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I've been thinking about the current zvz and I have a suggestion. I'm trying it now myself but would love to hear what you think anyway. The idea is to counter muta with defensive muta into early muta-infestor.
Basically you go muta just as usuall but the second your third is up you throw down double spores in every base and drop the Infestion pit then make just 2/3 infestors.
The idea behind this is that Infestor transition is usally so hard becuase the more mutas there are the stronger they become so a infestor transtion should be easier earlier rather then later.
You don't need more then a couple infestors to dramaticly shit the balance of the game and finish with just ling muta. So basically you'll be about 4-5 mutas behind your opponent. You make up for this by being VERY defensive with your mutas, fighting only over spores ( hence the infestor transition only after the spores are up in your third ). The aim is to do a double fungal on his mutas ( Ideally near a spore ) then clean up with your mutas, if you get a double fungal your 5 muta deficit is nothing and you shred his muta ball, you're now massively ahead in a muta vs muta game and we all know how that ends up.
Note, Becuase I only make a very few infestors and have no plan to use them beyond winning one amazingly decisive muta battle and then winning with my mutas I don't research the Energy upgrade. I know that slightly delays my first fungal but I feel that I need every drop a gas.
What do you think?
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On April 05 2013 14:05 FakeDeath wrote:
So how will the ZvZ metagame develop?
Or will it get stagnant in muta vs muta?
I find that mutas can be beaten with a roach timing push right as his spire goes up. Your push will do enough econ damage (and maybe kill his expo/drones) and you can follow with hydralisks.
But I suck with muta vs muta.
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On April 07 2013 05:18 Xizorz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 14:05 FakeDeath wrote:
So how will the ZvZ metagame develop?
Or will it get stagnant in muta vs muta? I find that mutas can be beaten with a roach timing push right as his spire goes up. Your push will do enough econ damage (and maybe kill his expo/drones) and you can follow with hydralisks. But I suck with muta vs muta.
Eh this works if the zerg opponent doesn't see it coming. A zerg who scouts it should be able to defend this easily and then they win from there once they hold it off.
On April 06 2013 19:09 gronnelg wrote:
I'm a bit confused on mutas in zvp. If the toss opens 2stargate, I cant go muta, right?
So at what time do you have to scout for stargates, and what/how do you transition out of mutas?
If I scout a 2 stargate (I use an overseer) I would not go mutalisks as that's pretty suicidal imo. Scout for it as soon as lair finishes and if I go muta I transition into sh/hydra while teching hive.
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My biggest problem is fighting mech right now.
I find that when I go for the 6:30 3rd expo, I get met with hellion banshee pressure. Hellions are no big deal, just roach them. But the banshees are out before I have any spire/hydra, and they're prettty good at picking off a queen if they get there before my Lair is up.
So I lose my 3rd alot, or at the least it just sits there and I can't drone on it.
Fast forward to late game, I feel like I can't ever pressure the T. Thors aren't even really a problem, I've been getting killed by mass hellbat/tank/raven/mine. I go for the SH+ roach hydra , and try and fend off his pushes,, but he just mass seeker missles my SH , or hydra, plus like 6 mines in front so I can't get close enough to snipe the ravens.
Eventually I die to a composition of Tank/Mine/Hellbat/Raven/BC
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On April 08 2013 10:50 JohnJohnson wrote:
My biggest problem is fighting mech right now.
I find that when I go for the 6:30 3rd expo, I get met with hellion banshee pressure. Hellions are no big deal, just roach them. But the banshees are out before I have any spire/hydra, and they're prettty good at picking off a queen if they get there before my Lair is up.
So I lose my 3rd alot, or at the least it just sits there and I can't drone on it.
Fast forward to late game, I feel like I can't ever pressure the T. Thors aren't even really a problem, I've been getting killed by mass hellbat/tank/raven/mine. I go for the SH+ roach hydra , and try and fend off his pushes,, but he just mass seeker missles my SH , or hydra, plus like 6 mines in front so I can't get close enough to snipe the ravens.
Eventually I die to a composition of Tank/Mine/Hellbat/Raven/BC
K a few things. Make a spore in all bases once you see banshee (or you can do this blind if you face it that much) remember you dont' need an evo for this. Once banshee is attacking your third and you have a spore crawler send your other queens there until the spore finishes.
Late game swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper is very strong versus mech. On every map except for newkirk and akilon you can deny the 4'th of the terran for a long time and win from there if you go fast swarmhost with hydra support (roach/hydra if he tries a fast push).
Make sure to start hive 12 minutes 13 at latest so you can get vipers pretty fast ^_^.
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Thanks blade a lot for making these guides and videos, very helpful =)
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Hi Blade.
Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
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On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote:
Hi Blade.
Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
Can you post your roach timing BO?
What's best timing for scout in ZvZ? Does it depend if you hatch first or pool then hatch?
I feel so weak atm, worst matchup win ratio for me atm, and i had like 66% WR in WoL.
Just losing to nonsense mass lings, and cheesy all ins and almost 7/10 matches on ladder are ZvZ for me (EU diamond).
Thanks 
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On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote:
Hi Blade.
Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch).
You have to remember if you are hitting pre-muta timing you are sacrificing tech and economy to do this. This is why you have to do damage. If you dont' do damage or kill him you are going to be behind in every way. He will have the tech (lair), he will have complete map control of which you can do nothing about and by the time you are finally lair and teching yourself he can kill you whenever he chooses.
Killing his third isn't a big deal when you are doing a pre-muta timing. Even if you don't commit to the attack you sacrificed economy and tech and then if you didn't even attack and only denied the third your still in bad shape.
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I look forward to reading this later
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Stopped by to say thank you for the overview. I haven't played ladder in 2-3 years AND I switched from terran to zerg. I felt pretty clueless, but your guide gave me a great framework to go with. I am currently on a winning streak, you really did a great job telling the reader how to react to certain builds, I'm really starting to understand the zerg philosophy. I love gaining little economic and tech advantages here and there, all the little things add up to grant you victory. Your replays were also very helpful, thanks for your prompt responses!
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I feel redundant, but a big thank you again blade !
In 50 ladder games I did Mid-Gold > Top Diamond because even if I still do a lot of mistakes I know where I go in each matchup.
I wondered, against lot of mines and terran mech in ZvT, is a minsesweeper squad useful ? Like 4 Hydra + Overseer on a control group ? I tried it and it feel nice... just asking confirmation . Of course I puted static defense but I can't put it everywhere.
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On April 10 2013 17:25 RandomQueen wrote:I feel redundant, but a big thank you again blade ! In 50 ladder games I did Mid-Gold > Top Diamond because even if I still do a lot of mistakes I know where I go in each matchup. I wondered, against lot of mines and terran mech in ZvT, is a minsesweeper squad useful ? Like 4 Hydra + Overseer on a control group ? I tried it and it feel nice... just asking confirmation . Of course I puted static defense but I can't put it everywhere.
Swarmhosts are a lot better vs mech especially vs mines. Having hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper is imo strongest composition vs mech and also pretty mobile to.
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Yeah I had exactly this composition, I failed because of the mid-game where I wasn't ready and he damaged me severely. I still had my chances with this composition even with my strong fail at the mid-game.
I was more talking about denying a mine or two on a future expansion etc without bringing "slow" SH
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On April 09 2013 20:48 Expir3d wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote:
Hi Blade.
Great work in this thread and the others, there are many who read but don't post who really appreciate what chaps like you are doing!
I have another annoying question about ZvZ roach timings. I'm having a lot of success with +1 roach pressure, hitting ~9:00, just before mutas come. If he sees me coming late without scouting (usually) he needs a massive response to prevent taking critical damage, as lings are worthless vs +1 roach. But you contend that I *have* to do damage or the roaching player is autolose.
I have to ask the question, if the player is spined up and impenetrable, why not just take out his 3rd or deny it while yours goes up, covered by queen/roach? You can kill a made hatch or force a cancel vs the first pop of muta, If my 3rd goes online before his, or even at the same time, am I really that far behind since he's invested in 6 spines? His main threat is ling pressure and the roaches can kill any number of those, while I'm transitioning to hydra...why is this considered such a bad play? I only ask because it's working really great for me atm (~62% win ratio vs Z, mainly cheese losses since I 15 hatch). Can you post your roach timing BO? What's best timing for scout in ZvZ? Does it depend if you hatch first or pool then hatch? I feel so weak atm, worst matchup win ratio for me atm, and i had like 66% WR in WoL. Just losing to nonsense mass lings, and cheesy all ins and almost 7/10 matches on ladder are ZvZ for me (EU diamond). Thanks
I play a heavily modified version of Zelniq's ancient anti-muta build from 2010 atm. 15 hatch with queen block and a spine to shutdown tier 1 pressure, 28 food grab double gas and evo, +1 and drone to 36 then roach to 68 food, push around 8:15, +1 comes up halfway across the map. Behind this, go lair, heavy queen production, take 3rd (must have creeped to it), queens will keep 3rd safe without over-commitment into static, and queen production saves larvae so can rapidly catch up in drones.
Ideally you creep highway to his 3rd and hit it again very shortly later with a few hydras mixed into the roach queen (or just kill him if he's already crippled). From there just open out into standard roach/hydra/infestor play. Scouting is accomplished by lords, a singleton set of initial lings, and the roach push itself - you don't need much information: You are safe from all-ins as long as you monitor what's happening at his natural, and the roaches pin mutas to his base long enough to get 5-6 queens and a spore at each base.
On April 10 2013 02:57 blade55555 wrote:
You have to remember if you are hitting pre-muta timing you are sacrificing tech and economy to do this. This is why you have to do damage. If you dont' do damage or kill him you are going to be behind in every way. He will have the tech (lair), he will have complete map control of which you can do nothing about and by the time you are finally lair and teching yourself he can kill you whenever he chooses.
Killing his third isn't a big deal when you are doing a pre-muta timing. Even if you don't commit to the attack you sacrificed economy and tech and then if you didn't even attack and only denied the third your still in bad shape.
See, that's what people tell me! I still don't understand the theory. I am very interested why this sort of play isn't viable at GM level. I can't test it because my ZvT is drastically holding me back, but I'm usually over 65% ZvZ.
I see that I'm a little behind if I do nothing but force 6 spines and delay 3rd, but why can he kill me? Between a pack of queens and a bit of static, +1 roaches on the field, he can't kill any of my 3 bases, so I can safely drone to 55 after my push goes out. What does map control actually matter when your 3rd is safe and online? Will he double expand and just get 8 gas muta for a kill? What am I missing?
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How far behind is a Zerg actually if they 15 pool instead of 15 hatch? I generally open 15 pool so that I don't die to early pools which are common where I'm at, does the player who opens 15 pool have to do any form of economic damage or what steps should they take to not be behind the Zerg who 15 hatches?
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On April 09 2013 20:21 DaemonX wrote:
See, that's what people tell me! I still don't understand the theory. I am very interested why this sort of play isn't viable at GM level. I can't test it because my ZvT is drastically holding me back, but I'm usually over 65% ZvZ.
I see that I'm a little behind if I do nothing but force 6 spines and delay 3rd, but why can he kill me? Between a pack of queens and a bit of static, +1 roaches on the field, he can't kill any of my 3 bases, so I can safely drone to 55 after my push goes out. What does map control actually matter when your 3rd is safe and online? Will he double expand and just get 8 gas muta for a kill? What am I missing?
He has a severe tech advantage. He has complete map dominance and can be as greedy as he could possibly wish to be. Your lair starts when his is already done. Losing a third isn't that big of a deal vs this, You are still a long way from infestor/hydra tech so you will need to spore/queen HEAVILY to defend your 3 bases. This costs a lot of minerals which can't be used to catch up in tech or to make offensive units.
He can choose whatever the hell he wants; most likely ling/ultra (double upgrades) vs a roach/hydra player. roach/hydra melts when ultras hit the field, and you'll need to hit before that - which you most likely can't after having put so much resources into defending.
On April 10 2013 23:44 SneakyWeasel wrote:
How far behind is a Zerg actually if they 15 pool instead of 15 hatch? I generally open 15 pool so that I don't die to early pools which are common where I'm at, does the player who opens 15 pool have to do any form of economic damage or what steps should they take to not be behind the Zerg who 15 hatches?
Not much. I 15 pool every single game. You're just going to have to play knowing a 15hatch will be a slightly ahead, but it won't win or lose you the game. Watch out for mass speedlings - 15H into mass ling is quite a common all in. Thus, be sure to scout how many drones he has/run a few lings in his base to see his ling count. [/QUOTE]
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how to play vs gateway openings? when take your 3rd, when take gases, when take 3 roach warren, when lair, when sacc ovi?
completely lost vs gate first openings 
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On April 11 2013 03:53 Decendos wrote:how to play vs gateway openings? when take your 3rd, when take gases, when take 3 roach warren, when lair, when sacc ovi? completely lost vs gate first openings
Take a third when you see him taking his natural, make sure you get ling speed asap as well. Hatch first if possible.
Should take a gas as soon as you see non forge FE. Roach warren I make at about 7 minutes. If I see he is doing a 1 base 4 gate I make spines + speedlings to hold it off.
Lair is about 7 minutes.
If you are going to sac an ovie do it between 5:30-5:45
Expect some sort of pressure if a toss player goes gate expand but doesn't do any sort of pressure at all he's already behind economically unless you made a ton of defense for no reason.
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EPT
