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So I have been doing double proxy reaper rax at 8 supply and I haven't lost with it yet... except to another kid that went 8 rax proxy reaper and turtled afterward. I am not a terribly skilled player, and my opponents are not uber skilled either, but so far it seems like a build that could break TvT.
The build order couldn't be any simpler:
8 depot
8 rax
8 refinery
8 rax
reaper @ first rax
scv
reapers and scvs constantly off two rax
Eventually you save up enough minerals to get an orbital command and expand, but it never gets that far.
How to use the reapers: Target units every chance you get. 1 reaper beats one marines, 3 reapers beats 4 or 5 marines with good micro. Even if you are out number, do some picking damage, retreat, heal, and do it again. If they build a bunker go around the bunker. If they split their units kill off one set of units and then roll over their base.
I think a terran that went blind 12/13 rax could have enough marines to hold off and get ahead on units, and then can build a bunker or to in the right places to zone out the reapers.
With this build I have beat 1 rax expand, 11 gas into fast hellions, and more economic reaper openings into tech lab and mauraders. Against all of these builds it wasn't really very close. 8/8 proxy reaper rush seems like a BO win against all of these on most maps.
I started this thread to generate some discussion about the build and what it means for the TvT matchup. It seems clear to me that this build hard counters a lot of other popular tvt build, both from HOTS and WOL. Even if the reaper player messes up and get surrounded and losses units carelessly, as the reaper rush player you can still just take out a handful of marines and 6 scvs here and there, double expand, and end up even or ahead. Weird as it sounds I have played games just like this. While I am having fun cheesing my terran brethren and getting free wins on the ladder, I am really curious as to what a more economically focused terran player could do to stop it.
A few replays. Including the game I lost to another proxy reaper player:
http://www.mediafire.com/?pk4l5r6x53154q1
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could you provide some replays? I'm interested in seeing this in action.
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definitely a PITA, however, I've found that with low reaper count the defenders job is to utilize workers and whatever units theyre producing from the rax to kill the reapers asap. This usually entails trapping the reaper or blocking it from exiting, effectively trying to predict or force a pathway, split the scvs, etc. I've successfully defended attacks like this going CC first. I've also found that the best way to fight reapers is to make some reapers 
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On February 20 2013 08:09 TheSwagger wrote:definitely a PITA, however, I've found that with low reaper count the defenders job is to utilize workers and whatever units theyre producing from the rax to kill the reapers asap. This usually entails trapping the reaper or blocking it from exiting, effectively trying to predict or force a pathway, split the scvs, etc. I've successfully defended attacks like this going CC first. I've also found that the best way to fight reapers is to make some reapers
Care to share some replays if you have them? I would like to point out that, in tvt, 8 rax reaper rushes are really a very different animal then 11 rax reaper pressures and other such more economic reaper openings. The first reaper is in your base by about 3:30. By 4 ish minutes there are three reapers out and it goes two at at time until one of the two players break.
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every terran is using this build right now.. pita i must say.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
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On February 20 2013 08:27 mau5mat wrote:
Is this MKP's doing?
He does it with 1 rax and then goes into hellbat drop
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T.O.P
469 Posts
how do you stop this i try to got for 1/1/1 but its to late.
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888!!! Best build
I really liked it in TvZ HotS until they nerfed the damage on reaper. Doesn't work anymore. Might still be good TvT though... I normally only did it TvZ.
Like you said you just kill as many workers as you can and then expand behind it. You can actually play somewhat normal games after opening with it.
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Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't.
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On February 20 2013 09:18 fatalslaughter wrote:
Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't.
It works against zerg. You need to build a bunker instead of a second rax and go 1 rax reaper. if the bunker goes up and you can kill off a lot of lings you can start taking out queens and it can snowball.
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On February 20 2013 09:18 fatalslaughter wrote:
Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't.
lol yeah it does. This is ridiculously fucking hard to defend as zerg. I managed to win against a player who did this just because his micro sucked that I was able to break down his wall with a counter-attack with speedlings (which shouldn't happen).
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Hmm...
From the HotS changes I knew reapers were coming back. This is a bit cheesier than I anticipated.
Can you proxy this build too? Or is that not necessary?
Overall I like the new reaper strategies that will develop. I think it makes it more a rock,paper, scissors matchup in TvT compared to WoL where it was stale and one dimensional.
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On February 20 2013 10:09 nebula. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 09:18 fatalslaughter wrote:
Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't. lol yeah it does. This is ridiculously fucking hard to defend as zerg. I managed to win against a player who did this just because his micro sucked that I was able to break down his wall with a counter-attack with speedlings (which shouldn't happen).
Silver is a hell of a league.
User was warned for this post
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On February 20 2013 10:27 fatalslaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 10:09 nebula. wrote:On February 20 2013 09:18 fatalslaughter wrote:
Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't. lol yeah it does. This is ridiculously fucking hard to defend as zerg. I managed to win against a player who did this just because his micro sucked that I was able to break down his wall with a counter-attack with speedlings (which shouldn't happen). Silver is a hell of a league.
Wow didn't realize pro zergs were silver level. Should probably know something about the game before spouting out false information. It's very powerful right now at high level of play.
It's incredibly popular that korean pro's do a ton.
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Scouting it in time is pretty hard on some maps. So I usually wall in one side of my Minerals and put a Bunker on the other side. If someone goes to heavy with Reapers I can just run over them.
Really like this Reaper stuff as it reduces the occurrence of greedy openings, which I personally dislike to do myself. Also fighting Reapers is fun, as you can let them in and trap them with a Building or a Racks positioned perfectly to build an Addon closing the only way out.
On the other hand TvT is my favorite matchup and now everyone fails with their cheese. Well not everyone ... this build is damn strong. We might end up with teclab again but reduced build time.
Feels a bit like fighting Dragoons just that these things can jump up cliffs, but just tickle buildings. Wonder if we will end up with anti Reaper Mains again, like we had in WoL for a time.
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On February 20 2013 08:09 TheSwagger wrote:definitely a PITA, however, I've found that with low reaper count the defenders job is to utilize workers and whatever units theyre producing from the rax to kill the reapers asap. This usually entails trapping the reaper or blocking it from exiting, effectively trying to predict or force a pathway, split the scvs, etc. I've successfully defended attacks like this going CC first. I've also found that the best way to fight reapers is to make some reapers
What is PITA?
Never mind
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Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Then you have to lose like 4 drones while ur lings wait to pop out, then you lose infinite lings until your queens pop out, then you can lose your queen at one base before your 2nd queen pops out cuz he has 3 reapers.
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....?
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On February 20 2013 08:27 mau5mat wrote:
Is this MKP's doing?
I've seen the build very early on in his match history's build orders. Wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the first to abuse the shit ouf of this ;D
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On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Then you have to lose like 4 drones while ur lings wait to pop out, then you lose infinite lings until your queens pop out, then you can lose your queen at one base before your 2nd queen pops out cuz he has 3 reapers.
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....?
it's not balanced at all yet
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When you guys do it do you just proxy the first barracks or both? Then you can use the second barracks to wall off with in your main if it's vs Z or build addons safely in case it doesn't outright kill them.
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Sounds fun. I think I'm gonna try this on the ladder right now. :D
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On February 20 2013 13:09 Grobyc wrote:
When you guys do it do you just proxy the first barracks or both? Then you can use the second barracks to wall off with in your main if it's vs Z or build addons safely in case it doesn't outright kill them.
Against zerg I only go 1 rax reaper, and I proxy. I haven't figured out the exact timings for finishing the wall off yet with that rush.
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Yeah against zerg just go 1 proxy rax and build bunkers with the scv that built the proxy rax. The way to beat this as zerg is to make 2-3 sunkens at the natural. Reapers don't do enough damage to kill them off fast enough. It also takes a very long time to kill the hatchery so you can stall for a long time while you build up queens/lings and then eventually bust the bunkers with queens/lings/sunkens.
This build was much stronger when Terran still needed a tech lab, and the reapers did more damage.
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On February 20 2013 17:11 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
Yeah against zerg just go 1 proxy rax and build bunkers with the scv that built the proxy rax. The way to beat this as zerg is to make 2-3 sunkens at the natural. Reapers don't do enough damage to kill them off fast enough. It also takes a very long time to kill the hatchery so you can stall for a long time while you build up queens/lings and then eventually bust the bunkers with queens/lings/sunkens.
This build was much stronger when Terran still needed a tech lab, and the reapers did more damage.
you're doing it wrong. you dont need to build bunkers, they only serve as a safe-place for the reapers while they heal.
you dont kill buildings with the reapers, you go straight after drones and queens once you have 3-4 reapers. zerg has to get speed out early because spines are too easily dodged.
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On February 20 2013 10:14 JustTray wrote:
Hmm...
From the HotS changes I knew reapers were coming back. This is a bit cheesier than I anticipated.
They heavily nerfed reaper combat abilities, but boosted how fast you can get them. Really they will only come back as form of cheese/gimmick unit. Well and they will be regulary used as scout, but besides that it is simply heavily nerfed.
Overall I like the new reaper strategies that will develop. I think it makes it more a rock,paper, scissors matchup in TvT compared to WoL where it was stale and one dimensional.
Are we playing the same game? TvT matchup is very dynamic in WoL, all this reaper stuff only makes it stale in HotS. I personally really prefer the WoL reaper, and yes I often use it in WoL TvT. When I scout my opponent not getting gas (and it is a 2p map/scouted him in first position) I always go reapers these days in TvT. Probably wont work at higher levels, but works fine for me at diamond level.
Anyway new cheeses always seem overpowered at first, however just give it a few weeks and then check again.
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On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....?
So he goes 8 proxy rax reaper, and you go hatch first, late pool, and think it's imbalanced when you take damage?
Even as a zerg player myself, I have a hard time seeing the blatant imbalance here.
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On February 20 2013 18:20 straycat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....? So he goes 8 proxy rax reaper, and you go hatch first, late pool, and think it's imbalanced when you take damage? Even as a zerg player myself, I have a hard time seeing the blatant imbalance here.
hatch first is standard, vs. a standard terran opener (1 rax expand, cc first, even a gas expand) you're behind in some form if you dont hatch first, whether it be economy, creep spread, or queen timings.
there's no way to tell how to go hatch first or pool first, and going pool first based on one build every zvt is unrealistic and not really an option.
late pool? 16 pool is pretty standard, although reaper openings have begun to force zergs to 15p or even 14p.
i have a hard time believing you play zerg.
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Does anyone think that making tech lab a requirement for the reaper would fix the balance or would it still be imba?
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Saw something like this in GSTL the other day I think.
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On February 20 2013 18:27 PulseKane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 18:20 straycat wrote:On February 20 2013 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Lol i just ran into this in ZvT... 15h16p ends up his first reaper gets to your base the second your pool pops out
Not so sure this is balanced yet... .....? So he goes 8 proxy rax reaper, and you go hatch first, late pool, and think it's imbalanced when you take damage? Even as a zerg player myself, I have a hard time seeing the blatant imbalance here. hatch first is standard, vs. a standard terran opener (1 rax expand, cc first, even a gas expand) you're behind in some form if you dont hatch first, whether it be economy, creep spread, or queen timings. there's no way to tell how to go hatch first or pool first, and going pool first based on one build every zvt is unrealistic and not really an option. late pool? 16 pool is pretty standard, although reaper openings have begun to force zergs to 15p or even 14p. i have a hard time believing you play zerg.
On the other hand, maybe nerfing vZ builds that force pool first is solving the wrong problem. Maybe Zerg needs to be changed so that hatch first is a greedy, risky way to get ahead, rather than what's 'standard' and necessary to stay even.
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Sure, 15h16p vs 8raxproxy. Imbalancend as hell. Go drone scout.
In TvT its hard to hold, the safest way to find the proxy imo.
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lol pool first and get a bunker in the face!
Or maybe we can get early pool and cheese. Then again Reaper can kite them forever, then zerg build spine and we all wasted 10 minutes.
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On February 20 2013 18:28 houseurmusic wrote:
Does anyone think that making tech lab a requirement for the reaper would fix the balance or would it still be imba?
I will make reapers useless again probably. I hope blizzard does it though. I can't see TvT not suffering if blizzard doesn't.
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On February 20 2013 18:49 Breach_hu wrote:
Sure, 15h16p vs 8raxproxy. Imbalancend as hell. Go drone scout.
In TvT its hard to hold, the safest way to find the proxy imo.
You need to go hatch first or face bunker rushes. If you drone scout your pool is late which make 8/8 reaper and 11/11 marines stronger. If you go 14h/14p you are behind a 1 rax CC by far (at least in higher leagues). I dont think drone scouting is the perfect solution.
But I really hope that something changes compared to the dull old WoL builds. I always loved reapers.
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So go hatch first but drone scout. Problem solved. Overlord scouting comes too late to detect some proxy or cheese play. That does not mean these proxy attacks are OP. It just means that if Zerg want to be able to Hatch first they have to solve the scouting issue by getting an earlier scout of their opponents base.
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This strategy is very very strong in TvT, it basically requires players to dramatically change their scouting patterns. I am not liking it very much to be honest.
As for solutions, I am not sure how technically feasible it would be, but perhaps it would be possible to make it impossible to make reapers until you hit, say, 10 supply. What do you guys think?
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On February 20 2013 18:27 PulseKane wrote:
hatch first is standard, vs. a standard terran opener (1 rax expand, cc first, even a gas expand) you're behind in some form if you dont hatch first, whether it be economy, creep spread, or queen timings.
there's no way to tell how to go hatch first or pool first, and going pool first based on one build every zvt is unrealistic and not really an option.
late pool? 16 pool is pretty standard, although reaper openings have begun to force zergs to 15p or even 14p.
i have a hard time believing you play zerg.
Have you played much HOTS? What you say feels very WOL.
I agree with going pool first always is ofc unrealistic, but what do you mean no way to tell? On a ladder 2 player map a 12 drone scout arrives at the terran ramp at 15 supply. You'll get the info you need at the time you put down either pool or hatch. (Maybe going hatch first is still better, though, idk, but I sure wouldn't delay the pool any further). Or do you mean that a drone scout at 12 is prohibitively expensive?
I have to reiterate and clarify my main point though, which simply is that someone going 15h16p is not a very good example of reapers being very imba, neither if you think them imbalanced as a unit on its own, nor if you think them imbalanced in the metagame (because tbh I don't really see the irreparable economic damage in a drone scout). It's as if I played as protoss and went nexus first, maybe a gas, then forge and cannon, and lost to 6 pool, and thought 6 pool was imba, but really it was me going blind econ. ... sort of.... Sure, reapers might be imbalanced, in some way, but the game discussed is not an example of them being imba.
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On February 20 2013 10:27 fatalslaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 10:09 nebula. wrote:On February 20 2013 09:18 fatalslaughter wrote:
Doesn't work against zerg. It simply doesn't. lol yeah it does. This is ridiculously fucking hard to defend as zerg. I managed to win against a player who did this just because his micro sucked that I was able to break down his wall with a counter-attack with speedlings (which shouldn't happen). Silver is a hell of a league. User was warned for this post
Add me in HotS. Nebula.982. gogo!
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Well, i really thought the new reaper is going to be even more useless than in WOL but these proxy reaper builds are really tough to deal with. I would like it if Blizzard stopped trying to make the reaper some kind of harass unit rather than just a resilient scouting unit. This would make it possible to give it a faster build time and make it more feasible to get a reaper while fast expanding.
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On February 20 2013 22:42 Baum wrote:
Well, i really thought the new reaper is going to be even more useless than in WOL but these proxy reaper builds are really tough to deal with. I would like it if Blizzard stopped trying to make the reaper some kind of harass unit rather than just a resilient scouting unit. This would make it possible to give it a faster build time and make it more feasible to get a reaper while fast expanding.
They already are a resilient scouting unit in HotS. Health buff + speed buff + regen = you shouldn't really lose your reaper if you use it as a scout.
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People are jumping into conclusions when current meta isn't still figured out.
That's right just nerf the reapers to the fucking ground again so Blizzard can make their 3rd shot with reapers in Legacy of the Void.
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@ZenithM That wasn't my point. I think in a straight up game the reaper is a too big investment in terms of building time and requiring you to build a refinery and mine 50 gas. If it was merely a scout rather than also a harassing unit the build time and cost could be reduced and terran would have a way of reliably scouting which Protoss all in is incoming. Maybe this is a bad idea but I would like it better than where we're at right now.
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Would this build work in TvP? 3:30 is a hell of an early timing. If proxy is not discovered and P skips Zealot, what can he do?
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protoss almost always gateway scouts u so then hes gonna turbo a stalker once he sees u got 3 scvs mining....
but u might still be able to kill the stalkers with reapers one at a time if you have good control.
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On February 20 2013 10:14 JustTray wrote:
Overall I like the new reaper strategies that will develop. I think it makes it more a rock,paper, scissors matchup in TvT compared to WoL where it was stale and one dimensional.
I love rock paper scissors! So many possibilities!
...
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On February 20 2013 23:54 horsepire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 10:14 JustTray wrote:
Overall I like the new reaper strategies that will develop. I think it makes it more a rock,paper, scissors matchup in TvT compared to WoL where it was stale and one dimensional. I love rock paper scissors! So many possibilities! ...
I think it's nice in a mirror matchup when there is plenty of openings, all somewhat good, and every opening has strengths and weaknesses and gets slightly countered by another build.
The early PvP / pre-queen patch ZvZ kind of rock paper scissors is bad though.
On February 20 2013 23:24 Baum wrote:
@ZenithM That wasn't my point. I think in a straight up game the reaper is a too big investment in terms of building time and requiring you to build a refinery and mine 50 gas. If it was merely a scout rather than also a harassing unit the build time and cost could be reduced and terran would have a way of reliably scouting which Protoss all in is incoming. Maybe this is a bad idea but I would like it better than where we're at right now.
I think you're right that if you just want a passive macro build with some scouting option, teching to reaper is too big of an investment. When I open with 1 reaper in WoL, I like to use that small early flow of gas to set up some specific timing that I couldn't do with a normal 1 rax CC. For example, I make my 1 reaper, I leave only 1 or 2 guys in gas, make a CC, 4 rax total, research combat shield, and hit a mass marines with cs timing. I think there might be similar small non all in or defensive timings with a reaper opening in HotS. For example, it's reasonably fast to tech to factory behind a reaper, depending on what you scout.
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On February 20 2013 23:36 ant-1 wrote:
Would this build work in TvP? 3:30 is a hell of an early timing. If proxy is not discovered and P skips Zealot, what can he do?
Chrono boost out the stalker. If they go nexus first they would lose. When i tried it against toss they always built the zealot, and then they got out a couple stalkers and it was very difficult to take them out. I have seen QXC do more economic reaper openings for harrass and edge out a lead with it, but I don't this rush is effective in the TvP matchup.
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On February 20 2013 17:14 PulseKane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 17:11 ThisIsJimmy wrote:
Yeah against zerg just go 1 proxy rax and build bunkers with the scv that built the proxy rax. The way to beat this as zerg is to make 2-3 sunkens at the natural. Reapers don't do enough damage to kill them off fast enough. It also takes a very long time to kill the hatchery so you can stall for a long time while you build up queens/lings and then eventually bust the bunkers with queens/lings/sunkens.
This build was much stronger when Terran still needed a tech lab, and the reapers did more damage. you're doing it wrong. you dont need to build bunkers, they only serve as a safe-place for the reapers while they heal. you dont kill buildings with the reapers, you go straight after drones and queens once you have 3-4 reapers. zerg has to get speed out early because spines are too easily dodged.
Hmm maybe you are right... I will look into this next time I play. Queens may be too hard to kill/get around though. + it takes 6 shots to kill a drone T_T
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I tryed it, 100% win rate with it atm. I just lost once because I forgot that reaper don't need tech lab anymore, I built a lab tech on each rax --'
I really wonder if there is viable way to counter it. My guess is :
Everybody is gonna do proxy reapers, then every body is gonna blind counter it with X economicaly shitty build. TvT is gonna develop around an economicaly shitty defensive build order !
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I have lost to 12 rax, 13 gas builds that get a tech lab immediately on the barrakcs, and go mauraders with concussive shells. If the defending terran can get out two mauraders with high hipoints the rush is over.
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On February 21 2013 23:40 algue wrote:
I tryed it, 100% win rate with it atm. I just lost once because I forgot that reaper don't need tech lab anymore, I built a lab tech on each rax --'
:/
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I always scout off of the 9 depot so I am usually aware of cheese. I know it can sound silly to think this way; whatever is indentified as "standard," in my opinion, is completely worthless because the only thing that matters is what is happening in the match you're playing in that exact moment. I think we all can agree that if you do meta-game builds and lose you cant be a Sour Sally about it. You threw the dice and crapped out.
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I saw TLO defend something like this (1st reaper arrived just as pool finished) yesterday with cute micro. Lost a grand total of 1 drone while queens were building. A combo of running away and morphing damaged drones to various buildings, all timely cancelled. Definitely no problem to defend for a pro. For the rest of us... dunno
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On February 22 2013 16:16 Grubbegrabbn wrote:I saw TLO defend something like this (1st reaper arrived just as pool finished) yesterday with cute micro. Lost a grand total of 1 drone while queens were building. A combo of running away and morphing damaged drones to various buildings, all timely cancelled. Definitely no problem to defend for a pro. For the rest of us... dunno
That sounds like a slightly late proxy reaper compared to what I have seen on Idra and other good Zergs streams.
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This is so so so fun to play.
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I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player....
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Reaper proxy is an extremely strong opening if done correctly. And with good macro behind it done correctly.
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On February 22 2013 20:31 Dvriel wrote:
I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player....
Cheese is a form of play, no different than a chess player who specialises in winning under 15 moves.
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On February 22 2013 20:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 20:31 Dvriel wrote:
I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player.... Cheese is a form of play, no different than a chess player who specialises in winning under 15 moves.
Sure,paying to a Referee is also part of the game in football and I suppose is OK. Anyways you wont tell me,cheese players are the proud of the community and we must heil them for their abilities... If you are MVP and in finals of GSL use some cheese BO to break the BO7 is ok,but using this in every single game in any kind of MU is....stupid
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On February 22 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 20:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 22 2013 20:31 Dvriel wrote:
I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player.... Cheese is a form of play, no different than a chess player who specialises in winning under 15 moves. Sure,paying to a Referee is also part of the game in football and I suppose is OK. Anyways you wont tell me,cheese players are the proud of the community and we must heil them for their abilities... If you are MVP and in finals of GSL use some cheese BO to break the BO7 is ok,but using this in every single game in any kind of MU is....stupid
the only thing stupid is your comparison here.
Your comparing cheating to a strategy you dont like, the equivalent of paying a referee would be maphacking, not cheesing, seriously wtf kinda comparison is that.
I bet you insult everyone on ladder that cheeses you...
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I tried this build on ladder a few times... didn't even proxy it, used the raxxws to block the ramp... still works wonders
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On February 22 2013 23:33 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 20:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 22 2013 20:31 Dvriel wrote:
I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player.... Cheese is a form of play, no different than a chess player who specialises in winning under 15 moves. Sure,paying to a Referee is also part of the game in football and I suppose is OK. Anyways you wont tell me,cheese players are the proud of the community and we must heil them for their abilities... If you are MVP and in finals of GSL use some cheese BO to break the BO7 is ok,but using this in every single game in any kind of MU is....stupid the only thing stupid is your comparison here. Your comparing cheating to a strategy you dont like, the equivalent of paying a referee would be maphacking, not cheesing, seriously wtf kinda comparison is that. I bet you insult everyone on ladder that cheeses you...
you can bet whatever you want.BM is not my way.I never insult cheese people.Just dont take them seriously.Its a stupid way to win a game if you are not in tournament.You dont learn anything.I suppose its just another way to lie yourself and believe you are "that good" hehe
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On February 24 2013 08:52 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:33 freewareplayer wrote:On February 22 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 20:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 22 2013 20:31 Dvriel wrote:
I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player.... Cheese is a form of play, no different than a chess player who specialises in winning under 15 moves. Sure,paying to a Referee is also part of the game in football and I suppose is OK. Anyways you wont tell me,cheese players are the proud of the community and we must heil them for their abilities... If you are MVP and in finals of GSL use some cheese BO to break the BO7 is ok,but using this in every single game in any kind of MU is....stupid the only thing stupid is your comparison here. Your comparing cheating to a strategy you dont like, the equivalent of paying a referee would be maphacking, not cheesing, seriously wtf kinda comparison is that. I bet you insult everyone on ladder that cheeses you... you can bet whatever you want.BM is not my way.I never insult cheese people.Just dont take them seriously.Its a stupid way to win a game if you are not in tournament.You dont learn anything.I suppose its just another way to lie yourself and believe you are "that good" hehe
I dont think that you dont learn anything if you are cheesing. You learn to Micro with small armys which can be really important in a mid game aswell. There is a reason why you defende one cheese probably well and another player does the same cheese but then you lose. Its execusen and i think its also important to practice something like that. I also cheese sometimes because i think my execusen of all ins isnt that good. And i wanna be an allround good player means Macro & Micro. Sure there are people out there cheesing all the time and i also think this is not a good way of playing the game. But deal with cheeses. If you get chessed and lose dont flame him or anything. He didnt won the game, YOU lost it because you werent able to defende it. Think about what you could do better next time. You need to learn to defend cheeses. Look at KR league they are cheesing so often but say GG, because they know they did something wrong.
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Just wondering - anyway to hold this TVT with scout after depot? even if I bunker my minerals its pretty tough as the reapers can just dodge it.
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On February 22 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 20:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 22 2013 20:31 Dvriel wrote:
I suppose the threadmaker is soo proud of his strategy...Playing TvT that cheesy is so dumb..Yesterday I lost vs this thing and saw even Avilo losing.He said,you need to scout the proxy and make bunkers,but when are you going to scout if he is going for 8/8/8???
Blizzard should be proud of this unit.Reaper still good only in TvT.Rest of the MU is a dead weight and totally useless.
mothergoose,enjoy your skill practicing this cheese,instead of learning the game and trying to be better macro player.... Cheese is a form of play, no different than a chess player who specialises in winning under 15 moves. Sure,paying to a Referee is also part of the game in football and I suppose is OK. Anyways you wont tell me,cheese players are the proud of the community and we must heil them for their abilities... If you are MVP and in finals of GSL use some cheese BO to break the BO7 is ok,but using this in every single game in any kind of MU is....stupid
I know they might sound the same to you... but
cheesing isn't cheating
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Ah, ofc... what kind of cheese guide is that if there's no flaming of the cheese/OP? God, those people who cheese on the ladder to learn new builds, new sets of skills or simply have fun are so awful...
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i feel like everyone is copying this build off me :D its really good against 15hatch 15pool zergs and all kinds off terrans, but you can hold it with proper drone/scv pulls
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How do you defend this 8/8 as terran? I've tried marauder after first marine but they can just escape and heal and then come back with more...
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On March 24 2013 09:19 GuiRao wrote:
How do you defend this 8/8 as terran? I've tried marauder after first marine but they can just escape and heal and then come back with more...
I'm having a hard time with these heavy reaper openings myself when trying to 1 rax FE or 15 gas fe.
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On March 24 2013 09:43 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 09:19 GuiRao wrote:
How do you defend this 8/8 as terran? I've tried marauder after first marine but they can just escape and heal and then come back with more... I'm having a hard time with these heavy reaper openings myself when trying to 1 rax FE or 15 gas fe.
But you are fe'ing, I do 13 ref and still don't know what to do. Make reapers too and make 2 bunkers on mineral line?
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Stopping this is as simple as marauder expanding. Theres other options but cc marauders are the simplest. It can be held with a bunker and marines but this is more micro intensive and you can still end up behind even if you hold the reapers.
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Seriously hate what the reaper change has done to the matchup... Now I 8/8/8/14(2nd rax) every TvT because even if people are expanding 90% of the time you still have to go through the reaper dance and i'd rather be the one that's doing the aggression and has a 50% chance of blindcountering whatever build my opponent has done.
WoL tvt was so much better >.>
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On March 24 2013 12:38 GTPGlitch wrote:
Seriously hate what the reaper change has done to the matchup... Now I 8/8/8/14(2nd rax) every TvT because even if people are expanding 90% of the time you still have to go through the reaper dance and i'd rather be the one that's doing the aggression and has a 50% chance of blindcountering whatever build my opponent has done.
WoL tvt was so much better >.>
Dude you gotta do it 8/8/8/9 (2nd rax) but seriously, marauders shut this down hard.
Also, as long as you can get a bunker started when the first reaper shows you can hold it with just marines marines from one barracks, assuming you put the bunker down someplace good and dont overreact with your scvs. Against one reaper I think its best to just let him shoot and pull 2 scvs to repair whats being shot, rather than pulling a huge chunk of scvs to try and trap him or something.
If you see the first reaper at 320 or so then the proxy is basically at your third so it doesnt hurt to slip an scv out to head to his nat with the intention of proxying something since he will have nothing in his base. This way if you wind up pinned in your base you can back stab his empty main and comfortably hold at home since reapers will not break a bunker being repaired.
If you wind up in a mirror match against another 888, you need to take your scvs and scatter them all over the map when the first reaper hits (if its 11/11 marines just run them to your opponents main), then prevent your opponent from doing the same. Neither of you will have many scvs, so the guy with the faster 2nd rax is going to have the edge.
I like the reaper, and I like this build because I enjoy it more when the game is basically a constant fight from the 3-4 minute mark. At first I thought they would nerf the reaper for sure because this was pretty effective, but now I have reconsidered. Even a total noob can hold if he just builds a marauder, its probably the simplest way to stop an 888.
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Couldn't a tight FE build counter this. Tight meaning. building everybuilding in the main to wall one way off to the minerallines? The reapers do not have any edge over marines in this way, except the heal. Im thinkin this could mean ur so far ahead economiccaly, because u just have to hold 1 entrance to the SCV's.
Edit : I made an example screenshot before 1 reaper hits your base. At this timeframe u have 1 marine out guarding the ramp.
![[image loading]](http://s21.postimg.org/oc39ap5dj/counterreaper_1rax_FE.jpg)
P.s. goldplayer, so dont flame at me for saying something stupid If its viable maybe a master could test it, if u can hold against the reaperstrategy in this way it will help noobs around the world. Plz do help us and be a hero without micro
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On March 24 2013 15:15 govie wrote:Couldn't a tight FE build counter this. Tight meaning. building everybuilding in the main to wall one way off to the minerallines? The reapers do not have any edge over marines in this way, except the heal. Im thinkin this could mean ur so far ahead economiccaly, because u just have to hold 1 entrance to the SCV's. Edit : I made an example screenshot before 1 reaper hits your base. At this timeframe u have 1 marine out guarding the ramp. P.s. goldplayer, so dont flame at me for saying something stupid
Tight building placement helps, your bunker can cover more
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On March 24 2013 15:15 govie wrote:Couldn't a tight FE build counter this. Tight meaning. building everybuilding in the main to wall one way off to the minerallines? The reapers do not have any edge over marines in this way, except the heal. Im thinkin this could mean ur so far ahead economiccaly, because u just have to hold 1 entrance to the SCV's. Edit : I made an example screenshot before 1 reaper hits your base. At this timeframe u have 1 marine out guarding the ramp. P.s. goldplayer, so dont flame at me for saying something stupid
Have fun repairing :/
Seriously tho Im doing 12 rax 12 gas 14 rax proxy reapers and Im still winning vs everything in T....and I get an orbital
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On March 24 2013 15:52 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 15:15 govie wrote:Couldn't a tight FE build counter this. Tight meaning. building everybuilding in the main to wall one way off to the minerallines? The reapers do not have any edge over marines in this way, except the heal. Im thinkin this could mean ur so far ahead economiccaly, because u just have to hold 1 entrance to the SCV's. Edit : I made an example screenshot before 1 reaper hits your base. At this timeframe u have 1 marine out guarding the ramp. P.s. goldplayer, so dont flame at me for saying something stupid Have fun repairing :/ Seriously tho Im doing 12 rax 12 gas 14 rax proxy reapers and Im still winning vs everything in T....and I get an orbital
U dont understand what i mean. If u open like this, standard FE with neath building placement at this timeframe, u dont know if your opponent has gone 88 or similar.
Seeing that the 2cc is allready building, followup production buildings are comming shortly. If the reaper meets your scout, that means u can identify an early proxy 88 or no proxy. The building placement is just to stall, to get a descent answer out on the field against early reaperaggression (the map can alter the response to 88 or an early reaperbuild). The damage from reaper to buildings is minimal, so time enough as i see it.
I think your 12/12/14 will be to late against this wall off. because by time u hit, which is well past 3:30, your opponent will have the infrastructure to beat ur strategy when buildingplacement is similar. By then u are way behind because there is no way u can deal economical damage to catch on up such short notice. Any timing push would kill u outright, because u lack dps..
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Pretty good played right. Slight modification suggested on 2p maps that can make it really nasty:
Send scouting worker immediately
6 - scv
7 - scv
8 - scv
9 - DEPOT with proxy scv, do NOT pull workers to build this, use the proxy scv
9 - barracks (with proxy SCV - rallyclick the SCV to a spot closer to the enemy base so he'll move after finishing this rax, prepared for the second proxy rax)
9 - Refinery (1:40)
9 - SCV
10 - SCV
@ refinery completion, put 3 on gas IMMEDIATELY
2:40 build first reaper
13 Barracks #2 (build this closer to enemy base with proxy scv)
13 Reaper #2
15 Orbital Command
15 Reaper #3
17 Reaper #4
You can technically get out the first and fourth reaper about 4 seconds earlier if you do a build without an orbital command, but this build puts the proxies closer to the enemy base, effectively making the attack times (units inside enemy base) a hair faster while still allowing you an orbital command for really nice followup.
Now you make a decision.
OPTION 1:
Is your attack going well? Are you going to win if you just push a FEW more reapers? Calldown supplies on your proxy depot, build a second refinery (put 2-3 on gas asap) and keep pumping reapers non-stop to 8 total @ 6:00.
If you calldown extra supplies on your proxy depot, you can continue pretty much nonstop reaper production up to 8, with them all arriving within roughly 6:15 (and in the enemy base by 6:20-6:30)
OPTION 2:
Alternatively, calldown a mule and pump a depot at home ASAP. You have lots of paths here. If you continue reaper production you still end up with 7 of them in the enemy base around 6:20-6:30 (one less than the extra supplies build). Start a second refinery. Start pumping scvs. Go factory and widow mines, or tanks. Do a fancy float to highground and start producing widow mines in his base. Hell, you could run another scv out from your base while pulling all scvs back to minerals and go 4-5 reactor rax massive marine force. With mules, your income can support one hell of a followup.
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Does anyone have a video or replay showing how to survive as terran without loosing a lot of workers?
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On March 24 2013 22:13 GuiRao wrote:
Does anyone have a video or replay showing how to survive as terran without loosing a lot of workers?
I have found the best way to handle this with taking minimal damage is by opening 12rax reaper (then getting a 14 or 15rax and go 2rax reaper) just make sure you don't lose your first reaper, and you will be fine against it
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On March 24 2013 22:32 puppylisk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 22:13 GuiRao wrote:
Does anyone have a video or replay showing how to survive as terran without loosing a lot of workers? I have found the best way to handle this with taking minimal damage is by opening 12rax reaper (then getting a 14 or 15rax and go 2rax reaper) just make sure you don't lose your first reaper, and you will be fine against it
What about building a bunker?
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On March 24 2013 22:36 GuiRao wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 22:32 puppylisk wrote:On March 24 2013 22:13 GuiRao wrote:
Does anyone have a video or replay showing how to survive as terran without loosing a lot of workers? I have found the best way to handle this with taking minimal damage is by opening 12rax reaper (then getting a 14 or 15rax and go 2rax reaper) just make sure you don't lose your first reaper, and you will be fine against it What about building a bunker?
reapers can easily outmaneuver bunkers, in my opinion your safest bet is to also open reapers, if you didn't scout and they hit you unexpectedly while you didn't open reapers, it generally results in a loss, you can try to bunker in that situation but you still most likely end up behind, not necessarily dead though
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On March 24 2013 22:39 puppylisk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 22:36 GuiRao wrote:On March 24 2013 22:32 puppylisk wrote:On March 24 2013 22:13 GuiRao wrote:
Does anyone have a video or replay showing how to survive as terran without loosing a lot of workers? I have found the best way to handle this with taking minimal damage is by opening 12rax reaper (then getting a 14 or 15rax and go 2rax reaper) just make sure you don't lose your first reaper, and you will be fine against it What about building a bunker? reapers can easily outmaneuver bunkers, in my opinion your safest bet is to also open reapers, if you didn't scout and they hit you unexpectedly while you didn't open reapers, it generally results in a loss, you can try to bunker in that situation but you still most likely end up behind, not necessarily dead though
Dont change your build, if u dont have too.
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I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures.
Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg.
If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead…
At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility).
Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below:
![[image loading]](http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/449165888.jpg)
In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax.
In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count.
In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine.
For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway.
If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses.
Blunders to avoid:
- Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect.
- No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it.
TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
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I was fiddling with the build a bit:
Send scouting worker immediately (literally 2 seconds into the game, right after you start building your first SCV)
6 - scv
7 - scv
8 - scv
:54 9 - DEPOT with the PROXY scv, do NOT pull workers to build this, use the proxy scv and build it the instant you have 100 minerals - this will become your proxy location
1:26 9 - barracks (with proxy SCV)
1:37 9 - Refinery
9 - SCV
10 - SCV
@ refinery completion, put 3 on gas IMMEDIATELY
2:38 build first reaper
2:34 13 build barracks #2 at proxy
3:07 BUILD ORBITAL COMMAND RIGHT NOW! Timing is critical on this one.
13 Reaper #2
15 Reaper #3
17 Reaper #4
3:40 Orbital finished, immediately drop a mule. Send another SCV forward to the proxy and get barracks #3 and #4 started ASAP without slowing down reaper production.
The early orbital really adds power to the followup. You can pretty immediately lay down a second Ref, add factories, bunker at the front, etc etc etc. Makes up for the low SCV count just a bit. There might even be room here for an SCV+reaper all-in timing, although I wonder if you could break a full wall quick enough to make it valid.
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Paradigmshift for all welldone! seeing ur post, u must be a math wizkid:D
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Hi. Can this build be optimized a little more by adding more SCVs? Maybe 88910 instead of 8888. Anyone have tried messing around with it a little?
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I actually tried this out except with 1 rax instead. My opponent (on ladder) did the 2rax version of this and I ended up winning. Not sure which one is better but I like it. Will upload replay later if anyone is interested
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I have tried this a couple of times now, except i proxy both rax, and it end being a 8 rax and a 11 rax.
So i resume scv production when i build first rax, and then i build the other rax right after at ~ 11 supply.
I havent lost with it yet, and i have met both 1 rax FE, 2 rax, and 1 rax 1 fac openings.
The bunker defense is not really worth it, since you can either go around, or camp production facilities.
Some people tries to block ramp cause of reactor helion openings, and that is usually instant loss right there.
I'm low / mid masters btw.
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On March 26 2013 09:27 Kanaz wrote:
I have tried this a couple of times now, except i proxy both rax, and it end being a 8 rax and a 11 rax.
So i resume scv production when i build first rax, and then i build the other rax right after at ~ 11 supply.
I havent lost with it yet, and i have met both 1 rax FE, 2 rax, and 1 rax 1 fac openings.
The bunker defense is not really worth it, since you can either go around, or camp production facilities.
Some people tries to block ramp cause of reactor helion openings, and that is usually instant loss right there.
I'm low / mid masters btw.
Could you please post a replay or two of this?
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I have about a 60% win ratio with this build in all match ups, except in TvT I don't think it's ever worked. I don't see how it's hard to hold in TvT as long as you scout.
I saw someone do a 4rax reaper build off a decent economy (3 of the raxes were proxied) that looked much stronger than this.
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On February 20 2013 22:42 Baum wrote:
Well, i really thought the new reaper is going to be even more useless than in WOL but these proxy reaper builds are really tough to deal with. I would like it if Blizzard stopped trying to make the reaper some kind of harass unit rather than just a resilient scouting unit. This would make it possible to give it a faster build time and make it more feasible to get a reaper while fast expanding.
In my opinion, its not as great a harass unit as it was in WoL. Blizzard nerfed its damage from 5 to 4.
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Great post. I have hardly seen any Terran's on ladder so I have not had much experience yet. What is your usual scout timing to look for these kinds of shenanigans? I had been thinking to scout with my first reaper to save minerals, but this may put me in a bind vs this strat.
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I've been going for a ridiculously early scout and getting 1 or 2 marauders with slow if I think I need them. Fortunately they're that common at high/dia low masters I can usually blind counter if the map's too big to scout in time.
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I'm glad I don't play terran because this build looks crazy good. Good thing protoss vs protoss cheese sucks now because of the mothership core xD
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thank you! may all the primitive reapers openers sent back to the 90's
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:
TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
This is a great post, there are in my experience only two big windows to do damage, and that is when its 1v1 reaper marine and when its 3v3. The combat drugs make this kinda sketchy though, as in many situations the reaper force will be to big to handle if only a small mistake is made by the defender. All in all I still think this is a very strong build provided the attacker doesn't jump up the most natural place with the reapers, and provided he retains them.
Ah, its so lovely with builds that are solved yet still provide a hefty micro battle!
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thx 4 your post. Valuable information!
I played against 8/8/8 recently and could hold it with ease and then won the game easily.
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On March 27 2013 01:14 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden. Great post. I have hardly seen any Terran's on ladder so I have not had much experience yet. What is your usual scout timing to look for these kinds of shenanigans? I had been thinking to scout with my first reaper to save minerals, but this may put me in a bind vs this strat.
13 scout. Even when opening Reaper you're more or less forced to scout around your base with a SCV before starting your first or at least your second Reaper, else you run into troubles against proxy Marauders.
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
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I initially in this thread said that I assumed this strat would lead to reaper nerfs. Then I played it myself a few times and realised how easily it can be stopped.
do you guys think when playing against this rush its worth proxying your factory as he has nothing at home to defend?
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On March 27 2013 16:52 ThePianoDentist wrote:
I initially in this thread said that I assumed this strat would lead to reaper nerfs. Then I played it myself a few times and realised how easily it can be stopped.
do you guys think when playing against this rush its worth proxying your factory as he has nothing at home to defend?
It is an interesting idea. but he will still be far behind, and as Dwf said before, it is gg when you get hellion or mine, so I believe it's preferable to be safer and get mine/hellion at home, crush his push, and then just go kill him, as he won't have any production or economy compared to you. I think you could also expand instead of going all in (still counterattack though), and then be miles ahead of him.
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thank you for this post! <3
I ve been Sim city-ing my base lately also: walling off one side of my CC with rax and depot (the same side as my gas), going 12 rax 13 gas); if there is a problem you just make a quick bunker. Do you think this is a good idea or does it create too good corridors for the reapers to kite? It makes it practically impossible to loose that first marine tbh.
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thank you so much for this. Could you link this to a reply just so that I see it in actions...reapers have been a pain for me lately.
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For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead.
Well this game is quite useless when discussing how to defend this. Yoda made orbital command and it's really not a big deal to defend this.
But if you go two rax no orbital command its totally different situation and its much more hard to defend. I still don't know whats the best way.
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On May 28 2015 20:58 MSN wrote:Show nested quote +
For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead.
Well this game is quite useless when discussing how to defend this. Yoda made orbital command and it's really not a big deal to defend this. But if you go two rax no orbital command its totally different situation and its much more hard to defend. I still don't know whats the best way.
see the bolded part :
On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:
For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway.
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EPT
