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On May 04 2013 20:41 yollo wrote:I'd love some help in my Diamond ZvP. In WoL ZvP was my strongest MU, now I've not won a single game vs toss this season 0-15 or something. I've 70% win in my ZvZ and ZvT so that is why I stay Diamond. This is how it usually look: http://drop.sc/330504General gameplan vs toss: saturate 3 bases asap, survive midgame pushes with roach/hydra, tech Swarmhost and start pushing his 3rd. I outmacro my toss, maxout with 50 food faster than him and attack and get crushed and he just pushes and wins. I've been struggeling for weeks now, I'd love some help!
Ok, here is what I noted :
- You built Hydra before SH. Its ok since he started SG.
- Then you build SH. Good.
- And then you build roaches. WTF ?! You already have free roaches ! Its called locusts. In ZvP, you dont want roaches anymore. Only hydra & SH, and add ultra/vipers when your opponents is getting colossi. Roaches are only there to defend early 2 bases agressions.
- So you start attacking. Your army is very weak against him, because you dont have any vipers. So the 5 colossi are freely burning everything you have.
- Your SH are burrowed and totally innactive. You need to burrow/unburrow, stay active with them, launch a wave a move, launch a wave and move.
Here is a general ZvP engage :
- You launch a wave of locusts
- You amove your hydra/ultra
- You grab your opponent colossi in your hydra/ultra to get rid of them
- Generally, the winner of the fight is the protoss if he manages to feedback your vipers, and you if you managed to grab the colossi before being feedbacked.
You should watch Blade replays. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410269
Generally, you should say gg when you lose.
Hope it helps.
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Thanks for taking time to analyze that replay Insoleet!
Asked another master Z and he also told me to tech faster vs. passive toss. Or punish him with a roachflood after his stargate attack. Is that a viable option you'd say?
Thanks again 
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On May 04 2013 23:23 yollo wrote:Thanks for taking time to analyze that replay Insoleet! Asked another master Z and he also told me to tech faster vs. passive toss. Or punish him with a roachflood after his stargate attack. Is that a viable option you'd say? Thanks again
Well some protoss players have strange openings... It can be risky. At your level of play, i suppose it will work most of times because protoss are doing random openings, which are not really safe.
Against passive toss, you can drone more yep. It's more a question about how good you read the game. If you have a good game sense, you can take more risks and build more drones, tech faster before building an army. It's a matter of confidence i'd say
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Havnt played for a long time, what are the current metas, are mutas still viable in every matchup?
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hm maybe this has been asked before, but what to do against mass widowmines and bio?
Soooo haaaaaaard...anything works GREAT against this? Or just give advice, but i realy doubt sh is good against this...
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Hey guys, I have a question regarding when and how to grab gases. say your goal is to stay on two base for a little while and you want to fully saturate them and grab all 4 gas geysers, i play zerg btw. would you first get 16 in your main and than 16 in your natural and than grab all four geysers? i am lost in that i don't know the timing or order in when to grab gases. do you guys drone up to complete drone saturation on 2 bases so that when you grab your geysers, you dont have to rally the eggs to the extractors?
im not sure if im doing it wrong but when i want to grab gases it usually depends on how much larva i have and if i have enough for say 2 geysers i just rally the drone eggs to the extractors and leave it at that. but this also limits to how many geysers i can grab at one time. so do you players just drone up past 16 on each mineral line to get that extra little mineral boost until you grab your geysers? or would it take too long for that. i usually grab my first geyser pretty early to get speed and than take out from gas and only put them back on gas when speed is done to get lair and once i grab my lair i try to saturate my other 3 geysers before lair is finished but i find that i can only saturate 2 and than i have to wait for another spawn larva to pop, what do you guys think?
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On May 06 2013 00:08 Foxxan wrote:
hm maybe this has been asked before, but what to do against mass widowmines and bio?
Soooo haaaaaaard...anything works GREAT against this? Or just give advice, but i realy doubt sh is good against this...
Micro and take the time to defuse the mines staying on your creep (spore+spine or overseers)
But once you understand how to micro against mines, it's totally dealable.
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On May 06 2013 00:04 tehcaekftw wrote:
Havnt played for a long time, what are the current metas, are mutas still viable in every matchup?
ZvZ: Viable is the biggest understatement ever, they are the only strat viable.
ZvT: Yes, mutar/ling/bane is currently standard.
ZvP: Well, they are just as good as before, but phoenixes got buffed so no way against stargate.
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Protoss is broken, I've gone from 67% win last week to 23% this week.. My ZvZ and ZvT have stayed the same, but Protoss has dropped exponentially, please explain as I am this close to quitting now as it is back to the same it was in WoL no fun, Protoss just turtles up and wins. I am Master, Europe.
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Sorry for my ignorance but how is the current state of zvt regarding roach/hydra against muta/ling midgame playstyle? Would you advise someone to abandon the easier to use roach/hydra and instead keep on practicing muta/ling which was proven to be more effective on higher levels?
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On May 06 2013 07:24 Niacim wrote:
Protoss is broken, I've gone from 67% win last week to 23% this week.. My ZvZ and ZvT have stayed the same, but Protoss has dropped exponentially, please explain as I am this close to quitting now as it is back to the same it was in WoL no fun, Protoss just turtles up and wins. I am Master, Europe.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402752¤tpage=46#901
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Russian Federation81 Posts
On May 06 2013 14:15 Reki wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but how is the current state of zvt regarding roach/hydra against muta/ling midgame playstyle? Would you advise someone to abandon the easier to use roach/hydra and instead keep on practicing muta/ling which was proven to be more effective on higher levels?
Roach hydra is quite good versus terran who go blind MMMM because it basically makes mines completely useless. Later on though as terran starts adding tanks instead it starts getting worse. Also without mutalisks you are completely helpless against drops and a good terran will definitely abuse it. As a EU master I don't have any trouble playing ZvT with mutaling, in fact I'm pretty sure it would be much harder playing the matchup with roach hydra at this level. Plat and below though I suppose roach hydra is indeed easier to use, but only until your opponents start to learn how to multitask and drop you at several locations.
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On May 06 2013 14:15 Reki wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but how is the current state of zvt regarding roach/hydra against muta/ling midgame playstyle? Would you advise someone to abandon the easier to use roach/hydra and instead keep on practicing muta/ling which was proven to be more effective on higher levels?
Go with what you like the most. If you hate it you won't want to practice. I always go for non standard strats because it's the most entertaining way to play for me. If you make it to a level where your strat stops working then change it.
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Hi there,
Im looking for a nice 2 base burrowed roach pressure build for zvt. IIRC lucky did it in his 2nd game:
GOMTV VOD
Unfortunetaly I dont have access to it and can't really find anything good... I've been trying by myself but I can't really find something exciting.
Btw I know the timings might change a bit with the next patch, but I'd really like to see over a certain number of games how using early burrow can be.
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This one is mainly for Blade....
Do you see any possibility in transitioning from muta/ling into your ideal ZvP composition (sh, hydra, ultra, viper)? I love the map control and activity of mutas in ZvP in the mid game -- being annoying, picking off probes and pylons, expanding behind pressure, etc.; just wondering if you think it's viable to transition out of them into that endgame comp, or if the mutas are a waste of time in general and it makes more sense to put that gas directly into SH tech.
Gracias sir.
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On May 07 2013 04:19 IPA wrote:
This one is mainly for Blade....
Do you see any possibility in transitioning from muta/ling into your ideal ZvP composition (sh, hydra, ultra, viper)? I love the map control and activity of mutas in ZvP in the mid game -- being annoying, picking off probes and pylons, expanding behind pressure, etc.; just wondering if you think it's viable to transition out of them into that endgame comp, or if the mutas are a waste of time in general and it makes more sense to put that gas directly into SH tech.
Gracias sir.
As i play totally like Blade, I think i can give out my thoughts.
Muta before SH is very good if your opponent go robo without stargate. Don't build more than 18 muta, harass constantly with it while adding SH and going for vipers. Hydra are not a priority while you have mutalisks on the map.
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On May 07 2013 04:19 IPA wrote:
This one is mainly for Blade....
Do you see any possibility in transitioning from muta/ling into your ideal ZvP composition (sh, hydra, ultra, viper)? I love the map control and activity of mutas in ZvP in the mid game -- being annoying, picking off probes and pylons, expanding behind pressure, etc.; just wondering if you think it's viable to transition out of them into that endgame comp, or if the mutas are a waste of time in general and it makes more sense to put that gas directly into SH tech.
Gracias sir.
Muta are fine. Something I like to do when facing a non stargate protoss (so robo first which is so uncommon right now xD) is I will go mutalisks make about 14 then transition into swarmhost. I will get a hydra den but will not make hydralisks unless they start making stargate (mass phoenix, voidray, etc). If they never do that then it just goes sh/muta/ling/roach until hive then viper/swarmhost/ultra/ling and if you have surviving muta those to.
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Hey guys, I have a question regarding when and how to grab gases. say your goal is to stay on two base for a little while and you want to fully saturate them and grab all 4 gas geysers, i play zerg btw. would you first get 16 in your main and than 16 in your natural and than grab all four geysers? i am lost in that i don't know the timing or order in when to grab gases. do you guys drone up to complete drone saturation on 2 bases so that when you grab your geysers, you dont have to rally the eggs to the extractors?
im not sure if im doing it wrong but when i want to grab gases it usually depends on how much larva i have and if i have enough for say 2 geysers i just rally the drone eggs to the extractors and leave it at that. but this also limits to how many geysers i can grab at one time. so do you players just drone up past 16 on each mineral line to get that extra little mineral boost until you grab your geysers? or would it take too long for that. i usually grab my first geyser pretty early to get speed and than take out from gas and only put them back on gas when speed is done to get lair and once i grab my lair i try to saturate my other 3 geysers before lair is finished but i find that i can only saturate 2 and than i have to wait for another spawn larva to pop, what do you guys think?
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On May 07 2013 06:43 obis wrote:
Hey guys, I have a question regarding when and how to grab gases. say your goal is to stay on two base for a little while and you want to fully saturate them and grab all 4 gas geysers, i play zerg btw. would you first get 16 in your main and than 16 in your natural and than grab all four geysers? i am lost in that i don't know the timing or order in when to grab gases. do you guys drone up to complete drone saturation on 2 bases so that when you grab your geysers, you dont have to rally the eggs to the extractors?
im not sure if im doing it wrong but when i want to grab gases it usually depends on how much larva i have and if i have enough for say 2 geysers i just rally the drone eggs to the extractors and leave it at that. but this also limits to how many geysers i can grab at one time. so do you players just drone up past 16 on each mineral line to get that extra little mineral boost until you grab your geysers? or would it take too long for that. i usually grab my first geyser pretty early to get speed and than take out from gas and only put them back on gas when speed is done to get lair and once i grab my lair i try to saturate my other 3 geysers before lair is finished but i find that i can only saturate 2 and than i have to wait for another spawn larva to pop, what do you guys think?
There's no simple answer to your question. Because you want different amounts of gas at different times for different builds. And any early aggression can limit your larva for drones or kill drones forcing you to wait to take gas. You can also sacrifice mineral income for more gas income early in the game. A good example of this would be very fast 2 base muta builds. That's not really an answer but its the best I can do. My general advice would be to try to keep as close to 16 drones on minerals as you can while taking gas. Plan ahead though so you aren't gas starved when you want to start upgrades or mutalisks or whatever. Check your replays see what times you're ending up with to much of either gas or minerals. Play against a computer to test different timings for your build. Use the take command function of replays so you don't have to play through the parts you already have down. Try to take into account all the different factors and come up with the optimal time for your build.
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On May 07 2013 07:35 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 06:43 obis wrote:
Hey guys, I have a question regarding when and how to grab gases. say your goal is to stay on two base for a little while and you want to fully saturate them and grab all 4 gas geysers, i play zerg btw. would you first get 16 in your main and than 16 in your natural and than grab all four geysers? i am lost in that i don't know the timing or order in when to grab gases. do you guys drone up to complete drone saturation on 2 bases so that when you grab your geysers, you dont have to rally the eggs to the extractors?
im not sure if im doing it wrong but when i want to grab gases it usually depends on how much larva i have and if i have enough for say 2 geysers i just rally the drone eggs to the extractors and leave it at that. but this also limits to how many geysers i can grab at one time. so do you players just drone up past 16 on each mineral line to get that extra little mineral boost until you grab your geysers? or would it take too long for that. i usually grab my first geyser pretty early to get speed and than take out from gas and only put them back on gas when speed is done to get lair and once i grab my lair i try to saturate my other 3 geysers before lair is finished but i find that i can only saturate 2 and than i have to wait for another spawn larva to pop, what do you guys think? There's no simple answer to your question. Because you want different amounts of gas at different times for different builds. And any early aggression can limit your larva for drones or kill drones forcing you to wait to take gas. You can also sacrifice mineral income for more gas income early in the game. A good example of this would be very fast 2 base muta builds. That's not really an answer but its the best I can do. My general advice would be to try to keep as close to 16 drones on minerals as you can while taking gas. Plan ahead though so you aren't gas starved when you want to start upgrades or mutalisks or whatever. Check your replays see what times you're ending up with to much of either gas or minerals. Play against a computer to test different timings for your build. Use the take command function of replays so you don't have to play through the parts you already have down. Try to take into account all the different factors and come up with the optimal time for your build.
Wow, thank's so much for your post. it was very helpful, i never thought of using the new replay feature so i will give that a go in experimenting my builds.
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EPT
