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ZvZ Transition Sheet

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 16 2013 17:51 GMT
#1
Good luck, have fun!
+ Show Spoiler +
So, we all know that
ZvZ is meh

because it is usually
just mass roach gesturing.

Sometimes we see
Swarmhosts vs swarmhosts.
And they said hellbats were bad.

And it gets worse the longer the game goes on:
tempest vs tempest is blord vs blord zvz

There is probably only one solution to improve ZvZ.
ZvZ needs hellbats



thanks @Dreamhack Livereport threads for the awesome quotes.



ZvZ has been in a wild state since the Spore Crawler buff. Many compositions and transitions seem viable. Therefore I tried to compile all my knowledge about the most prominent ZvZ styles and transitions into one graphic to get a better overview.
[image loading]
(this is by no means a complete information about everything that can be done, and there are surely situations in which a violation on the chart's guidelines can be worthwhile)

How to interprete the graphic:
orange means ranged tech
green means melee tech
blue is everything else
Consistent arrow means that this transition is always viable at some point of the game.
The doted arrow means that this transition is restricted by your opponents choices.
hearters
Profile Joined May 2013
Singapore224 Posts
June 17 2013 05:50 GMT
#2
Nice!

Just wondering, is ultralisk really viable vs hydra -> swarmhost -> broodlord? Have any replays of that?
Research: 1. Creep Spread Trick 2. Patrol Splitting Zerglings 3. Multiple Queen Production 4. Organised Creep Spread 5. Select Larvae/Morph Unit Rapidfire
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
June 17 2013 06:07 GMT
#3
I really, really like this idea. There's only one thing left to do, hit the ladder with this chart in head. See what happens. If win% goes up, probably means you're right.

What league/rank are you?
maru lover forever
Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
June 17 2013 06:08 GMT
#4
nice overview!

On June 17 2013 14:50 hearters wrote:
Nice!

Just wondering, is ultralisk really viable vs hydra -> swarmhost -> broodlord? Have any replays of that?


it depends on the map. on big maps it is viable since you are able to counter attack although vs really big spine walls you need either SH/BLs yourself or drop him if he has few AA.also banes kill locusts insanely fast so if you are able to kill all locusts instantly with some banes you will then be able to roll over roach hydra and the locustless SHs since his infestor and viper (which he shouldnt get vs ultraplay) wont do anything.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 17 2013 14:16 GMT
#5
On June 17 2013 15:07 Incognoto wrote:
I really, really like this idea. There's only one thing left to do, hit the ladder with this chart in head. See what happens. If win% goes up, probably means you're right.

What league/rank are you?



I have been long time master, but only played unranked since the start of HotS (against masters).
Then I started playing ranked during the lock of the last season, so I was only diamond at the end of the season (and was soon playing only masters/high masters who wondered why they had to play a diamond ).
So as a conclusion I'd say I'm probably a midmaster player.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/987923/1/Jay/

On June 17 2013 14:50 hearters wrote:
Nice!

Just wondering, is ultralisk really viable vs hydra -> swarmhost -> broodlord? Have any replays of that?



The point is that I don't think you can go into a (roach-)hydra-swarmhosts-broodlord army against either of the ultralisk transitions.
Like, if you follow the chart, the ways to go ultalisks are:
  • you go fast melee upgrade ling/bling/infestor against melee upgrades or mutalisks.
  • you open mutalisks and then play mutawars until infestors shut them down and then you go into ultralisks.

In neither of those scenarios he should transition into swarmhosts as he gets
  • either overrun/outexpanded by superior ling/bling numbers
  • or overrun/outexpanded by mutalisk/ling/bling with his main antiair being inferior mutalisk numbers.

So if he gets up to swarm hosts and you are on melee/mutalisks, it means that you went down a wrong road or didn't emphasize on a transition mistake from him.

Regardless, it may sometimes happen anyways. I believe ultralisk/baneling/infestor/queen support can compete with roach-hydra-swarmhost-infestor in direct engagements prebroodlord and broodlords are actually quite bad if you add vipers/hydras and just pull them into your antiair. However as neither I myself have ever really played/played against the endgame of an ultralisk style, nor seen a such, most of this is guesswork (which is why I didn't put any transition from ultralisks into the sheet). Usually you can end the game with ultralisks if you reach them from the melee style.
+ Show Spoiler +

generally:
Ultralisks stomp any zerg ground composition - including swarm hosts and at least one wave of their locusts - in an amove battle.
Infestors as support should make sure to force a such.
Banelings work great against hydralisks, locusts and swarmhosts and help you close the distance.

The questions with those compositions are:
How many spines are you engaging into?
Can you get the fungals off?
How much have you lost before engaging, due to constant streams of locusts, vipers (pulling ultras) and enemy fungals (on banelings).

I'd say the situation is not favoring any side generally, but it's much easier for the ultraliskplayer to fuck up.


An example for a swarmhost vs ultra game would be Roro(SH) vs Dimaga(Ultra) from the WCS finals. In which Dimaga lost way too much stuff to locusts over and over again and allowed Roro to go Swarmhosts despite him opening mutalisks. Mainly because he only made 3mutalisks, which basically turned out in him wasting 500/500 to kill 2 ovelords.
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
June 17 2013 16:08 GMT
#6
damn, I guess I need to start watching zvz some more, I've still been trying to finish the game on muta vs muta.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
JohnJohnson
Profile Joined April 2008
United States49 Posts
June 17 2013 17:56 GMT
#7
I think this is really cool.

I somewhat disagree with the no melee upgrades vs roach.

Quite often I beat out roach with upgraded lings, and later even add infestor in, which makes it even easier. You just have to choose where to fight properly so you can surround, and obviously have enough lings.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 17 2013 17:59 GMT
#8
On June 18 2013 02:56 JohnJohnson wrote:
I think this is really cool.

I somewhat disagree with the no melee upgrades vs roach.

Quite often I beat out roach with upgraded lings, and later even add infestor in, which makes it even easier. You just have to choose where to fight properly so you can surround, and obviously have enough lings.


It's true it is not impossibleif you get it off the ground. But roach and roach/baneling pushes in the early midgame/midgame are close to unstoppable. At least, from my experience and from what I have heard the pros say (that ZvZ meta episode for example). I think that's the reason why people stopped doing this back in Wings.
JohnJohnson
Profile Joined April 2008
United States49 Posts
June 17 2013 18:38 GMT
#9
On June 18 2013 02:59 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 18 2013 02:56 JohnJohnson wrote:
I think this is really cool.

I somewhat disagree with the no melee upgrades vs roach.

Quite often I beat out roach with upgraded lings, and later even add infestor in, which makes it even easier. You just have to choose where to fight properly so you can surround, and obviously have enough lings.


It's true it is not impossibleif you get it off the ground. But roach and roach/baneling pushes in the early midgame/midgame are close to unstoppable. At least, from my experience and from what I have heard the pros say (that ZvZ meta episode for example). I think that's the reason why people stopped doing this back in Wings.


yeah if they definitely start incorporating the banes in the pushes vs 1-1/2-2 ling, you HAVE to have fungals by that time or you're screwed.
Elldar
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden287 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-17 19:08:09
June 17 2013 19:07 GMT
#10
I would never want to go infestor -> viper -> brood lord but I could imagine going infestor -> brood lord -> viper. Fungal and blinding cloud seem to synergize if you get attacked at the transition point infestor -> viper but your army should significantly weaker than your opponent and the opponent could probably power through. So going brood lord first would be safer, imo.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
June 17 2013 21:34 GMT
#11
On June 18 2013 04:07 Elldar wrote:
I would never want to go infestor -> viper -> brood lord but I could imagine going infestor -> brood lord -> viper. Fungal and blinding cloud seem to synergize if you get attacked at the transition point infestor -> viper but your army should significantly weaker than your opponent and the opponent could probably power through. So going brood lord first would be safer, imo.


Of course you are allowed to disagree with me on this. And especially towards the lategame with the roach route a lot of transitions become possible.
But the reason why I think you should build vipers first is that they don't have any techcosts and there is hardly any reason to not have a Viper around against any composition, even if it is just a single one. Abduct is simply too good against any hightier unit: infestors, broodlords, ultralisks, swarm hosts, vipers... Just having 1-2 vipers with full energy around can put on a lot of pressure on any enemy composition. And of course blinding clouds are nice tool that can win a mirror engagement or force a disengage as well as the said fungal synergy.

On Broodlords. I'm not too sure about broodlords in ZvZ currently. They are really vulnerable too vipers and can be completely shut down by locust rally.
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
June 19 2013 22:24 GMT
#12
does anyone have any good reps or VODs of a muta player successfully transitioning out against someone who manages to get a third base up?
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Xorphene
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom492 Posts
June 19 2013 23:32 GMT
#13
I'd love to see flowcharts like this for ZvT and ZvP, they are so visual to learn from.

Great job.
T: Polt, Fantasy, Flash, Jjakji. P: HerO, Rain, Grubby, SoS. Z: Jaedong, Scarlett, Snute, Life. Casters: ToD, Apollo, MrBitter, Artosis, Day[9].
Vestige
Profile Joined November 2009
United States303 Posts
June 21 2013 12:52 GMT
#14
in my experience getting infestors before hydras turns out better for me in the roach wars.
"You'd wish it were hell"
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