EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 47
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 07 2013 09:02 Whatson wrote: I was watching Suppy's stream vs DeMuslim a while ago, and I noticed that he never ever moved out aggressively with his mutas on Daybreak, he always stayed on his side of the map even when he had a relatively large number. DeMuslim spent most of the game parking his forces on the wide northern ramp leading to Suppy's 4th, but even when they were stalemated Suppy never harassed DeMuslim's main base. Why is this? I think it would've been beneficial for him to harass the main, either forcing DeMu to move back or push ahead, and if DeMu pushed Suppy had infestors with energy ready Because mutas are mainly used to snipe medivacs and deal with drops and widow mines ^^. A lot of zergs are doing this not even trying to harass due to widow mines + turrets and also drop ships can be on the other side of the map and if you are taking out a turrent then drops can be hitting you elsewhere. | ||
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glad.
7 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On May 07 2013 09:02 Whatson wrote: I was watching Suppy's stream vs DeMuslim a while ago, and I noticed that he never ever moved out aggressively with his mutas on Daybreak, he always stayed on his side of the map even when he had a relatively large number. DeMuslim spent most of the game parking his forces on the wide northern ramp leading to Suppy's 4th, but even when they were stalemated Suppy never harassed DeMuslim's main base. Why is this? I think it would've been beneficial for him to harass the main, either forcing DeMu to move back or push ahead, and if DeMu pushed Suppy had infestors with energy ready If a Z sends all his mutas to the T's side of the map they are more inclined to send out multi drops. Zs that aren't going at least 20 mutas won't be able to do anything to turrets so most Z's end up playing purely defensive with them. There's also less warning time to react to drops on Daybreak than for example, cross map whirlwind so sending mutas to be aggressive can backfire very easily. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On May 07 2013 11:20 glad. wrote: Masters zerg here, question on ZvP: When do most players take their third against someone going gateway expand? I've been getting gas as soon as I scout that they're going gateway expand, but I still take a pretty quick third (like ~4:30-5min). Basically I take a third as soon as I see them put down a Nexus. But then when they do their early harass, it's really hard for me to gauge how much they're investing into it, so sometimes I take way too much damage. Or I build way too many lings. Should I delay my third a little bit to be safer? Is there a standard 3rd timing vs gateway first expands? Take it when you can defend it. 4 minute third hatch as standard play left with WoL. Figure out what the protoss is doing and take your third as soon as you feel safe. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
100 speed 100 att 150 cara 100 hive 150 bane speed I read somewhere here that it became standard to postpone both evo upgrades until after you get 12 mutas, air attack and a fully saturated 3rd? Using banes w/o +1 att does make me feel uneasy. | ||
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Kyuhyuck
Korea (South)40 Posts
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:11 Reki wrote: After scouting biomine buildings at 6mins, when do you guys usually get your evo upgrades? I realized that I've been losing to 8-9 min pushes because I've spent 650 gas on upgrades: 100 speed 100 att 150 cara 100 hive 150 bane speed I read somewhere here that it became standard to postpone both evo upgrades until after you get 12 mutas, air attack and a fully saturated 3rd? Using banes w/o +1 att does make me feel uneasy. from what i understand, you can hold 8-9 min pushes with roach/ling/banes. just get enough of them. no need to delay upgrades imo. | ||
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ThePiedPiper
Canada102 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:18 Kyuhyuck wrote: Anyone know a good hotkey setup that maximizes macro and micro efficiency? Really whatever feels comfortable with you will have the most efficieny | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:11 Reki wrote: After scouting biomine buildings at 6mins, when do you guys usually get your evo upgrades? I realized that I've been losing to 8-9 min pushes because I've spent 650 gas on upgrades: 100 speed 100 att 150 cara 100 hive 150 bane speed I read somewhere here that it became standard to postpone both evo upgrades until after you get 12 mutas, air attack and a fully saturated 3rd? Using banes w/o +1 att does make me feel uneasy. Terran can't do a strong 8 to 9 minute attack unless they are on one base. Anything that hits around this time should be easily defended with queens zerglings banelings and spines. I would start the upgrades just after you get all 4 gases in your main and natural running. If you are having trouble defending an 8 to 9 minute attack it's because you didn't scout that he wasn't being greedy and you tried to saturate your third instead of preparing to defend. Definitely don't wait until mutas to get upgrades going. That's to long. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:54 ThePiedPiper wrote: Really whatever feels comfortable with you will have the most efficieny no -_- this is so wrong. comfort =/= efficiency. in general: all hatches need to be hotkeyed, I prefer also having evos and spires hotkeyed with hatches. all queens should be hotkeyed - boxing queens is incredibly inefficient. and you need to have 3 army hotkeys at minimum. On May 09 2013 16:01 ManiacTheZealot wrote: Terran can't do a strong 8 to 9 minute attack unless they are on one base. Anything that hits around this time should be easily defended with queens zerglings banelings and spines. I would start the upgrades just after you get all 4 gases in your main and natural running. If you are having trouble defending an 8 to 9 minute attack it's because you didn't scout that he wasn't being greedy and you tried to saturate your third instead of preparing to defend. Definitely don't wait until mutas to get upgrades going. That's to long. this is not correct, T can make pushes like this on 2 base with 3 rax factory if they cut starport and have at most 1 ebay for +1 weapons. but really you should be scouting at like 6:30~6:45 with ovvies to see if they went rax or cc or not, then start spamming lings to prepare your defense. 2nd and 3rd raxes after 3rd cc can be added at like 7 min at the earliest? most people go 2 ebay into 2nd and 3rd rax, so their raxes start at like 8 minutes. @ Reki: delaying evo ups until 12 mutas and air attack is not standard at all. starting double evo ups before lair seems to be standard. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
PM me or respond to this on the thread if you can help me with this. Ill send you my skype after sop we can examine it and analyze. I dont want to post them here because Ill look bad. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On May 10 2013 06:54 KawaiiRice wrote: no -_- this is so wrong. comfort =/= efficiency. in general: all hatches need to be hotkeyed, I prefer also having evos and spires hotkeyed with hatches. all queens should be hotkeyed - boxing queens is incredibly inefficient. and you need to have 3 army hotkeys at minimum. this is not correct, T can make pushes like this on 2 base with 3 rax factory if they cut starport and have at most 1 ebay for +1 weapons. but really you should be scouting at like 6:30~6:45 with ovvies to see if they went rax or cc or not, then start spamming lings to prepare your defense. 2nd and 3rd raxes after 3rd cc can be added at like 7 min at the earliest? most people go 2 ebay into 2nd and 3rd rax, so their raxes start at like 8 minutes. @ Reki: delaying evo ups until 12 mutas and air attack is not standard at all. starting double evo ups before lair seems to be standard. I didn't say they couldn't attack. I said it wouldn't be strong. It relies on surprise. Which is why 3 cc is standard play. It's more reliable. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On May 10 2013 08:20 ManiacTheZealot wrote: I didn't say they couldn't attack. I said it wouldn't be strong. It relies on surprise. Which is why 3 cc is standard play. It's more reliable. Every early-mid game attack relies on surprise. Does not mean its not strong. Polt did the same two mara hellion builds once every series for months. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On May 10 2013 09:38 KawaiiRice wrote: Every early-mid game attack relies on surprise. Does not mean its not strong. Polt did the same two mara hellion builds once every series for months. I think we agree it's just semantics. But I do disagree with every early to mid game attack relying on surprise. The best example I can think of is the immortal sentry allin protoss used to do. You could know it was coming and still lose it was so strong on some maps. You had to play perfect. | ||
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RParks42
United States77 Posts
Now for my question, how effective do you think going a Ling/Infestor mid game against Terran would work if after making an initial set of 5-10 Infestors you went into Swarm Host production, threw down a Spire, went Corruptors for air support, then turtled until more Hive tech is out such as BL or Ultras. | ||
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Altairsc
Sweden4 Posts
Got a replay with a zerg who goes 1 gas 1 evo and slowly gets 1-1, i can hardly think it's general macro errors i'm making here. I am doing the standard ZvZ muta build in this game: http://drop.sc/333095 (I'm Decima) Would love some feedback on this, i never see any pro gamer zergs on streams who use this strategy. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On May 10 2013 11:59 RParks42 wrote: You say that the difference in your explanation is semantics, then go on to tell him how he is wrong by specifically pointing out one outlier build. How does that make sense at all? He is a pro, and telling the pros that graciously post in this thread that they're wrong is a good way to get them to not post in here anymore. Now for my question, how effective do you think going a Ling/Infestor mid game against Terran would work if after making an initial set of 5-10 Infestors you went into Swarm Host production, threw down a Spire, went Corruptors for air support, then turtled until more Hive tech is out such as BL or Ultras. you would die to a competent terran (let's say mid masters or higher) if they did a bio hellbat composition and went into multiple drops. this could potentially be easier to execute on small maps with less opportunities for T to drop around you (Daybreak, neo planet S if you have good creep), but a lot worse on most other maps. It should feel almost impossible to take a 4th base and you may trade really badly in midgame with only ling bane infestor and swarmhosts. It's also really difficult to have map control when you have no AA for so long. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On May 10 2013 11:59 RParks42 wrote: You say that the difference in your explanation is semantics, then go on to tell him how he is wrong by specifically pointing out one outlier build. How does that make sense at all? He is a pro, and telling the pros that graciously post in this thread that they're wrong is a good way to get them to not post in here anymore. Now for my question, how effective do you think going a Ling/Infestor mid game against Terran would work if after making an initial set of 5-10 Infestors you went into Swarm Host production, threw down a Spire, went Corruptors for air support, then turtled until more Hive tech is out such as BL or Ultras. Ling/infestor can be very effective. However you don't need that many infestors. I wouldn't even get pathogen glands. If you have 3 to 4 our around the 11 to 12 minute mark they are excellent defense against any bio push. Since they won't have a large amount of medivacs a few well placed fungals can end their aggression. They might not even have medivacs with their push because they could be trying to drop you at the same time. The huge range on fungal makes it so that the terran may not even see your infestor when you cast it. That makes it a big risk for them to walk onto creep. As far as the swarmhosts go. Bio handles swarmhosts in small numbers pretty well. Since you started with lings you're probably getting melee upgrades so your swarmhosts wouldn't benefit from that. And I think that the infestors alone should be all you need to transition into ultras. Broodlords is a different story. You might need something extra there I don't know. I like tech switching into broods from ultras as opposed to the other way around since viking/raven is really strong. It's better to catch the terran by surprise. | ||
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