EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 70
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
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Irre
United States646 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On May 05 2013 15:21 Irre wrote: What is the best way to hold a roach/ling 2 base timing? I am not sure if I want to call it all in, but it comes between 7:30-8:30 depending on how many roaches/lings usually. i normally play an extremely greedy style (CC first/rax-gas/reactor hellion/ 3rd CC and double engi bay). I usually can scout that SOME kind of 2 base attack is coming with my first 2 hellions, but I just don't have the production to hold. I wall in with depots and bunkers, but scv repair cannot deal against heavy roach. I know I obv need to find a safer build, or figure out a way to adjust my 3rd CC or 2 engi bay timing to get more production faster. What is the best option? I have thought about this, but I am not sure what to do. I was thinking of trying a scan timing before I drop the 2 engi bays, but I dont' know if the extra rax will finish in time to matter. Neither hellions or widow mines really seem to be all that effective against a large amount of early roaches. I have enjoyed a lot more success in my TvZ favoring this heavy econ/upgrade style, but I also have lost to all ins almost 100% of the time. I'd like to keep going with this style, but looking for some advice on how to adjust i guess. First, you're right about the scouting, note everything. Is he mining more gas than needed for just speed? Did he mine more that 100 gas but his pool isn't wiggling? How many drones does he have? etc. Be active with your first hellions and poke around, but don't them caught out. I don't know when you get a techlab on your rax in your build, but you want that asap after your reactor factory to be able to produce marauders with widow mines from your factory. Either that, or you can swap your factory and barracks and get tanks out. If you scout it early enough, cutting the ebays out of your build, swapping the factory and barracks to start tank production, and getting 2 more barracks earlier (don't really have to cut 3rd cc if you make ebays after you get more production up) is probably the best option. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On May 05 2013 04:25 iAmJeffReY wrote: Anyone else running that TvT 2 rax reaper that byun did to demuslim? I'm trying to get my timings down a bit tighter on it... All I know is 12 rax 12 gas 15 OC 1 marine -> @ 15 seconds of marine, make 2nd rax, after marine -> reactor + 2nd gas Gives you fast 3 reaper cycles, and still expands rather fast, and goes into bio quite well. It's 12 rax 13 gas reaper barracks reaper, then another 2 reapers when the 2nd rax completes. Expand when you have the money, and you can take a fast third as well as 7:00 double ebay if you feel safe. After all 4 reapers have completed add reactor and tech lab onto the raxes. | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
Just thinking with the current metagame where there is a lot of reliance on MsC for Protoss whether a push like this would be viable, focusing EMP on the MsC or just melt his army with them and pass the nexus at natural with the photon cannon and just go straight into main? Perhaps if you open 12rax, 15ref, OC then reactor at 50 gas so you have enough marines to deal with oracles something like this could work? I remember that this build started to decline due to poto getting faster colossus, but I guess these colossus are slightly delayed due to MsC? Just wondering if anyone has tried it or thinks it would be worth trying? Was my favourite timing in WoL  | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Ghosts are amazing but early on I think a zealot heavy army would pose a significant problem because of the lack of army size. Stalkers could pose a problem without Concussive or Stim+Medivacs due to kiting. EMP is fine but I think relying on having the MSC EMP'ed so it cannot Photon Overcharge is not a reliable option. Either Protoss could just keep it behind his natural or your Ghosts just don't get near it. It might still have some merit (I think a Sentry expand would likely die to it) but I fear that the lack of army size will be the main problem because Ghosts are just that expensive. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 05 2013 09:32 A Wild Sosd wrote: In a straight marine tank vs marine tank fight should I target tanks with Marines or just fight his marines. And what should I target with my tanks? Yes if they are exposed (out of position) and siegeing, otherwise generally no. Overall, target Marines, but focus Tanks if you see the Marines lines are not going to engage. On May 05 2013 11:41 Kid-Fox wrote: TvP: What is the response to a mass 8gate push from 2bases? I'm talking special tactics mass zealot/archon, I think right as 2-2 finishes for protoss. It's a very powerful strat, so should I counter with mass bunker? It's like I'm getting hit by a protoss truck, and I need to hit back with a bio wall of bricks. Walls, Bunkers, mass Marines, continuous Medivac production, Hellbats if you have an Armory ready. Don't bother with Ghosts (no time/resources usually). Don't make the same mistake Flash did against PartinG on Star Station standing on the way when Protoss moves out; ideally you want to counter with 2-3 drops so Protoss comes back (if he base trades then you unpower all his Gateways, lift your natural OC and take refuge behind your wall in the main the rest of your army holding the ramp, with Bunkers behind and SCVs on Hold position to shield when the wall collapses). On May 05 2013 12:10 iiAreJordan wrote: I just realized that the reason why players like Polt turn their screen by pressing delete, or a similar key(when they stream) is to spot observers. Can someone confirm this? Yes. On May 05 2013 13:36 GTPGlitch wrote: Is it worth it to invest in a handful of widowmines to sprinkle around the map in TvT for when your opponent goes aggressive? No. On May 05 2013 15:21 Irre wrote: What is the best way to hold a roach/ling 2 base timing? I am not sure if I want to call it all in, but it comes between 7:30-8:30 depending on how many roaches/lings usually. i normally play an extremely greedy style (CC first/rax-gas/reactor hellion/ 3rd CC and double engi bay). This is standard, not "extreme greed". You don't need earlier extra rax (which won't be ready in time if you go for a third before Hellions) or a scan to deal with those Roaches/Zergling pushes. Read the OP (Q. Is CC rax gas still very vulnerable to Roaches or Roaches/Zerglings pressure/all-in?) for the rest. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
I am a ravenlover.. I like ravenplay alot, as i believe some ravens in an army are beneficial in any matchup and can change the outcome of any battle after the 10minute mark, certainly since the hots changes. Also ravens require less micro then ghosts (or thats my experience). My question regards TvP and the use of some ravens to counter high templar/collosi/gateway army. High templar Range 9 sight 10 damage: 80 over 4 seconds Ravens Range 11 sight 11 damage: 100+splash after 5 seconds Ghost Range 10 sight 11 damage: Snipe 50 Just looking at the statistics, i would say that ravens could be more helpfull then ghosts. 1. Two starports with techlab are not more expensive then Ghostacademy with upgrades. And ravens do not require alot of research; 2. Ravens sight and range are better then of the templar and the ghost. They cant be damaged by collosi AoE or zealots; 3. U can kill every observer without scans; 4. U could use the HSM's as the protos uses storm or use them on templar. This means u dont counter templar but basically have your own templar, which damge is less kiteable then templarstorm; 5. Ravens can only be targetted by stalkers which can be countered by pdd 6. When on 3 bases or more it gives u the oppertunity to spend your gas and have more minerals for the bioarmy, which means u can max out faster after a battle. 7. Yes the templar has feedback, but the movement of the templar is very slow and there range/sight is less then of the raven. Therefore the HSM's should allready be launched when the templar would use feedback. In this way, feedback is useless as all the energy on the ravens is allready spend before feedback hits (and ravens have more health too)! Has anyone tried this economical ravens+bio+viking composition against protos and what are your experiences? | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On May 05 2013 21:04 govie wrote: Hi sc2peeps. I am a ravenlover.. I like ravenplay alot, as i believe some ravens in an army are beneficial in any matchup and can change the outcome of any battle after the 10minute mark, certainly since the hots changes. Also ravens require less micro then ghosts (or thats my experience). My question regards TvP and the use of some ravens to counter high templar/collosi/gateway army. High templar Range 9 sight 10 damage: 80 over 4 seconds Ravens Range 11 sight 11 damage: 100+splash after 5 seconds Ghost Range 10 sight 11 damage: Snipe 50 Just looking at the statistics, i would say that ravens could be more helpfull then ghosts. 1. Two starports with techlab are not more expensive then Ghostacademy with upgrades. And ravens do not require alot of research; 2. Ravens sight and range are better then of the templar and the ghost. They cant be damaged by collosi AoE or zealots; 3. U can kill every observer without scans; 4. U could use the HSM's as the protos uses storm or use them on templar. This means u dont counter templar but basically have your own templar, which damge is less kiteable then templarstorm; 5. Ravens can only be targetted by stalkers which can be countered by pdd 6. When on 3 bases or more it gives u the oppertunity to spend your gas and have more minerals for the bioarmy, which means u can max out faster after a battle. 7. Yes the templar has feedback, but the movement of the templar is very slow and there range/sight is less then of the raven. Therefore the HSM's should allready be launched when the templar would use feedback. In this way, feedback is useless as all the energy on the ravens is allready spend before feedback hits (and ravens have more health too)! Has anyone tried this economical ravens+bio+viking composition against protos and what are your experiences? While Ravens are good and useful, I don't think you can justify teching to them as a replacement for ghosts | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On May 05 2013 23:28 mau5mat wrote: While Ravens are good and useful, I don't think you can justify teching to them as a replacement for ghosts Give an argument (pro/cons) plz Dont forget the midgame could totally change and the trading of units aswell (because u can produce more units out of rax thx to mules and raven mineralcost is cheaper then ghosts, have hsm and P doesnt not have mapvision making drops more viable). | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On May 05 2013 13:36 GTPGlitch wrote: Is it worth it to invest in a handful of widowmines to sprinkle around the map in TvT for when your opponent goes aggressive? No, it is not, I've posted this before but I'll repeat myself WMs are a flexible solution to the Terran player, both in field deployment (active engagement) or tactical deployment (passive deployment) Because of it's high supply cost and ridiculously low dps, the window for passive engagements is likely for the first 10" of the game where you place WMs where the opponent MIGHT be versus active deployment where you place WMs where they WILL be. Thereafter it becomes increasing difficult to justify such tactical deployments, such as placing 4 WMs at every watch tower when each side has grown close to 200/200 army and 4+ mining bases. Thereafter, to continue to use WMs at this point is to use them in field deployments, bringing them with your main army to fulfil these roles: 1. Passive spotter, extend range of siege tanks, monitor expansions/supply routes/etc, 2. Thin red line, protect flanks, deter advancement, bait an engagement (trigger mines), etc 3. It's a trap!, preset a line of WM and have retreating army retreat into/past it to trigger Epic line by General Ackbar from Star Wars 6, | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On May 05 2013 23:56 govie wrote: Give an argument (pro/cons) plz Dont forget the midgame could totally change and the trading of units aswell (because u can produce more units out of rax thx to mules and raven mineralcost is cheaper then ghosts, have hsm and P doesnt not have mapvision making drops more viable). 1. reason: You need ghost as anti templar-unit, otherwise storm will completly destroy you. 2. reason: It forces you too build extra starports, so you can continue medivac production. 3. reason: Very gas expensive, needs atleast >3 bases. 4. reason: I believe you got the HSM-Range wrong. It should be 10, IIRC. I feel that ravens are more of a late late game unit in TvP. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 05 2013 17:09 kollin wrote: It's 12 rax 13 gas reaper barracks reaper, then another 2 reapers when the 2nd rax completes. Expand when you have the money, and you can take a fast third as well as 7:00 double ebay if you feel safe. After all 4 reapers have completed add reactor and tech lab onto the raxes. No, I know that. That's the 4 reaper build. This is NOT a 4 reaper build. It's cycles of 3. Marine -> reactor + 2nd rax. Then at 150 gas you make three reaper cycles. That one you explained is a fast 3 OC 4 reaper opening I like to use also. TvT 2 rax 4 reaper FE 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 OC 16 Reaper 16 Rax 16 Depot 18 Reaper 23 CC 25 TL + reactor + depot 26 CC in base Something along those lines. | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
Also, can i get a second factory against templar/twilight midgame toss and go for bio-mine/hellbat play in response after taking a faster third? I get that mines are not good when they have ranged colossi but is there another reason not to use them midgame vs charge/archon/temp/stalker toss? Also, when I engage I control click my marines to the back of my army so that storms or colossi shots don't melt my army, while my marines fire on the chargelots. Is this common? As a protoss main, I'll go more chargelot heavy vs marauders so i feel like having the marauders in front getting hit by chargelots might also not be that good. Also, TvT question. I open gas first cloak banshee and throw down my CC after I have 1 rax, 1 fact and 1 starport with a techlab. If I'm going to transition into marine tank, how to I transition out of this in terms of addons ? Usually I'll go for 3 total rax (2 reactor 1 tech) before starting medivacs and then get 1 fact (tech) and 1 starport (reactor) then get my ebays down. Is there a more optimal way to do this? Also, is gas first die to any openers? I bunker my mineral line if I scout 2 rax reaper and go for marines + mines or hellions before my banshee vs those openers. edit: re:ravens, how effective is PDD vs stalkers? If it blocks all the shots wouldn't having 1/2 per engagement be really useful? Like building 1 or 2 off your second starport then switch it to a reactor? | ||
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BaaL`
297 Posts
On May 06 2013 09:17 S7EFEN wrote: Vs twilight/storm from protoss in the midgame, adding in hellbats for added survivability vs storm and to tank chargelots is a good idea right? If I go along this path do i tech vehicle plating? Or weapons? Or do i tech vikings for the colossi switch? Also, can i get a second factory against templar/twilight midgame toss and go for bio-mine/hellbat play in response after taking a faster third? I get that mines are not good when they have ranged colossi but is there another reason not to use them midgame vs charge/archon/temp/stalker toss? Also, when I engage I control click my marines to the back of my army so that storms or colossi shots don't melt my army, while my marines fire on the chargelots. Is this common? As a protoss main, I'll go more chargelot heavy vs marauders so i feel like having the marauders in front getting hit by chargelots might also not be that good. Also, TvT question. I open gas first cloak banshee and throw down my CC after I have 1 rax, 1 fact and 1 starport with a techlab. If I'm going to transition into marine tank, how to I transition out of this in terms of addons ? Usually I'll go for 3 total rax (2 reactor 1 tech) before starting medivacs and then get 1 fact (tech) and 1 starport (reactor) then get my ebays down. Is there a more optimal way to do this? Also, is gas first die to any openers? I bunker my mineral line if I scout 2 rax reaper and go for marines + mines or hellions before my banshee vs those openers. edit: re:ravens, how effective is PDD vs stalkers? If it blocks all the shots wouldn't having 1/2 per engagement be really useful? Like building 1 or 2 off your second starport then switch it to a reactor? Hellbats are fine if you are up against zealot/archon. Plating is better in almost all situations, because it applies to vikings as well. Vehicle weapons is probably the rarest attack/armor upgrade, plating is just so much better. I would not recommend mines against chargelots at all. They will lock on to the first zealot that charges into your bio, and deal a massive amount of friendly fire. Just build hellbats if you have the factory. A second factory is probably not that great unless your opponent is really going crazy with the zealots. It's more usual to just move away your whole army from storm. If you only move the marines, the zealots still get to hit just like the whole rest of the protoss army, while your main dps source is walking instead of shooting. Obviously ghost vs templar is a lot more complicated than that, but moving only the marines is very uncommon. TvT question: as long as your CC is reasonably early, I think most things are fine. 3 barracks (reactor reactor lab) factory (lab) starport (reactor) is the most common skeleton for marine/tank, so as long as you get that up fast all should be fine. Gas first certainly does not automatically lose to anything, especially with cloak banshee you should have plenty of marines. Even if your opponent is going all-out with a very strange build, your banshee should come out in time to save the day. Yes ravens are good, but the cost both starport time and loads of gas. Medivacs are simply better, you can train 2 of them off 1 starport for the same gas as 1 raven. PDD is okay against stalkers, but they fire 2 shots (costs double the energy) and they don't hit that hard anyway. It's the colossus/storm or even zealots that kill you, not the stalkers in a standard engagement. | ||
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Sodah
3 Posts
In WoL, I mostly did thorzain's TvT build. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On May 06 2013 04:11 Paljas wrote: 1. reason: You need ghost as anti templar-unit, otherwise storm will completly destroy you. 2. reason: It forces you too build extra starports, so you can continue medivac production. 3. reason: Very gas expensive, needs atleast >3 bases. 4. reason: I believe you got the HSM-Range wrong. It should be 10, IIRC. I feel that ravens are more of a late late game unit in TvP. 1. U can kite storm. And after hsm's hit.. storm alone wont save his army. 2. indeed, 2 more starports after 3rd and/or 4th as explained. But ghostacademy is expensive too. 3. Allready stated that 4. Indeed liquipedia says 10, but range and sight is still better then stormrange/sight. 5. After u take and saturate your 3rd, indeed late game. But ghosts normally come after 3rd base too. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On May 06 2013 10:28 DemigodcelpH wrote: So what's the process for getting content added to the main post? Can we get some content on mech compositions and play in non-mirror matchups? Well, I suppose we could if it was actually that common. Before you all jump down my throat, I know we saw a large sample of games at WCS EU Qualifiers where people like Strelok were going Tank/Hellbat mech versus Protoss. Also we have seen a few games at GSL level with mech. However, overall, the viability and sustainability of mech has not been tested extensively in HotS due to the micro-intensive tools of the speed Medivacs giving bio a nice, flashy edge. I think we're still better off waiting until some high-level Korean pro like MVP comes out with a mech build that actually does consistently well against high-level Zergs (remember in early 2012 when MVP wrecked face at IEM with his Hellion/Banshee 3CC mech style and basically revolutionized that matchup overnight?). | ||
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Yusei
Canada27 Posts
On May 06 2013 10:15 govie wrote: 1. U can kite storm. And after hsm's hit.. storm alone wont save his army. 2. indeed, 2 more starports after 3rd and/or 4th as explained. But ghostacademy is expensive too. 3. Allready stated that 4. Indeed liquipedia says 10, but range and sight is still better then stormrange/sight. 5. After u take and saturate your 3rd, indeed late game. But ghosts normally come after 3rd base too. I'm as much of a Raven lover as anyone else, I use them in TvZ and TvT all the time, but unless you open Banshees (in which case you can sometimes squeeze one out), I don't think it's a good idea to build them in the later stages of TvP. The biggest concerns are the extra Starports and the synergy. The extra Starports need to have Tech-labs to produce Ravens which means if you are in desperate need for Vikings or Medivacs, it'll be a lot slower. It's like having to rebuild observers as Protoss, it takes away Collosi building time. Also you can't be buliding Ravens and Vikings at the same time as effectively as Vikings and Ghosts due to them coming from the same building. Also, Ravens don't mix into the bio-ball as effectively as ghosts do cause of the movement speed differences. How many times have you been kiting zealots, only have to have the medivacs lag behind and get killed? I'm talking WoL, this is fixed in HoTS thankfully. However Ravens will still lag behind. Ghosts on the other hand can at least cloak and do some decent damage to Zealots. So yeah, PDDs and Seeker missiles are cool, but Ravens eat production time and are generally not worth it to stop a few stalker shots. TL;DR You can't build Ravens and Vikings at the same time, but you can build Ravens and Ghosts at the same time. After an engagement, Ravens get caught and are essentially sitting ducks. | ||
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