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On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Then you have to lose like 4 drones while ur lings wait to pop out, then you lose infinite lings until your queens pop out, then you can lose your queen at one base before your 2nd queen pops out cuz he has 3 reapers.
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....?
it's not balanced at all yet
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When you guys do it do you just proxy the first barracks or both? Then you can use the second barracks to wall off with in your main if it's vs Z or build addons safely in case it doesn't outright kill them.
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Sounds fun. I think I'm gonna try this on the ladder right now. :D
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On February 20 2013 13:09 Grobyc wrote:
When you guys do it do you just proxy the first barracks or both? Then you can use the second barracks to wall off with in your main if it's vs Z or build addons safely in case it doesn't outright kill them.
Against zerg I only go 1 rax reaper, and I proxy. I haven't figured out the exact timings for finishing the wall off yet with that rush.
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Yeah against zerg just go 1 proxy rax and build bunkers with the scv that built the proxy rax. The way to beat this as zerg is to make 2-3 sunkens at the natural. Reapers don't do enough damage to kill them off fast enough. It also takes a very long time to kill the hatchery so you can stall for a long time while you build up queens/lings and then eventually bust the bunkers with queens/lings/sunkens.
This build was much stronger when Terran still needed a tech lab, and the reapers did more damage.
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On February 20 2013 17:11 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
Yeah against zerg just go 1 proxy rax and build bunkers with the scv that built the proxy rax. The way to beat this as zerg is to make 2-3 sunkens at the natural. Reapers don't do enough damage to kill them off fast enough. It also takes a very long time to kill the hatchery so you can stall for a long time while you build up queens/lings and then eventually bust the bunkers with queens/lings/sunkens.
This build was much stronger when Terran still needed a tech lab, and the reapers did more damage.
you're doing it wrong. you dont need to build bunkers, they only serve as a safe-place for the reapers while they heal.
you dont kill buildings with the reapers, you go straight after drones and queens once you have 3-4 reapers. zerg has to get speed out early because spines are too easily dodged.
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On February 20 2013 10:14 JustTray wrote:
Hmm...
From the HotS changes I knew reapers were coming back. This is a bit cheesier than I anticipated.
They heavily nerfed reaper combat abilities, but boosted how fast you can get them. Really they will only come back as form of cheese/gimmick unit. Well and they will be regulary used as scout, but besides that it is simply heavily nerfed.
Overall I like the new reaper strategies that will develop. I think it makes it more a rock,paper, scissors matchup in TvT compared to WoL where it was stale and one dimensional.
Are we playing the same game? TvT matchup is very dynamic in WoL, all this reaper stuff only makes it stale in HotS. I personally really prefer the WoL reaper, and yes I often use it in WoL TvT. When I scout my opponent not getting gas (and it is a 2p map/scouted him in first position) I always go reapers these days in TvT. Probably wont work at higher levels, but works fine for me at diamond level.
Anyway new cheeses always seem overpowered at first, however just give it a few weeks and then check again.
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On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....?
So he goes 8 proxy rax reaper, and you go hatch first, late pool, and think it's imbalanced when you take damage?
Even as a zerg player myself, I have a hard time seeing the blatant imbalance here.
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On February 20 2013 18:20 straycat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....? So he goes 8 proxy rax reaper, and you go hatch first, late pool, and think it's imbalanced when you take damage? Even as a zerg player myself, I have a hard time seeing the blatant imbalance here.
hatch first is standard, vs. a standard terran opener (1 rax expand, cc first, even a gas expand) you're behind in some form if you dont hatch first, whether it be economy, creep spread, or queen timings.
there's no way to tell how to go hatch first or pool first, and going pool first based on one build every zvt is unrealistic and not really an option.
late pool? 16 pool is pretty standard, although reaper openings have begun to force zergs to 15p or even 14p.
i have a hard time believing you play zerg.
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Does anyone think that making tech lab a requirement for the reaper would fix the balance or would it still be imba?
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Saw something like this in GSTL the other day I think.
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On February 20 2013 18:27 PulseKane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 18:20 straycat wrote:On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....? So he goes 8 proxy rax reaper, and you go hatch first, late pool, and think it's imbalanced when you take damage? Even as a zerg player myself, I have a hard time seeing the blatant imbalance here. hatch first is standard, vs. a standard terran opener (1 rax expand, cc first, even a gas expand) you're behind in some form if you dont hatch first, whether it be economy, creep spread, or queen timings. there's no way to tell how to go hatch first or pool first, and going pool first based on one build every zvt is unrealistic and not really an option. late pool? 16 pool is pretty standard, although reaper openings have begun to force zergs to 15p or even 14p. i have a hard time believing you play zerg.
On the other hand, maybe nerfing vZ builds that force pool first is solving the wrong problem. Maybe Zerg needs to be changed so that hatch first is a greedy, risky way to get ahead, rather than what's 'standard' and necessary to stay even.
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Sure, 15h16p vs 8raxproxy. Imbalancend as hell. Go drone scout.
In TvT its hard to hold, the safest way to find the proxy imo.
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lol pool first and get a bunker in the face!
Or maybe we can get early pool and cheese. Then again Reaper can kite them forever, then zerg build spine and we all wasted 10 minutes.
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On February 20 2013 18:28 houseurmusic wrote:
Does anyone think that making tech lab a requirement for the reaper would fix the balance or would it still be imba?
I will make reapers useless again probably. I hope blizzard does it though. I can't see TvT not suffering if blizzard doesn't.
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On February 20 2013 18:49 Breach_hu wrote:
Sure, 15h16p vs 8raxproxy. Imbalancend as hell. Go drone scout.
In TvT its hard to hold, the safest way to find the proxy imo.
You need to go hatch first or face bunker rushes. If you drone scout your pool is late which make 8/8 reaper and 11/11 marines stronger. If you go 14h/14p you are behind a 1 rax CC by far (at least in higher leagues). I dont think drone scouting is the perfect solution.
But I really hope that something changes compared to the dull old WoL builds. I always loved reapers.
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So go hatch first but drone scout. Problem solved. Overlord scouting comes too late to detect some proxy or cheese play. That does not mean these proxy attacks are OP. It just means that if Zerg want to be able to Hatch first they have to solve the scouting issue by getting an earlier scout of their opponents base.
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This strategy is very very strong in TvT, it basically requires players to dramatically change their scouting patterns. I am not liking it very much to be honest.
As for solutions, I am not sure how technically feasible it would be, but perhaps it would be possible to make it impossible to make reapers until you hit, say, 10 supply. What do you guys think?
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On February 20 2013 18:27 PulseKane wrote:
hatch first is standard, vs. a standard terran opener (1 rax expand, cc first, even a gas expand) you're behind in some form if you dont hatch first, whether it be economy, creep spread, or queen timings.
there's no way to tell how to go hatch first or pool first, and going pool first based on one build every zvt is unrealistic and not really an option.
late pool? 16 pool is pretty standard, although reaper openings have begun to force zergs to 15p or even 14p.
i have a hard time believing you play zerg.
Have you played much HOTS? What you say feels very WOL.
I agree with going pool first always is ofc unrealistic, but what do you mean no way to tell? On a ladder 2 player map a 12 drone scout arrives at the terran ramp at 15 supply. You'll get the info you need at the time you put down either pool or hatch. (Maybe going hatch first is still better, though, idk, but I sure wouldn't delay the pool any further). Or do you mean that a drone scout at 12 is prohibitively expensive?
I have to reiterate and clarify my main point though, which simply is that someone going 15h16p is not a very good example of reapers being very imba, neither if you think them imbalanced as a unit on its own, nor if you think them imbalanced in the metagame (because tbh I don't really see the irreparable economic damage in a drone scout). It's as if I played as protoss and went nexus first, maybe a gas, then forge and cannon, and lost to 6 pool, and thought 6 pool was imba, but really it was me going blind econ. ... sort of.... Sure, reapers might be imbalanced, in some way, but the game discussed is not an example of them being imba.
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On February 20 2013 10:27 fatalslaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 10:09 nebula. wrote:On February 20 2013 09:18 fatalslaughter wrote:
Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't. lol yeah it does. This is ridiculously fucking hard to defend as zerg. I managed to win against a player who did this just because his micro sucked that I was able to break down his wall with a counter-attack with speedlings (which shouldn't happen). Silver is a hell of a league. User was warned for this post
Add me in HotS. Nebula.982. gogo!
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EPT
