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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: ![[image loading]](http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/449165888.jpg) In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thx 4 your post. Valuable information!
I played against 8/8/8 recently and could hold it with ease and then won the game easily.
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On March 27 2013 01:14 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden. Great post. I have hardly seen any Terran's on ladder so I have not had much experience yet. What is your usual scout timing to look for these kinds of shenanigans? I had been thinking to scout with my first reaper to save minerals, but this may put me in a bind vs this strat.
13 scout. Even when opening Reaper you're more or less forced to scout around your base with a SCV before starting your first or at least your second Reaper, else you run into troubles against proxy Marauders.
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
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I initially in this thread said that I assumed this strat would lead to reaper nerfs. Then I played it myself a few times and realised how easily it can be stopped.
do you guys think when playing against this rush its worth proxying your factory as he has nothing at home to defend?
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On March 27 2013 16:52 ThePianoDentist wrote:
I initially in this thread said that I assumed this strat would lead to reaper nerfs. Then I played it myself a few times and realised how easily it can be stopped.
do you guys think when playing against this rush its worth proxying your factory as he has nothing at home to defend?
It is an interesting idea. but he will still be far behind, and as Dwf said before, it is gg when you get hellion or mine, so I believe it's preferable to be safer and get mine/hellion at home, crush his push, and then just go kill him, as he won't have any production or economy compared to you. I think you could also expand instead of going all in (still counterattack though), and then be miles ahead of him.
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thank you for this post! <3
I ve been Sim city-ing my base lately also: walling off one side of my CC with rax and depot (the same side as my gas), going 12 rax 13 gas); if there is a problem you just make a quick bunker. Do you think this is a good idea or does it create too good corridors for the reapers to kite? It makes it practically impossible to loose that first marine tbh.
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On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:I don't understand all the fuss over this. Unless I missed something 8-8-8 is awful, whether he goes OC or not… It loses to any continuous production from the first Barracks as long as you take some appropriate measures. Two days ago, BratOK did this build (using the OC and delayed 1X second rax variant) against me with like five seconds distance between his proxy Barracks and my mineral line, and I had no trouble defending despite being braindead and not even really recognizing it with my scouting SCV. The procedure is simple: retain your first Marine, build a Bunker as a shelter near the Barracks so Marines cannot be picked off by Reapers as they move out of the Barracks, all Marines together at one of the possible edges to have a chance to welcome Reapers as they make the jump, Factory as soon as possible (I went gas 15 so it was even late), one Mine or Hellions, gg. If we examine the most all-in version i. e. 8-8-8-8 completely skipping OC, we have the first Reaper being complete at ~3'15 (next ones at 4'00, 4'45, 5'30, etc.) and the second Barracks ending at ~3'30 (with Reapers moving out at 4'15, 5'00, 5'45, etc.). Let us immediately remember that 8-8-8 has a grand total of 4 SCVs mining minerals, i. e. 180 minerals per minut assuming those SCVs are on close patches, which means you have as much economy even if you have only your MULE mining. You can thus pull SCVs liberally to protect your first Marines and/or Reapers and still be convincingly ahead… At the beginning of the attack, the 8-8-8 has only a ~20 seconds window (give or take a few seconds depending on the distance of the proxy) in which he has the advantage, i. e. one Reaper vs one Marine. This means you simply have to hide/protect this first Marine until the second one joins the party (at 3'35), after which you have 2 Marines vs 1 Reaper. Then the second Reaper comes at 4'00, by which time your third Marine is out, which means you still prevail at 3:2 with basic micro (and just like in the 2:1 situation, you still have the option to use 2-3 SCVs as a buffer). If your opponent went OC and a delayed second rax, his rush is effectively stopped because the production of the extra Barracks will come too late (complete at like ~4'45) to do anything; when the third Reaper is there at 4'45, you're on the verge of having your fifth Marine, and fending him off with 5:3 or even 4:3 with some SCVs to shield is not difficult. At any rate, if you went gas 13 your Factory is complete at ~4'25, which means his rush is completely dead shortly after 5'05 because there might be a Mine anywhere on the field for a trap (Hellions are also a possibility). Now for the 8-8-8-8… The Reaper count increases faster, but it's still not enough to break a well-executed defence. Instead of having one Reaper at 3'15, two at 4'00, three at 4'45 and five at 5'30, the 8-8-8-8 variant (which, let us not forget it, is completely all-in) has three at 4'15, four at 4'45 and five at 5'00. Thus a build having continuous Marine production will have 4 Marines vs 3 Reapers at 4'25. In the open Reapers can win this fight, but the defender still has up to 15 SCVs ready to give their life to shield those Marines and stall long enough to get a Mine or a Hellion. The windows of vulnerability can be seen as below: In blue, the timing of the first 4 Reapers from his first rax. In purple, I underlined the advantage 8-8-8-8 has over 8-8-8-1X in terms of Reaper count. In yellow (8-8-8-1X) and red (8-8-8-8), the windows of vulnerability a continuous Marine defence has if Marines face Reapers alone in the open (which, as you understand, should therefore not happen, i. e. you have to use either SCVs or a Bunker to shield and retain those Marines). Just play cautiously with your Marines during those few moments and you'll be fine. For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway. If you opened gasless, you probably get one Bunker near your Barracks and +1-2 rax as soon as possible depending on the variation he uses. Blunders to avoid: - Don't lose your first Marine to avoid the snowball effect. - No production cut on your Barracks! Naturally you don't get any Reactor on it. TLDR; Marine and/or Reaper retention using SCVs and a Bunker somewhere to avoid the pitfall of losing too much in the few windows of vulnerability (see picture), Factory as soon as possible for Hellions or a Mine and you're golden.
Thank you so much for this. Could you link this to a reply just so that I see it in actions...reapers have been a pain for me lately.
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For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead.
Well this game is quite useless when discussing how to defend this. Yoda made orbital command and it's really not a big deal to defend this.
But if you go two rax no orbital command its totally different situation and its much more hard to defend. I still don't know whats the best way.
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On May 28 2015 20:58 MSN wrote:Show nested quote +
For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead.
Well this game is quite useless when discussing how to defend this. Yoda made orbital command and it's really not a big deal to defend this. But if you go two rax no orbital command its totally different situation and its much more hard to defend. I still don't know whats the best way.
see the bolded part :
On March 25 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:
For Reapers openings (either rax 11 gas 11 or rax 12 gas 12), you should have no trouble whatsoever. Just watch Mvp vs YoDa, Akilon Wastes, IEM, without the wrong sortie from Mvp and you see how he can easily defend while remaining miles ahead. Against 8-8-8-8 you probably want a second rax as soon as possible while still heading for Factory. Your opponent will be ahead in the Reaper count, but you have SCVs anyway.
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EPT
