[D]8/8 proxy reaper rax tvt (and build intro) - Page 5

On March 24 2013 22:13 GuiRao wrote:
Does anyone have a video or replay showing how to survive as terran without loosing a lot of workers?

On March 24 2013 22:32 puppylisk wrote:


I have found the best way to handle this with taking minimal damage is by opening 12rax reaper (then getting a 14 or 15rax and go 2rax reaper) just make sure you don't lose your first reaper, and you will be fine against it

On March 24 2013 22:36 GuiRao wrote:


What about building a bunker?

On March 24 2013 22:39 puppylisk wrote:


reapers can easily outmaneuver bunkers, in my opinion your safest bet is to also open reapers, if you didn't scout and they hit you unexpectedly while you didn't open reapers, it generally results in a loss, you can try to bunker in that situation but you still most likely end up behind, not necessarily dead though

On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:
I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures.

Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg.

If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead…

At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility).

Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below:



In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax.
In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count.
In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine.

For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway.

If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses.

Blunders to avoid:
- Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect.
- No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it.

TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.

On March 26 2013 09:27 Kanaz wrote:
I have tried this a couple of times now, except i proxy both rax, and it end being a 8 rax and a 11 rax.
So i resume scv production when i build first rax, and then i build the other rax right after at ~ 11 supply.
I havent lost with it yet, and i have met both 1 rax FE, 2 rax, and 1 rax 1 fac openings.
The bunker defense is not really worth it, since you can either go around, or camp production facilities.
Some people tries to block ramp cause of reactor helion openings, and that is usually instant loss right there.
I'm low / mid masters btw.

On February 20 2013 22:42 Baum wrote:
Well, i really thought the new reaper is going to be even more useless than in WOL but these proxy reaper builds are really tough to deal with. I would like it if Blizzard stopped trying to make the reaper some kind of harass unit rather than just a resilient scouting unit. This would make it possible to give it a faster build time and make it more feasible to get a reaper while fast expanding.

On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:
I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures.

Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg.

If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead…

At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility).

Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below:



In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax.
In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count.
In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine.

For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway.

If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses.

Blunders to avoid:
- Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect.
- No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it.

TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.

On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:
I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures.

Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg.

If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead…

At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility).

Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below:



In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax.
In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count.
In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine.

For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway.

If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses.

Blunders to avoid:
- Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect.
- No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it.

TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.