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United States4883 Posts
I was watching GSL and absolutely astounded by how well Dear annihilated Trap with some really beautiful PvP games in games 1 and 3, so I decided to take some notes on Dear's DT into immortal drop build. At first, I was a little nonplussed by the build, but the more I've delved into it, the more fascinating and clever this strategy has become.
Links:
Dear vs. Trap G1
Dear vs. Trap G3
Dear vs. Trap G1 Twitch
Dear vs. Trap G3 Twitch
SC2 Notes: Some PvP DT builds
This is a great video on PvP scouting by ShockSC2 WATCH IT
In both game 1 and 3, he does almost the same build with only slight variations, but essentially it comes down to this:
9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus)
13 gate
15 double gas (3 on each gas)
**probe scout**
17 pylon
18 core
22 twilight (3:45)
22 warpgate
24 MSC (chronoboost)
24 pylon
26 stalker
27 dark shrine (4:35)
31 sentry
32 robo (5:30)
32 proxy pylon (probe scout)
@6:00 nexus OR gate x2
@100% dark shrine, warp in DT (6:30)
Dear does a fairly standard DT expand with a slight twist: he makes very few gateway units and avoids making additional gateways for as long as possible. The combination of these two things allow him to not only get an incredibly fast dark shrine, but also a reasonably timed robo and nexus.
He initially sends out a fairly early worker scout (after gases vs. after 2nd pylon or core) to find his opponent's base. From this series, it's hard to tell if the early scout was intended because both maps were 4-player maps or if Dear was simply trying to get an earlier scout on his notoriously aggressive teammate Trap. Either way, this timing is strong on both maps to scout your opponent as well as to plant early proxy pylons.
Dear's only two units made out of his single gateway are a stalker and a sentry. The stalker's main purpose is to poke around the natural and 3rd for proxies while the MSC scouts the cliff areas outside the main base. When the sentry pops out, Dear uses a combination of forcefield and good micro with his small number of units to hold off any kind of early pokes. In both games, Trap uses a 3-stalker rush to try and put pressure on Dear, but Dear is able to deflect these pressure attempts with ease. If the opponent commits to a serious pressure, Dear can use the nexus cannon to push away the attack and buy enough time for the dark shrine to complete and use DTs to defend.
Dear's followup scout at 6:00 is primarily looking for 3 things:
- The presence of a nexus at the natural
- The presence of units at home vs. aggressively placed units
- The tech structures and gateway count in the opponent's base
The combination of these 3 things lets Dear how to react and respond to his opponent properly. Assuming he scouts a nexus or defensively placed units, he will start an early nexus and use DTs and immortals to defend. However, if he scouts aggression, he'll opt to throw down 2 more gateways instead. The DT warpin also serves as a sort of extra scout to find out your opponent's tech path and whether or not they threw down a later expansion. When under pressure, Dear seems to prefer warping in an aggressive DT first, then chronoboosting his gateway and warping in the second DT at home to defend.
It's important to note that Dear immediately starts chronoboosting immortals as soon as the robo completes (unless he needs an observer for detection). This not only helps with defending later tech-based all-ins, but also with setting up his heavily-favored immortal drop mid game. The immortal drops are an important part of the mid game strategy because they punish non stalker-heavy openings well. In order to deal with immortal drops well, his opponent has to warp in several units and constantly re-position in order to avoid taking heavy losses. Meanwhile, back at home, Dear is free to macro up however he pleases, allowing him to catch up versus a faster expand or a player who is ahead in tech.
Left to his own devices, the build pretty much continues in this order as he transitions into Immortal/archon/chargelot:
Non-specific timings, based on relative timings after stabilizing:
- @100% robo -> 2 immortals -> warp prism (all chronoboosted)
- ~nexus finishes, forge and natural gases
- Constant chronoboost on probes until 2-base saturation
- Restart immortal production when possible
- @50% +1 attack -> charge and templar archives
- Add 3 gateways -> take 3rd base
Dear also showed a cool aggressive variant in game 1 where he went for a counter push using a DT archon, 2 immortals, and a warp prism. This timing is pretty solid and works quite well against an aggressive player who overcommits. It's even possible to go into a colossus transition instead of immortal/archon/chargelot using this build, as Dear showed in game 1.
All in all, the DT/Immortal Drop strategy Dear shows in these games is phenomenally well-planned and well-structured. It is both safe and flexible, and relies heavily on forcing your opponent into a smaller box. I dub it a good PvP game plan  .
Sidenote: I'll try to do some more research on this build and see if I can get more optimal timings. If I find some exact timings, I'll be sure to edit them in!
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Italy12246 Posts
Wtf start posting this in strategy, not blogs  Moved!
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thanks again going to be trying this build out on ladder!
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Dear is quickly becoming one of my favorite Protoss. So many interesting game plans. So many interesting games. Think we'll ever see an "SC2 Notes" on his game vs Symbol in GSTL?
Thanks SC2 John! This is a sick build!
Also I agree with Teoita, just start posting these in the strat forum dude. You're way too good at this now to just be delegated to blogs. (See: your background)
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Dude you're awesome. These posts are extremely useful.
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Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups
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On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups
No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. While the DT player will definitely get into some serious trouble if the rushing player unpowers his gateways, the DT player has the upper hand both defensively and offensively from 6:15-6:25 on, which is when DTs comes into play. You can buy time with the aid of photon overcharge, and after that you defend with dts while killing probes. The second gateway being delayed doesn't allow for both defense and delay, but you can still defend without a problem as long as you're able to warp in DTs.
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On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build.
There is a lot of theorycraft going in that answer, vhapter. Do you have a vod/replay of this build holding a properly executed 10 or 11 gate? In my experience, the rushing player can attack through the photon overcharge and easily do game ending damage while scouting the DTs.
This is why scouting early with the DT build help, you can at least get more gates earlier, maybe a zealot too. In my experience, you have to scout and deviate from the build to have a chance.
This DT build was never meant to be super safe, it's OK to risk to lose to something horrible like an early gate 3-gate.
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Hi John, nice notes John!
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On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. While the DT player will definitely get into some serious trouble if the rushing player unpowers his gateways, the DT player has the upper hand both defensively and offensively from 6:15-6:25 on, which is when DTs comes into play. You can buy time with the aid of photon overcharge, and after that you defend with dts while killing probes. The second gateway being delayed doesn't allow for both defense and delay, but you can still defend without a problem as long as you're able to warp in DTs.
Photon Overcharge isn't that strong...by 5:22 you barely have any units and the other protoss player can sac some stalkers to kill your entire economy while getting detection back home
10g 3gate all-ins is a strong counter to this build but that's why Dear scouts after gas...that small timing window he bought to scout the opponent's base will help him determine what he's up against and allow him to escape with the probe...curious to see how he would adjust his build upon scouting what he's facing
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SC2 version of DT/Reaver drop. Neat.
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Where does the money for 3 nexus' come in using this build?
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On October 06 2013 04:55 bertu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. There is a lot of theorycraft going in that answer, vhapter. Do you have a vod/replay of this build holding a properly executed 10 or 11 gate? In my experience, the rushing player can attack through the photon overcharge and easily do game ending damage while scouting the DTs. This is why scouting early with the DT build help, you can at least get more gates earlier, maybe a zealot too. In my experience, you have to scout and deviate from the build to have a chance. This DT build was never meant to be super safe, it's OK to risk to lose to something horrible like an early gate 3-gate.
On October 06 2013 05:29 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. While the DT player will definitely get into some serious trouble if the rushing player unpowers his gateways, the DT player has the upper hand both defensively and offensively from 6:15-6:25 on, which is when DTs comes into play. You can buy time with the aid of photon overcharge, and after that you defend with dts while killing probes. The second gateway being delayed doesn't allow for both defense and delay, but you can still defend without a problem as long as you're able to warp in DTs. Photon Overcharge isn't that strong...by 5:22 you barely have any units and the other protoss player can sac some stalkers to kill your entire economy while getting detection back home 10g 3gate all-ins is a strong counter to this build but that's why Dear scouts after gas...that small timing window he bought to scout the opponent's base will help him determine what he's up against and allow him to escape with the probe...curious to see how he would adjust his build upon scouting what he's facing
This is definitely not theorycraft. I've been in this situation a couple of times. The first time I beat it was on the ladder, my opponent wanted to try again and whatnot, but our "rematch" was even more one sided. I've even played a couple of games against SC2John himself to test this, because I showed him how I beat this ladder guy. He thought I was supposed to lose at first, but we resumed from replay and he couldn't kill me or my economy right away.
The 10 gating player needs to cut down 225-300 minerals to get detection as soon as possible here. He may not even know you're doing this build. And if he doesn't know what you're doing, it will be definitely later than 5:30 once he does scout it. The window of time the rushing player has to get detection in this case is less than a minute, and you can easily build a pylon in his base once you realize he's doing a 10 gate.
As for "photon overcharge is too weak"... fighting through photon overcharge is a very bold move imo. I see no good reason for doing this unless you're desperate. The first wave of a 10 gate consists of 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. The DT player will have the dps of 4 stalkers against armored units, and 5 stalkers against zealots (assuming he has 2 stalkers + msc + photon overcharge).
^ Not factoring probe damage. The 10 gate player also needs to get detection and that ain't free.
Yeah, this sounds like a lot of theorycrafting at this point, doesn't it? I guess that's because I'm trying to make a point since I don't think I have a flawless replay around. Anyway, here's a pro level match of this very situation we're discussing:
Rain vs Trap on Frost - http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/c/2988312
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i love these notes(i really do) but i think you should be more clear with reactions. for example, you wouldn't do this if your opponent went stargate. all im saying is that you should say that you should do this strategy only if your opponent does *this*. in this instance, you should only do this strategy if your opponent expands with robo or your opponent is going robo. This isn't a good idea vs. blink, chargelot archon attack(debatable, of course), or stargate.
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I don't get the early twilight council right after Cyberneticscore. Is it intended it make it easily scoutable? Thre is no unit out at this timing...
Or did "Dear's" opponent not scout him in the replays ?
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On October 06 2013 10:20 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 04:55 bertu wrote:On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. There is a lot of theorycraft going in that answer, vhapter. Do you have a vod/replay of this build holding a properly executed 10 or 11 gate? In my experience, the rushing player can attack through the photon overcharge and easily do game ending damage while scouting the DTs. This is why scouting early with the DT build help, you can at least get more gates earlier, maybe a zealot too. In my experience, you have to scout and deviate from the build to have a chance. This DT build was never meant to be super safe, it's OK to risk to lose to something horrible like an early gate 3-gate. Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 05:29 .kv wrote:On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. While the DT player will definitely get into some serious trouble if the rushing player unpowers his gateways, the DT player has the upper hand both defensively and offensively from 6:15-6:25 on, which is when DTs comes into play. You can buy time with the aid of photon overcharge, and after that you defend with dts while killing probes. The second gateway being delayed doesn't allow for both defense and delay, but you can still defend without a problem as long as you're able to warp in DTs. Photon Overcharge isn't that strong...by 5:22 you barely have any units and the other protoss player can sac some stalkers to kill your entire economy while getting detection back home 10g 3gate all-ins is a strong counter to this build but that's why Dear scouts after gas...that small timing window he bought to scout the opponent's base will help him determine what he's up against and allow him to escape with the probe...curious to see how he would adjust his build upon scouting what he's facing This is definitely not theorycraft. I've been in this situation a couple of times. The first time I beat it was on the ladder, my opponent wanted to try again and whatnot, but our "rematch" was even more one sided. I've even played a couple of games against SC2John himself to test this, because I showed him how I beat this ladder guy. He thought I was supposed to lose at first, but we resumed from replay and he couldn't kill me or my economy right away. The 10 gating player needs to cut down 225-300 minerals to get detection as soon as possible here. He may not even know you're doing this build. And if he doesn't know what you're doing, it will be definitely later than 5:30 once he does scout it. The window of time the rushing player has to get detection in this case is less than a minute, and you can easily build a pylon in his base once you realize he's doing a 10 gate. As for "photon overcharge is too weak"... fighting through photon overcharge is a very bold move imo. I see no good reason for doing this unless you're desperate. The first wave of a 10 gate consists of 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. The DT player will have the dps of 4 stalkers against armored units, and 5 stalkers against zealots (assuming he has 2 stalkers + msc + photon overcharge). ^ Not factoring probe damage. The 10 gate player also needs to get detection and that ain't free. Yeah, this sounds like a lot of theorycrafting at this point, doesn't it? I guess that's because I'm trying to make a point since I don't think I have a flawless replay around. Anyway, here's a pro level match of this very situation we're discussing: Rain vs Trap on Frost - http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/c/2988312
yes pick a game where trap (the person who 10g 3g) decided to shoot buildings rather than kill rain...and a 10g 3g is an all-in...all-in is a desperate method to win the game which is why you would fight through the photon overcharge
theorycraft here...what happens when you lose all your probes but 8 and you rely on dts and go to his base to see a cannon...how do you expect to come back when you are so far behind in economy
stalkers have 160 total hp/shield and photon overcharge does 20 damage so it takes 8-9 (not sure if armor affects the damage) shots to kill a stalker...how many probes do you expect to keep alive? i would say about 8 probes or so would stay alive in this situation...now this number obviously varies because it's dependent on how the player reacts...does he/she make more units or stalls for dts? stalls for dts...more probes die...makes more units...probes die but not as much but you delay dts to come out b/c of income damage
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^ Look, Rain got DTs out pretty late and still won. But the fact of the matter is that Rain couldn't warp in any DTs until 7:05, and with the build I'm talking about you can have 2 DTs already warped in at 6:25 just fine. Even if you lose resources while defending, you can still make these 2 DTs without any delay as long as you delay your robo.
Now, that basically means the protoss player can have a DT in your mineral line at 6:30 if he builds a pylon inside your base + another one for defense. You need about 1:25 to get a forge + cannon. If you don't scout the twilight council early on, you won't have started a forge by 5:05 and most likely lose. If you do scout the twilight council early on, there's no way to be sure it's not blink... a forge is useless against blink and a poor choice against dts anyway - you can easily lose gateways that are outside photon cannon range, you may not be able to get another geyser depending on cannon placement, you'll still lose 1-2 offensive pylons to DTs at the very least, and it will be pretty much impossible to expand with a DT at your natural. If you get a robo, you waste a lot of gas to get an observer out (which means fewer stalkers), you lose offensive pylons, and you still need units in your base for defense anyway.
To be honest, I don't think a regular DT build is in a bad situation either. The 10 gate player will probably lose stuff before his first warp in round or at least take some damage, since he'll have just a zealot and a stalker trying to get a pylon up against 2 stalkers + a msc. He'll also take at least 15-20 seconds to actually scout the dark shrine, and the dt player may have a third stalker almost out to help. Still not looking good for the 10 gate player imo. It's also possible to get 2 gateways early on, but I don't remember how fast stalkers come ou with this build, so I won't talk about it (probably delays the second one, but gets the third one out earlier).
In any case, I don't think a 10 gate counters a good DT opening if the DT player knows what he's doing. So if you still think a 10 gate should come out ahead, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Very decent layout of his build. I'd like to try it, but there are many ways to counter this type of "sneaky" play.
On October 06 2013 15:40 Yuffie wrote:
I don't get the early twilight council right after Cyberneticscore. Is it intended it make it easily scoutable? Thre is no unit out at this timing...
Or did "Dear's" opponent not scout him in the replays ?
The pro players play according to the current meta, and in PvP it is rare that a player will scout out his opponent's position early because there usually isn't much to see in his base. They may of course send a probe around the edges of their base just to check for proxy pylons and such.
On October 06 2013 17:38 vhapter wrote:
In any case, I don't think a 10 gate counters a good DT opening if the DT player knows what he's doing. So if you still think a 10 gate should come out ahead, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I've been able to hold 10 gate builds with very quick DT's, so it is possible. You have to stall him as much as possible, and ideally you have to have an idea that it is coming. I usually just scout around at the 5 minute mark and that's how I see he is building pylons around my base.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups
I think this comment was intended for ShockSC2's video, which advocates a 1-gate expand using a probe/stalker/MSC scout to scout the map and react based on timestamps and non-indicators (i.e. you see no units walking across the map before 6:00, you know a 4-gate isn't incoming). For that build, yeah, 10-gate is pretty strong.
On October 06 2013 15:55 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 10:20 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 04:55 bertu wrote:On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. There is a lot of theorycraft going in that answer, vhapter. Do you have a vod/replay of this build holding a properly executed 10 or 11 gate? In my experience, the rushing player can attack through the photon overcharge and easily do game ending damage while scouting the DTs. This is why scouting early with the DT build help, you can at least get more gates earlier, maybe a zealot too. In my experience, you have to scout and deviate from the build to have a chance. This DT build was never meant to be super safe, it's OK to risk to lose to something horrible like an early gate 3-gate. On October 06 2013 05:29 .kv wrote:On October 06 2013 01:51 vhapter wrote:On October 06 2013 00:02 -HuShang- wrote:Really good video but it's not exactly bulletproof . An 11 gate -> 5:22 3 gate definitely kills this build. I play this build a lot too but it isn't some magical build. That being said you're video is really good and I think this will help a lot of sub diamonds and low masters players to really see what they should be doing, not just in pvp, but in all matchups No warp gate rush is supposed to ouright kill this build. While the DT player will definitely get into some serious trouble if the rushing player unpowers his gateways, the DT player has the upper hand both defensively and offensively from 6:15-6:25 on, which is when DTs comes into play. You can buy time with the aid of photon overcharge, and after that you defend with dts while killing probes. The second gateway being delayed doesn't allow for both defense and delay, but you can still defend without a problem as long as you're able to warp in DTs. Photon Overcharge isn't that strong...by 5:22 you barely have any units and the other protoss player can sac some stalkers to kill your entire economy while getting detection back home 10g 3gate all-ins is a strong counter to this build but that's why Dear scouts after gas...that small timing window he bought to scout the opponent's base will help him determine what he's up against and allow him to escape with the probe...curious to see how he would adjust his build upon scouting what he's facing This is definitely not theorycraft. I've been in this situation a couple of times. The first time I beat it was on the ladder, my opponent wanted to try again and whatnot, but our "rematch" was even more one sided. I've even played a couple of games against SC2John himself to test this, because I showed him how I beat this ladder guy. He thought I was supposed to lose at first, but we resumed from replay and he couldn't kill me or my economy right away. The 10 gating player needs to cut down 225-300 minerals to get detection as soon as possible here. He may not even know you're doing this build. And if he doesn't know what you're doing, it will be definitely later than 5:30 once he does scout it. The window of time the rushing player has to get detection in this case is less than a minute, and you can easily build a pylon in his base once you realize he's doing a 10 gate. As for "photon overcharge is too weak"... fighting through photon overcharge is a very bold move imo. I see no good reason for doing this unless you're desperate. The first wave of a 10 gate consists of 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. The DT player will have the dps of 4 stalkers against armored units, and 5 stalkers against zealots (assuming he has 2 stalkers + msc + photon overcharge). ^ Not factoring probe damage. The 10 gate player also needs to get detection and that ain't free. Yeah, this sounds like a lot of theorycrafting at this point, doesn't it? I guess that's because I'm trying to make a point since I don't think I have a flawless replay around. Anyway, here's a pro level match of this very situation we're discussing: Rain vs Trap on Frost - http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/c/2988312 yes pick a game where trap (the person who 10g 3g) decided to shoot buildings rather than kill rain...and a 10g 3g is an all-in...all-in is a desperate method to win the game which is why you would fight through the photon overcharge theorycraft here...what happens when you lose all your probes but 8 and you rely on dts and go to his base to see a cannon...how do you expect to come back when you are so far behind in economy stalkers have 160 total hp/shield and photon overcharge does 20 damage so it takes 8-9 (not sure if armor affects the damage) shots to kill a stalker...how many probes do you expect to keep alive? i would say about 8 probes or so would stay alive in this situation...now this number obviously varies because it's dependent on how the player reacts...does he/she make more units or stalls for dts? stalls for dts...more probes die...makes more units...probes die but not as much but you delay dts to come out b/c of income damage
Doing a DT rush is quite strong against a 10-gate warpgate rush. It may not be readily apparent, even in that replay, but there's just not enough time for the 10-gating player to get detection in their base up (if they even scout the dark shrine at all). Best case scenario is they pull probes and proxy a robo for detection. Even if they kill most of your economy, you'll still be "8 probes" mining against none, which is an advantage. But it's unlikely even that will happen if they try to fight through nexus cannon. It's very possible to hold a 10-gate with this build.
That said, if you don't feel comfortable holding a 10-gate like that, you can always just reactively go 2-gate. This build sends a scout early enough to respond appropriately. Piece of cake.
On October 06 2013 14:08 aldochillbro wrote:
i love these notes(i really do) but i think you should be more clear with reactions. for example, you wouldn't do this if your opponent went stargate. all im saying is that you should say that you should do this strategy only if your opponent does *this*. in this instance, you should only do this strategy if your opponent expands with robo or your opponent is going robo. This isn't a good idea vs. blink, chargelot archon attack(debatable, of course), or stargate.
Okay, yeah, sure. To be honest, DTs are good against everything. The WORST CASE scenario is a robo expand, while the best case scenario is 3-gate blink with no detection. DTs can even exploit stargate play by running around the oracle and making life difficult. As far as immortal drops go, they are explicitly designed to punish non stalker-heavy openings, as I mentioned. This means that it works well against DTs and robo expands while obviously being a fairly huge mistake against blink and stargate.
On October 06 2013 15:40 Yuffie wrote:
I don't get the early twilight council right after Cyberneticscore. Is it intended it make it easily scoutable? Thre is no unit out at this timing...
Or did "Dear's" opponent not scout him in the replays ?
You can build the twilight council immediately and let your opponent see it. If your opponent scouts it, he can't tell for sure if it's blink or DTs unless he does some kind of aggressive build that allows him to poke into your main early. Also, DT tech forces detection out and can really screw up some timings for your opponent, so it's never a bad tech choice.
Reference: Day9 Daily: First vs. Rain
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I absolutely love this build. I highly recommend this to any protoss trying to have safe macro games in pvp. I have used this build almost exclusively on ladder all last season.
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EPT
