EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 334
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On March 16 2015 21:32 Xinzoe wrote: Hi guys im trying to learn how to hold off 14/14 speedling with nexus first gate. Someone told me to scout after nexus, 2nd pylon on lowground. Once i see its 14/14 I don't mine gas, make forge as walloff + chronoboost zealot. Then complete walloff with another pylon + cybercore and start mining gas again. Is this correct? the best description of how to do it, that I've seen is from Shock He doesnt post too much but he is a part of tl strat and makes his own content as well. This video is linked to nex first then gate vs speedling. | ||
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SpikyRecon
Italy1 Post
On March 14 2015 06:10 KingAlphard wrote: At high level ladder, blink is the most common opening. The blink opening is extremely all-around and it can get you ahead against almost anything provided you have an excellent decision making and micro, but this is usually not the case in lower leagues. Hey, may I ask what kind of opening are you talking about? I haven't played in a while now, I don't really know what's popular today. How does this opening work? Thanks. | ||
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Roadog
Canada1670 Posts
Can someone link to good VODs/replays of it? What are some important notes/tips on executing the attack? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Any rought numbers regarding probe losses and defense tips? | ||
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James123
France34 Posts
On March 18 2015 08:56 Roadog wrote: About the Immortal all-in on Expedition Lost PvT: Can someone link to good VODs/replays of it? What are some important notes/tips on executing the attack? If you mean the proxy robo build to go through the back rocks, I guess Zest vs Flash IEM Season IX - Toronto Final (the game on King Sejong Station) is a good exemple of what you want to do. If you mean immortal burst, then the most recent one I can remember was Zest vs MKP at GSL Hot6ix Cup Main Tournament on Overgrowth. Hope it helps you  | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On March 18 2015 11:02 vhapter wrote: I'm wondering what the best way to react to hellions is. Like, sometimes the terran sends 2 hellions to your base, sometimes 4 hellions, or even 6. I'm not sure how many probes is ok to lose in each of these situations... kind of hard to evaluate my defense unless I lose a ton of probes and it's obviously a horrible trade. Any rought numbers regarding probe losses and defense tips? Im starting to think putting one pylon near the ramp (the third one) is really useful if you scout gas and no reaper comes into the base. Then you can put your robo there to make a semi wall off and put a stalker in it to block hellions from reachign the main. If you your first obs along the attack path you should see super late lots of hellion attacks before they hit you. If you control the map with your first stalker (in no reaper scenarios) then you can see if its the fast 2/4 hellions before they come pull probes block the hole. Once you get 3 gates up its really easy to trade effectively against the hellions while splitting probes and teching up. Its important to not put down the support bay until you know they arent going mech/tanks. You dont want to spend 200/200 for collossus if they arent going bio. This all being said, I still struggle with it, and it doesnt happen to me often, but I read the tip about the pylon and robo positioning and it helps a TON. Some players will do 2 pylons at the top of the ramp but this puts you into a crazy supply cap count and the 100 minerals are better spent elsewhere. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On March 17 2015 16:35 SpikyRecon wrote: Hey, may I ask what kind of opening are you talking about? I haven't played in a while now, I don't really know what's popular today. How does this opening work? Thanks. The build order is this, with small adjustments that each player can make... 13 gate 15 2x gas (2 probes each), last chronoboost on probes (3 total) 17 pylon 18 core (saturate your gases) @100% core: Stalker, warpgate, mothership core, pylon (in this order). Chronoboost mothership core and warpgate. Twilight council once your msc is out and you scared away any enemy probe; 2nd stalker 29/34 +2 gateways, blink immediately after. 31/34 3rd stalker, robo (stalker first is important vs oracle, robo first against DTs), proxy pylon. How it works: you need to scout your enemy base with a probe before ranged units are out (it's not important to scout before that point). Your goal is to see if he went 10 gate into 3 gate, whether he opened 1 gate or 2 gate, if he took a very fast tech, if there are missing pylons, and how much gas he has mined. If he went for a "passive" opening (1 gate, no crazy fast warpgate, no missing pylons) then you should scout with your msc. Otherwise you can rely on your first stalker and the scouting probe. With the mothership core scout your goal is to see what tech he is going for. If he is going oracle then you should chrono out the 3rd stalker in order to defend without overcharge. If he is going DT you should get a fast robo. If he doesn't have a twilight in general you should skip the robo for a while. Then it depends on you, there is a lot of situations where you can both expand or go all in. Remember to use your warpgates all the time until both players expand. You only have 3 so you can't afford to miss warp ins if you want to play aggressive or defend from attacks. | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On March 18 2015 23:46 Teoita wrote: It's kind of annoying later on for units to go up and down your main ramp, so personally i'd only do pylon+2 stalkers instead Two regular stalkers on hold position(in the middle of the ramp) block the ramp from dark templar, so i imagine 2 stalkers would block hellions as well. On March 18 2015 11:02 vhapter wrote: I'm wondering what the best way to react to hellions is. Like, sometimes the terran sends 2 hellions to your base, sometimes 4 hellions, or even 6. I'm not sure how many probes is ok to lose in each of these situations... kind of hard to evaluate my defense unless I lose a ton of probes and it's obviously a horrible trade. Any rought numbers regarding probe losses and defense tips? What I thought was a more interesting way of fending off multiple hellion aggression is building placement. I think if you place your third or fourth pylon by your natural nexus and wall off one side with gateways, it makes it so that you don't need to pull probes when 4 or more hellions attack because they have only 1 way to go to get to the probes; through your units. Im not exactly sure on the hellion timings, but in this game trap could have had his gateways started as early as 6:25 if he didn't go natural gas before gates. So, If i was playing the matchup, I would go with a 1 gate fast expand, cybernetics core scout for proxy and place the nexus @ 20 supply if no proxy, place the third pylon by nexus and then scout the long way to avoid a reaper. I'd go robo after for obs in case of widow mine drop; And after the robo i would add 2 gates @ the natural to wall off one side of the nexus => natural gas. This for sure won't finish in time for 2 initial hellions, but at that point we should have a MSC and stalker out; so hopefully we don't lose more than 4 probes (which would be in my opinion an even trade for T). | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
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James123
France34 Posts
On March 21 2015 19:43 Daimai wrote: Who are the most solid protoss macro players nowadays? Preferably those with a lot of replays to study! Zest run at IEM Championship is definitely the best to study right now. Replay pack is available and super recent. | ||
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barbaTossa
23 Posts
I also watched Drogos PvZ guide and decided it's time for me to try some sentry heavy play again (after I dropped it because of terrible forcefields). Turns out my forcefields are still pretty terrible. Long story short: how do I keep this from happening? :D Well, not exactly. Professionals do kind of a forcefield flower when caught vs speedlings on open field where all the sentries are pushed into a tight space in the center but can still attack. Is there some trick to pull this off reliably or just practice, practice, practice? | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On March 24 2015 06:18 barbaTossa wrote: How do I micro my MSC vs a Reaper? When I watch professionals it's like their MSC could shoot while moving. How can I achieve this? select msc, attack move command on the reaper, click ground (in reaper's direction), attack move command on reaper, click ground, repeat basically what happens is, when msc shoots, it starts decelerating, so you immediately click ground after projectile goes off to accelerate it again. this makes it seem like its move shotting. same goes for vikings i think | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
More and more i'm seeing pro's stay on gateway tech for a long time. I often see 3 gates + robo, 3rd, 4 more gates and stay on stalker sentry with a splash of immortals even if they see hydralisk tech. sometimes i don't see a single collosus until 14-15 mins. Why is this the case? Surely if you see hydras you want to get some collosus? alternatively if zerg is passive why do they choose not to tech and rather just make 1000000 stalkers? In one of Zest games against Hydra at IEM, he opens 1 oracle and still into tons of stalkers with no tech against hydras. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On March 24 2015 09:40 Dracover wrote: P v Z question More and more i'm seeing pro's stay on gateway tech for a long time. I often see 3 gates + robo, 3rd, 4 more gates and stay on stalker sentry with a splash of immortals even if they see hydralisk tech. sometimes i don't see a single collosus until 14-15 mins. Why is this the case? Surely if you see hydras you want to get some collosus? alternatively if zerg is passive why do they choose not to tech and rather just make 1000000 stalkers? In one of Zest games against Hydra at IEM, he opens 1 oracle and still into tons of stalkers with no tech against hydras. The quick third cant be taken while also teching to collossus while taking the third. So this means colo are delayed. After taking the third, you are weak to a timing with a lot of roaches and lings if your opponent just attacks and you are investing into tech too quickly (like the collossus) you could die. Now you could ignore things like blink and +2 attack and go quicker colossus but this makes you really weak to small pressure at the third into muta switches. The solution is the quick blink and +2 as places to put your gas. With good control and forcefield usage on most maps you can hold an attack from the zerg and then more slowly tech to collossus when you see that they are committing to hydralisks with hallucinated phoenix. Some players will even place a DT shrine before placing their support bay for collossus as well but thats a slightly stylistic choice and can also be a response to seeing a spire completed. Anyway back to the reasoning. The +2 blink stalkers allow you to maintain an upgrade lead against the zerg and also a very mobile attacking force. The goal of the stalkers is first to hold attacks. Second, the stalkers are also there for map control and to hit a timing depending on what the zerg is doing. If the zerg takes a fourth but doesnt attack you (pure drones all the time) you can take a 4th yourself while pressuring with the blink stalker and sentry force, keeping a mothership core around to recall. With good forcefields you can cancel the 4th and force units like roaches and hydralisks (as opposed to letting the zerg just be super greedy with pure drones and then teching to whatever he wants). If the zerg attacks, and you dont take many losses you can counter attack the zerg (assuming you still have 100 energy on the mama core) to force even more units than what they threw at your third to try and cancel or kill it. This prevents them from going straight to mutalisks, and if they are going mutalisks, you outright kill the zerg. If the zerg never attacks and just goes straight to muta - you will probably be able to kill them with a timing with just the blink stalkers. If they go middle of the road, or rush hive very quickly you should be able to see it coming and be ahead in upgrades which is very important against blinding cloud or viper pull timings off of 4 bases since they usually cut upgrades to hit with 1-1 and a couple vipers off of a fast hive. In both these cases you will have time to get a couple collossus out and then tech to high templar while taking a safe and defensible 4th thanks to your larger army. In the end, the +2 blink midgame off of a stargate is simply very flexible and provides good opportunities to control and dictate the flow of the game which is very important as if you leave zerg alone the entire time they will tech switch all game and kill you. You also get a lot of sentries, providing a lot of hallucination energy and the robo isn't always busy so you can squeeze out a warp prism for harass against swarm host styles. Hope this explains some of it! Of course, there are some variations to the mid game plan but the core idea is mobility and the opportunity to attack, force units, prevent tech switches and be able to defend in case of a large attack. For example game 7 of Life vs Parting, if it wasnt for the early build order loss (nex first vs quick pool) then i think parting would have held on and could have won the game. It was already quite close considering how many probes he lost and how behind his economy was so this should show the power of a strong 3 base economy supporting the mid game stalker army before transitioning into higher tech. | ||
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