
So, you'd say you crush it pretty convincingly most, if not every time you face it? That's pretty cool. Any chance you could post more replays? I've only seen the one in the OP.
In that replay pack, you face some type of sentry immortal all-in three times, and lose to it each time. Can you post replays of your style defeating it?
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
So, you'd say you crush it pretty convincingly most, if not every time you face it? That's pretty cool. Any chance you could post more replays? I've only seen the one in the OP.
In that replay pack, you face some type of sentry immortal all-in three times, and lose to it each time. Can you post replays of your style defeating it?
On the replays on the korean server honestly all the ones that immo all ind me I wasn't even thinking of them doing it until they moved out and then I kinda died. Need to spine and get swarmhosts out if you are going to do swarmhost otherwise you be dead :p
If beta replays worked I would send you those but alas they dont
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
So, you'd say you crush it pretty convincingly most, if not every time you face it? That's pretty cool. Any chance you could post more replays? I've only seen the one in the OP.
In that replay pack, you face some type of sentry immortal all-in three times, and lose to it each time. Can you post replays of your style defeating it?
On the replays on the korean server honestly all the ones that immo all ind me I wasn't even thinking of them doing it until they moved out and then I kinda died. Need to spine and get swarmhosts out if you are going to do swarmhost otherwise you be dead :p
If beta replays worked I would send you those but alas they dont
So, when you do know it's coming and you prepare properly for it like you just mentioned, you have a pretty high success rate against it?
On March 27 2013 15:18 TFS wrote: Concerning using the ZvP style you detail in order to defend against a sentry/immortal all-in by using swarm hosts, isn't there a variation of the push that hits before swarm hosts come out? I mean, you can get about 4 swarm hosts out around 10:15, no? I've seen in streams GM Protoss players practically reaching the Zerg's third by 9:30 or 9:45. What do you do in this situation?
To be honest every GM toss I play does the build horribly. On korea I played 2 tosses who did immortal all in and they can reach your base by about 10 minutes with delaying. It's a let your third die and spine your natural while you wait for the swarmhosts (not TO many spines just enough to defend/delay until swarmhosts are out).
So, you'd say you crush it pretty convincingly most, if not every time you face it? That's pretty cool. Any chance you could post more replays? I've only seen the one in the OP.
In that replay pack, you face some type of sentry immortal all-in three times, and lose to it each time. Can you post replays of your style defeating it?
On the replays on the korean server honestly all the ones that immo all ind me I wasn't even thinking of them doing it until they moved out and then I kinda died. Need to spine and get swarmhosts out if you are going to do swarmhost otherwise you be dead :p
If beta replays worked I would send you those but alas they dont
So, when you do know it's coming and you prepare properly for it like you just mentioned, you have a pretty high success rate against it?
Yeah I haven't really faced it much though even in beta it was rare so it's not like I have a lot of games to go by.
Well, just to be sure... your ZvP build aim to be prepared for all the 10m pushes, and the roach warren and +1 ranged is for the earlier pushes (with speedling / spines) ? Plat noob question here, so sorry if obvious, but ZvP is the only matchup where I have no real game plan / game awareness.
I'm seeing a few players use ling/roaches in ZvP and completely ignoring air, meanwhile building a fair amount of queens and spreading creep across the map. When ultras are out, push with ultra/ling/queens, as the latter do very good against voidrays, much better than hydras, and can also keep ultras alive. I've watched a GM zerg do this with ~75% winrate and it looked pretty much unstoppable unless facing some sort of 4gate all-in.
In ZvZ using the muta guide what do you do if he turtles a little bit with spores and goes roach hydra? Expand and switch to roach hydra infestor?
I don't like that idea, you're basically playing on his grounds, where he has upgrade and quantity advantage. Stick to ling/muta and abuse your mobility to deny his expansions. You can also engage hydras until there's too many of them, as mutas will be back to full health quite fast. Meanwhile, tech to ultras as they absolutely crush roach/hydra comp.
On March 28 2013 17:07 RandomQueen wrote: Thanks very much blade for this awesome guide !
Well, just to be sure... your ZvP build aim to be prepared for all the 10m pushes, and the roach warren and +1 ranged is for the earlier pushes (with speedling / spines) ? Plat noob question here, so sorry if obvious, but ZvP is the only matchup where I have no real game plan / game awareness.
Yes, make sure to watch the replays to as it really shows a good way to play zvp
On March 28 2013 17:07 RandomQueen wrote: Thanks very much blade for this awesome guide !
Well, just to be sure... your ZvP build aim to be prepared for all the 10m pushes, and the roach warren and +1 ranged is for the earlier pushes (with speedling / spines) ? Plat noob question here, so sorry if obvious, but ZvP is the only matchup where I have no real game plan / game awareness.
Yes, make sure to watch the replays to as it really shows a good way to play zvp
Ok thanks, I planned to watch them today.
By the way thanks to you my ZvZ is better after like 5-10 match than it was years ago when I stopped playing (~90% Win), and my ZvT is decent for Plat league (~50%). If I catch the idea of your ZvP I will be back in my old ELO in no time. I think you dont need me to continue your job but please do :D !
This is a style I started doing on hots release and is very solid versus bio + widow mine. The past week I have seen korean zergs starting to do this style as well (I know their not copying me).
So the zerg should open up like typical ling/bane/muta. This style will play out just like normal muta/ling/baneling and the zerg should not start adding in swarmhosts until the zerg has 14-16 mutalisks, 2/2 melee and carapace and hive tech. The transition into swarmhosts is to start after this. So once the zerg starts hive the zerg should be adding in 10 swarmhosts. If the zerg uses the swarmhosts correctly by not being overly aggressive with them and put a good distance back, the zerg should hold any bio + widow mine push easily.
The zerg should have mutalisks to deal with any drop play and some ling/bane at a couple bases so that if the mutalisks are out of position the drop can still be dealt with, with minimal damage. Once the zerg has 10 swarmhosts they should be using it to supplement the army and have the locusts draw the fire from widow mines. The zerg can also use them to kill them if they have proper overseer placement.
Now once hive finishes the zerg should be teching to either broodlords or ultralisks. Both work great and going ultra then broodlord then back to ultralisk is a great thing to do. The end game composition is going to be ultra/ling/bane/swarmhost/infestor and the zerg can add in vipers later. If the zerg loses swarmhosts they do not have to remake them, but you shouldn't lose them unless they are out of position so try to avoid that. This is very strong versus the bio widow mine and the zerg can decide not to do this if the zerg is facing marine/tank.
Best way to Fight Sky Toss The composition of templar/voidray/colo or tempest/colo/templar/voidray. The dreaded composition that zergs are struggling versus right now. This is a strategy that I have finally found out how to fight and beat in a head on engagement.If the zerg can deny this composition that's better, but if not the best way to fight it is to go the composition of ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper.
So the zerg needs to have approximately 12 swarmhosts, 3-5 ultralisks 4-6 vipers, rest hydralisks. The best way to use the composition is to have ultras + swarmhosts locusts go first and then send in hydras with the vipers abducting colossi or the air units. The swarmhost locust + ultralisks will tank damage and kill colossi/templar pretty easily and that leaves just hydralisks which can deal with mass voidray/tempest as long as the zerg can use vipers to abduct as well on tempest/carrier. Now in a straight up 200/200 fight the zerg will lose all the hydralisks, but the remax will crush the left over air of the protoss and thus the zerg will have defeated that unit.
I've been having trouble with the hydra/ultra/sh/viper comp vs Protoss deathballs. I usually try to tech to hive around 12:00. At this time +1/+1 is done and +2/+2 is starting, the hydra and locust upgrades are finishing up, and I am starting to pump about 20 hydras and 12 swarm hosts. Once I hit hive, I usually get a few vipers (and extra evos to consume) before starting my ultralisks cavern. Is this a good order to build my army in, or should I start making ultras before vipers?
Also, should I not bother with blinding cloud against colossus/stalkers and only use viper energy for abducting only? Even when fgoing head to head with 200/200 armies, with me being a base or 2 up on the toss, I still find my army gets demolished after only killing a fraction of his. My vipers die right off the bat, and my hydras and ultras fall very quickly to colossus/voids/ht/carriers/archons, leaving only my burrowed swarmhosts, which get cleaned up shortly thereafter. Maybe it's just terrible micro on my part, but I feel like I need to engage in a perfect position to make this composition work. I am not good at abducting/clouding with vipers and burrowing/repositioning my swarmhosts while trying to get a concave for my hydras while the Protoss just a-moves and maybe casts a storm or 2 to much greater effect.
On March 29 2013 10:17 Frankie Teardrop wrote: I've been having trouble with the hydra/ultra/sh/viper comp vs Protoss deathballs. I usually try to tech to hive around 12:00. At this time +1/+1 is done and +2/+2 is starting, the hydra and locust upgrades are finishing up, and I am starting to pump about 20 hydras and 12 swarm hosts. Once I hit hive, I usually get a few vipers (and extra evos to consume) before starting my ultralisks cavern. Is this a good order to build my army in, or should I start making ultras before vipers?
Also, should I not bother with blinding cloud against colossus/stalkers and only use viper energy for abducting only? Even when fgoing head to head with 200/200 armies, with me being a base or 2 up on the toss, I still find my army gets demolished after only killing a fraction of his. My vipers die right off the bat, and my hydras and ultras fall very quickly to colossus/voids/ht/carriers/archons, leaving only my burrowed swarmhosts, which get cleaned up shortly thereafter. Maybe it's just terrible micro on my part, but I feel like I need to engage in a perfect position to make this composition work. I am not good at abducting/clouding with vipers and burrowing/repositioning my swarmhosts while trying to get a concave for my hydras while the Protoss just a-moves and maybe casts a storm or 2 to much greater effect.
Yes you want to focus the abducts on the colossi. The colossi if you can abduct them and get rid of them it's just sooo much easier to engage the late game protoss army.
Honestly the late game engagement goes to how both of you control, does protoss feedback vipers? No? Does zerg control vipers to not get feedbacked, have ultras in front? It really is all about the control from both players which is better then wol style where it was just if zerg spread bl/corr/infestor he was fine .
On March 28 2013 17:11 d07.RiV wrote: I'm seeing a few players use ling/roaches in ZvP and completely ignoring air, meanwhile building a fair amount of queens and spreading creep across the map. When ultras are out, push with ultra/ling/queens, as the latter do very good against voidrays, much better than hydras, and can also keep ultras alive. I've watched a GM zerg do this with ~75% winrate and it looked pretty much unstoppable unless facing some sort of 4gate all-in.
I also saw some of games like this, and actually is pretty funny how good it seems. You just skip everything, go for 3-4 bases, and just tech straight up to the Hive, with just Speedlings and Roaches, and go Ultras instantly while massing Queens. You will have superior ground army because of the Ultralisks, and because he went skytoss, and mass Queens do really well, with their high range(7) against air, 175 hp for 150 minerals, and they aren't armored. That together with transfuse, I think that they beat Voids cost per cost pretty convincingly.
On March 28 2013 17:11 d07.RiV wrote: I'm seeing a few players use ling/roaches in ZvP and completely ignoring air, meanwhile building a fair amount of queens and spreading creep across the map. When ultras are out, push with ultra/ling/queens, as the latter do very good against voidrays, much better than hydras, and can also keep ultras alive. I've watched a GM zerg do this with ~75% winrate and it looked pretty much unstoppable unless facing some sort of 4gate all-in.
I also saw some of games like this, and actually is pretty funny how good it seems. You just skip everything, go for 3-4 bases, and just tech straight up to the Hive, with just Speedlings and Roaches, and go Ultras instantly while massing Queens. You will have superior ground army because of the Ultralisks, and because he went skytoss, and mass Queens do really well, with their high range(7) against air, 175 hp for 150 minerals, and they aren't armored. That together with transfuse, I think that they beat Voids cost per cost pretty convincingly.
To be honest I am not a fan. With what I do zvp now I rarely lose in a macro game and I see no reason to change it when I win most of the time.
I used to do this in beta though fast ultra, it has some vulnerabilities if protoss is keeping tabs on your hive timing and unit count. I am not a big fan of this at all and mass queens I was never a fan of and could never do it due to how boring/slow the unit is.
I also don't struggle versus sky toss it's a pretty easy win for me and I rarely lose in the late game so no reason for me to want to try something I know I don't like but I imagine it's strong as most protosses wouldn't expect it.
Just wanted to say thanks for writing this, after a few seasons in plat I got to Diamond at the end of WoL, then after reading this guide and playing about 100 games I just got promoted to Masters!
Hey! Yesteday I was watching IdrA's stream, and he talked about using corruptors in ZvZ. Seeing as they are quite tanky, and that the main strategy in ZvZ is to do mutalisk, I'd want to see your opinion on them being any reliable. For now, I only get them when I feel far behind, and use all my excess minerals to deny my opponents third, but once that goes down they tend to switch to hydra muta force, which basically makes all my corruptors useless. So what do you think? Are corruptors useful on ZvZ?
On March 30 2013 00:11 Xardov wrote: Hey! Yesteday I was watching IdrA's stream, and he talked about using corruptors in ZvZ. Seeing as they are quite tanky, and that the main strategy in ZvZ is to do mutalisk, I'd want to see your opinion on them being any reliable. For now, I only get them when I feel far behind, and use all my excess minerals to deny my opponents third, but once that goes down they tend to switch to hydra muta force, which basically makes all my corruptors useless. So what do you think? Are corruptors useful on ZvZ?
Well, corruptors basically mean your muta/corruptor pack sacrifices its speed. Your opponent will never have to fight your flock straight on, and can pick off expansions left and right. So.. I'd say no.
On March 30 2013 00:11 Xardov wrote: Hey! Yesteday I was watching IdrA's stream, and he talked about using corruptors in ZvZ. Seeing as they are quite tanky, and that the main strategy in ZvZ is to do mutalisk, I'd want to see your opinion on them being any reliable. For now, I only get them when I feel far behind, and use all my excess minerals to deny my opponents third, but once that goes down they tend to switch to hydra muta force, which basically makes all my corruptors useless. So what do you think? Are corruptors useful on ZvZ?
Well, corruptors basically mean your muta/corruptor pack sacrifices its speed. Your opponent will never have to fight your flock straight on, and can pick off expansions left and right. So.. I'd say no.
This. I mean maybe it is fine, but if you go corruptors your mobility is going to be no where near as good as the pure muta player. I feel like it wouldn't be good, but there is always a chance it is.
On March 29 2013 23:25 CMMBL wrote: And if they add some carriers and there are no colossi, what is the best composition to destroy their army?
Vipers + hydra and swarmhost/ultra same thing. Swarmhost/ultra to take care of templar, vipers to abduct colossi and hydra shoot them .
Thanks for the guide , ZvZ is my main problem . Don't like the new muta style , Really miss WoL , the steps and transitions that happened , now it's just long bling , into long bling muta , such a shame !
On March 31 2013 03:47 MrSourGit wrote: Thanks for the guide , ZvZ is my main problem . Don't like the new muta style , Really miss WoL , the steps and transitions that happened , now it's just long bling , into long bling muta , such a shame !
Guess I am one of a kind I hated wol zvz so much I love hots zvz compared to wol tbh
Masters Z from WoL who just picked up HotS. Simple question: what maps should I veto? I know a "real" competitive player would play all maps but I am a casual hack who just wants to play games most favorable to Z style.
Masters Z from WoL who just picked up HotS. Simple question: what maps should I veto? I know a "real" competitive player would play all maps but I am a casual hack who just wants to play games most favorable to Z style.
Thanks and fantastic guide.
Nah even a real competitive player vetos shit maps . I veto newkirk and korhal compound. I like the rest of the maps.
I just dont understand why to start +1 melee first rather than range in video vs colossus/voidray. Didnt build any melee untis so isnt +1 range better?
On March 31 2013 22:21 LoreSC wrote: I just dont understand why to start +1 melee first rather than range in video vs colossus/voidray. Didnt build any melee untis so isnt +1 range better?
That video is old, I get +1 missile first now.
On April 01 2013 01:39 Stardroid wrote: Why in the zvz builds are you staggering the gasses so closely to each other? Why not get 3 more with lai at 0600?
I am not sure what you are talking about I start lair 5:50 - 6 minutes with 1 gas, then get gases 2 and 3 as soon as lair starts, 20 seconds later I get my 4'th gas.
On April 01 2013 04:27 Xorphene wrote: Some Zergs who are giving coaching recommend roach hydra viper in ZvP, but I feel this style is too open to one bad engagement and you lose.
What are your thoughts on it vs your recommended style?
My thoughts on it are it's a really bad composition. Honestly zergs need to be shying away from roach/hydra, it's just not very good at all versus a good protoss who knows how to deal with it imo.
I think swarmhost/roach/hydra is far, far superior to roach/hydra/viper or roach/hydra/corruptor or anything except with swarmhosts. I get mainly hydra with swarmhost, but do have a few roaches to tank and what not along with the locusts. Once late game hits though roaches don't get made anymore and it's ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper. I feel this composition will soon be "standard" as zergs realize it crushes tempest/voidray/templar and all those death balls it can fight straight up as long as the zerg engages properly.
On April 01 2013 04:58 DysonCube wrote: With ZvZ as my worst matchup I dislike the idea of ling/bling wars continuing into the midgame. How far has HOTS actually shifted the ZvZ metagame?
Are WoL style roach plays entirely untenable in the current metagame even if mutalisks aren't scouted?
It really is the best way to play. Not going mutalisks right now in hots is putting yourself behind if the muta player plays correctly. If you as the zerg go straight hydra then you will just die to muta/ling/bane sense the infestors will be super late.
On April 01 2013 04:58 DysonCube wrote: With ZvZ as my worst matchup I dislike the idea of ling/bling wars continuing into the midgame. How far has HOTS actually shifted the ZvZ metagame?
Are WoL style roach plays entirely untenable in the current metagame even if mutalisks aren't scouted?
It really is the best way to play. Not going mutalisks right now in hots is putting yourself behind if the muta player plays correctly. If you as the zerg go straight hydra then you will just die to muta/ling/bane sense the infestors will be super late.
Thanks man. I better learn to micro mutalisks then. If my opponent goes mutalisks as well as me would I be better to just continue along with mutalisk wars rather than teching to infestor? (Sorry by the way I pretty much have no clue about HOTS)
On April 01 2013 04:58 DysonCube wrote: With ZvZ as my worst matchup I dislike the idea of ling/bling wars continuing into the midgame. How far has HOTS actually shifted the ZvZ metagame?
Are WoL style roach plays entirely untenable in the current metagame even if mutalisks aren't scouted?
It really is the best way to play. Not going mutalisks right now in hots is putting yourself behind if the muta player plays correctly. If you as the zerg go straight hydra then you will just die to muta/ling/bane sense the infestors will be super late.
Thanks man. I better learn to micro mutalisks then. If my opponent goes mutalisks as well as me would I be better to just continue along with mutalisk wars rather than teching to infestor? (Sorry by the way I pretty much have no clue about HOTS)
You can do multiple things, you can go muta/ling/bane (which is what I do) or you can do a muta/roach timing into roach/hydra/infestor. That's really up to you.
I have been messing with muta/ling/bane and then adding in swarmhosts, but still not sure how I feel about it yet (while teching to get ultralisks to). I don't face non muta play very much so hard to know if what I am trying is good or not .
My thoughts on it are it's a really bad composition. Honestly zergs need to be shying away from roach/hydra, it's just not very good at all versus a good protoss who knows how to deal with it imo.
I think swarmhost/roach/hydra is far, far superior to roach/hydra/viper or roach/hydra/corruptor or anything except with swarmhosts. I get mainly hydra with swarmhost, but do have a few roaches to tank and what not along with the locusts. Once late game hits though roaches don't get made anymore and it's ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper. I feel this composition will soon be "standard" as zergs realize it crushes tempest/voidray/templar and all those death balls it can fight straight up as long as the zerg engages properly.
On April 01 2013 04:58 DysonCube wrote: With ZvZ as my worst matchup I dislike the idea of ling/bling wars continuing into the midgame. How far has HOTS actually shifted the ZvZ metagame?
Are WoL style roach plays entirely untenable in the current metagame even if mutalisks aren't scouted?
It really is the best way to play. Not going mutalisks right now in hots is putting yourself behind if the muta player plays correctly. If you as the zerg go straight hydra then you will just die to muta/ling/bane sense the infestors will be super late.
Thanks man. I better learn to micro mutalisks then. If my opponent goes mutalisks as well as me would I be better to just continue along with mutalisk wars rather than teching to infestor? (Sorry by the way I pretty much have no clue about HOTS)
You can do multiple things, you can go muta/ling/bane (which is what I do) or you can do a muta/roach timing into roach/hydra/infestor. That's really up to you.
I have been messing with muta/ling/bane and then adding in swarmhosts, but still not sure how I feel about it yet (while teching to get ultralisks to). I don't face non muta play very much so hard to know if what I am trying is good or not .
So far Plat ZvZ in HOTS for me has just been one cheese after another so it's pretty hard to get a handle on what is good at the moment. Thanks for the help, I guess its time for me to set the AI to straight to air and figure out what the hell I'm doing.
On April 01 2013 04:58 DysonCube wrote: With ZvZ as my worst matchup I dislike the idea of ling/bling wars continuing into the midgame. How far has HOTS actually shifted the ZvZ metagame?
Are WoL style roach plays entirely untenable in the current metagame even if mutalisks aren't scouted?
I don't like ling/bling into mutas either so I open roach and go for 2base speed roach timing with burrow and +1 attack while taking my third. It hits before mutas are out so you can deny their third. Then I just get a lot of spores and drone like crazy and go for a 3base roach/hydra/infestor push pretty much.
It's a bit gimmicky and it probably doesn't work very well against decent players, but it works fine in mid masters.
what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
Thanks, blade. This post is very helpful. I'm trying to use the ling/bane/muta to ling/bane/muta/sh against T. I have a question about how many sh should i make to transition to late game against the bio+wm compostion? How many sh is enough to tank the wm attacks since they are quite expensive. I also planning to transition to ultras in late game. I'm still quite confuse about how to use swarm hosts since they are quite immobile and easy to be killed by bio+stim+scan
On April 02 2013 03:50 Yunxing wrote: Thanks, blade. This post is very helpful. I'm trying to use the ling/bane/muta to ling/bane/muta/sh against T. I have a question about how many sh should i make to transition to late game against the bio+wm compostion? How many sh is enough to tank the wm attacks since they are quite expensive. I also planning to transition to ultras in late game. I'm still quite confuse about how to use swarm hosts since they are quite immobile and easy to be killed by bio+stim+scan
The video goes over most of those questions. 10 swarmhosts is perfect number, ALWAYS have ling/bane support at minimum with the swarmhosts and you still get ultras late game .
Hey blade! I really find your guides helpful and you're so awesome for helping people out!I have some questions.
1)ZvP,I push with SH/Hydra/Roach when I get 10 SH. Should I be pushing earlier? Later? How many SH do I want for the late game? How many Ultra/Viper? 2)In ZvZ, I find myself losing constantly to Roach Hydra players. How would you reccomend playing vs that style as a Muta Ling Bane player in ZvZ?
Thanks in advance.
EDIT: Wow, i'm sorry, just re read the post and saw you answered question 2. Very sorry!
On April 02 2013 09:09 LucoxP wrote: Hey blade! I really find your guides helpful and you're so awesome for helping people out!I have some questions.
1)ZvP,I push with SH/Hydra/Roach when I get 10 SH. Should I be pushing earlier? Later? How many SH do I want for the late game? How many Ultra/Viper? 2)In ZvZ, I find myself losing constantly to Roach Hydra players. How would you reccomend playing vs that style as a Muta Ling Bane player in ZvZ?
Thanks in advance.
EDIT: Wow, i'm sorry, just re read the post and saw you answered question 2. Very sorry!
1. Pushing out once you have 10 SH is a good timing. You want 12-14 swarmhosts late game, 3-5 ultra 4-6 vipers.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
On April 02 2013 16:02 Rossie wrote: Pretty comical how thin this is compared with the corresponding guide for Protoss.
So much for the theory that Protoss is a noob race that relies on cheese.
lol? Not sure what this has to do with this strategy but you realize that thread was made in november of 2012 right? There was also a huge announcement for it as well.
This ones only been out 2 in a half weeks :O. But again what your post has to do with this guide at all is really out of place ^^.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
Idra made a Razer Academy video highlighting a similar 3base Swarm Host ZvP. Everyone trying to emulate Swarm Host in ZvP should watch it, very informative.
Idra stays on Swarm Host/Roach/Ling for quite some time here, and transitions into Corruptor instead of Viper/Ultra (like blade). The basic idea is the same though.
What I found interesting, is when he discusses "forcing" the Protoss to make a midgame army. Many Zerg are scared of the skytoss deathball, and I found that (at my newbie level) a Protoss can't go directly to air (Carrier/Tempest) and not die to Swarm Host sieging. They need Colossus and some Gateway army to hold their third/fourth. Just like many Protoss try to force roach/ling instead (early gate attacks) or hydra (stargate) so Zerg can't drone uncontested, so can Zerg force Protoss to make an actual ground army.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
since you pulled this off a lot: do think its holdable and being ahead with 15h 16p? right now i am doing a 13 dronescout on 2 playermaps, stall with drones, and once pool finishes instantly build 2 spines in main, very few lings to just stall, queen main and add drones and queens after that. dont know how viable this is vs a good player though.
also tinking about building 4 lings at natural and sending them to opponents base but not sure if i have the minerals to do so since i havent played vs 888 in some time now.
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
Honestly it is ironic how you have more chances to lose against a bronze/silver league than against a master...
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
since you pulled this off a lot: do think its holdable and being ahead with 15h 16p? right now i am doing a 13 dronescout on 2 playermaps, stall with drones, and once pool finishes instantly build 2 spines in main, very few lings to just stall, queen main and add drones and queens after that. dont know how viable this is vs a good player though.
also tinking about building 4 lings at natural and sending them to opponents base but not sure if i have the minerals to do so since i havent played vs 888 in some time now.
Sending lings will be quite easy to see for the reapers (I do like to send a SCV to the watch tower) and walling off the main base is really easy too, I don't think this is a good option unless it's really unseen. But you may need these lings at home to get you some time.
I think you *can* not die against 8/8/8 with 15 hatch 16 gaz 16 pool, but you really have to focus really hard on having that gaz to get speed. You don't want to create too much slow lings because i can simply kite them to death without losing a single hp. It's only to win time... The real problem is that when there are more than 3-4 reapers, queens will be focus to death rapidly, and it will be mandatory to back them to the spine.
If there is only one spine, you can still harass and deny mining for long, and the reapers number will increase (snowball...) I didn't play too much against 2 early spines. I think people tend to do the second one too late and I can cancel it...
The only way to *Not Die* to it for me while doing the 15 hatch16 pool is to build a spine to protect the gaz until 100, and then putting the spine crawler to the mineral line and focus on lings production while backing always the hurt drone with mineral walk to scare the reaper with the other drones very carefully. It's really micro intensive for the zerg to not lose 3-4 drones and then this is just almost over because of the snowball effect. You really need to NOT pull like 10 drones to follow the reaper.... It's like free non-mining time for me and I can kill drone even easier
As soon as you still have 6-8 lings and the speed upgrade finishes, you succeed at didn't die to it (you can be ahead, or not regarding what happened --> constant scv production behind it and CC etc...)
After all, I didn't play against the best reactions with 15 hatch. I won against all of them, but sometimes it was really really close (I have only average micro....). A lot of players just bet on the queens to push the reaper back, and don't know that 3 reapers can kill a queen with micro, and then pull back and heal themself. Even if the spine is exposed, it's easy to focus it for a long time and then just pull back every time a reaper is almost dead, heal, and come with more and more reapers...
The funny part is when people scout my opening, and still plant hatch first ... I mean, pool first with fast gaz is auto win against this...
EDIT : Hahaha yes Arhk, I lose 2 of my 5 placement matchs against silver or bronze players that 10 and 14 pool me with fast speed, and then went to master to have an easier time
On April 02 2013 02:11 Arisen wrote: what do you do against that super early 888 or whatever proxy reaper? I've never beaten it, they have so many reapers out before you even have any lings and i never seem to make the right number of lings and i either end up way way way behind economically or i just die outright.
I haven't lost to proxy 8 reaper yet. The reason is I scout really diligently for proxies and if you scout the proxy you win as an 8/8/8 if you kill the scv and not let the rax complete he's dead.
well, pro players lose to this, you can't catch a proxy every single time unless you're sending out 2 early drone scouts or something redonkulous. if he's not in an overlord patch or in view of a watchtower there has to be times where you don't catch him.
Hm you can if you know the proxy locations. I do drone scout earlier then most pros, seems most zerg pros don't drone scout until 14 or 15 food, I drone scout once I start my overlord and my 10nth drone goes to scout for proxies.
There is no reason not to scout it if you scout that early as long as you know the proxy locations.
I did forget to say what you should do if you don't scout it so that's my bad sorry about that.
The best way to defend against it is to send 3-4 drones, once they get weak on health make them extractors/spore/evo chamber/etc so they don't die (don't forget to cancel). You have to do this until lings pop and that's really the best response if you hatch first.
A platinum friend of mine just got into master this week end, by just chaining 8/8/8, against all match ups. He was amazed at how every zerg he faced just blindly 15 hatch 16 pool or even 15 hatch 16 extractor 16 pool without any drone scout, even facing high master. Needless to say it was autowin for my buddy, who is boasting his top 6 master ranking at the moment ^^.
I really think that in order to play out the build orders from this guide, you really need to drone scout (I tend to do exactly the same timing, drone scouting once overlord and 10th drone started), and swap out 15 hatch for 15 pool in case of no rax in the terran main.
Well, with the size of the map these day if you want to adjust your pool timing in order to react to a 8/8/8 it's somewhere between 9-12 drone scout I'd guess which is a consequent investment. Maybe it'll be necessary but I still think the best solution is still to learn how to control your drone in order to minimize the damage and get speed asap, I still drone scout but later just so I know I go for gaz first or pool first (or 3 hatch against CC first), but not sooner than 16 and I'm not sure that 15 pool is better than 15 hatch/16pool. But it's a build harder to defend than to perform, in the end if it's really imbalanced it'll get nerfed somehow, if it is not we'll just need to improve, even if it's harder for us.
I'm the guy who is master (got top 5) right now just doing 8/8/8 in every matchup.... I was a zerg then protoss diamond player, and started to learn terran at the end of WOL, not getting higher than platinium level. I was diamond protoss in HOTS Beta and restarted terran for HOTS.
The real power of 8/8/8 is that nobody really scout before putting hatchfirst as zerg, or doing fast gaz or 1rax expo builds even when they scout my no-rax at the front build and early gaz... I don't really care about size of the 4 players maps, as i just can veto them. I win even against master protoss that don't keep putting probes in gaz with my harass, and prefer doing stalker as MSC.
I really think you either need to drone scout at 9-10 to see it before you plant your hatch first, and then planting your pool and gaz sooner if you see nothing and a gaz, or you just 15 pool 15 gaz and auto win against 8/8/8.
since you pulled this off a lot: do think its holdable and being ahead with 15h 16p? right now i am doing a 13 dronescout on 2 playermaps, stall with drones, and once pool finishes instantly build 2 spines in main, very few lings to just stall, queen main and add drones and queens after that. dont know how viable this is vs a good player though.
also tinking about building 4 lings at natural and sending them to opponents base but not sure if i have the minerals to do so since i havent played vs 888 in some time now.
Sending lings will be quite easy to see for the reapers (I do like to send a SCV to the watch tower) and walling off the main base is really easy too, I don't think this is a good option unless it's really unseen. But you may need these lings at home to get you some time.
I think you *can* not die against 8/8/8 with 15 hatch 16 gaz 16 pool, but you really have to focus really hard on having that gaz to get speed. You don't want to create too much slow lings because i can simply kite them to death without losing a single hp. It's only to win time... The real problem is that when there are more than 3-4 reapers, queens will be focus to death rapidly, and it will be mandatory to back them to the spine.
If there is only one spine, you can still harass and deny mining for long, and the reapers number will increase (snowball...) I didn't play too much against 2 early spines. I think people tend to do the second one too late and I can cancel it...
The only way to *Not Die* to it for me while doing the 15 hatch16 pool is to build a spine to protect the gaz until 100, and then putting the spine crawler to the mineral line and focus on lings production while backing always the hurt drone with mineral walk to scare the reaper with the other drones very carefully. It's really micro intensive for the zerg to not lose 3-4 drones and then this is just almost over because of the snowball effect. You really need to NOT pull like 10 drones to follow the reaper.... It's like free non-mining time for me and I can kill drone even easier
As soon as you still have 6-8 lings and the speed upgrade finishes, you succeed at didn't die to it (you can be ahead, or not regarding what happened --> constant scv production behind it and CC etc...)
After all, I didn't play against the best reactions with 15 hatch. I won against all of them, but sometimes it was really really close (I have only average micro....). A lot of players just bet on the queens to push the reaper back, and don't know that 3 reapers can kill a queen with micro, and then pull back and heal themself. Even if the spine is exposed, it's easy to focus it for a long time and then just pull back every time a reaper is almost dead, heal, and come with more and more reapers...
The funny part is when people scout my opening, and still plant hatch first ... I mean, pool first with fast gaz is auto win against this...
thanks for the detailed answer!!
actually i do it all gasless (the 2 spine and 1 queen thing) and then add 2 gases and a roach warren. while you are right speedlings are very nice vs reaper there are 3 problems: early gas will mean you have even less minerals for queens, lings, spines and drones (4 less drones mining is huge at that time), your pool will be delayed even more with gas before pool and even once speed finishes you will need a lot of lings (= a lot of larvae) to push back 4-5 reaper.
i got no time today, but i would really like to play some games tomorrow if you want to
If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
Yea, i'm posting in the strategy section asking how to defeat a strategy and being "sarcastic" <--- This is me being sarcastic. I keep losing to it over and over.Your advice doesn't really help me. Like do I cancel hatch? Get gas? Get bane nest first or speed? Spine? How many Queens/Lings?
On April 03 2013 00:20 LucoxP wrote: Yea, i'm posting in the strategy section asking how to defeat a strategy and being "sarcastic" <--- This is me being sarcastic. I keep losing to it over and over.Your advice doesn't really help me. Like do I cancel hatch? Get gas? Get bane nest first or speed? Spine? How many Queens/Lings?
Well, I assumed you were sarcastic since it has been talked about since Wing of liberty beta, and there are plenty of guides on the matter.
On April 02 2013 21:16 theMarkovian wrote: Idra made a Razer Academy video highlighting a similar 3base Swarm Host ZvP. Everyone trying to emulate Swarm Host in ZvP should watch it, very informative.
Idra stays on Swarm Host/Roach/Ling for quite some time here, and transitions into Corruptor instead of Viper/Ultra (like blade). The basic idea is the same though.
What I found interesting, is when he discusses "forcing" the Protoss to make a midgame army. Many Zerg are scared of the skytoss deathball, and I found that (at my newbie level) a Protoss can't go directly to air (Carrier/Tempest) and not die to Swarm Host sieging. They need Colossus and some Gateway army to hold their third/fourth. Just like many Protoss try to force roach/ling instead (early gate attacks) or hydra (stargate) so Zerg can't drone uncontested, so can Zerg force Protoss to make an actual ground army.
I used to do the same thing, but protosses started having timings and stuff that could kill you (and it made fighting the voidray/colossi deathball impossible to fight sense corruptors suck ass vs the voidrays). That is why I still do it but skip spire and go straight hive and get vipers.
I do swarmhost aggression in zvp as it is since beta to as it is incredibly powerful and it's my main strategy zvp. For me if I get sh out I rarely lose zvp once it gets to that point .
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
1. When a 6 pool you pull drones + use lings and you'll hold no problem. If he 6 pools you might have to cancel the hatch this is really on what he does, if he goes straight into main then don't cancel hatch, if he goes straight for hatchery well cancel it last second cause a 6 pool has to do a ton of damage. Mineral walk with drones is great then with drone + ling you will hold anything no problem.
2. vs 10 pool you can have a small timing window to do some heavy ling/bane aggression and will probably kill him as when they do a 10 pool and get a fast hatchery their gas is VERY delayed. So far whenever I do 15 pool/16 hatch/16 gas I do a counter speedling/bane aggression and I normally kill them.
ZvP, I read that I need to put the 3rd at 21... is that in answer to FFE / nexus first ? Because I got crushed every single time in early game. I won one time because the toss did FFE (Hydra SH vs Skytoss, very effective).
If he dont fast expo, when should I put my 3rd ?
Added to that, when I put the 3rd at 21 I have the feeling to have like 0 eco for a long time, is that normal ? Even when droning only ?
On April 03 2013 05:37 RandomQueen wrote: Hey Blade, another noob question !
ZvP, I read that I need to put the 3rd at 21... is that in answer to FFE / nexus first ? Because I got crushed every single time in early game. I won one time because the toss did FFE (Hydra SH vs Skytoss, very effective).
If he dont fast expo, when should I put my 3rd ?
Added to that, when I put the 3rd at 21 I have the feeling to have like 0 eco for a long time, is that normal ? Even when droning only ?
Thanks
If he doesn't FFE you place your third when he takes his natural.
On April 03 2013 05:42 RandomQueen wrote: Thanks for the answer
Yes that answer is correct but do not think he can't do any sort of 5 gate pressure afterwards. When a protoss goes 1 gate FE he kind of has to do some sort of pressure or he will put himself behind economically. The most common is a 5 gate which is pretty much a do or die as he has to do damage with it or he will be in an almost unwinnable situation.
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
What do you mean by mineral walking? Like do you mineral walk to your natural, or do you just pull back the drones closes to his lings, but still in you main mineral line?
Yes I always do the Roach Warren. In fact I follow your builds at the moment (with some variations like Baneling Nest before Speedling) to learn why they are like this and what are the "weak points". That's how I died ten times to protoss before figure out that fast 3rd is situational :D
I will go ask some timings in the Pro Q/A and I think I will understand better the game.
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
What do you mean by mineral walking? Like do you mineral walk to your natural, or do you just pull back the drones closes to his lings, but still in you main mineral line?
By mineral walking he is talking about selecting your drones and clicking a mineral patch, this makes them combine themselves in a way and go through units so you can get a surround or avoid the lings getting a surround and killing a bunch of workers.
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
What do you mean by mineral walking? Like do you mineral walk to your natural, or do you just pull back the drones closes to his lings, but still in you main mineral line?
By mineral walking he is talking about selecting your drones and clicking a mineral patch, this makes them combine themselves in a way and go through units so you can get a surround or avoid the lings getting a surround and killing a bunch of workers.
Right, I guess I was a bit unclear. I know what mineral walking is, but I'm a bit confused as to were you mineral walk to? Like, do you stay in you main mineral line, and try got get a surround/avoid getting drones killed, or do you minral walk to you natural to completly avoid the lings?
On April 02 2013 23:44 LucoxP wrote: If you open in ZvZ with 14 pool 15 hatch 15 gas, What do you do when... 1)6-9 pool allin comes? 2)10 pool economic comes? 3)10 pool speedling and/or baneling allin comes?
Is it sarcastic ?
When 6-10 pool comes you mineral walk until queen or ling poppe, since pool 6 / 9 doesn't use any fast speed ranged unit, like the reaper.
When 10 pool baneling comes, it is extremely dicey, I see loads of GM zerg player losing to this so I don't really get your point.
What do you mean by mineral walking? Like do you mineral walk to your natural, or do you just pull back the drones closes to his lings, but still in you main mineral line?
By mineral walking he is talking about selecting your drones and clicking a mineral patch, this makes them combine themselves in a way and go through units so you can get a surround or avoid the lings getting a surround and killing a bunch of workers.
Right, I guess I was a bit unclear. I know what mineral walking is, but I'm a bit confused as to were you mineral walk to? Like, do you stay in you main mineral line, and try got get a surround/avoid getting drones killed, or do you minral walk to you natural to completly avoid the lings?
Here is what I do vs early pools: I select a small group of drones (Normally the first 2-3 mineral patches) on the side the lings are coming in and send them away from the lings. If the lings pull out of my mineral line at that point, I do nothing, as there is no reason to delay mining. If the lings continue into my mineral line, about the midway point or so, I select all my drones, mineral walk to the opposite side, and when right on top of the lings, attack move. This should get you a near perfect surround and you can obliterate the lings with minimal losses.
ZvZ meta is muta vs muta currently, if one of the zergs decides not to go muta, they lose (this is at code S level).
But code S meta bleeds into the ladder sooner or later.
So I was thinking of a way to fix this. I can't post on the blizzard forums but if anybody wants to post it for me so blizz devs see it then please do, just remember to credit me.
Ok:
According to starcraft lore, Hydralisks have poisonous spines. So, they should do bonus damage vs biological. Nothing ridiculous, maybe something like +5 vs biological. This way, they can stand up to mutas. Obviously, it's a difficult balancing act, empower hydras too much and mutas may become useless.
Also, it might make roach hydra decent vs bio terrans.
Another thing about starcraft lore that might be something at least worth thinking about is, hydralisks are capable of travelling up and down vertical surfaces... should they be able to climb up and down cliffs? Or that may make them a super effective reaper?
In any case I think a + X damage to bio for hydralisks would make them worthy of being the mascot for the zerg race.
On April 04 2013 19:23 Duncaaaaaan wrote: ZvZ meta is muta vs muta currently, if one of the zergs decides not to go muta, they lose (this is at code S level).
But code S meta bleeds into the ladder sooner or later.
So I was thinking of a way to fix this. I can't post on the blizzard forums but if anybody wants to post it for me so blizz devs see it then please do, just remember to credit me.
Ok:
According to starcraft lore, Hydralisks have poisonous spines. So, they should do bonus damage vs biological. Nothing ridiculous, maybe something like +5 vs biological. This way, they can stand up to mutas. Obviously, it's a difficult balancing act, empower hydras too much and mutas may become useless.
Also, it might make roach hydra decent vs bio terrans.
Another thing about starcraft lore that might be something at least worth thinking about is, hydralisks are capable of travelling up and down vertical surfaces... should they be able to climb up and down cliffs? Or that may make them a super effective reaper?
In any case I think a + X damage to bio for hydralisks would make them worthy of being the mascot for the zerg race.
Well, although I do get your point, it´s not really the damage output hydras have vs mutas that makes it not viable. If the muta player sees the opponent going for hydras instead of mutas, he grabs baneling speed, 2 evos and stops making mutas at ~16. Then you basically grab an early hive and go for ultras. If the roach/hydra player attacks, roll over his hydras with a ton of speedbanes, and let the mutas clean up everything else.
This has worked for me 100% of my zvz vs someone that tried to beat me with roach/hydra (mid master level).
I have been practicing your zvp with swarm host pressure, i have some hydralisks with my swarmhosts for protection and obs sniping, the problem i have is warp prism warp ins into my main, how do you go about defending such attacks, do you overbuild static defenses or do you just leave some army in base? I am talking about 8-10 zealots and 1-2 dts
I have been practicing your zvp with swarm host pressure, i have some hydralisks with my swarmhosts for protection and obs sniping, the problem i have is warp prism warp ins into my main, how do you go about defending such attacks, do you overbuild static defenses or do you just leave some army in base? I am talking about 8-10 zealots and 1-2 dts
I am diamond level btw, thanks !
You do need to have static defense, leave some roach/ling behind and maybe a couple hydra so you can snipe the warp prism. You do need to leave some units + static D or warp prism harass will destroy you.
Thank you for posting an excellent guide in your team's forums. I am obviously very fortunate as a Platinum Zerg to have some Grandmaster post a guide to help me not go in blind. I am very appreciative and will use this guide to help my advancement.
On April 05 2013 14:05 FakeDeath wrote: So how will the ZvZ metagame develop? Or will it get stagnant in muta vs muta?
Right now muta vs muta is the best way to play zvz. I am currently in the works of messing with a semi different zvz but I am not sure how viable it is right now as I have had very few sample size with it (2-2 with it so far).
After watching your stream/videos I've started trying swarm host/hydra/ultra/viper ZvP in Masters League, and it's starting to go ok. However, I feel like I always take 5 bases, get a bunch of spores and then just sit there, letting the opponent do whatever they want. I feel like I will just suicide my army if I try to be aggressive with it without spores. I just played a game on Daybreak where I won, but I feel like I had a lead and then let him get back in to the game and getting up that collossus/void ray/templar mix for free. Should I try to camp at the open area at my opponents 4th earlier and get a bunch of spores up there instead of taking my 5 bases fast and be defensive?
If anyone want to give me some feedback on the replay I would be grateful!
On April 06 2013 06:04 BuiBui wrote: Sup blade ^_^
Question: when you throw down your hatch in zvt. (3rd) at 36.do you go:
36h ovie. mass drones to 44 5th queen (and double gas) to allow the 5th to build then ovie?
No I do 34 Overlord, 36 hatch.
Double gas 6 minutes.
On April 06 2013 06:11 Zheryn wrote: After watching your stream/videos I've started trying swarm host/hydra/ultra/viper ZvP in Masters League, and it's starting to go ok. However, I feel like I always take 5 bases, get a bunch of spores and then just sit there, letting the opponent do whatever they want. I feel like I will just suicide my army if I try to be aggressive with it without spores. I just played a game on Daybreak where I won, but I feel like I had a lead and then let him get back in to the game and getting up that collossus/void ray/templar mix for free. Should I try to camp at the open area at my opponents 4th earlier and get a bunch of spores up there instead of taking my 5 bases fast and be defensive?
If anyone want to give me some feedback on the replay I would be grateful!
You should be being aggressive with hydra/sh and hydra/sh/viper. There is no reason to turtle you should be putting on pressure with sh all the time or if you are being defensive that is being because he is going to attack, if he's not attacking you should be with sh.
I have been practicing your zvp with swarm host pressure, i have some hydralisks with my swarmhosts for protection and obs sniping, the problem i have is warp prism warp ins into my main, how do you go about defending such attacks, do you overbuild static defenses or do you just leave some army in base? I am talking about 8-10 zealots and 1-2 dts
I am diamond level btw, thanks !
You do need to have static defense, leave some roach/ling behind and maybe a couple hydra so you can snipe the warp prism. You do need to leave some units + static D or warp prism harass will destroy you.
do you have any proffered timing where you start to build static defense in bases, like max supply or hive or whatever? Btw thank you so much for your quick responses, your guide has helped a clueless zerg in ZvP and i am actually starting to win !
I have been practicing your zvp with swarm host pressure, i have some hydralisks with my swarmhosts for protection and obs sniping, the problem i have is warp prism warp ins into my main, how do you go about defending such attacks, do you overbuild static defenses or do you just leave some army in base? I am talking about 8-10 zealots and 1-2 dts
I am diamond level btw, thanks !
You do need to have static defense, leave some roach/ling behind and maybe a couple hydra so you can snipe the warp prism. You do need to leave some units + static D or warp prism harass will destroy you.
do you have any proffered timing where you start to build static defense in bases, like max supply or hive or whatever? Btw thank you so much for your quick responses, your guilde has helped a clueless zerg in ZvP and i am actually starting to win !
Once I start getting a mineral bank I start making static defense :D
I'm a bit confused on mutas in zvp. If the toss opens 2stargate, I cant go muta, right? So at what time do you have to scout for stargates, and what/how do you transition out of mutas?
I've been thinking about the current zvz and I have a suggestion. I'm trying it now myself but would love to hear what you think anyway. The idea is to counter muta with defensive muta into early muta-infestor. Basically you go muta just as usuall but the second your third is up you throw down double spores in every base and drop the Infestion pit then make just 2/3 infestors. The idea behind this is that Infestor transition is usally so hard becuase the more mutas there are the stronger they become so a infestor transtion should be easier earlier rather then later. You don't need more then a couple infestors to dramaticly shit the balance of the game and finish with just ling muta. So basically you'll be about 4-5 mutas behind your opponent. You make up for this by being VERY defensive with your mutas, fighting only over spores ( hence the infestor transition only after the spores are up in your third ). The aim is to do a double fungal on his mutas ( Ideally near a spore ) then clean up with your mutas, if you get a double fungal your 5 muta deficit is nothing and you shred his muta ball, you're now massively ahead in a muta vs muta game and we all know how that ends up. Note, Becuase I only make a very few infestors and have no plan to use them beyond winning one amazingly decisive muta battle and then winning with my mutas I don't research the Energy upgrade. I know that slightly delays my first fungal but I feel that I need every drop a gas. What do you think?
On April 05 2013 14:05 FakeDeath wrote: So how will the ZvZ metagame develop? Or will it get stagnant in muta vs muta?
I find that mutas can be beaten with a roach timing push right as his spire goes up. Your push will do enough econ damage (and maybe kill his expo/drones) and you can follow with hydralisks.
On April 05 2013 14:05 FakeDeath wrote: So how will the ZvZ metagame develop? Or will it get stagnant in muta vs muta?
I find that mutas can be beaten with a roach timing push right as his spire goes up. Your push will do enough econ damage (and maybe kill his expo/drones) and you can follow with hydralisks.
But I suck with muta vs muta.
Eh this works if the zerg opponent doesn't see it coming. A zerg who scouts it should be able to defend this easily and then they win from there once they hold it off.
On April 06 2013 19:09 gronnelg wrote: I'm a bit confused on mutas in zvp. If the toss opens 2stargate, I cant go muta, right? So at what time do you have to scout for stargates, and what/how do you transition out of mutas?
If I scout a 2 stargate (I use an overseer) I would not go mutalisks as that's pretty suicidal imo. Scout for it as soon as lair finishes and if I go muta I transition into sh/hydra while teching hive.
I find that when I go for the 6:30 3rd expo, I get met with hellion banshee pressure. Hellions are no big deal, just roach them. But the banshees are out before I have any spire/hydra, and they're prettty good at picking off a queen if they get there before my Lair is up.
So I lose my 3rd alot, or at the least it just sits there and I can't drone on it.
Fast forward to late game, I feel like I can't ever pressure the T. Thors aren't even really a problem, I've been getting killed by mass hellbat/tank/raven/mine. I go for the SH+ roach hydra , and try and fend off his pushes,, but he just mass seeker missles my SH , or hydra, plus like 6 mines in front so I can't get close enough to snipe the ravens.
Eventually I die to a composition of Tank/Mine/Hellbat/Raven/BC
On April 08 2013 10:50 JohnJohnson wrote: My biggest problem is fighting mech right now.
I find that when I go for the 6:30 3rd expo, I get met with hellion banshee pressure. Hellions are no big deal, just roach them. But the banshees are out before I have any spire/hydra, and they're prettty good at picking off a queen if they get there before my Lair is up.
So I lose my 3rd alot, or at the least it just sits there and I can't drone on it.
Fast forward to late game, I feel like I can't ever pressure the T. Thors aren't even really a problem, I've been getting killed by mass hellbat/tank/raven/mine. I go for the SH+ roach hydra , and try and fend off his pushes,, but he just mass seeker missles my SH , or hydra, plus like 6 mines in front so I can't get close enough to snipe the ravens.
Eventually I die to a composition of Tank/Mine/Hellbat/Raven/BC
K a few things. Make a spore in all bases once you see banshee (or you can do this blind if you face it that much) remember you dont' need an evo for this. Once banshee is attacking your third and you have a spore crawler send your other queens there until the spore finishes.
Late game swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper is very strong versus mech. On every map except for newkirk and akilon you can deny the 4'th of the terran for a long time and win from there if you go fast swarmhost with hydra support (roach/hydra if he tries a fast push).
Make sure to start hive 12 minutes 13 at latest so you can get vipers pretty fast ^_^.
Hi Blade. Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote: Hi Blade. Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
Can you post your roach timing BO?
What's best timing for scout in ZvZ? Does it depend if you hatch first or pool then hatch?
I feel so weak atm, worst matchup win ratio for me atm, and i had like 66% WR in WoL. Just losing to nonsense mass lings, and cheesy all ins and almost 7/10 matches on ladder are ZvZ for me (EU diamond).
On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote: Hi Blade. Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
You have to remember if you are hitting pre-muta timing you are sacrificing tech and economy to do this. This is why you have to do damage. If you dont' do damage or kill him you are going to be behind in every way. He will have the tech (lair), he will have complete map control of which you can do nothing about and by the time you are finally lair and teching yourself he can kill you whenever he chooses.
Killing his third isn't a big deal when you are doing a pre-muta timing. Even if you don't commit to the attack you sacrificed economy and tech and then if you didn't even attack and only denied the third your still in bad shape.
Stopped by to say thank you for the overview. I haven't played ladder in 2-3 years AND I switched from terran to zerg. I felt pretty clueless, but your guide gave me a great framework to go with. I am currently on a winning streak, you really did a great job telling the reader how to react to certain builds, I'm really starting to understand the zerg philosophy. I love gaining little economic and tech advantages here and there, all the little things add up to grant you victory. Your replays were also very helpful, thanks for your prompt responses!
I feel redundant, but a big thank you again blade !
In 50 ladder games I did Mid-Gold > Top Diamond because even if I still do a lot of mistakes I know where I go in each matchup.
I wondered, against lot of mines and terran mech in ZvT, is a minsesweeper squad useful ? Like 4 Hydra + Overseer on a control group ? I tried it and it feel nice... just asking confirmation . Of course I puted static defense but I can't put it everywhere.
On April 10 2013 17:25 RandomQueen wrote: I feel redundant, but a big thank you again blade !
In 50 ladder games I did Mid-Gold > Top Diamond because even if I still do a lot of mistakes I know where I go in each matchup.
I wondered, against lot of mines and terran mech in ZvT, is a minsesweeper squad useful ? Like 4 Hydra + Overseer on a control group ? I tried it and it feel nice... just asking confirmation . Of course I puted static defense but I can't put it everywhere.
Swarmhosts are a lot better vs mech especially vs mines. Having hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper is imo strongest composition vs mech and also pretty mobile to.
Yeah I had exactly this composition, I failed because of the mid-game where I wasn't ready and he damaged me severely. I still had my chances with this composition even with my strong fail at the mid-game.
I was more talking about denying a mine or two on a future expansion etc without bringing "slow" SH
On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote: Hi Blade. Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
Can you post your roach timing BO?
What's best timing for scout in ZvZ? Does it depend if you hatch first or pool then hatch?
I feel so weak atm, worst matchup win ratio for me atm, and i had like 66% WR in WoL. Just losing to nonsense mass lings, and cheesy all ins and almost 7/10 matches on ladder are ZvZ for me (EU diamond).
Thanks
I play a heavily modified version of Zelniq's ancient anti-muta build from 2010 atm. 15 hatch with queen block and a spine to shutdown tier 1 pressure, 28 food grab double gas and evo, +1 and drone to 36 then roach to 68 food, push around 8:15, +1 comes up halfway across the map. Behind this, go lair, heavy queen production, take 3rd (must have creeped to it), queens will keep 3rd safe without over-commitment into static, and queen production saves larvae so can rapidly catch up in drones.
Ideally you creep highway to his 3rd and hit it again very shortly later with a few hydras mixed into the roach queen (or just kill him if he's already crippled). From there just open out into standard roach/hydra/infestor play. Scouting is accomplished by lords, a singleton set of initial lings, and the roach push itself - you don't need much information: You are safe from all-ins as long as you monitor what's happening at his natural, and the roaches pin mutas to his base long enough to get 5-6 queens and a spore at each base.
On April 10 2013 02:57 blade55555 wrote: You have to remember if you are hitting pre-muta timing you are sacrificing tech and economy to do this. This is why you have to do damage. If you dont' do damage or kill him you are going to be behind in every way. He will have the tech (lair), he will have complete map control of which you can do nothing about and by the time you are finally lair and teching yourself he can kill you whenever he chooses.
Killing his third isn't a big deal when you are doing a pre-muta timing. Even if you don't commit to the attack you sacrificed economy and tech and then if you didn't even attack and only denied the third your still in bad shape.
See, that's what people tell me! I still don't understand the theory. I am very interested why this sort of play isn't viable at GM level. I can't test it because my ZvT is drastically holding me back, but I'm usually over 65% ZvZ.
I see that I'm a little behind if I do nothing but force 6 spines and delay 3rd, but why can he kill me? Between a pack of queens and a bit of static, +1 roaches on the field, he can't kill any of my 3 bases, so I can safely drone to 55 after my push goes out. What does map control actually matter when your 3rd is safe and online? Will he double expand and just get 8 gas muta for a kill? What am I missing?
How far behind is a Zerg actually if they 15 pool instead of 15 hatch? I generally open 15 pool so that I don't die to early pools which are common where I'm at, does the player who opens 15 pool have to do any form of economic damage or what steps should they take to not be behind the Zerg who 15 hatches?
See, that's what people tell me! I still don't understand the theory. I am very interested why this sort of play isn't viable at GM level. I can't test it because my ZvT is drastically holding me back, but I'm usually over 65% ZvZ.
I see that I'm a little behind if I do nothing but force 6 spines and delay 3rd, but why can he kill me? Between a pack of queens and a bit of static, +1 roaches on the field, he can't kill any of my 3 bases, so I can safely drone to 55 after my push goes out. What does map control actually matter when your 3rd is safe and online? Will he double expand and just get 8 gas muta for a kill? What am I missing?
He has a severe tech advantage. He has complete map dominance and can be as greedy as he could possibly wish to be. Your lair starts when his is already done. Losing a third isn't that big of a deal vs this, You are still a long way from infestor/hydra tech so you will need to spore/queen HEAVILY to defend your 3 bases. This costs a lot of minerals which can't be used to catch up in tech or to make offensive units.
He can choose whatever the hell he wants; most likely ling/ultra (double upgrades) vs a roach/hydra player. roach/hydra melts when ultras hit the field, and you'll need to hit before that - which you most likely can't after having put so much resources into defending.
On April 10 2013 23:44 SneakyWeasel wrote: How far behind is a Zerg actually if they 15 pool instead of 15 hatch? I generally open 15 pool so that I don't die to early pools which are common where I'm at, does the player who opens 15 pool have to do any form of economic damage or what steps should they take to not be behind the Zerg who 15 hatches?
Not much. I 15 pool every single game. You're just going to have to play knowing a 15hatch will be a slightly ahead, but it won't win or lose you the game. Watch out for mass speedlings - 15H into mass ling is quite a common all in. Thus, be sure to scout how many drones he has/run a few lings in his base to see his ling count. [/QUOTE]
On April 11 2013 03:53 Decendos wrote: how to play vs gateway openings? when take your 3rd, when take gases, when take 3 roach warren, when lair, when sacc ovi?
completely lost vs gate first openings
Take a third when you see him taking his natural, make sure you get ling speed asap as well. Hatch first if possible.
Should take a gas as soon as you see non forge FE. Roach warren I make at about 7 minutes. If I see he is doing a 1 base 4 gate I make spines + speedlings to hold it off.
Lair is about 7 minutes.
If you are going to sac an ovie do it between 5:30-5:45
Expect some sort of pressure if a toss player goes gate expand but doesn't do any sort of pressure at all he's already behind economically unless you made a ton of defense for no reason.
On April 11 2013 03:53 Decendos wrote: how to play vs gateway openings? when take your 3rd, when take gases, when take 3 roach warren, when lair, when sacc ovi?
completely lost vs gate first openings
Take a third when you see him taking his natural, make sure you get ling speed asap as well. Hatch first if possible.
Should take a gas as soon as you see non forge FE. Roach warren I make at about 7 minutes. If I see he is doing a 1 base 4 gate I make spines + speedlings to hold it off.
Lair is about 7 minutes.
If you are going to sac an ovie do it between 5:30-5:45
Expect some sort of pressure if a toss player goes gate expand but doesn't do any sort of pressure at all he's already behind economically unless you made a ton of defense for no reason.
thanks. how do you follow that up? can you play like you would vs FFE once lair is done or do you need roachspeed to be safe vs gatewaypressure etc.? how do you deal best with 2 base colossus....will mutas be in time?
On April 11 2013 03:53 Decendos wrote: how to play vs gateway openings? when take your 3rd, when take gases, when take 3 roach warren, when lair, when sacc ovi?
completely lost vs gate first openings
Take a third when you see him taking his natural, make sure you get ling speed asap as well. Hatch first if possible.
Should take a gas as soon as you see non forge FE. Roach warren I make at about 7 minutes. If I see he is doing a 1 base 4 gate I make spines + speedlings to hold it off.
Lair is about 7 minutes.
If you are going to sac an ovie do it between 5:30-5:45
Expect some sort of pressure if a toss player goes gate expand but doesn't do any sort of pressure at all he's already behind economically unless you made a ton of defense for no reason.
thanks. how do you follow that up? can you play like you would vs FFE once lair is done or do you need roachspeed to be safe vs gatewaypressure etc.? how do you deal best with 2 base colossus....will mutas be in time?
I go swarmhost like I normally do. Roach/hydra/swarmhost absolutely demolishes a 2 base colossi all in. Don't know about mutas because most tosses I play go stargate but I imagine they would be out in time vs 2 base colossi all in.
On April 11 2013 03:53 Decendos wrote: how to play vs gateway openings? when take your 3rd, when take gases, when take 3 roach warren, when lair, when sacc ovi?
completely lost vs gate first openings
Take a third when you see him taking his natural, make sure you get ling speed asap as well. Hatch first if possible.
Should take a gas as soon as you see non forge FE. Roach warren I make at about 7 minutes. If I see he is doing a 1 base 4 gate I make spines + speedlings to hold it off.
Lair is about 7 minutes.
If you are going to sac an ovie do it between 5:30-5:45
Expect some sort of pressure if a toss player goes gate expand but doesn't do any sort of pressure at all he's already behind economically unless you made a ton of defense for no reason.
thanks. how do you follow that up? can you play like you would vs FFE once lair is done or do you need roachspeed to be safe vs gatewaypressure etc.? how do you deal best with 2 base colossus....will mutas be in time?
I go swarmhost like I normally do. Roach/hydra/swarmhost absolutely demolishes a 2 base colossi all in. Don't know about mutas because most tosses I play go stargate but I imagine they would be out in time vs 2 base colossi all in.
thanks! really hope this improves my shitty vs gate first zvp ^^
Masters Z from WoL who just picked up HotS. Simple question: what maps should I veto? I know a "real" competitive player would play all maps but I am a casual hack who just wants to play games most favorable to Z style.
Thanks and fantastic guide.
Nah even a real competitive player vetos shit maps . I veto newkirk and korhal compound. I like the rest of the maps.
Hello Blade, can you tell me why you veto theses maps ? I have hard time in ZvT vs Mech on newkirk, but maybe it is me who don't pressure well...
Masters Z from WoL who just picked up HotS. Simple question: what maps should I veto? I know a "real" competitive player would play all maps but I am a casual hack who just wants to play games most favorable to Z style.
Thanks and fantastic guide.
Nah even a real competitive player vetos shit maps . I veto newkirk and korhal compound. I like the rest of the maps.
Hello Blade, can you tell me why you veto theses maps ? I have hard time in ZvT vs Mech on newkirk, but maybe it is me who don't pressure well...
Their really shitty maps is why. Newkirk tends to just get into split map which is boring and korhal is just bad in everyway from expansion inside base, to easily secured 3rd/4'th and just a bad map.
One thing I've been experimenting with in ZvT is during the midgame when maxed on Muta/Ling/Bane and I'm floating minerals is to add a bunch of Overlords into my composition. Flanking/engaging while leading with them sometimes sets off widow mines and if some survive are pooping creep. I don't bring Overlords that are spotting for drops, I simply add some more on if I'm maxed/floating while transitioning and still have enough minerals to revamp my army after a fight. What do you think?
On April 17 2013 05:05 1Lamb1Rice wrote: One thing I've been experimenting with in ZvT is during the midgame when maxed on Muta/Ling/Bane and I'm floating minerals is to add a bunch of Overlords into my composition. Flanking/engaging while leading with them sometimes sets off widow mines and if some survive are pooping creep. I don't bring Overlords that are spotting for drops, I simply add some more on if I'm maxed/floating while transitioning and still have enough minerals to revamp my army after a fight. What do you think?
Hm tbh I NEVER max on muta/ling/bane so I don't ever have this problem where I then start floating lots of money. If I do get extra money I use it on spines + spores at bases to defend from drops (if muta are out of position, late game, etc).
Not a fan of using overlords to make widow mines fire but I am sure it's fine just not something I will ever do.
I'm training on your style and it work in a lot of situations (ZvZ, ZvP and ZvT Mech are OK if I dont fuk it up), but I have a really bad time against massive / multi drops versus Terran, even playing defensively.
I go for Roach Ling Bling SH to Ultra Ling Bling Infest (+BL) style but usualy if the Terran is good he kill me before the late game by dropping like 4-6 medivacs in a way i can't do a lot of damage. I see the medivacs coming but sometime he go straight drop, sometime he just mediboost his way to another base, soooo far away with cliffs etc.
Do you play ling bling mutas midgame atm or do you still play this style ? I feel powerless
On April 24 2013 03:10 RandomQueen wrote: Hello blade !
I'm training on your style and it work in a lot of situations (ZvZ, ZvP and ZvT Mech are OK if I dont fuk it up), but I have a really bad time against massive / multi drops versus Terran, even playing defensively.
I go for Roach Ling Bling SH to Ultra Ling Bling Infest (+BL) style but usualy if the Terran is good he kill me before the late game by dropping like 4-6 medivacs in a way i can't do a lot of damage. I see the medivacs coming but sometime he go straight drop, sometime he just mediboost his way to another base, soooo far away with cliffs etc.
Do you play ling bling mutas midgame atm or do you still play this style ? I feel powerless
I play muta/ling/bane because drops really are hard to deal with without it.
The roach/ling/bane/swarmhost style I think could be fine but you have to have really good multi tasking and stuff so that you can deal with drops. Leaving a group of ling/bane behind with a couple spines and a spore or 2 is a good idea when doing this style so that you can deal with drops easier.
I may have missed this, but could you comment on gas timings and droning up for the 3rd? I just got masters this week, and do well in zvt, but I feel my guesswork when it comes to droning up and taking gas at the third is keeping this matchup from being truly strong for me:
Holy shit thank you for that Akilon Wastes video. I was having trouble with ZvP especially on that map, cos it felt like Protoss could take 4 bases so easily on it.
On April 24 2013 19:37 Omnidroid wrote: Holy shit thank you for that Akilon Wastes video. I was having trouble with ZvP especially on that map, cos it felt like Protoss could take 4 bases so easily on it.
That is one of the problems with akilon is it's so easy to take a 4'th base it's why I am not a fan of that map especially in zvt
On April 24 2013 04:48 abefroman wrote: I may have missed this, but could you comment on gas timings and droning up for the 3rd? I just got masters this week, and do well in zvt, but I feel my guesswork when it comes to droning up and taking gas at the third is keeping this matchup from being truly strong for me:
Eeek sorry for missing this. I get double gas 6 minutes and start 1/1 as soon as I can after that then go lair. It really is different though as vs a reaper opening I get speed as fast as possible and then pull guys off and then take my 2nd gas and resume mining gas at 6:45 and get 1/1 then lair.
On April 25 2013 22:02 abefroman wrote: You didn't miss THAT. What i mean is, when should i be taking gases 5 and 6, and getting, say ~drones 50-70?
Ah will I get my 5'th and 6'th gases when my third has 14 drones mining from it. You should be droning unless when you sac an overlord you see a bunch of rax, but most terrans go 3CC so if you can see 3CC then you can drone safely until 9 minutes 9:30 about and by then you should be saturated on 3 bases unless he does some sort of weird aggression.
first of all, your guide is amazing, it helped me out a lot, as i was struggling with the Transition from wings to hots. So, thanks a lot!
Now that i lost a couple of games against a helion/banshee opening, i was wondering why you dont mention any strategies against banshee openings in your guide. I guess if you loose against banshees, the problem is lack of scouting, as it was in my case. I got surprised by the banshees and lost to many drones.
first of all, your guide is amazing, it helped me out a lot, as i was struggling with the Transition from wings to hots. So, thanks a lot!
Now that i lost a couple of games against a helion/banshee opening, i was wondering why you dont mention any strategies against banshee openings in your guide. I guess if you loose against banshees, the problem is lack of scouting, as it was in my case. I got surprised by the banshees and lost to many drones.
Thanks again, great work!
I didn't write about banshee/hellion because it was a WoL build but you can blindly put spore crawlers if you see this a lot.
hey blade, i've been having trouble with terrans who go reapers into hellions and start being really fucking annoying with them (about 2 reapers and 6-8 hellions). I feel like speedlings are just not enough and my third feels too exposed to start mining, should the roach warren come faster than 7:15 when going against this?
I looked through your korean replay pack for zvts and I think i saw one where you die to the same thing.
On May 01 2013 12:56 Omnidroid wrote: hey blade, i've been having trouble with terrans who go reapers into hellions and start being really fucking annoying with them (about 2 reapers and 6-8 hellions). I feel like speedlings are just not enough and my third feels too exposed to start mining, should the roach warren come faster than 7:15 when going against this?
I looked through your korean replay pack for zvts and I think i saw one where you die to the same thing.
There are a few replays of me dying to it but that's more of really bad play then anything. I normally get a roach warren a bit earlier now of days as I would rather have 4 roaches then making 20+ lings. I am still experimenting on the best way to play verse those openings and what not.
Blade, do you often work overlord speed into these builds? If so, when do you prefer to get it? I really like overlord speed because it makes scouting a lot easier which makes reacting to and preparing for what your opponent is doing that much easier.
On May 05 2013 06:07 alcaras wrote: Any maps you have thumbs-downed this season, blade?
the one with the small bridge is all I have veto'd.
On May 05 2013 06:23 Falcon-sw wrote: Hey, Blizz, thanks for making every zvz muta on muta. Super fun.
Trust me when I tell you this, zvz muta wars is a hell of a lot more fun then mass spine roach/hydra/swarmhost and then broodlords ^^.
On May 05 2013 06:30 TheBarcid wrote: This guide helped me so much at the start of hots, thank you!
I have a question for you though: what are your thoughts on the new upgrade heavy ling/ultra builds in zvp?
Not a fan, I feel it has a ton of vulnerabilities and the only reason tosses are losing to it is they don't know the weaknesses yet. I will honestly be surprised if this remains viable in a couple months. It is very map dependent as well.
On May 05 2013 06:31 Xanbatou wrote: Blade, do you often work overlord speed into these builds? If so, when do you prefer to get it? I really like overlord speed because it makes scouting a lot easier which makes reacting to and preparing for what your opponent is doing that much easier.
I get overlord speed on my way to lair zvt, zvp I get it randomly no set time (honestly should be getting it on my way to lair as well).
I don't like any earlier as it delays upgrades or something else because 100/100 early is quiet an investment.
On May 07 2013 14:53 gronnelg wrote: So your SH are not supposed to stay in the same position for too long. How and when do you move them around?
I would move them or at least uproot them after every wave unless you know he's not going to push after he kills the locus wave.
I even move them if they're not pushing, just to keep them as hidden as I can, unless they have detection unit(s) on follow, which most players don't bother with. The tricky part is uprooting if they're flanking. T_T Lost many swarm hosts to that. They're just trying to make a living too amirite?
On May 07 2013 14:53 gronnelg wrote: So your SH are not supposed to stay in the same position for too long. How and when do you move them around?
I would move them or at least uproot them after every wave unless you know he's not going to push after he kills the locus wave.
Ok, so uprooting pretty much every time. Got it. And what about moving? Were do you move to? Simply pull back? And then move forward again for the next wave?
Hey blade I have been having great success in masters with the zvp and i have been doing a speedling 1/1 zvz. The problem i am having is zvt. When i play the ling bling muta, I seem to hold untill around when hive pops or my sh just pop. I find the bio mine will crush any army I have slowly and I cant get the sh out in time. By the time either my sh pops or if i go straight ultra, usually i have lost a base or 2 and my army is strong, but I have already lost. I have been watching suppy play and he has been doing a nice ling muta bling with 2-4 festors while rushing ultras. Do you think that play is better than the sh play? I find that bio wm so frustrating to play against. I find that rushing ultras has let me hold on longer than sh And thanks again for the guide. It has been really helpful! seriously made me love sh haha my new favorite unit.
On May 07 2013 14:53 gronnelg wrote: So your SH are not supposed to stay in the same position for too long. How and when do you move them around?
I would move them or at least uproot them after every wave unless you know he's not going to push after he kills the locus wave.
Ok, so uprooting pretty much every time. Got it. And what about moving? Were do you move to? Simply pull back? And then move forward again for the next wave?
You can do a couple things, move them, burrow them again, retreat if you think he's going to push out.
On May 08 2013 01:57 Kit-Bar wrote: Hey blade I have been having great success in masters with the zvp and i have been doing a speedling 1/1 zvz. The problem i am having is zvt. When i play the ling bling muta, I seem to hold untill around when hive pops or my sh just pop. I find the bio mine will crush any army I have slowly and I cant get the sh out in time. By the time either my sh pops or if i go straight ultra, usually i have lost a base or 2 and my army is strong, but I have already lost. I have been watching suppy play and he has been doing a nice ling muta bling with 2-4 festors while rushing ultras. Do you think that play is better than the sh play? I find that bio wm so frustrating to play against. I find that rushing ultras has let me hold on longer than sh And thanks again for the guide. It has been really helpful! seriously made me love sh haha my new favorite unit.
Hey do whatever works for you best. If rushing ultra and adding a few infestors works better then keep doing that. For me I find more success adding in swarmhosts then infestors while getting ultralisks. I have found though that you want to make the swarmhosts when you know he isn't about to attack.
Some key parts to start making swarmhosts are when you hold an attack, or you are going to do an attack to force him back and getting swarmhosts. One of the problems I had when adding swarmhosts was the terran would push as soon as I was making them. This was obviously a problem because I would have a bunch of supply that wasn't ling/bane that were popping out that aren't fast like ling/bane so I would take a lot of damage sometimes.
Is the 7:15 roach warren outlined in the ZvT build timed in a way that lets you deal with hellion/reaper pressure or hellbat drops? If not, when should I get the roach warren to deal with these plays?
On May 08 2013 03:34 TFS wrote: Is the 7:15 roach warren outlined in the ZvT build timed in a way that lets you deal with hellion/reaper pressure or hellbat drops? If not, when should I get the roach warren to deal with these plays?
Yes it is, I get a roach warren to deal with the hellion/reaper as I don't like making a million lings to deal with it, cuts into drones and feels very larva inefficient to me. Also for hellbat drops as well.
I haven't had nearly as much time to play since HotS release compared to beta, and my play is suffering from being a bit rusty. But on top of this, I'm not so faithful in my strat lately, so I feel like my strats getting a bit behind the times.
Basically since both my gameplay and strat are suffering, I really need a viable strat to get practice in on to improve my play, since I don't have the time to experiment with strats to find out what works best.
Ling/Bling/Muta in to SH then Corr/BL was my primary strat in the end of beta, but now it seems it's been somewhat figured out and only works vs certain compositions, since it's so gas heavy. So I tried going according to this guide for ling/bling/roach in to SH compositions, but it also feels very hit or miss depending on compositions.
I'm not sure if it's my play lacking, or if SH may be best as a tech switch depending on enemy compositions rather than a primary strat? Is SH midgame as viable as Mutas as a primary strat and I just need practice? Or should I go for a Muta midgame and then switch to SH only if I see Widows or Mech?
On May 09 2013 06:11 Spyridon wrote: Few questions.
I haven't had nearly as much time to play since HotS release compared to beta, and my play is suffering from being a bit rusty. But on top of this, I'm not so faithful in my strat lately, so I feel like my strats getting a bit behind the times.
Basically since both my gameplay and strat are suffering, I really need a viable strat to get practice in on to improve my play, since I don't have the time to experiment with strats to find out what works best.
Ling/Bling/Muta in to SH then Corr/BL was my primary strat in the end of beta, but now it seems it's been somewhat figured out and only works vs certain compositions, since it's so gas heavy. So I tried going according to this guide for ling/bling/roach in to SH compositions, but it also feels very hit or miss depending on compositions.
I'm not sure if it's my play lacking, or if SH may be best as a tech switch depending on enemy compositions rather than a primary strat? Is SH midgame as viable as Mutas as a primary strat and I just need practice? Or should I go for a Muta midgame and then switch to SH only if I see Widows or Mech?
Switching to swarmhost from ling/bane/muta I find good as long as you can transition before an attack. If you transition to it while he's attacking then it really kinda sucks because that's quiet a bit of supply that won't help during the attack.
ling/bane/roach/swarmhost does have it's weaknesses, drop play is hard to deal with sometimes which is something you well want to watch out for.
In zvt I do muta/ling/bane into swarmhost still and vs mech always go swarmhosts it's just such a hard counter to mech :D
I have some questions about the zvp play with swarmhosts. I'm not 100% sure how to play it in the meta game. I will start my lair, after that infestation pit & hydra den. When this transition is starting, must i make extra units so i'll be sure to defend any aggression?
Then If ur oppenent goes stargate, you go hydra's before swarmhosts, I get that, but how do i follow this up. Should I go straight to my hive for vipers or add corruptors first?
Also when you transition to hive, you don't go maxed out or do you say i'll add ultra's after the 1st engagement.
I have some questions about the zvp play with swarmhosts. I'm not 100% sure how to play it in the meta game. I will start my lair, after that infestation pit & hydra den. When this transition is starting, must i make extra units so i'll be sure to defend any aggression?
Then If ur oppenent goes stargate, you go hydra's before swarmhosts, I get that, but how do i follow this up. Should I go straight to my hive for vipers or add corruptors first?
Also when you transition to hive, you don't go maxed out or do you say i'll add ultra's after the 1st engagement.
You should make roach/ling if he looks like he's going to do any sort of gateway pressure otherwise you don't make any units. Also go hive straight for vipers and don't make corruptors at all imo.
Is 1 gate expand becoming a new meta in ZvP? And if so, are you planning on adding a section about it to the OP, blade? ^^
I've returned to EU after playing exclusively on AM for a couple of weeks yesterday and I got rolled by different variations of 1 gate expand 4 times in a row. I think 2 immortal warp prism zealots MSC +1 push was the worst of it, cos it outright killed me right there. Other variations delayed my tech/eco so I could only barely get 10 SHs out in time when their huge 3 base colossus amove came, and that obviously didnt work out well. Maybe a gas timing or other signs like units/buildings he has and what to expect from there would be nice, because I am absolutely clueless atm :/
On May 15 2013 13:49 Atthasit wrote: Is 1 gate expand becoming a new meta in ZvP? And if so, are you planning on adding a section about it to the OP, blade? ^^
I've returned to EU after playing exclusively on AM for a couple of weeks yesterday and I got rolled by different variations of 1 gate expand 4 times in a row. I think 2 immortal warp prism zealots MSC +1 push was the worst of it, cos it outright killed me right there. Other variations delayed my tech/eco so I could only barely get 10 SHs out in time when their huge 3 base colossus amove came, and that obviously didnt work out well. Maybe a gas timing or other signs like units/buildings he has and what to expect from there would be nice, because I am absolutely clueless atm :/
Hm I probably could add that section in eventually but I won't give a date haha. Yeah right now gate expand is really popular but honestly I don't expect it to last long. It'll be just like in WoL, tosses do it for awhile then remember why it's not as good as forge expand.
I'll write a part on it and bump this when I get it done!
1) Since the new Spore changes, what is seeming like the new meta for ZvZ? Or is it still too unstable? I seen Idra going Muta still, Catz seemed to be going heavy lings in to infestors, then switching to roach/hydra.
2) I tend to re-read the Terran section quite a bit since there's so many possible combinations to face, and I don't know if it's just me, but it seems a bit disorganized when reading since you give so many options. For example Muta midgame, SH midgame, Muta + SH midgame, and then the mech section for a switch to Roach/Hydra/SH/Viper... Even after reading many times I don't know the exact situations I should concentrate on the primary strat or if I should do a tech switch.
My main question regarding this... I've been focusing on Ling/Bling/Muta again rather than SH lately. You say not to use Ling/Bling/Muta when facing Mech, and the tech switch for fighting Mech (SH/Roach/Hydra then adding Viper/Ultra)... Question considering this... What exactly constitutes "Mech"? Obviously if they push with something like hellion hellbat tank thor that's Mech.... but for example lately my training partner has been doing bio/widow openers and then mid game added in maybe 5-6 tanks and sometimes a thor or 2, and even when flanking optimally and attempting to catch Tanks out of potion it's actually been fairly hard to handle if he micros properly if we're having a close game - it's been reliant on me being quite a bit ahead (and even then he can pull it off sometimes). So much firepower mows down the ling/blings even on creep, and they can't get a good surround if his units are positioned nicely, and once the ground armys gone the Mutas can't handle it alone.
Should Terran just adding a few tanks be considered mech and should I start focusing on SH/Roaches/Hydra/Vipers immediately? Basically I need to know a little more clearly, what exactly I should be looking for before doing the tech switch to other units and when to continue just pumping out ling/bling/muta.
Regarding the original guide, as some advice regarding my misunderstanding, in the ZvT matchup it may be a bit better organized if you reorganize a section for each strategy and list when to tech switch each unit when using that strategy (ie: for the Ling/Bling/Muta strat, when to add SH, Vipers, when to switch to Roach/Hydra, etc.... followed by Roach/Ling/Bane/SH strat and when to add Infestors, Viper... etc). Hope that makes sense lol, it would make it easier for me to read at least =)
Hi Blade, I wanted to ask about infestors in ZvT - do you think they would still be a viable option pre-hive, or are mutalisks the only way to go? I have a lot of problems against bio/hellbat pushes (I'm Platinum btw), since mutas just don't do as much against them, and I can't seem to have enough ling/bane/roach in time to stop them. I feel like a couple of fungals would really help, even against bio/mine pushes. What are your thoughts?
On May 17 2013 11:45 Spyridon wrote: Couple more questions...
1) Since the new Spore changes, what is seeming like the new meta for ZvZ? Or is it still too unstable? I seen Idra going Muta still, Catz seemed to be going heavy lings in to infestors, then switching to roach/hydra.
2) I tend to re-read the Terran section quite a bit since there's so many possible combinations to face, and I don't know if it's just me, but it seems a bit disorganized when reading since you give so many options. For example Muta midgame, SH midgame, Muta + SH midgame, and then the mech section for a switch to Roach/Hydra/SH/Viper... Even after reading many times I don't know the exact situations I should concentrate on the primary strat or if I should do a tech switch.
My main question regarding this... I've been focusing on Ling/Bling/Muta again rather than SH lately. You say not to use Ling/Bling/Muta when facing Mech, and the tech switch for fighting Mech (SH/Roach/Hydra then adding Viper/Ultra)... Question considering this... What exactly constitutes "Mech"? Obviously if they push with something like hellion hellbat tank thor that's Mech.... but for example lately my training partner has been doing bio/widow openers and then mid game added in maybe 5-6 tanks and sometimes a thor or 2, and even when flanking optimally and attempting to catch Tanks out of potion it's actually been fairly hard to handle if he micros properly if we're having a close game - it's been reliant on me being quite a bit ahead (and even then he can pull it off sometimes). So much firepower mows down the ling/blings even on creep, and they can't get a good surround if his units are positioned nicely, and once the ground armys gone the Mutas can't handle it alone.
Should Terran just adding a few tanks be considered mech and should I start focusing on SH/Roaches/Hydra/Vipers immediately? Basically I need to know a little more clearly, what exactly I should be looking for before doing the tech switch to other units and when to continue just pumping out ling/bling/muta.
Regarding the original guide, as some advice regarding my misunderstanding, in the ZvT matchup it may be a bit better organized if you reorganize a section for each strategy and list when to tech switch each unit when using that strategy (ie: for the Ling/Bling/Muta strat, when to add SH, Vipers, when to switch to Roach/Hydra, etc.... followed by Roach/Ling/Bane/SH strat and when to add Infestors, Viper... etc). Hope that makes sense lol, it would make it easier for me to read at least =)
What constitutes mech is if his main unit composition is coming out of factory. If he isn't making bio and all his units coming from factories he is going mech and thus you should switch to sh. If you see a ton of factories in his base and no rax that's mech incoming.
On May 19 2013 21:42 PoulsenB wrote: Hi Blade, I wanted to ask about infestors in ZvT - do you think they would still be a viable option pre-hive, or are mutalisks the only way to go? I have a lot of problems against bio/hellbat pushes (I'm Platinum btw), since mutas just don't do as much against them, and I can't seem to have enough ling/bane/roach in time to stop them. I feel like a couple of fungals would really help, even against bio/mine pushes. What are your thoughts?
I feel infestors are a better late game option then rushing them mid game. It's viable but imo weaker then mutalisk play as drop play is so strong vs non muta openers.
I have some questions about the zvp play with swarmhosts. I'm not 100% sure how to play it in the meta game. I will start my lair, after that infestation pit & hydra den. When this transition is starting, must i make extra units so i'll be sure to defend any aggression?
Then If ur oppenent goes stargate, you go hydra's before swarmhosts, I get that, but how do i follow this up. Should I go straight to my hive for vipers or add corruptors first?
Also when you transition to hive, you don't go maxed out or do you say i'll add ultra's after the 1st engagement.
You should make roach/ling if he looks like he's going to do any sort of gateway pressure otherwise you don't make any units. Also go hive straight for vipers and don't make corruptors at all imo.
Hi Blade,
may I ask if this is standard for you now, to skip corruptors and go for vipers? (since the guide indicates to go corruptors after hydra, i wanted to ask?)
I have some questions about the zvp play with swarmhosts. I'm not 100% sure how to play it in the meta game. I will start my lair, after that infestation pit & hydra den. When this transition is starting, must i make extra units so i'll be sure to defend any aggression?
Then If ur oppenent goes stargate, you go hydra's before swarmhosts, I get that, but how do i follow this up. Should I go straight to my hive for vipers or add corruptors first?
Also when you transition to hive, you don't go maxed out or do you say i'll add ultra's after the 1st engagement.
You should make roach/ling if he looks like he's going to do any sort of gateway pressure otherwise you don't make any units. Also go hive straight for vipers and don't make corruptors at all imo.
Hi Blade,
may I ask if this is standard for you now, to skip corruptors and go for vipers? (since the guide indicates to go corruptors after hydra, i wanted to ask?)
It is situational. I have found vs no voidray play and just pure ground getting corruptors for colossi is stronger then getting fast vipers. If he is going voidray/colossi it is much better to skip corruptors and get vipers as vipers are far stronger in that situation.
What when they go straight colossi? I find more and more players not building immortals anymore. And if i play as standard by the time hive hits they have +5 and going templar stargate tech.
edit:// dont think i have seen a single immortal in the last 5 zvp's ive played. It has all been straight colossi into templar/sky
On May 21 2013 08:12 phrenzy wrote: What when they go straight colossi? I find more and more players not building immortals anymore. And if i play as standard by the time hive hits they have +5 and going templar stargate tech.
edit:// dont think i have seen a single immortal in the last 5 zvp's ive played. It has all been straight colossi into templar/sky
Straight colossi and no air support = go corruptor with swarmhost/roach into broodlords with hydra/roach/viper for blinding cloud and 12-14 swarmhosts and if they somehow kill them then add in ultras.
Vs pure colossi/templar broodlord/swarmhost/ultra/hydra/viper (or infestor or both) well smash it hard because blinding cloud makes blink stalkers not able to snipe broodlords very well.
Vs skytoss/templar hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper shits on it :D
Ahh, thank you. Makes a lot of sense. This reminds me of what i used to do in the beta. But with these adjustments and the rest of the guide incorporating vipers/hydras/ultras it is so much stronger. What would i do in this game without you and your guides.
I have notice some adjustments to your ZvT on your stream. Do you still go double upgrades before lair and then a couple of roaches for defense? I find it very hard to scout with slow overlords so i can never identify a greedy terran or one preparing t do something like a hellbat drop.
On May 21 2013 09:34 phrenzy wrote: Ahh, thank you. Makes a lot of sense. This reminds me of what i used to do in the beta. But with these adjustments and the rest of the guide incorporating vipers/hydras/ultras it is so much stronger. What would i do in this game without you and your guides.
I have notice some adjustments to your ZvT on your stream. Do you still go double upgrades before lair and then a couple of roaches for defense? I find it very hard to scout with slow overlords so i can never identify a greedy terran or one preparing t do something like a hellbat drop.
Yes I still double evo upgrade before lair. I just get roaches a little faster now as it allows me to deny the third a bit if he takes it greedily and be able to defend against hellion harassment and drone my 3rd base a lot faster then if I make 50 lings.
I'm a low master Zerg. I'm having most of my trouble with my ZvZ match up. I feel my play is very random and gimicky. Let me try to paint a picture of my issue for you.
I either open 15 pool or 15 hatch depending on the map. Thats not so much my issue. The problem is when I see the player is going into a standard opening and making drones before 30 supply. At this point, I feel obligated to flood lings to force him to make lings or kill him, almost like this is the safest route. If I play a more standard macro style and make drones with that first inject larvae pop than I find myself dying a lot to those players who make lings right at 30 supply.
Should I just make 2 defensive banes around that time to be safe? Is it a bad idea to try and make lings yourself to either force them out of your opponent? I find if I do pump lings at 30 supply, I'm at the least forcing him to do it and defending from the same sort of play.
I'm a low master Zerg. I'm having most of my trouble with my ZvZ match up. I feel my play is very random and gimicky. Let me try to paint a picture of my issue for you.
I either open 15 pool or 15 hatch depending on the map. Thats not so much my issue. The problem is when I see the player is going into a standard opening and making drones before 30 supply. At this point, I feel obligated to flood lings to force him to make lings or kill him, almost like this is the safest route. If I play a more standard macro style and make drones with that first inject larvae pop than I find myself dying a lot to those players who make lings right at 30 supply.
Should I just make 2 defensive banes around that time to be safe? Is it a bad idea to try and make lings yourself to either force them out of your opponent? I find if I do pump lings at 30 supply, I'm at the least forcing him to do it and defending from the same sort of play.
Thanks
I'm not Blade but I think I can answer your question. Everything in ZvZ is larvae-related, especially in the early game. If you decide to make a bunch of lings to force your opponent to make lings himself reactively, you will be behind if you don't deal damage. Imagine a mirror build and that you make lings at a certain point in time, and your opponent makes drones, then lings reactively due to the fact that he sees yours, he will have the eco advantage of having his drones made earlier. Plus, it's possible that he makes less lings than you and morph a few bannelings to defend. So in that case you will be even more behind.
If you feel that you die a lot to speedlings pushes, try to always have two lings at your natural that you can morph into bannelings in case of emmergency. Also, be aware of the gas timing of your opponent, compared to yours. If he's ahead in gas mining, there's a possibility that he will be aggressive. Also, send lings one by one into his bases to scout if he's making drones or lings. On certain maps, you can also put your first overlord behind his natural mineral line to see if he's droning up (and if he's not, prepare to defend a push).
The OP was edited the 2 day ago, so i assume the guide is still up to date, right ? Because i work on this guide and these BO since the beginning of Hots and i want to know if it's still good.
I'm a low master Zerg. I'm having most of my trouble with my ZvZ match up. I feel my play is very random and gimicky. Let me try to paint a picture of my issue for you.
I either open 15 pool or 15 hatch depending on the map. Thats not so much my issue. The problem is when I see the player is going into a standard opening and making drones before 30 supply. At this point, I feel obligated to flood lings to force him to make lings or kill him, almost like this is the safest route. If I play a more standard macro style and make drones with that first inject larvae pop than I find myself dying a lot to those players who make lings right at 30 supply.
Should I just make 2 defensive banes around that time to be safe? Is it a bad idea to try and make lings yourself to either force them out of your opponent? I find if I do pump lings at 30 supply, I'm at the least forcing him to do it and defending from the same sort of play.
Thanks
Should start making banelings when you see units morphing out. If you play for the macro make sure to send speedligns in to his base to keep tabs of units and all that. It's very important because it can save you games rather then playing blind and praying he doesn't do this sort of aggression.
It's not bad to make lings but if your opponent defends well he can make 2-4 banes and defend near perfectly with 6 ling support and is going to be ahead in every way if you don't do damage.
On May 25 2013 03:56 Wertheron wrote: The OP was edited the 2 day ago, so i assume the guide is still up to date, right ? Because i work on this guide and these BO since the beginning of Hots and i want to know if it's still good.
This is still very viable play and I still do it to this day. I am going to add a gateway expand section soon.
On May 09 2013 10:56 blade55555 wrote: In zvt I do muta/ling/bane into swarmhost still and vs mech always go swarmhosts it's just such a hard counter to mech :D
Hi Blade
Could you please give an idea of what your Swarm Host build against mech is please? I currently struggle with getting out enough swarm hosts in time to get them penned in, and they will just push with hellion/hellbat and my army gets crushed before I can even get much out.
Could you explain a few details about the zvp Muta style that you mention?
I'm not sure how to best start out or transition into that style.... are you supposed to drop a spire simaltaneously with the hydra den and infestor pit, and just start cranking out mutas off the bat? Or are you supposed to do a heavy ling or ling roach opening, then start making mutas later?
On May 09 2013 10:56 blade55555 wrote: In zvt I do muta/ling/bane into swarmhost still and vs mech always go swarmhosts it's just such a hard counter to mech :D
Hi Blade
Could you please give an idea of what your Swarm Host build against mech is please? I currently struggle with getting out enough swarm hosts in time to get them penned in, and they will just push with hellion/hellbat and my army gets crushed before I can even get much out.
Thanks
Well what I do is get about 9 mutalisks and then go straight to swarmhosts once I see mech. There isn't really any push he can do that will kill you. The composition goes roach/hydra/swarmhost (swarmhost comes first). Any sort of tank/hellbat push can't come before swarmhosts because if there is a timing like that then it will just get crushed because it would have to be a very early push which would mean 3 tanks max.
On May 30 2013 11:47 JohnJohnson wrote: Blade-
Could you explain a few details about the zvp Muta style that you mention?
I'm not sure how to best start out or transition into that style.... are you supposed to drop a spire simaltaneously with the hydra den and infestor pit, and just start cranking out mutas off the bat? Or are you supposed to do a heavy ling or ling roach opening, then start making mutas later?
Ah the muta style is just get a spire as soon as lair finishes (I only do this vs non stargate openings) and get 12-14 muta, then put a hydra/infestation pit down and get swarmhosts (hydra den is if he adds stargates for phoenix you can make hydra) and yeah that's what I do.
The OP doesn't really reflect what I see most people doing with swarm hosts in ZvP now; that is getting vipers quite quickly to deal with the colossus. I'm not really sure the correct timings to start going hive and when to get vipers, how many, how to most effectively use them, etc.
First of i think you are doing this really great helping all us scrubs out, with everything from Guides to YouTube commentary (long time sub here). I successful used some of your builds in s1 of HOTS and went from plat -> mid masters within 300 games, but basically haven't played since the end of that season. I used to have quite a good win ratio in ZvZ, and i actually really enjoyed the muta battles. But to my big surprise the meta have changed quite a lot since i played last time, and i have a really hard time figuring out what builds i should be using. So i was wondering if there is any chance you (or another H. Master/GM) could write down 1-2 solid ZvZ builds - maybe an allin (bling/ling allin) or a more safe macro oriented roach/hydra build?
I'm sorry if this already have been asked in the thread, i read the last 6-7 pages - but haven't been able to locate anything. (Links to external sites with up to date, build orders is appreciated to)
On June 03 2013 08:39 Kallup wrote: Hey Blade & Others...
First of i think you are doing this really great helping all us scrubs out, with everything from Guides to YouTube commentary (long time sub here). I successful used some of your builds in s1 of HOTS and went from plat -> mid masters within 300 games, but basically haven't played since the end of that season. I used to have quite a good win ratio in ZvZ, and i actually really enjoyed the muta battles. But to my big surprise the meta have changed quite a lot since i played last time, and i have a really hard time figuring out what builds i should be using. So i was wondering if there is any chance you (or another H. Master/GM) could write down 1-2 solid ZvZ builds - maybe an allin (bling/ling allin) or a more safe macro oriented roach/hydra build?
I'm sorry if this already have been asked in the thread, i read the last 6-7 pages - but haven't been able to locate anything. (Links to external sites with up to date, build orders is appreciated to)
//Kal
Hm zvz all ins you can do 10 pool ling/bane all in, hatch first pure ling/bane all in or you can still do mutalisk then go into roach/hydra or swarmhosts.
You can do a 1/1 ling upgrade, but I don't' do that build as I am not a fan of it you can watch zerg streams like idra as he does the 1/1 ling build a lot (from what I have seen lately anyway).
Now for the people wanting gateway expand I updated the OP with it and for the people too lazy to look it's in a spoiler.
Reacting to gate expand [list]An old opening that has become popular again is the gateway expand. The gateway expand is something that can put on pressure while teching and can punish fast 3 base no gas play.
When a zerg notices they are facing gateway expansion the zerg player should get a gas asap. This is very, very important. The faster the zerg player gets metabolic boost upgraded the faster lings can move around the map and kill hidden probes or pylons. This is very important because one of the most common things a protoss player does when gateway expanding is to do a 4 gate pressure to try and kill the third base. If the protoss player succeeds this puts the zerg player behind as that third is now delayed and the protoss player is going to be ahead economically. If the zerg defends it without losing the third or take any economic damage, then the zerg player is going to be ahead.
The hard part for the zerg player is knowing if the protoss player is going to do this 4-5 gate pressure or just tech and not do this. This is important information because if zerg makes units, but the protoss isn't doing the 4-5 gate pressure then the zerg's economy is going to be worse then protoss due to making useless units, but if the zerg doesn't make units and the protoss does do 4-5 gate pressure this can be game ending.
Something the zerg player should be doing is have control of the watch towers, have overlords in the common pylon locations and have some lings scouting around everywhere for hidden pylons. While doing this the zerg should be droning the whole time until the zerg sees the protoss move out with the army or the zerg sees pylons going down. Zerg players should be throwing down a roach warren versus gateway expand at about 5:45 - 6 minutes. This is a must as if the protoss player does do a heavy 4-5 gate attack at 6:15, It is very hard to defend this attack with pure speedling unless the zerg player is making them blindly before hand or has static defense. Roach/ling is the better option versus this kind of attack and skipping the roach warren is playing with fire.
Now sacrificing an overlord is very useful versus this opening, sacrificing the overlord at about 5:45-6 minutes is perfect to see tech going up. If zerg doesn't see anything, no stargate, robo, etc then the zerg player should put 1 spore at each base at 6:30-6:45. This is because 99% of the time if the protoss isn't doing a fast 4-5 gate pressure it's going to be stargate or DT. There is the chance of just a robo opener with no stargate/dt, but this isn't very common and this is the best way to proceed if the zerg doesn't scout anything.
If the protoss player doesn't do any sort of early gateway pressure then play the zvp as you normally would.
First I want to thank you for your great guide, as they helped me a lot. I like everything you to do help the zerg community since the release of HotS (specifically).
I have a question for you, what do you do in late late game against a massive Colossus/Void Ray/Archon composition?
I just played a game where I was ahead in every way, won every battle, got a huge bank and a constant 200/200 and thought my position was unbeatable. Usually, I am able to see what's wrong in the replay and I've only ask for help only 3 times in all my SC2 career, but here I just cannot figure out what went wrong with the last engagement.
My Ultra/Hydra/SH army seemed so frail, even if it was not perfectly optimal I cannot understand why I lose this fast. Problem is, 90% of my ZvP look the same atm: I macro up, hold any mid game push, get a cray eco/army, and then just ultimately loose vs an opponent who doesnt even have a better macro.
Since I'm playing your style (which I enjoy a lot), but having so much hard time lately in the late game of this matchup, I ask for your help. I'm really clueless here.
Reacting to gate expand [list]An old opening that has become popular again is the gateway expand. The gateway expand is something that can put on pressure while teching and can punish fast 3 base no gas play.
When a zerg notices they are facing gateway expansion the zerg player should get a gas asap. This is very, very important. The faster the zerg player gets metabolic boost upgraded the faster lings can move around the map and kill hidden probes or pylons. This is very important because one of the most common things a protoss player does when gateway expanding is to do a 4 gate pressure to try and kill the third base. If the protoss player succeeds this puts the zerg player behind as that third is now delayed and the protoss player is going to be ahead economically. If the zerg defends it without losing the third or take any economic damage, then the zerg player is going to be ahead.
The hard part for the zerg player is knowing if the protoss player is going to do this 4-5 gate pressure or just tech and not do this. This is important information because if zerg makes units, but the protoss isn't doing the 4-5 gate pressure then the zerg's economy is going to be worse then protoss due to making useless units, but if the zerg doesn't make units and the protoss does do 4-5 gate pressure this can be game ending.
Something the zerg player should be doing is have control of the watch towers, have overlords in the common pylon locations and have some lings scouting around everywhere for hidden pylons. While doing this the zerg should be droning the whole time until the zerg sees the protoss move out with the army or the zerg sees pylons going down. Zerg players should be throwing down a roach warren versus gateway expand at about 5:45 - 6 minutes. This is a must as if the protoss player does do a heavy 4-5 gate attack at 6:15, It is very hard to defend this attack with pure speedling unless the zerg player is making them blindly before hand or has static defense. Roach/ling is the better option versus this kind of attack and skipping the roach warren is playing with fire.
Now sacrificing an overlord is very useful versus this opening, sacrificing the overlord at about 5:45-6 minutes is perfect to see tech going up. If zerg doesn't see anything, no stargate, robo, etc then the zerg player should put 1 spore at each base at 6:30-6:45. This is because 99% of the time if the protoss isn't doing a fast 4-5 gate pressure it's going to be stargate or DT. There is the chance of just a robo opener with no stargate/dt, but this isn't very common and this is the best way to proceed if the zerg doesn't scout anything.
If the protoss player doesn't do any sort of early gateway pressure then play the zvp as you normally would.
First I want to thank you for your great guide, as they helped me a lot. I like everything you to do help the zerg community since the release of HotS (specifically).
I have a question for you, what do you do in late late game against a massive Colossus/Void Ray/Archon composition?
I just played a game where I was ahead in every way, won every battle, got a huge bank and a constant 200/200 and thought my position was unbeatable. Usually, I am able to see what's wrong in the replay and I've only ask for help only 3 times in all my SC2 career, but here I just cannot figure out what went wrong with the last engagement.
My Ultra/Hydra/SH army seemed so frail, even if it was not perfectly optimal I cannot understand why I lose this fast. Problem is, 90% of my ZvP look the same atm: I macro up, hold any mid game push, get a cray eco/army, and then just ultimately loose vs an opponent who doesnt even have a better macro.
Since I'm playing your style (which I enjoy a lot), but having so much hard time lately in the late game of this matchup, I ask for your help. I'm really clueless here.
so you at least get one answer and to give blade a little pause: I think you started a bit slow (supply difference), but you had everything to win the game and I think you are a good player.
To make this short: Train engagements vs. Protoss.
--> First big battle (20:00 (?)): no corruption used --> Second battle (~27:00): you seemed a bit scared there - you had a bit more army value in both fights, but you didn't fully use it's potential. Maybe you can poke in and attack his army from the back of the locusts. At least scare him a bit and make him move out of position - make a dent into those shiny armors or attack somewhere else with your 'mobile army' - don't just move around behind your SHs!
Compare the Z/P unit compositions - he had a lot of collossi, so your SHs weren't that good anymore and your hydras will allways die fast vs. mass collossi and broodlings are small units, too. The voidrays/immortals are pretty good vs. armored units and i.e. take out the SHs themselves quickly.
Also think about map control - you can try to take the Protoss' vision and do more creep spread (i.e. so he can't expand). Also burrowed zerglings deny expansions for some time or at least your opponent has to focus on that task a bit. At 25:00 you could've taken the watch tower and made the protoss move out of position by breaking the rocks to the back entrance of his base.
Think about attacking from 2 or more sides and army placement (army formation, drops, nydus, ...).
What about macro when you are maxed ? (macro hatches - you had none, right ?; static defense in the south-east where that one DT attacked; creep spread so you deny expansions; ...)
All in all I think you did several small macro mistakes and hesitations because you were a bit scared of the toss-deathball. Train engagements and I believe you'll be much more confident and thus your macro will be better, too.
I hope that helped you - please just take it as ideas. There are reasons why you were both "only" diamond. Maybe also try out the multitasking trainer (HotS version) on NA.
From the changes made to spore crawler, has the meta shifted away from muta vs muta in zvz? Since I follow your guide religiously, I am at a loss to what to do.. Will you have an update anytime soon?
On June 16 2013 11:40 markalbert2kx wrote: Hi Blade,
From the changes made to spore crawler, has the meta shifted away from muta vs muta in zvz? Since I follow your guide religiously, I am at a loss to what to do.. Will you have an update anytime soon?
Regards, kx
zvz is in a weird state right now. 95% of zvz's I play are ling/bane all ins. A lot of zergs are doing fast 1/1 lings and all that but there is no solid meta other then roach/hydra seems to be most popular. I still like mutalisks but it's a bit harder to get there due to 1/1 ling timings and all that.
On June 16 2013 11:40 markalbert2kx wrote: Hi Blade,
From the changes made to spore crawler, has the meta shifted away from muta vs muta in zvz? Since I follow your guide religiously, I am at a loss to what to do.. Will you have an update anytime soon?
Something is not very clear in your OP and has not seem to be addressed in the posts below, it is in ZvP SH usage about whenever you must build a bunch of hydras or not before moving out to pressure toss' 3rd base.
What I understand is :
- If P goes pure colo + Gateway units, Z moves out with 8-10 SH + lings (no hydras).
- If P goes colo/VR, or opens SG (Phoenix or Voids), Z builds 10-15 hydras, 6-7 SH and then moves out.
In the first case (pure colo + gateway units) the P seem to burst my contain a lot easier, to a point its not even a contain really. I tried both combinations (hydras + lings + SH or pure ling + SH) and it has not worked that great for me so far. Should I go back and turtle hard shall I see mass gateway units with colossi?
Something is not very clear in your OP and has not seem to be addressed in the posts below, it is in ZvP SH usage about whenever you must build a bunch of hydras or not before moving out to pressure toss' 3rd base.
What I understand is :
- If P goes pure colo + Gateway units, Z moves out with 8-10 SH + lings (no hydras).
- If P goes colo/VR, or opens SG (Phoenix or Voids), Z builds 10-15 hydras, 6-7 SH and then moves out.
In the first case (pure colo + gateway units) the P seem to burst my contain a lot easier, to a point its not even a contain really. I tried both combinations (hydras + lings + SH or pure ling + SH) and it has not worked that great for me so far. Should I go back and turtle hard shall I see mass gateway units with colossi?
Thank you so much.
Do remember that this guide was written before hots was officially released (updated though but not all updated). A lot of the stuff I figured out in zvp and stuff I just am too lazy to edit it in as it's changed quiet a bit.
The contain in zvp is really no longer ever going to be a long one. There are timings that you want to do that are very, very important that I figured out in zvp when going swarmhost (if you are doing swarmhost without being boring and making mass static defense).
One of the biggest things when doing swarmhosts and again not being boring with mass static defense is to start hive at 12:30 and no later. 12-14 swarmhosts, hive at 12:30 and the reason is, this is the best time to get vipers. There is NO timing that can kill you pre-viper if you start hive at 12:30.
I have had many protoss players try to kill me pre-viper, but roach/hydra/swarmhost crushed every single push. Not once (other then if I made a huge mistake like engaging in a small choke), have I lost to a pre-viper timing other then the time I engaged in the small ramp where the 4'th goes on akilon.
For compositions, if they don't go stargate I go roach/ling/swarmhost, if they go stargate hydra/swarmhost then add in roaches if they aren't going very air heavy, if colossi heavy then I go sh/hydra/ling and not many roaches.
In ZvP: FFE -> double expo. Gateopening -> get lingspeed. Should I dronescout to determin his opening, or will lord scouting get there in time? Is this different from 2 and 4 players maps?
On June 26 2013 19:21 gronnelg wrote: In ZvP: FFE -> double expo. Gateopening -> get lingspeed. Should I dronescout to determin his opening, or will lord scouting get there in time? Is this different from 2 and 4 players maps?
This is map dependent and up to you. For example I drone scout on 2 player maps because some protosses don't probe scout and go forge first hoping you hatch first and then cannon rush you. This also lets you know if he is going gate expand or forge expand and whether to hatch first or not.
On 4 player maps I don't drone scout but a key giveaway if protoss is going gate expand or forge expand is a protoss will not scout if going gate expand (99% of the time) and will scout if going forge expand. You will want to use a ling to scout this though unless your overlord gets lucky.
Blade, just one more thing about what you just said about those pre-hive timings protoss cannot do :
One of the biggest things when doing swarmhosts and again not being boring with mass static defense is to start hive at 12:30 and no later. 12-14 swarmhosts, hive at 12:30 and the reason is, this is the best time to get vipers. There is NO timing that can kill you pre-viper if you start hive at 12:30.
I have had many protoss players try to kill me pre-viper, but roach/hydra/swarmhost crushed every single push.
This obviously is if he is not all-inning, right ? I'm thinking about the 2 immo 2 colo push, in which case you need roaches + spire I think, or do you try to buy time until you get your vipers out ?
Do you ever build a spire before teching hive then, you totally put aside SH + colo even if he is colo heavy ?
One of the biggest things when doing swarmhosts and again not being boring with mass static defense is to start hive at 12:30 and no later. 12-14 swarmhosts, hive at 12:30 and the reason is, this is the best time to get vipers. There is NO timing that can kill you pre-viper if you start hive at 12:30.
I have had many protoss players try to kill me pre-viper, but roach/hydra/swarmhost crushed every single push.
This obviously is if he is not all-inning, right ? I'm thinking about the 2 immo 2 colo push, in which case you need roaches + spire I think, or do you try to buy time until you get your vipers out ?
Do you ever build a spire before teching hive then, you totally put aside SH + colo even if he is colo heavy ?
Thank you for the clarification
If he is doing 2 immortal 2 colossi push roach/swarmhost shits on it really bad. SH/roach is super, super good versus that all in .
I hear every caster say all the time that SH is not what you want vs this all in, and that you should get a spire, but your SH-based technique vs immo sentry all in you describe in your guide has worked so well for me so far that I have unconditional faith in everything you say about this matchup
Thank you Blade, you do an awesome work, really. Your stream is great as well; I hope you do good learning with your ZvP mutas. See you on your stream !
On June 29 2013 19:39 gronnelg wrote: How necessary are roaches in zvt? Are there cases where can skip them? When can't you skip them?
Well I would personally always have a roach warren at least because of hellbats (makes holding the hellbat/marauder push 100x easier because if the terran splits well with his hellbat/marauder ling/bane may not be enough to hold depending on how many units and all that).
I would personally never skip them as sometimes terran players shit themselves and make a ton of bunkers when you aren't even being aggressive with them ^^.
On June 30 2013 03:09 gronnelg wrote: Ah... Good point. So I get a roach warren for safety. And then if I see no hellbat based play, can I just skip roaches?
You can if you want, that is entirely up to you ^_^.
Blade55555, I'm sure you've answered this elsewhere - but what are your thoughts on Hyun's zvp? I'm talking about the gas opener with the slower third as much as his quick hive...?
Blade, will you add in the sections that the HOTS zerg help me has such as the "standard openings" in your guide, or give us your thoughts on those such as the safe roach opener and other builds it suggests?
On August 03 2013 17:53 entropy. wrote: Blade55555, I'm sure you've answered this elsewhere - but what are your thoughts on Hyun's zvp? I'm talking about the gas opener with the slower third as much as his quick hive...?
I like it to add in to my builds. I am releasing a new guide soon (hopefully this or next week). It will be like this, just updated. It will have this build.
On August 04 2013 00:06 noeprellik wrote: 1st sorry for my bad english, @Blade5555, in zvp, if toss going immortal zealot all in, can Zerg hold it with mass roaches?
thanks
Yes, spine crawler support helps as well. Sooner you can see this coming, sooner you can get spines + roach/ling to hold it off.
On August 04 2013 00:55 Ecailles wrote: Blade, will you add in the sections that the HOTS zerg help me has such as the "standard openings" in your guide, or give us your thoughts on those such as the safe roach opener and other builds it suggests?
Updated guide is coming out soon and will feature standard play + my own strategies in zvz/zvp.
I've had great success in using swarm hosts to get into high platinum again, but higher level players still kill me with zealot warpins (from pylons and warp prisms) while I go attack them. How do I prevent that from killing me? Spine Crawlers everywhere? The last protoss I fought just built zealots and void rays (and cannons at his bases) and there was nothing I could do to stop him And he had constantly groups of about 8 zealots running into at least 2 of my bases.
On August 05 2013 21:42 noeprellik wrote: @blade5555
hi blade, how to counter turtle terran vith mass raven and viking ?
thanks a lot =)
Swarmhost/hydra/infestor and a couple vipers for blinding cloud when he moves out is what I would do.
blinding cloud on what? i'm confused. blinding cloud doesn't affect air units.
As the guy above me said, a terran doesn't just go raven/viking. He has tanks as well. If it's just pure viking/raven you should thank the terran for being really silly and just go infestor/hydra and win easy .
On August 07 2013 23:02 blarkh wrote: I've had great success in using swarm hosts to get into high platinum again, but higher level players still kill me with zealot warpins (from pylons and warp prisms) while I go attack them. How do I prevent that from killing me? Spine Crawlers everywhere? The last protoss I fought just built zealots and void rays (and cannons at his bases) and there was nothing I could do to stop him And he had constantly groups of about 8 zealots running into at least 2 of my bases.
You should have spine crawlers or at minimum some roaches left behind. Right now any decent protoss player is going to do warp prism harass once you move out and it's a must to have some sort of defense. If you don't, well I hope you enjoy taking lots of damage xD.
On August 11 2013 06:30 DjayEl wrote: Hi Blade, I'm very fond of ZvP upgraded ling-centric builds and I wonder if you would add a section about them in the new guide you are preparing?
Btw I'm very looking forward to put my eyes on it! Thank your for the hard work.
I have a new guide written, tbh I don't remember if I put that style or not in there, I am going to say I probably didn't and might add it after releasing. I'll think about it I never play it so I dont' think I wrote it down.
On August 11 2013 06:30 DjayEl wrote: Hi Blade, I'm very fond of ZvP upgraded ling-centric builds and I wonder if you would add a section about them in the new guide you are preparing?
Btw I'm very looking forward to put my eyes on it! Thank your for the hard work.
I have a new guide written, tbh I don't remember if I put that style or not in there, I am going to say I probably didn't and might add it after releasing. I'll think about it I never play it so I dont' think I wrote it down.
Oh Jesus Christ Mary Joseph Holy Father! A new Blade guide incoming!? You are the man!
On August 17 2013 07:41 Snitzelslice wrote: When is the new guide coming? I can't wait any longer, I need it! :D
Hopefully very soon just have some clarifications before I officially release it. I would like to do it this weekend, but we shall see where that leads. I will not go any later then next week though for sure.
Day9 Daily 613 Life vs Jjaki sets you up for an attack at ~11-12 minutes with a bunch of ling/baneling and gives you a chance to win/put the terran way behind before all of their production kicks in that fuels their 4m parade.
On August 17 2013 10:48 emathey wrote: Day9 Daily 613 Life vs Jjaki sets you up for an attack at ~11-12 minutes with a bunch of ling/baneling and gives you a chance to win/put the terran way behind before all of their production kicks in that fuels their 4m parade.
I know this, but thanks. Problem is, it precisely "gives me a chance", and unless I do creepling damage I will fall behind in upgrades without having accomplished much. It's a cool strat on some maps, but as soon as the 3rd is easily defendable (say, akilon) I can't do anything... Maybe I am not doing this right. When I don't commit to the attack it has no chance to hurt T's economy, if I do I will grind units while he's getting his tech and then suddenly he will push with a (smaller) force but like 6-7 medivacs dans start dropping me and I just dont have the tech to counter him and my tier3 upgrades will ve much more delayed than his.
On August 17 2013 10:48 emathey wrote: Day9 Daily 613 Life vs Jjaki sets you up for an attack at ~11-12 minutes with a bunch of ling/baneling and gives you a chance to win/put the terran way behind before all of their production kicks in that fuels their 4m parade.
I know this, but thanks. Problem is, it precisely "gives me a chance", and unless I do creepling damage I will fall behind in upgrades without having accomplished much. It's a cool strat on some maps, but as soon as the 3rd is easily defendable (say, akilon) I can't do anything... Maybe I am not doing this right. When I don't commit to the attack it has no chance to hurt T's economy, if I do I will grind units while he's getting his tech and then suddenly he will push with a (smaller) force but like 6-7 medivacs dans start dropping me and I just dont have the tech to counter him and my tier3 upgrades will ve much more delayed than his.
actually you get +2 +2 (just rewatched VOD: life starts it instantly after +1 +1 is done so even before his attack!) with it so you dont delay your upgrades at all + since you wont have gasheavy mutas you even are able to get IP + hive for +3 +3. but yes without doing some damage you will get a problem since you cant kill medivacs and if he manages to get up to 10+ mines you will have an even bigger problem.
imo the best way to do it is to do the first attack, reinforce it and after the reinforcements decide if you can kill him or not. if not: 1 round of drones, get 4th, 5. + 6. gas and IP + some spores for drops.
from there: either ultras or some SHs or infestors or mutas depending on map, damage dealt etc.
On August 17 2013 10:48 emathey wrote: Day9 Daily 613 Life vs Jjaki sets you up for an attack at ~11-12 minutes with a bunch of ling/baneling and gives you a chance to win/put the terran way behind before all of their production kicks in that fuels their 4m parade.
I know this, but thanks. Problem is, it precisely "gives me a chance", and unless I do creepling damage I will fall behind in upgrades without having accomplished much. It's a cool strat on some maps, but as soon as the 3rd is easily defendable (say, akilon) I can't do anything... Maybe I am not doing this right. When I don't commit to the attack it has no chance to hurt T's economy, if I do I will grind units while he's getting his tech and then suddenly he will push with a (smaller) force but like 6-7 medivacs dans start dropping me and I just dont have the tech to counter him and my tier3 upgrades will ve much more delayed than his.
actually you get +2 +2 (just rewatched VOD: life starts it instantly after +1 +1 is done so even before his attack!) with it so you dont delay your upgrades at all + since you wont have gasheavy mutas you even are able to get IP + hive for +3 +3. but yes without doing some damage you will get a problem since you cant kill medivacs and if he manages to get up to 10+ mines you will have an even bigger problem.
imo the best way to do it is to do the first attack, reinforce it and after the reinforcements decide if you can kill him or not. if not: 1 round of drones, get 4th, 5. + 6. gas and IP + some spores for drops.
from there: either ultras or some SHs or infestors or mutas depending on map, damage dealt etc.
I'll try, but how do I attack against well defended 3rd bases like the one one Akilon? Do you think this strategy is still viable?
On August 17 2013 10:48 emathey wrote: Day9 Daily 613 Life vs Jjaki sets you up for an attack at ~11-12 minutes with a bunch of ling/baneling and gives you a chance to win/put the terran way behind before all of their production kicks in that fuels their 4m parade.
I know this, but thanks. Problem is, it precisely "gives me a chance", and unless I do creepling damage I will fall behind in upgrades without having accomplished much. It's a cool strat on some maps, but as soon as the 3rd is easily defendable (say, akilon) I can't do anything... Maybe I am not doing this right. When I don't commit to the attack it has no chance to hurt T's economy, if I do I will grind units while he's getting his tech and then suddenly he will push with a (smaller) force but like 6-7 medivacs dans start dropping me and I just dont have the tech to counter him and my tier3 upgrades will ve much more delayed than his.
actually you get +2 +2 (just rewatched VOD: life starts it instantly after +1 +1 is done so even before his attack!) with it so you dont delay your upgrades at all + since you wont have gasheavy mutas you even are able to get IP + hive for +3 +3. but yes without doing some damage you will get a problem since you cant kill medivacs and if he manages to get up to 10+ mines you will have an even bigger problem.
imo the best way to do it is to do the first attack, reinforce it and after the reinforcements decide if you can kill him or not. if not: 1 round of drones, get 4th, 5. + 6. gas and IP + some spores for drops.
from there: either ultras or some SHs or infestors or mutas depending on map, damage dealt etc.
I'll try, but how do I attack against well defended 3rd bases like the one one Akilon? Do you think this strategy is still viable?
well life did it on belshir but i pretty much do it on every map with good success. if they dont have tanks its definetly possible to also do this on akilon. if you see massive defense...just contain them a bit, get your 4th and SHs which are very awesome to defend 4 bases on akilon pretty easily. akilon has a very big area in front of the natural so its not easy to break your contain.
but its definetly easier on maps like belshir or whirlwind where you have an entrance to the natural and 3rd. but remember that lifes push is designed to gain the momentum and not let him get the 3 base rally with mass WMs rolling. you dont need to kill him. if this gives you breathing room to get a 4th + hive + denying his 4th thats pretty much all you need and its exactly what is so hard if you play the standard 3 base muta instead of 5 hatch ling bane of life.
On August 17 2013 07:41 Snitzelslice wrote: When is the new guide coming? I can't wait any longer, I need it! :D
Hopefully very soon just have some clarifications before I officially release it. I would like to do it this weekend, but we shall see where that leads. I will not go any later then next week though for sure.
So Blade about that guide.... Haha lookin forward to it from coming off a couple month break from sc2, this will help a lot.
On August 17 2013 07:41 Snitzelslice wrote: When is the new guide coming? I can't wait any longer, I need it! :D
Hopefully very soon just have some clarifications before I officially release it. I would like to do it this weekend, but we shall see where that leads. I will not go any later then next week though for sure.
So Blade about that guide.... Haha lookin forward to it from coming off a couple month break from sc2, this will help a lot.
I'm trying to get it out this week. Or I will just post it if not we'll see xD
On August 26 2013 05:18 DarkOwnage wrote: Seriously, I have been waiting close to a month now :x. This is the EXACT reasons why companies do not release commitment dates lol.
Well I let myself get convinced to wait lol I don't intend on having this issue again on my next guide.
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/monk/TLS_Guides/TLS2_blade1.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Vod.png)
Blade vs Psych on Cloud Kingdom Roach/Ling/Bane/Swarmhost into Ultralisk.![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/7/73/Replay_Icon14.png)
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