Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
On January 20 2013 23:40 Cartacea wrote: Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
If you don't support siege tanks with other units, they are very weak too. Terran can lose all Siege Tanks to some mutalisks, if there are no mines/thors/marines nearby.
Another point of weakness of Swarm Hosts, that if you send Locusts too far from them, they can be more weak untill you have other units. So you sholdn't send Locusts at big distances or have a good support, which attacks with Locusts and at same time retreats back to Swarm Hosts when locusts are dead
On January 20 2013 23:40 Cartacea wrote: Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
Siege Tanks without support are bad units too
I think the point is, when you add 2-3 siege tanks to a midgame push, it can very deadly and this is not the case with SH.
When people complained about this on the big thread on the bnet thread Blizzard suggested that there could be uses for them besides a direct, heavily invested siege.
If they cant be used defensively, or to complement an army; the only role left really is harassment.
In some games you saw how zerg sent Locusts from 3-4 Swarm Host at 3rd Protoss and at same time did drops from Overlords with Hydralisks. It was nice, especially because players can overreact to Swarm Hosts, even when they're in small numbers.
Other thing that I dislike with Swarm Hosts, that on arts and portraits they're giant massive units with slow speed (see walk animation on SH portrait), when in game they're small and walking too fast, I mean their walk animation can be funny.
Will be cool to see 5-6 supply Swarm Hosts with 2x bigger unit model size and 4 Locusts spawn for 300 minerals and 200 vespene.
If they cant be used defensively
I think they can. They're very nice defence against Sentry-Immortal pushes.
On January 20 2013 23:40 Cartacea wrote: Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
Siege Tanks without support are bad units too
I understand what you mean, but when you have an army with some Swarm Hosts in it, you can use the locusts to either absorb damage or deal damage, but not both, until you have reached a critical mass.
If you use them to absorb damage, your army will survive a bit longer, but the money invested in SH could have been invested in more roaches or zerglings (for example), which also make your army more resilient and deal damage.
If you use them to deal damage, it kind of defeats the purpose of free spawned units, and your money might be better spent on something you already have the tech for.
When you use tanks, their purpose is to just deal damage, which they will always deal no matter the army they are in. (keep in mind the siege tank comparison is not perfect, as they also have a critical mass, but it works differently).
If you use them to absorb damage, your army will survive a bit longer, but the money invested in SH could have been invested in more roaches or zerglings (for example), which also make your army more resilient and deal damage.
The difference is that you make Roaches or more zerglings from your Larva, and they all are walking across the map, meaning that reinforcments can be slower.
Swarm Hosts are walking mobile barracks, and they make units for free alltime. The only thing is that you must protect them with other units, so you will always have endless production and reinforcments.
On January 21 2013 00:05 Existor wrote: In some games you saw how zerg sent Locusts from 3-4 Swarm Host at 3rd Protoss and at same time did drops from Overlords with Hydralisks. It was nice, especially because players can overreact to Swarm Hosts, even when they're in small numbers.
Other thing that I dislike with Swarm Hosts, that on arts and portraits they're giant massive units with slow speed (see walk animation on SH portrait), when in game they're small and walking too fast, I mean their walk animation can be funny.
Will be cool to see 5-6 supply Swarm Hosts with 2x bigger unit model size and 4 Locusts spawn for 300 minerals and 200 vespene.
Ha! You got that Idea from me, didn't you? ;D
I would like them to be just like that, massive units with 200-250 HP, spawning more Locusts and to be bigger, like the size of the Thor. That is what I've wrote in that other thread.
I would like them to be just like that, massive units with 200-250 HP, spawning more Locusts and to be bigger, like the size of the Thor. That is what I've wrote in that other thread.
Really? Eh, I haven't seen
P.S. Added Baneling-ling-infestor banner/info. Not much text, just try to test this alternative to Infestor-SH combo
If you use them to absorb damage, your army will survive a bit longer, but the money invested in SH could have been invested in more roaches or zerglings (for example), which also make your army more resilient and deal damage.
The difference is that you make Roaches or more zerglings from your Larva, and they all are walking across the map, meaning that reinforcments can be slower.
Swarm Hosts are walking mobile barracks, and they make units for free alltime. The only thing is that you must protect them with other units, so you will always have endless production and reinforcments.
What you said is true, my fear is that in a complete army engagement having swarm hosts (below a certain number) might be less effective than just having a bigger army.
Swarm Hosts are fantastic if you can avoid a complete engagement and continuously hammer on the enemy. However the enemy might just attack your army at once, and the continuously spawning locusts are much less effective (considering the average time an engagement lasts, you could use at best 2 waves).
If you can keep the enemy from engaging it's usually because you either have a better army already (so you should win anyway), or you are in a very favorable position, which might not be needed with an army without SH.
Just to be clear: I don't think SH are bad, far from it. I'm not sure whether SH are more cost effective than a bigger army.
I think the biggest threat for swarm host is the raven. You can pdd queens / hydras and get your seekers on. Even with 5 sec delay you will hit them. But thats what blizzard wanted right? They wanted the swarm host to force an reaction not immediately but you have to ensure to get something out to deal with them.
At the moment I face zerg players getting swarm hosts and sending the locusts wave after wave into my siege line but do not capitalize on their advantage (I cannot move away). I really think you can abuse (especially mech terran) so hard with swarm host / overlord drop and nydus network + creep spread.
Holy crap on a cracker, what a great post!! Nice information, i see that your probably better off throwing in the locusts compared to infested terrans then now to take tank fire. Should be some nice starts coming out as more and more players are starting to switch full time to HOTS.
Liquid`Zenio uses Swarm Hosts so well, better by far than any player I've seen (and I watch a lot of HotS). He doesn't just make a ton of them and hope that he overpowers the enemy. He will make an army that gains him a lot of map control, like Muta/Ling/Bling, and then use just a few Swarm Hosts to poke at all the enemies entrances. Like on Cloud Kingdom he had a few going into the ramp outside the natural, a few going to the third from the ramp outside the 4th, and another few going into the back of the third from that backdoor path. If the Terran moved out he just backed the Swarm Hosts up (because he had vision with the Locusts), and kept sieging from elsewhere. If they tried to use a small force to pick off the Swarm Hosts, he would swallow it up with his mobile army.
On January 23 2013 12:18 ZjiublingZ wrote: Liquid`Zenio uses Swarm Hosts so well, better by far than any player I've seen (and I watch a lot of HotS). He doesn't just make a ton of them and hope that he overpowers the enemy. He will make an army that gains him a lot of map control, like Muta/Ling/Bling, and then use just a few Swarm Hosts to poke at all the enemies entrances. Like on Cloud Kingdom he had a few going into the ramp outside the natural, a few going to the third from the ramp outside the 4th, and another few going into the back of the third from that backdoor path. If the Terran moved out he just backed the Swarm Hosts up (because he had vision with the Locusts), and kept sieging from elsewhere. If they tried to use a small force to pick off the Swarm Hosts, he would swallow it up with his mobile army.
Can you give some his games with swarm hosts? Will be great to see
EPT
