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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On March 12 2015 03:12 KatatoniK wrote:
Hello my Protoss brethren, this season my PvP has been rather, shall we say, lacking. Currently sat at a 36% win rate and honestly my play is all over the place because I don't know what kind of builds to expect on each map or when to expand etc.
My vetoes are Expedition Lost, Secret Spring and Overgrowth.
Basically you want to veto large, 4p maps so you can focus on reducing variables, scouting, and reacting correctly.
Overgrowth you should def. be playing...
Some tips:
If you see 1 gas, check for fast expand or 4 gate
If you see 2 gas, figure out where the gas is going...
1 gate = send your msc to scout
2 gates = don't scout w msc
Check for proxy pylons. If you find a proxy pylon be ready for gateway rushes or DTs
Make an early sentry if you see 2 gateways and can't scout with Msc. You can use halucination to scout and confirm what he's doing.
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On March 12 2015 05:14 Ashent wrote:Show nested quote +Besides, you can beat hackers in PvP even with aggressive builds just because they can't micro. For example, they often try to rush to sentries and fail when I go 10 gate into 3 gate. While I agree that a hacker you're playing will likely be much worse in micro than you (as they have the same MMR as you do while having maphacks on) I have to disagree on this one.. If they see you 10 gate they will be able to directly counter it without even sending a 9 scout. Every game. Their micro would have to be leagues and leagues below you to lose this every time.
I'm not a maphacker and there are a few players who only do 10 gate into 3 gate , I know it and I still can't hold sometimes. You need good micro or you die, even with a "blind counter". That's why many maphackers try to get cannons at the ramp or sentries which doesn't work and they lose.
On March 12 2015 03:12 KatatoniK wrote:
Hello my Protoss brethren, this season my PvP has been rather, shall we say, lacking. Currently sat at a 36% win rate and honestly my play is all over the place because I don't know what kind of builds to expect on each map or when to expand etc.
My vetoes are Expedition Lost, Secret Spring and Overgrowth.
I don't know what the meta is like at your level, honestly (you're around gold, we played at the TLMC open or am I wrong?). At high level ladder, blink is the most common opening. The blink opening is extremely all-around and it can get you ahead against almost anything provided you have an excellent decision making and micro, but this is usually not the case in lower leagues. So, I would advise something like 2 gate robo expand, or 2 gate DT expand, which are very simple to execute macro builds.
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On March 14 2015 06:10 KingAlphard wrote: Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 03:12 KatatoniK wrote:
Hello my Protoss brethren, this season my PvP has been rather, shall we say, lacking. Currently sat at a 36% win rate and honestly my play is all over the place because I don't know what kind of builds to expect on each map or when to expand etc.
My vetoes are Expedition Lost, Secret Spring and Overgrowth. I don't know what the meta is like at your level, honestly (you're around gold, we played at the TLMC open or am I wrong?). At high level ladder, blink is the most common opening. The blink opening is extremely all-around and it can get you ahead against almost anything provided you have an excellent decision making and micro, but this is usually not the case in lower leagues. So, I would advise something like 2 gate robo expand, or 2 gate DT expand, which are very simple to execute macro builds.
Yes we did, I still watch the replay back to look at my abysmal twilight timing lol :D
There isn't really a meta down in gold sadly, probably the main cause of my troubles honestly, it's hard to prepare for something when you don't know what that something is ^^
Who would be a good player to watch for either of those openings? I've watched so much SC2 recently all the PvP games have blurred into one XD
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Italy12246 Posts
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I was indeed refering to Rain's robo expand. It seems like there are some more popular robo expand builds now on the ladder, like 1 gate-> robo-> expand, or 2 gate -> expand -> robo, but Rain's build is fine.
My idea of dt opening was the "economic DT expand" in the third link (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/430467-sc2-notes-some-pvp-dt-builds). You can also drop the twilight immediately after the core for even faster DTs, but you should check that there aren't probes approaching your base before.
These builds are strong against almost everything, especially the DT opening allows you to crush any kind of random crazy build that doesn't get detection within 6:40. One thing you need to be careful about is void rays, they are surprisingly effective in lower leagues as people often get caught without anti air and/or can't micro blink stalkers properly against them.
Again, there are not many progamers playing these builds because the current meta revolves mostly around blink.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah i agree. DT expands are kind of meh against robo expands because they just get a quick obs; in that spot you should make a warp prism and drop a DT in the main while sending a second one in the natural. In lower leagues this should work basically all the time since i doubt people will get a second obs to be safe against it.
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When scouting a proxy 2 gate in PvP, which is the best response? Do you throw down a second gate of your own for zealots or do you get a cyber core for a msc and maybe a second gate later?
I have had success and failure with both methods, and was wondering what the optimal response is.
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Italy12246 Posts
I personally cut at 15-16 probes (vs his 10) and went 3gate mass zealot because my micro is shit so i cant reliably win with 2 gates >.> It's probably not optimal and you need to be really careful and scout if he ever goes gas, but it always worked for me.
If you go gas+core you definitely don't want to get a second gas or a gate (neither will be useful and you would cut production off your first gate to get them, which is obviously not ideal), you should just get as many stalkers as you can and micro them along with probes. A msc alone doesnt have enough dps to keep the zealots from killing all your stuff. If (as is likely) the game turns into a basetrade you have the advantage of having ranged units vs melee units, but his zealots will kill buildings faster than your stalker(d)/msc/probes. Going gas is much more micro intensive, so keep that in mind.
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I'll add a few more things.
If it's very close to your mineral line, you can pull the probes and surround the gateways. 5-6 probes on the gateway with more health, 4 probes on the other one. If he doesn't build additional gateways, you can remove the probes from the 2nd gateway. You hold 100% of the times this way but you might not be ahead due to the lost mining time, if, for example, he doesn't build any zealot and gets the core inside his main base.
Otherwise you can go for gasless 3 gate/2 gate defense. 2 gate is more optimal since you can build a couple more probes (up to 16 - ALWAYS even numbers of probes since zealots cost 2 supply and the supply limit is always even!! ) and be able to maintain the full zealot production even if you pull some of them. The disadvantage is that you will never have more zealots than your opponent, your only advantage is probes, so you need to keep microing and slowly tech to cyber core. 3 gate is slightly weaker at first but after a minute or so you will completely overwhelm him in numbers. It's not very good against fast transitions to cyber core though.
Going for gas/core is not the best response unless you opened 10 gate. However if you scout the proxy after you started your gases, it's not worth it to cancel them and start additional gateways, so you need to go for the mothership core and either basetrade with stalkers and probes or defend with zealots like Rain did against HuK.
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On February 27 2015 12:56 PtitDrogo wrote:
Also a little fun Fact, if you're facing pure hydra/Viper, you should start the fight, wait for him to blinding cloud you, then blink in, if he doesn't have enough energy to blinding cloud again, you win (wich happen often since they usually make only 2/3 vipers with half full of energy so they don't die to feedback) This works because Hydras don't tank shits, roach/hydra is just wait better imo.
Just tried this against with an equal number of hydras and stalkers in the unit tester, equal upgrades. Hydras won easily with +2 attack. It was a bit less disastrous with +3 attack, but it could still go either way. More often than not, the zerg's way.
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On March 15 2015 06:25 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 12:56 PtitDrogo wrote:
Also a little fun Fact, if you're facing pure hydra/Viper, you should start the fight, wait for him to blinding cloud you, then blink in, if he doesn't have enough energy to blinding cloud again, you win (wich happen often since they usually make only 2/3 vipers with half full of energy so they don't die to feedback) This works because Hydras don't tank shits, roach/hydra is just wait better imo. Just tried this against with an equal number of hydras and stalkers in the unit tester, equal upgrades. Hydras won easily with +2 attack. It was a bit less disastrous with +3 attack, but it could still go either way. More often than not, the zerg's way.
+ just trading equally isn't efficient versus a zerg, so you'd have to win convincingly for it to be worth it imo
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On March 15 2015 07:33 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 06:25 vhapter wrote:On February 27 2015 12:56 PtitDrogo wrote:
Also a little fun Fact, if you're facing pure hydra/Viper, you should start the fight, wait for him to blinding cloud you, then blink in, if he doesn't have enough energy to blinding cloud again, you win (wich happen often since they usually make only 2/3 vipers with half full of energy so they don't die to feedback) This works because Hydras don't tank shits, roach/hydra is just wait better imo. Just tried this against with an equal number of hydras and stalkers in the unit tester, equal upgrades. Hydras won easily with +2 attack. It was a bit less disastrous with +3 attack, but it could still go either way. More often than not, the zerg's way. + just trading equally isn't efficient versus a zerg, so you'd have to win convincingly for it to be worth it imo
Not with a pure blink stalker army, they are extremely easy to replace being gateway units and don't cost too much gas.
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Thabks for all the advice! I will try out a 3 gate defence, never seen it before.
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On March 15 2015 07:42 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 07:33 Arcanefrost wrote:On March 15 2015 06:25 vhapter wrote:On February 27 2015 12:56 PtitDrogo wrote:
Also a little fun Fact, if you're facing pure hydra/Viper, you should start the fight, wait for him to blinding cloud you, then blink in, if he doesn't have enough energy to blinding cloud again, you win (wich happen often since they usually make only 2/3 vipers with half full of energy so they don't die to feedback) This works because Hydras don't tank shits, roach/hydra is just wait better imo. Just tried this against with an equal number of hydras and stalkers in the unit tester, equal upgrades. Hydras won easily with +2 attack. It was a bit less disastrous with +3 attack, but it could still go either way. More often than not, the zerg's way. + just trading equally isn't efficient versus a zerg, so you'd have to win convincingly for it to be worth it imo Not with a pure blink stalker army, they are extremely easy to replace being gateway units and don't cost too much gas.
But the zerg will remax much faster than you, they aren't thát easy to replace
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Does anybody have a replay/ build order of a macro PvP opening?
I'm primarily looking for a 3 gate blink => robo, but other openings/builds would be great as well!
I'm looking for builds that open into a macro game.
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You can find several build orders on reddit. Here's a list. Some of the builds that have been posted more recently aren't on the list though.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CxAiv5lcPCT4pIZfZe91l8ZDGTKTGnlPaiMDTmfpPeU/edit
On March 15 2015 07:42 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 07:33 Arcanefrost wrote:On March 15 2015 06:25 vhapter wrote:On February 27 2015 12:56 PtitDrogo wrote:
Also a little fun Fact, if you're facing pure hydra/Viper, you should start the fight, wait for him to blinding cloud you, then blink in, if he doesn't have enough energy to blinding cloud again, you win (wich happen often since they usually make only 2/3 vipers with half full of energy so they don't die to feedback) This works because Hydras don't tank shits, roach/hydra is just wait better imo. Just tried this against with an equal number of hydras and stalkers in the unit tester, equal upgrades. Hydras won easily with +2 attack. It was a bit less disastrous with +3 attack, but it could still go either way. More often than not, the zerg's way. + just trading equally isn't efficient versus a zerg, so you'd have to win convincingly for it to be worth it imo Not with a pure blink stalker army, they are extremely easy to replace being gateway units and don't cost too much gas.
That doesn't make trading with a 1:1 stalker/hydra ratio particularly good. It's not uncommon for zergs to be up a base and have more workers than the protoss player. The fact that stalkers are more expensive only makes things worse.
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Is there any kind of consensus on the best way of putting down multiple Force Fields, particularly in PvZ?
Let's say I want to put down 5 Force Fields. From what I can tell, there are four methods for doing that.
1) F + Click, F + Click, F + Click, F + Click, F + Click
2) F + Shift + Click x5
3) Shift + F + Click x5
4) Hold down F + Click x5
Method 1) is slow and imprecise, plus there is the danger of accidentally deselecting your Sentries if you click twice and your mouse is over an opponent's unit. Unfortunately it still seems like the go-to method.
Method 2) and 3) are the same, the problem is that if the Sentries already have a move or a-move command, they will first move to their target location, then cast the Force Fields (with potentially disastrous consequences). On the other hand, it's faster and more precise if they are already there.
Method 4) seems like the best in theory, as it has the advantages of 2) and 3) without the disadvantages. Unfortunately, it only works properly if you hold down F and then wait half a second before clicking, otherwise it only puts down the first Force Field, then nothing for a second, and only then continues to Force Field properly again. And when you've got speedlings running at your army on creep, you simply can't wait half a second.
Is there a better way that I'm not aware of? From what I can tell, Korean pros use multiple methods (sometimes you can clearly see that they shift clicked because all Force Fields come down at the exact same moment, but on their streams you can also sometimes see them using method 1).
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On March 16 2015 09:31 Aesto wrote:
Is there any kind of consensus on the best way of putting down multiple Force Fields, particularly in PvZ?
Let's say I want to put down 5 Force Fields. From what I can tell, there are four methods for doing that.
1) F + Click, F + Click, F + Click, F + Click, F + Click
2) F + Shift + Click x5
3) Shift + F + Click x5
4) Hold down F + Click x5
Method 1) is slow and imprecise, plus there is the danger of accidentally deselecting your Sentries if you click twice and your mouse is over an opponent's unit. Unfortunately it still seems like the go-to method.
Method 2) and 3) are the same, the problem is that if the Sentries already have a move or a-move command, they will first move to their target location, then cast the Force Fields (with potentially disastrous consequences). On the other hand, it's faster and more precise if they are already there.
Method 4) seems like the best in theory, as it has the advantages of 2) and 3) without the disadvantages. Unfortunately, it only works properly if you hold down F and then wait half a second before clicking, otherwise it only puts down the first Force Field, then nothing for a second, and only then continues to Force Field properly again. And when you've got speedlings running at your army on creep, you simply can't wait half a second.
Is there a better way that I'm not aware of? From what I can tell, Korean pros use multiple methods (sometimes you can clearly see that they shift clicked because all Force Fields come down at the exact same moment, but on their streams you can also sometimes see them using method 1).
I think I have seen some people bind it to the mouse wheel. I think it takes practice, but can be very fast. I also think people have been exploring the Rapid Fire Hotkey method seen here
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/446530-rapid-fire-hotkey-trick
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United States7483 Posts
On March 16 2015 09:31 Aesto wrote:
Is there any kind of consensus on the best way of putting down multiple Force Fields, particularly in PvZ?
Let's say I want to put down 5 Force Fields. From what I can tell, there are four methods for doing that.
1) F + Click, F + Click, F + Click, F + Click, F + Click
2) F + Shift + Click x5
3) Shift + F + Click x5
4) Hold down F + Click x5
Method 1) is slow and imprecise, plus there is the danger of accidentally deselecting your Sentries if you click twice and your mouse is over an opponent's unit. Unfortunately it still seems like the go-to method.
Method 2) and 3) are the same, the problem is that if the Sentries already have a move or a-move command, they will first move to their target location, then cast the Force Fields (with potentially disastrous consequences). On the other hand, it's faster and more precise if they are already there.
Method 4) seems like the best in theory, as it has the advantages of 2) and 3) without the disadvantages. Unfortunately, it only works properly if you hold down F and then wait half a second before clicking, otherwise it only puts down the first Force Field, then nothing for a second, and only then continues to Force Field properly again. And when you've got speedlings running at your army on creep, you simply can't wait half a second.
Is there a better way that I'm not aware of? From what I can tell, Korean pros use multiple methods (sometimes you can clearly see that they shift clicked because all Force Fields come down at the exact same moment, but on their streams you can also sometimes see them using method 1).
With method 2 and 3, if you give a stop command before you start forcefielding, you solve the problem of the move command issue.
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EPT
