Swarm Host - powerfull siege unit, that becomes available at same time as Infestor, costs 200 minerals and 100 gas, takes up 3 supply and have exactly same amount of HP and armor as Siege Tank: 160 HP and 1 starting armor. They are classified as "Biological - Armored", Locusts are "Biological - Light".
Their DPS is 12x2 damage per 0.8 seconds, which gives 30 DPS from two Locusts. To deal damage Locusts must reach enemy so they can shoot at 3 range. On creep they can move 40% faster, which means their speed grows from 1.88 to 2.65. Well, in many cases main point of Locusts is not about dealing damage. It's more about fearing enemy and holding some territory and tank damage for other Zerg units. I want to discuss them more intensively, how to better kill them, how to better use them, what mistakes should be avoided and how. Here you will see some tips how to use Swarm Hosts, some facts about their control and great games with Swarm Host (SH) usage, epic moments with some Zerg unit compositions, including SH.
Reminder. I can't guarantee that some of these tips/strategies may be effective or work well. It's all about experimenting with it and trying to vary your gameplay. This is just basic and fundamental guide about Swarm Hosts, that I want to bring to you and discuss about these great Swarmy units with you.
Always check when SH have glowing eggs on their backs. It means that they can create tons of Locust at any second from player's order or just with autocast. It's especially important when Locusts have lifetime upgrade. If it was researched, there will be no 10-second window between death of Locusts and spawn of new ones.
Swarm Host eggs will start glow 2 seconds before Locusts will be created. Then 1-2 more seconds those Eggs will "jump" from backs of SHs to ground, so in result you have 3-4 ingame seconds to react quickly and retreat with your forces, if Locusts were spawned near you forces.
Swarm Hosts are not Siege Tanks of the Swarm. Races are different. Same rule may be accepted to each unit, including Swarm Hosts. They need different way of unit controlling, which is absolutely not similar to Siege Tank control. As I said, Swarm Hosts require different style of unit controlling. You can't leave them in place and rely on their Locusts.
Swarm Hosts will support you only if you will support them. No matter how many Swarm Hosts you have, it's very easy to kill them: bring air, blink into defenceless SHs, drop something or just outdamage Locusts and kill Swarm Hosts. With only Swarm Hosts you can not win, never. Here is a good demostration of this.
Sometimes you can try to release Locusts less often and just walk more with Swarm Hosts themselfs. Why? Because speed of Swarm Hosts is always slighty higher than speed of Locusts, off creep and on creep. Lets compare:
- Swarm Host speed off creep - 2.25, Locust speed off creep - 1.88 - Swarm Host speed on creep - 2.95, Locust speed on creep - 2.65
So to slighty increase your mobility, you can "transport" Locusts in your Swarm Hosts rather than sending them to enemy from big distances and then walk with Swarm Hosts nearby.
There may be situations when Locusts can deal ZERO damage to enemy. For example enemy got many AOE-weaponry, like Colossies, Siege Tanks, Widow Mines or just always healable Marines & Marauders. As I said above, SHs will support you only if you will support them. Add Zerglings & Banelings and you can break any Siege line: Zerglings tanking damage, Locusts getting some time to reach enemy tanks and deal some damage, or vice-versa - Locusts tanking damage and Zerglings on enormous speed will be able to reach enemy tanks. Locust's weapon range is 3. If you will control your army a bit, you can fight with enemy with melee units and Locusts, staying at back side. Or with Hydralisks/Roaches, leaving Locusts at the front side. Try to use Burrow or Hold mode to optimize Locust and army movement. More about it you can read below in this article.
When relocating Swarm Hosts, sometimes you will have some Swarm Hosts, that are walking with Locusts to enemy. To avoid this, try to use Hold mode command on your Swarm Hosts. So when SHs are on Hold mode, Locusts will just surround them, without "grabbing" some Swarm Hosts into death march.
Sometimes due to attack priority Locusts will attack wrong targets. For example on enemy base, after first shot from Stalker or Siege Tank, located on other side of building or base, Locusts will try to attack in response, and because they have low range, they will need to walk around buildings to reach their target, meaning that they will waste their time.
When fighting with enemy on his base, you may notice that Locusts are attacking wrong targets. You want them to destroy everything on their path like a true Swarm, but instead they begin walk through the maze of enemy base, to reach single Siege Tank which has started to attack Locusts from other side of base. If you want Locusts to attack all enemy targets on their path, give them order to Hold mode and they will attack all targets nearby instead of trying to reach enemy Tanks and wasting their lifetime.
It may help for you when enemy is retreating with Workers using "Mineral Walk" move (so workers can retreat through your Locusts without stucking at them). Of course Locusts will not attack workers, because somewhere nearby always will be single Stalker, Siege Tank or just static defence, which will make Locusts forget about workers (due to attack priority) and start attack (or just try) that single Stalker/Tank/defence. Use Hold mode on Locusts here and they will stay at place and fire at all retreating Workers.
You can manually target specific building, but after it's destroyed, Locusts will react again to attackers, thats why Hold-mode may save some of your clicks.
When you are combining Swarm Hosts with other units, for example Hydralisks & Roaches, in some cases you'll need to retreat with core army back to Swarm Hosts and attack enemy with new Locusts, that must be at front side due to their short range. Try to use Hold mode command so Locusts will surround your army and walk around it, or Burrow command so Locusts will walk quicker to their rally point without movement conflicts with your other units.
You should try to avoid situation when Locusts are spawned at different intervals, so they come to enemy in fewer numbers and die more quickly. Here are some ways to sync Locust spawn from different Swarm Hosts (already burrowed and newly created ones).
Turn off auto-spawn and wait untill all Swarm Hosts will be ready to spawn locusts.
Tip. You can toggle autocast via hotkeys too, not only by right-clicking on icon. Hold ALT and press hotkey of ability that you want to toggle. For example Locust spawn ability is on Z, then press ALT+Z and you will turn off auto-cast for Locust spawn. Press again to turn on auto-cast again.
Burrow newly arrived Swarm Hosts 2-3 seconds before already burrowed ones will spawn Locusts. You can understand when to burrow newly arrived SHs by looking at glowing eggs on already burrowed Swarm Hosts.
Easiest way to sync Locust spawn from all Swarm Host is just unburrow all of them, wait untill every SH will be ready to spawn Locusts and then burrow all them.
Because Terran can slowly move half of his Siege Tanks under defence of other deployed tanks, Terrans can slowly come closer to Swarm Hosts. Try to make 2 waves of Locusts spawn or make a constant Locust spawn without big time rooms for Terran, allowing him to relocate his Siege Tanks. It can make every Locust wave weaker, but at same time Terran have more risk to lose undeployed Siege Tanks.
Sometimes some of your Swarm Hosts will want to be a Locust, walking with their minions and trying to do something. But on serious note, it can be a problem for you, because you can lose that single Swarm Host. Solution is simply - just use Set Rally Point more often. Also if you don't have Grid hotkey scheme, highly recommend you to rebind "Set Rally Point" hotkey to something which is easier and more comfort to reach for your fingers.
This trick does not works with Swarm Hosts, that are morphing at the moment. It's because morphing Swarm Hosts and burrowed Swarm Hosts have same rally-point command, even with different hotkeys those two commands (Rally point for Locusts and Rally point for Swarm Hosts) are still considered as one command.
Do you want one of Creeper's features from campaign? The one to spread creep when burrowed. Well, you already have it in multiplayer. Just research speed upgrade for Overlords, turn them to spread creep and make them follow your Swarm Hosts. That very simple trick allows your Locusts leave Swarm Hosts 40% faster. Also if you got one Queen which is walking across the battlefield, you will be able to place some creep tumors immediately.
On G-Star Invitational one of the most famous korean players - Leenock did a nice demonstration of SH strengh in combination with some other Zerg units. Highly recommend you to view these videos below. These games are very old, but you still can try and experiment with these gameplay styles.
Similar to Broodlord & Infestor combination, Swarm Host & Infestor may be a strong unit combination too with some good and bad sides against Broodlord/Infestor. SH/Infestor combination is immune to Vikings, but weaker vs Siege Tanks. Plus it is available a lot earlier - both units can be built after Infestation Pit is built.
ZERG vs PROTOSS. Swarm Host and Infestors can be more strong if you add Queens. They can support your Infestors with creep, shutdown Fungal'ed Observers and heal Infestors, if someone of them is very close to death. But the main power of that combo is stun effect of Fungal Growth. Enemies can't kite your Locusts or leave them, also Blink Stalkers can't blink away or blink closer, if your reaction will be good.
ZERG vs TERRAN. Swarmfestors is a similar combo to Broodfestor one. It's weaker against Siege Tanks, but immune to Vikings. Fungal stuns enemies, so Locusts can reach them, Fungal also can prevent Siege Tanks from deploying.
ZERG vs ZERG. In some past ZvZ games you may notice less Mutalisk-wars due to Spore Crawler buff against biological air units. This risky build with Nydus, Queens, Infestors and Swarm Hosts can counter enemy Zerg with Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks. Infestors can fungal Mutalisks, Queen can heal eachother and kill Mutalisks, and Locusts cover Queens/Infestors against Zerglings. Demonstration of that risky build you can see in this video
Try to use Nydus and Overlord drops with Swarm Hosts. It requires some good control and sometimes good multitask, but in my humble opinion, Locusts attacking your base in different places can be very nervous and strong, if not react quickly. It can be similar to sending some Dark Templars to each of enemy base, and if enemy don't have detectors on one of these bases, he can lose a lot workers against DTs. TLO did epic SH-drop against Strelok (Mech Terran in that game). It may be similar to Broodlords just because you can release Locusts at one ground level, then grab Swarm Hosts and drop them somewhere at other place and release Locusts again. As you'll see it feels faster than Nyduses at different locations. TLO vs Strelok
In some ZvP games Zergs love to create Nydus-outpost near enemy base. Nydus allows you to quickly transport Swarm Hosts from base to hot-spot, Queens supporting with heal, provide anti-air (7 range which is bigger than Hydralisk attack range, costs only minerals) and creep, Spores giving additional anti-air defence (400HP, fast reburrow, cheap, 7 anti-air range), and Swarm Hosts sending more and more Locusts into enemy base. Akilon Wastes is a good example of how Zerg can pressure with Locusts one of 3 enemy bases.
2 Base Swarm Host contain (vs. Protoss)
This strategy aims to quickly build up a force of Swarm Hosts and set up a contain on the Protoss opponent before they can get a suitable counter. The Swarm Hosts are supported by a variety of units to protect them and push into the Protoss base. The goal is to contain the Protoss opponent which lets the Zerg player expand freely, as well as possibly deny the Protoss a 3rd base and/or end the game.
This build has a specific execution. The Nydus Worm exit should be placed such that it blocks the closest 3rd base of the Protoss. This is so that you deny a 3rd base as well as setting up a contain.
You should queue the following into the Nydus Worm:
4 Queens
at least 4 Drones
all of your Swarm Hosts
Highly recommend you to view another great game with TLO vs WhiteRA. Zerg is dead here, but still this game may be a very good presentation how powerful may be Swarm Hosts and Nyduses.
Try to make drops while Swarm Hosts pressuring enemy base with Locusts. Probably enemy will react to Locusts, rather than to your drop, because Locusts can constantly damage him, while drop may be one-timed. Video
In this game Zerg did good drop with Overlords and at same time attacked enemy base with some Swarm Hosts.
Here Zerg with mass Nyduses, Queens and Swarm Hosts destroys three (!) enemy bases in some minutes! This game may be a very good demonstration of how Zergs are better at basetrading than other races.
This match demonstrates why you should never leave your Swarm Hosts alone and support them. If Zerg added some Banelings or other AOE stuff, he would be able to hold mass-Marines and Hellbats.
Swarm Host Ovie-Drops sometimes may be a very strong and dangerous. In this thread Chrono shows how it can distract enemy. Drop SH, release Locusts, enemy coming here to fight with drop, but SH were evacuated with Overlords. Do it at difference places while attacking at the front side. Believe me, it may be very stressfull and irritating.
As alternative to Swarm Host & Infestor combination, Ling-Bane-Host combination can be good too. It has some weakness and strengh too.
It's better against drops and heavy-bio play, because Zerglings are fast. And it can allow to better defend Swarm Hosts in some situations. It can be stronger against Siege Tank lines, because Zerglings, Baneling and Locusts - all of them can be a good meatshield to their "swarm brothers". You can tank with Locusts and then run with Zergling-Baneling, or vice-versa. So it's just alternative to SH-Infestor playstyle, that has it own advatanges and weak sides, like no Fungals or anti-air, but better meatshield for Locusts or faster ground army.
Maybe you will find this unit composition easier for you or harder than Infestors, but you can try to experiment with it. Here is a good video with defensive power demonstration of Zergs, using Swarm Hosts and Zergling/Banelings.
Lets compare Swarm Hosts and Siege Tanks. I did some experiments with different placement of Swarm Hosts and Siege Tanks.
First test. Group of 12 Swarm Hosts spawning Locusts with rally point at 12 clumped Siege Tanks. Siege Tanks are able to kill all locusts without any damage from Locusts.
Second test. Spread Siege Mushrooms around Siege Tanks, so Locusts will spawn more spreaded and splitted. It gives better result, because Locusts taking less splash damage and this time they can reach Siege Tanks and do some damage and sometimes kill one of Tanks.
Third test. This time Siege Tanks are spreaded too. It gives better result for Swarm Hosts, but not that better for Siege Tanks. Many of Siege Tanks starting fire at Locusts a bit later, meaning that Locusts can reach Siege Tanks with less damage taken.
Well, in most cases, Swarm Hosts can not do any damage to Siege Tanks, especially when it's not a flat landscape. Well, Vipers can bring back domination over Siege Tanks - blind some of them or abduct, so Locusts can reach them and kill more effectively.
Widow Mines are very good against Locusts, especially if they're placed in Siege Tank radius. Two shots from Mines can kill big group of Locusts. The problem for Terran side can occur, if Locusts are splitted or Zerg player splitted them, so only 2-3 locusts will take damage and then all other Locusts will go to Terran. Against that Terran can try to place Widow Mines inside a range of deployed Siege Tank, so those 2-3 Locusts will not be able to drain Widow Mine charges at all.
Well, if Zerg brings Overseer, Locusts can damage or kill some Widow Mines at front side. Also if Zerg will split Swarm Hosts (Around tanks or split into 2-3 groups) so Locusts will not move in a small ball, and only then Widow Mines can become less effective.
Try to start with Mutalisks, do some harass and then switch to Swarm Hosts. Why it can be effective? It can force enemy into some scenarios, that can be effective for you:
First, enemy will know that you started make Mutalisks, and he will waste a lot minerals on placing anti-air turrets on every base. But you will not play Mutalisks heavily, just 5-10 of them.
Second, it can force Protoss opponent to make Stargate and Phoenixes, when you're switching into heavy ground forces, like Queens-SH, or Hydra-SH.
Corruptors + Overseers + Swarm Hosts - one of the most dangerous unit combinations for Protoss. Corruptors can clear all air units, except Void Rays, or Colossies with Observers, when Locusts can support them on ground against Stalkers. Add Abducts, and Protoss will have a lot more problems. Pull enemy Colossies closer to you, and oneshot them with your Locusts and Corruptors. Also you should know, that Locusts can attack enemy units during Abduct process!
With speed-upgraded Zerglings, Hydralisks and Roaches it's possible to raid Protoss bases while Swarm Hosts pressuring somewhere too. You also can try to make a trap for Protoss deathball. Try to attack with half of your army and surround it with Locusts from other side. Good demonstration of these maneuvers you can see here. Another nice game features nice synergy between Hydralisks, Corruptors and Swarm hosts.
In this match Broodlords and Swarm Hosts become a very swarmy and strong deathball at Zerg side. One of the reasons is that from Infestation Pit to Greater Spire you need to one step - upgrade to Hive and get access to many powerfull features like Vipers and Broodlords.
Queens, Vipers and Swarm Hosts - this deadly unit combination can be a nightmare for Protoss. You don't spend gas on Hydralisks, spending it on more Swarm Hosts and Vipers.
Queens can heal Vipers, other Queens and Swarm Hosts, and tank some damage when attacking enemy air or ground units. Queens alse provide you mass-creep around, speeding up Locusts by 40% (up to 2.65 speed on creep) and allowing to relocate Swarm Hosts quicker at 2.95 speed. Queens also have 1 more range against air, than Hydralisks, meaning that they can snipe Observers from ground a bit more effective than Hydralisks.
Vipers can Abduct enemy air into Queens, they can also Abduct enemy Observer. Vipers can also cast Blinding cloud on Stalkers, who blinked into your Swarm Host field, forcing them to blink away or walk around, giving you some more seconds untill another wave of Locusts will spawn. Abducting colossies can be effective too. And why it's better than Hydralisk-Vipers? First, as I said, you don't waste gas on Hydralisks, meaning that you will have more Vipers. Second, Locusts are slow, and Abducting enemy units closer to Locusts and flying away at 2.95 speed, so this unit composition can be good too like Hydra-Vipers.
Mass-Queens also can "energy transfuse" Vipers via healing Evolution Chambers. For 50 energy Queen can heal 125 health, same amount of energy can be recovered by Viper for 200 health of building. More about Vipers, what to Consume first and what you can do with Vipers, you can find in separate Viper thread.
In this video Zerg blinds entire Protoss deathball, forcing it to move... closer to Locusts! he can't retreat, because there is Hydroach from one side and mass-Locusts from other side. It was a nice trap.
Another video shows a game against Teran where you can see some usage of Queens, Vipers and Hydralisks, but mostly Swarm Hosts and Vipers were in action. The main idea is going around Abducts, relocating Swarm Hosts, and good anti-air support with mass-creep and healing only for minerals.
In lategame with good income and better eco you can add Hydralisks to your Swarm Hosts. Rekatan, top-master league Zerg player, trying to show us in some of his streams, how Swarm Hosts are good and why they don't suck.
In this videoRekatan forced Protoss deathball to attack his defenceless Swarm Hosts, at same time he started attacking that deathball with Queen-Hydroaches from other side, and then at 17th minute we can see similar move again. Protoss deathball went to follow and attack weak Hydroach, when there were Locsts from other side. Protoss needed to retreat again.
You can see, how Swarm Hosts can be good. One time they're supporting a "defenceless" army, other time they're attacking enemy base, and another time they're again forcing Protoss to react.
In this game below you can see another nice game from TLO vs WhiteRA, where Queens, Hydralisks and Swarm Hosts with some Vipers are fighting against Protoss air fleet.
Another good strategy against Protoss goes around Swarm Hosts and Spore Crawlers, no Hydralisks, no Corruptors, no other gas-expensive tech, only Siege Mushrooms and Spores around with creep. Spore Crawlers have big AA-range - 7 (both Hydralisks & Corruptors has 6 weapon range), they are cheap and have 400 HP, plus they are very mobile because of fast rooting time.
Also Spore Crawlers have one of highest DPS of all Zerg anti-air weapons.
Corruptor DPS - 7.4 (10.6 vs Massive)
Queen AA-DPS - 9
Hydralisk DPS - 14.5
Spore Crawler DPS - 17.4
Use Spore Crawlers to make Swarm Hosts much harder to detect and thus increase their survivability drastically, making them almost unkillable. Go with only two bases instead of three to hit when Protoss only has units that cannot deal with Locusts well.
The Build
Pool First
Hatchery at natural
2 Queens total
~3:45-4:00 1 gas @ 3:45-4:00, 2 workers
1st 100 gas: Lair
~5:45 take all gases, full saturation
next 100 gas: Overlord Speed
Ling Speed (can be skipped)
saturate 2 bases, at least 20 drones at the natural
You think, Tempest & Colossus deathball is unstopable without Corruptors? You may be wrong. In this video at 2:19:00 Rekatan killed Protoss player with Colossies and Tempests, using Hydralisks, Swarm Hosts and Vipers. He also survived some Warp Prizm drops. Abduct can help very well, even against mass Tempests, that can snipe every Viper every 3.3 seconds.
Many Zergs are struggling with ultra late game ZvP. Protoss armies seem unstoppable with Voidrays, Archons, Tempests, Storm, Colossi and more. However, in ROOTCatZ's own words, late game ZvP greatly favors Zerg so long as the Zerg poises himself properly. Day[9] tries to answer three questions below:
What tech paths to choose in midgame so that you're properly set up for late game?
How to defend against a variety of standard attacks with those tech paths?
How to crush the Protoss late game with viper swarm host?
Another good guide about ZvP in lategame from blade555555 you can find here. This guide will be going over how to engage the late game and what composition Zerg players should be going for. At the end of the guide, he will be putting up a few replays from the Korean server that go in late game showcasing how to engage. Replays
Lets take a look at EGStephano's slow, passive, mudlike, deeply anti-zerg, yet extremely strong ZvP style. Day[9] brings our attention to following questions:
Why the swarm host, viper, corrupter composition is so strong?
How to get to that fantastic late game without dying?
How to embarrass the Zerg race by playing like a passive butthead?
Similar turtle style you can see from Stephano in this game, but Protoss switched later to many Archons with Storms and many Prizm-drops, and Zerg haven't switched his strategy too. That resulted in GG for Zerg, just because no adaptation to enemy switches.
In old ZvZ (HOTS Beta) Stephano vs Mathies we can see, how mass-Spines, Vipers, Infestors and Swarm Hosts may be an unkillable bunker for blue Zerg (Mathies). Vipers can abduct Broodlords to Spores, Infested Terrans or Corruptors, Fungal Growth can stun Corruptors and Hydralisks for Infested Terrans and Locusts. What if blue Zerg did something like drops at back side of Stephano bases?
Hydralisks, Roaches & Swarm Hosts can make a new trend in ZvZ. As we can see in this match Stephano vs Goswser, Swarm Hosts may be better than Infestors. They are cheaper at vespene, and you don't need a lot of them (SH), just to support your Hydralisks & Roaches and pressure enemy bases. This unit combination also may be strong against Zergs who went Mutalisks. Spores were buffed, Hydralisks can run faster off-creep, and Mutalisks can't do much to Swarm Hosts due to Hydralisks nearby.
Extremely highly recommend you to watch Rekatan's stream and past broadcasts. He tries to use Swarm Hosts and experiment with them all the time he streams.
Check the latest recorded broadcasts from Stephano. He's one of the best at Swarm Host controlling right now http://www.twitch.tv/egstephano
Here are nice or just good replays with good demonstration of Swarm Host usage in different matchups. Also I will add some basic tips, based at every replay.
Blade (Grandmaster League) trying to use Swarm Hosts in different matchups, also here are some tips around his replays:
You should be active, don't stay at one place for a long time.
Don't leave them in one spot unless you know you can safely. If you see him moving up throw down a wave of Locusts and run back with Swarn Hosts.
Don't use only Swarm Hosts. Get a good support for them so they will support you too. Add Zerglings and Corruptors against Stalkers and Colossies. Use Vipers to fight better against Terran mech.
Try to make transitions with Swarm Hosts. With using Infestation Pit you're one step away from Hive technologies which are Vipers, Ultralisks and Brood Lords.
Use mass Changeling drops to block enemy movement temporary. Sometimes it can help your Locusts.
You can download Blade's replays with Swarm Host usage in this thread
Some more videos with nice Swarm Host demonstration and general tips on these videos you can find below:
Hydra Host versus Terran
Probably one of highest DPS which Zerg can reach - Hydralisks and Locusts. They have lower health amount, but on other side - half of army is renewable again and again, so this meatshield with Locusts can cover Hydralisks greatly.
Hydralisks can snipe Vikings (vs Vipers) and Medivacs (which healing bio)
Some hydralisks at base can snipe Medivacs and drops very quickly with spores. Plus Hydras are enoughly fast to follow Medivac-drops and enoughly DPSy to snipe them and dropped Marines
Nydus Worm at each base fully compensates immobility of Swarm Hosts. With nyduses you can fight with drops even with swarm hosts or other slow units except zerglings
Always relocate them, get more queens as healers and anti-observer snipers. Queens have biggest anti-air weapon range of all zerg units (7 AA-range for Queens against 6 for Hydras and 6 for Corruptors).
If you see danger, like Protoss killed your locusts too fast, or trying to catch you with Blink stalkers, then you can retreat via Nydus Worm and heal it with queens to make Worm live a bit longer untill you retreat with all your Swarm Hosts
Fungals can stun any strong combination of units, including hydralisk-roach, which can do nothing against incoming locust waves. Fungals also allows you to hold enemy units untill you get new wave of Locusts.
Spine Crawlers and Spores can heavily defend Swarm Hosts from speedling / speedroach / muta runbys
spread Swarm Hosts so they can't be easily revealed with single fungal
try to make small amount of mutas or corruptors to snipe overseers. SH+Corruptor is as strong, as in ZvP
in long SH vs SH battles in ZvZ use Abduct on enemy Swarm Hosts. It will allow your Locusts to snipe enemy Swarm Hosts. Remember that Abduct unburrows enemy unit.
Abduct enemy Infestors and Overseers into your Spines and Spores, so you will pay energy for killing important enemy units
Try to use small amount of banes (4 and more) to open path for your Locusts to enemy Swarm Hosts, especially abducted ones.
Post here in comments nice videos, VODs, stream broadcasts and replays with Swarm Hosts usage and lets descuss how to use them or how to fight against them.
I've seen a queen/ sh containment done vs theoretically "safe" toss openings relying on forcefields and air to defend. Done against IM seed to great effect. Zerg just wasted whole sentries energy while spewin creep/amassin spores and queens to snipe obs. Toss wasnt able to deny containment and just starved
On January 20 2013 07:16 sagefreke wrote: I think it's kinda funny that the video you show of TLO using nydus and swarm hosts, he ends up losing.
Maybe because he invested too much into Swarm Host nydus and didnt built better anti-air? Maybe because he didn't switched to Hydra--Corruptor-Vipers? What if Protoss not went into heavy airtoss playstyle? TLO shown how quickly he can kill entire base. But it also shows that not everything is imba and uncounterable, and some Protoss compositions works very well against it.
Maybe a game where the game is won because of swarm hosts? It just looks all innish.
Look at Rekatan games. They're nice too. This thread is not about "How SH are good", you can discuss here about countering it. One of the ways - heavy air from Protoss.
On January 20 2013 07:16 sagefreke wrote: I think it's kinda funny that the video you show of TLO using nydus and swarm hosts, he ends up losing.
Maybe because he invested too much into Swarm Host nydus and didnt built better anti-air? Maybe because he didn't switched to Hydra--Corruptor-Vipers? What if Protoss not went into heavy airtoss playstyle? TLO shown how quickly he can kill entire base. But it also shows that not everything is imba and uncounterable, and some Protoss compositions works very well against it.
Maybe a game where the game is won because of swarm hosts? It just looks all innish.
Look at Rekatan games. They're nice too. This thread is not about "How SH are good", you can discuss here about countering it. One of the ways - heavy air from Protoss.
What HotS Protoss isn't going air nowadays? If TLO didn't invest heavily into Swarm Host he wouldn't have done any damage in the mid game to begin with. How can you switch to Hydra Corruptor Viper when all your supply is tied up in Swarm Hosts?
How can you switch to Hydra Corruptor Viper when all your supply is tied up in Swarm Hosts?
How can you make so many Swarm Hosts if there is nothing to attack and Protoss doing only air units? He shown how effecive can be Nydus drop against deathballs. And it can be effective with less amount of Swarm Hosts and Queens. Remember, that 8 Locusts (4 Swarm Hosts, not 30, like it was on video) can kill a Nexus during their 25 seconds of life.
TLO invested too much into ground only army, yes, he killed a lot of bases, but he allowed to Protoss to create air-deathball, that can't be attacked by Swarm Hosts.
Protoss whining that Swarm Hosts are extremely OP against them, but they have more strong tool - buffed Stargate tech path, which can be allin too, if Zerg makes Hydra-Corruptors-Vipers.
On January 20 2013 07:16 sagefreke wrote: I think it's kinda funny that the video you show of TLO using nydus and swarm hosts, he ends up losing.
Maybe because he invested too much into Swarm Host nydus and didnt built better anti-air? Maybe because he didn't switched to Hydra--Corruptor-Vipers? What if Protoss not went into heavy airtoss playstyle? TLO shown how quickly he can kill entire base. But it also shows that not everything is imba and uncounterable, and some Protoss compositions works very well against it.
Maybe a game where the game is won because of swarm hosts? It just looks all innish.
Look at Rekatan games. They're nice too. This thread is not about "How SH are good", you can discuss here about countering it. One of the ways - heavy air from Protoss.
What HotS Protoss isn't going air nowadays? If TLO didn't invest heavily into Swarm Host he wouldn't have done any damage in the mid game to begin with. How can you switch to Hydra Corruptor Viper when all your supply is tied up in Swarm Hosts?
I've watched the game yesterday, and Existor is right, TLO invested way too much into Swarm Hosts. But playing against Carriers and Void Rays is another problem, no matter what he did, he wouldn't be able to beat that, even if he switched to Hydras and Corruptors immediately, since Void Rays are way too strong right now.
And btw Existor, great guide, and great banners. Also like the videos that you've linked in the guide. Great use, can't wait to see what Koreans can do with them. ^^
This is an amazing thread. I can't wait to finish work so I can watch the videos. I've seen TLO put on some pretty amazing pressure with Mushrooms + Nydus, but at the time it was only his 15th HoST match on ladder. I hope he manages to develop some crazy builds like in his WoL beta days.
I watched tlo match yesterday and tried to do that build today in zvp and zvz it was very successful. I don't think going air is instant win for protoss. Maybe when players get experienced with it they would know how to deal with air effectively. Also Getting attack upgrades benfit both hydras and sh so transitioning mayn't be as hard as it seems.
nice Thread. Lots of good advice =) I like taht there seem to be compositions that are good with a few SH because as is i´ve only found them usefull when i had 20+ of them TT.
All of this information is amazing for zergs who want to try and learn how to use swarm hosts effectively in their army.
Highly recommend this for any zerg out there wanting to get used to the beta. :D
I'd even request a spotlight for a guide like this, purely for the attention to detail and banners and just sheer amount of tactics the unit can be used for.
Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
On January 20 2013 23:40 Cartacea wrote: Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
If you don't support siege tanks with other units, they are very weak too. Terran can lose all Siege Tanks to some mutalisks, if there are no mines/thors/marines nearby.
Another point of weakness of Swarm Hosts, that if you send Locusts too far from them, they can be more weak untill you have other units. So you sholdn't send Locusts at big distances or have a good support, which attacks with Locusts and at same time retreats back to Swarm Hosts when locusts are dead
On January 20 2013 23:40 Cartacea wrote: Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
Siege Tanks without support are bad units too
I think the point is, when you add 2-3 siege tanks to a midgame push, it can very deadly and this is not the case with SH.
When people complained about this on the big thread on the bnet thread Blizzard suggested that there could be uses for them besides a direct, heavily invested siege.
If they cant be used defensively, or to complement an army; the only role left really is harassment.
In some games you saw how zerg sent Locusts from 3-4 Swarm Host at 3rd Protoss and at same time did drops from Overlords with Hydralisks. It was nice, especially because players can overreact to Swarm Hosts, even when they're in small numbers.
Other thing that I dislike with Swarm Hosts, that on arts and portraits they're giant massive units with slow speed (see walk animation on SH portrait), when in game they're small and walking too fast, I mean their walk animation can be funny.
Will be cool to see 5-6 supply Swarm Hosts with 2x bigger unit model size and 4 Locusts spawn for 300 minerals and 200 vespene.
If they cant be used defensively
I think they can. They're very nice defence against Sentry-Immortal pushes.
On January 20 2013 23:40 Cartacea wrote: Very nice thread, there's a lot of helpful information here.
However, to me the main problem with Swarm Hosts seems to be: -They are very powerful en masse. -They are very weak otherwise.
So it is easy (relatively speaking) to use them if you commit heavily, but it's harder to use them to complement your army. I think this happens because SH deal 0 damage when the locusts are killed before engaging, and completely wreck everything when they can.
Swarm Hosts should (IMO of course) spawn much more locusts with each locust dealing much less damage. This way even with a low amount of swarm hosts you are guaranteed to do some damage, and the dps scales more linearly the more hosts you have.
Siege Tanks without support are bad units too
I understand what you mean, but when you have an army with some Swarm Hosts in it, you can use the locusts to either absorb damage or deal damage, but not both, until you have reached a critical mass.
If you use them to absorb damage, your army will survive a bit longer, but the money invested in SH could have been invested in more roaches or zerglings (for example), which also make your army more resilient and deal damage.
If you use them to deal damage, it kind of defeats the purpose of free spawned units, and your money might be better spent on something you already have the tech for.
When you use tanks, their purpose is to just deal damage, which they will always deal no matter the army they are in. (keep in mind the siege tank comparison is not perfect, as they also have a critical mass, but it works differently).
If you use them to absorb damage, your army will survive a bit longer, but the money invested in SH could have been invested in more roaches or zerglings (for example), which also make your army more resilient and deal damage.
The difference is that you make Roaches or more zerglings from your Larva, and they all are walking across the map, meaning that reinforcments can be slower.
Swarm Hosts are walking mobile barracks, and they make units for free alltime. The only thing is that you must protect them with other units, so you will always have endless production and reinforcments.
On January 21 2013 00:05 Existor wrote: In some games you saw how zerg sent Locusts from 3-4 Swarm Host at 3rd Protoss and at same time did drops from Overlords with Hydralisks. It was nice, especially because players can overreact to Swarm Hosts, even when they're in small numbers.
Other thing that I dislike with Swarm Hosts, that on arts and portraits they're giant massive units with slow speed (see walk animation on SH portrait), when in game they're small and walking too fast, I mean their walk animation can be funny.
Will be cool to see 5-6 supply Swarm Hosts with 2x bigger unit model size and 4 Locusts spawn for 300 minerals and 200 vespene.
Ha! You got that Idea from me, didn't you? ;D
I would like them to be just like that, massive units with 200-250 HP, spawning more Locusts and to be bigger, like the size of the Thor. That is what I've wrote in that other thread.
I would like them to be just like that, massive units with 200-250 HP, spawning more Locusts and to be bigger, like the size of the Thor. That is what I've wrote in that other thread.
Really? Eh, I haven't seen
P.S. Added Baneling-ling-infestor banner/info. Not much text, just try to test this alternative to Infestor-SH combo
If you use them to absorb damage, your army will survive a bit longer, but the money invested in SH could have been invested in more roaches or zerglings (for example), which also make your army more resilient and deal damage.
The difference is that you make Roaches or more zerglings from your Larva, and they all are walking across the map, meaning that reinforcments can be slower.
Swarm Hosts are walking mobile barracks, and they make units for free alltime. The only thing is that you must protect them with other units, so you will always have endless production and reinforcments.
What you said is true, my fear is that in a complete army engagement having swarm hosts (below a certain number) might be less effective than just having a bigger army.
Swarm Hosts are fantastic if you can avoid a complete engagement and continuously hammer on the enemy. However the enemy might just attack your army at once, and the continuously spawning locusts are much less effective (considering the average time an engagement lasts, you could use at best 2 waves).
If you can keep the enemy from engaging it's usually because you either have a better army already (so you should win anyway), or you are in a very favorable position, which might not be needed with an army without SH.
Just to be clear: I don't think SH are bad, far from it. I'm not sure whether SH are more cost effective than a bigger army.
I think the biggest threat for swarm host is the raven. You can pdd queens / hydras and get your seekers on. Even with 5 sec delay you will hit them. But thats what blizzard wanted right? They wanted the swarm host to force an reaction not immediately but you have to ensure to get something out to deal with them.
At the moment I face zerg players getting swarm hosts and sending the locusts wave after wave into my siege line but do not capitalize on their advantage (I cannot move away). I really think you can abuse (especially mech terran) so hard with swarm host / overlord drop and nydus network + creep spread.
Holy crap on a cracker, what a great post!! Nice information, i see that your probably better off throwing in the locusts compared to infested terrans then now to take tank fire. Should be some nice starts coming out as more and more players are starting to switch full time to HOTS.
Liquid`Zenio uses Swarm Hosts so well, better by far than any player I've seen (and I watch a lot of HotS). He doesn't just make a ton of them and hope that he overpowers the enemy. He will make an army that gains him a lot of map control, like Muta/Ling/Bling, and then use just a few Swarm Hosts to poke at all the enemies entrances. Like on Cloud Kingdom he had a few going into the ramp outside the natural, a few going to the third from the ramp outside the 4th, and another few going into the back of the third from that backdoor path. If the Terran moved out he just backed the Swarm Hosts up (because he had vision with the Locusts), and kept sieging from elsewhere. If they tried to use a small force to pick off the Swarm Hosts, he would swallow it up with his mobile army.
On January 23 2013 12:18 ZjiublingZ wrote: Liquid`Zenio uses Swarm Hosts so well, better by far than any player I've seen (and I watch a lot of HotS). He doesn't just make a ton of them and hope that he overpowers the enemy. He will make an army that gains him a lot of map control, like Muta/Ling/Bling, and then use just a few Swarm Hosts to poke at all the enemies entrances. Like on Cloud Kingdom he had a few going into the ramp outside the natural, a few going to the third from the ramp outside the 4th, and another few going into the back of the third from that backdoor path. If the Terran moved out he just backed the Swarm Hosts up (because he had vision with the Locusts), and kept sieging from elsewhere. If they tried to use a small force to pick off the Swarm Hosts, he would swallow it up with his mobile army.
Can you give some his games with swarm hosts? Will be great to see
On January 21 2013 03:26 EuSpex wrote: I think the biggest threat for swarm host is the raven. You can pdd queens / hydras and get your seekers on. Even with 5 sec delay you will hit them. But thats what blizzard wanted right? They wanted the swarm host to force an reaction not immediately but you have to ensure to get something out to deal with them.
At the moment I face zerg players getting swarm hosts and sending the locusts wave after wave into my siege line but do not capitalize on their advantage (I cannot move away). I really think you can abuse (especially mech terran) so hard with swarm host / overlord drop and nydus network + creep spread.
locusts activate pdd; with so many locusts, pdd energy vanishes in seconds.
Been watching Rekatan's stream. He really makes great use of swarm hosts, in ways I was hoping to see. He does 'hit and run' where he lets loose a pack of locusts, unborrows, repositions and lets loose again.
Very rarely do his hosts ever even get hit by the enemy army, and most of the time they are above ground, only burrowing for a few seconds to let loose their next wave. He 'kites' enemy armies with his host ball and its real hard to get close to them. I've also seen him spread them out to send locusts in from multiple angles.
He's also making great use of the fast hydra, mass queen and viper pull to deal with mass collossi, air, or anything hosts can't deal with.
Makes me excited for the next few months when we will see the top korean zergs using them.
Here are nice or just good replays with good demonstration of Swarm Host usage in different matchups. Also I will add some basic tips, based at every replay.
Blade (Grandmaster League) trying to use Swarm Hosts in different matchups, also here are some tips around his replays: • You should be active, don't stay at one place for a long time. • Don't leave them in one spot unless you know you can safely. If you see him moving up throw down a wave of Locusts and run back with Swarn Hosts. • Don't use only Swarm Hosts. Get a good support for them so they will support you too. Add Zerglings and Corruptors against Stalkers and Colossies. Use Vipers to fight better against Terran mech. • Try to make transitions with Swarm Hosts. With using Infestation Pit you're one step away from Hive technologies which are Vipers, Ultralisks and Brood Lords. • Try to make a small Special Strike group with some Hydroaches or Zerglings and Vipers against Terran. When Terran fighting on front side, you can always runby into blinded Siege Tanks from the back side.
You can download Blade's replays with Swarm Host usage in this thread
If you will find nice replays with Swarm Host usage, post here and I will add them too to first post.
So every time I relocate the swarm host I lose the attack rally point. Is there a quicker way to do this without having to click the rally point every time I relocate the SH? This is especially annoying when im moving small packs of 3-4 hosts at a time forward (leap-frogging). Thanks.
On February 05 2013 03:11 Prime Directive wrote: So every time I relocate the swarm host I lose the attack rally point. Is there a quicker way to do this without having to click the rally point every time I relocate the SH? This is especially annoying when im moving small packs of 3-4 hosts at a time forward (leap-frogging). Thanks.
No solution. It isn't really hard to click again somewhere
It is annoying that you can't queue the rally tho. If you issue a move-burrow-move it should assume the final move is a locus rally so you dont have to baby sit them as much.
TLO played a bunch of games with SH today one of which made them seem very viable vs standard Protoss (WoL standards anyways). TLO vs BlinG Game starts around 1:47:00 http://it.twitch.tv/liquidtlo/b/364009877
TLO opens with Roaches (standard) and pushes back Bling's early stalker pressure. The only real hiccup I saw in Bling's play was when TLO manages to force a cancel on his third. I guess Bling should have taken the rocks on his ramp out sooner and could have stalled with FF but I'm not sure it would have mattered. From that point TLO basically uses his Roaches as a buffer while he transitions into pure SH and establishes a contain. TLO maxes out on SH and just before Bling can get the critical number of Colossus needed to kill the locusts TLO gets Vipers out allowing him to abduct and kill the Colossus so Bling ggs.
I see people saying that Skytoss is a counter to SH and while I agree to an extent the interesting thing is that Skytoss is actually kind of immobile. SH are much quicker than Void Rays and I have seen both TLO and Blade simply reposition their SH when the Voids get too close. Since toss air doesn't do any AoE if you have enough SH they will be forced to focus on killing locusts instead of your SH which gives you the time to unburrow and move to one of the other toss expansions. There is a game vs Grubby in that same stream session from TLO where Grubby goes air and TLO wins by simply being more mobile.
I really want to have access to the Swarm Host rally point at all times, even when unburrowed. Thus you wouldn't lose the rally point when you unburrow, and you would be able to set the locust rally point when they are lumbering their way across the map.
Having the rally point go away every time you unburrow, and being unable to set it while unburrowed, I find to be really laborious. Really really unfun unit micromanagement.
On February 16 2013 01:57 Hairy wrote: I really want to have access to the Swarm Host rally point at all times, even when unburrowed. Thus you wouldn't lose the rally point when you unburrow, and you would be able to set the locust rally point when they are lumbering their way across the map.
Having the rally point go away every time you unburrow, and being unable to set it while unburrowed, I find to be really laborious. Really really unfun unit micromanagement.
So much good information - thanks for this post, dude! This one thing just jumped out at me because it was such a good idea that just never occurred to me.
quote: • ZERG vs TERRAN. Because Terran can slowly move half of his Siege Tanks under defence of other deployed tanks, Terrans can slowly come closer to Swarm Hosts. Try to make 2 waves of Locusts spawn or make a constant Locust spawn without big time rooms for Terran, allowing him to relocate his Siege Tanks. It can make every Locust wave weaker, but at same time Terran have more risk to lose undeployed Siege Tanks.
Small but usefull tip that i didn't find in the OP.
When you siege your swarm hosts, there are those situations where you click so fast that they don't actually borrow (but walk to their dead). Solution: Do not use right click to issue the rally command, but use the rally hotkey of swarm hosts. Yup, go check, there is one in the command card!
On February 22 2013 06:38 Kaleidos wrote: Small but usefull tip that i didn't find in the OP.
When you siege your swarm hosts, there are those situations where you click so fast that they don't actually borrow (but walk to their dead). Solution: Do not use right click to issue the rally command, but use the rally hotkey of swarm hosts. Yup, go check, there is one in the command card!
Woah, really useful tip. I will add it to HOTS tips and here too
Asking people who have watched and played more HoTS than me (I am top 8 masters in both games but I haven't really played much HoTS especially with new units, or watched a lot of pro streams because no good Zergs actually stream): is ling/corruptor or roach/hydra better support for swam host in ZvP?
On February 22 2013 07:21 Crowley. wrote: Asking people who have watched and played more HoTS than me (I am top 8 masters in both games but I haven't really played much HoTS especially with new units, or watched a lot of pro streams because no good Zergs actually stream): is ling/corruptor or roach/hydra better support for swam host in ZvP?
Ummmm. TLO? If you're trying to learn how to use SH and you're not trying to learn from him you're doing it wrong.
On February 22 2013 06:38 Kaleidos wrote: Small but usefull tip that i didn't find in the OP.
When you siege your swarm hosts, there are those situations where you click so fast that they don't actually borrow (but walk to their dead). Solution: Do not use right click to issue the rally command, but use the rally hotkey of swarm hosts. Yup, go check, there is one in the command card!
Woah, really useful tip. I will add it to HOTS tips and here too
And to that effect, I would recommend rebinding the key to something non-terrible, such as 'e' (the default rally hotkey is 'y' I think).
On February 22 2013 06:38 Kaleidos wrote: Small but usefull tip that i didn't find in the OP.
When you siege your swarm hosts, there are those situations where you click so fast that they don't actually borrow (but walk to their dead). Solution: Do not use right click to issue the rally command, but use the rally hotkey of swarm hosts. Yup, go check, there is one in the command card!
Woah, really useful tip. I will add it to HOTS tips and here too
And to that effect, I would recommend rebinding the key to something non-terrible, such as 'e' (the default rally hotkey is 'y' I think).
I have Grid hotkey scheme so it's not a problem for me. But I will add that suggestion too
On February 22 2013 07:21 Crowley. wrote: Asking people who have watched and played more HoTS than me (I am top 8 masters in both games but I haven't really played much HoTS especially with new units, or watched a lot of pro streams because no good Zergs actually stream): is ling/corruptor or roach/hydra better support for swam host in ZvP?
Hydra/swarmhost/corruptor is very powerful. I would do that composition (with some lings but not to many). It also can take on a voidray/templar/chargelot army in a straight up fight and win as well.
what blade said, plus I also think hydra/swarmhost/viper/queens are pretty great too~
remember that creep makes a huge difference for locusts, so get that creep spread! (helps hydras too, even if hydras have speed upgrade, they're still noticeably faster on creep. obviously helps queens/mushrooms a lot too)
have a couple uprooted spores follow around your army for mobile viper consume (again, creep)
One mistake many Zergs make with consume is to have multiple Zipers using consume on a single building. If you consume 1 building per Viper all the buildings are regenerating simultaneously. So if you use 3 vipers make 3 evos somewhere on the map.
Also as Zelniq pointed out Spores/Spines are less efficient cost wise but are mobile. So having a couple of them follow your army around can be very useful. Especially if you can only afford to have <3 vipers in your force. (use an overlord to keep them rooted when possible to help with regen and to make them support your army).
One mistake many Zergs make with consume is to have multiple Zipers using consume on a single building. If you consume 1 building per Viper all the buildings are regenerating simultaneously. So if you use 3 vipers make 3 evos somewhere on the map
Already listed in HOTS Tips thread with picture explanation and numbers
i'm aware, but those buildings don't move. besides, spores arent the worst thing ever, they're fairly cheap and worth 2 full consumes
If you have a lot consumes, so yes, spores/spines can be good. But Evo chambers and extractors are cheaper, than spines/spores.
the regen difference is negligible though. the regen is just so slow it doesn't mean that much. but you may as well cast it on other buildings if you can, sure.
On February 22 2013 10:51 Zelniq wrote: the regen difference is negligible though. the regen is just so slow it doesn't mean that much. but you may as well cast it on other buildings if you can, sure.
Yeah, regeneration is really small and we have transfuses. I've just listed another small reason why it's better to consume different buildings and try consume buildings which have more health.
One mistake many Zergs make with consume is to have multiple Zipers using consume on a single building. If you consume 1 building per Viper all the buildings are regenerating simultaneously. So if you use 3 vipers make 3 evos somewhere on the map
Already listed in HOTS Tips thread with picture explanation and numbers
In that page you linked you basically say consuming crawlers is just bad. Yes a evo or extractor is better when possible. But I think its going to far to say that having 1-3 spores following your army for consumes mid battle is not a valid tactic just because its not your personal play-style.
The nearest accessible gas or evo chamber can in many situations be nowhere near the fight. Having a couple of crawlers trailing your army gives you immediate access to consume without having to retreat your Vipers. The extra 3 Blinding clouds that 3 crawlers could give 3 vipers in 1min has the potential to let you continue to push into a Terran. The timing on this is about the same as a round of reinforcements too. The trick when using this concept would be to only use it when you really think it will help with the next push/defense, and to fly back for more economic evos/gasses in all other situations.
In that page you linked you basically say consuming crawlers is just bad. Yes a evo or extractor is better when possible. But I think its going to far to say that having 1-3 spores following your army for consumes mid battle is not a valid tactic just because its not your personal play-style.
Yeah, it depends on your play style, but if you want a lot of Consumes, it's time to send 3-4 drones and start make evo-chambers somewhere in the middle part of map. Plus spines/spores are better to leave on your expansions to defend them against better drops (widows, speedivac drops, etc)
I have to post this here, If people didn't see this game already. Vibe showcasing great usage of Swarm Hosts again Illusion. Of course, Illusion could've done a better job at dropping and defending, but damn, it was great game showing the power of well-controlled Swarm Hosts.
I'm a little concerned about Swarm Hosts actually. While watching IEM, GTSL and King of the Beta I haven't seen many high level wins were Hosts were key in the victory.
Either the Zerg commits to Hosts and loses horribly, or they add Hosts only after the game is basically won, where they represent nothing more than Zergy victory cigars.
It seems the main problem with them is their immobility... Zergs just die if they commit to Hosts because they get trapped somewhere with them, the opposing army goes around them, or they can't deal with counterattacks back at home. It seems Hosts were made to use Nydus but Nydus have their own problems that prevent them from being cost-effective. I think the exception was Ret in IEM who barely eked out wins by covering them effectively with hydras.
You can say that Zergs need more time with them to learn how to use them effectively... its to early to tell, etc etc. But I can't help but feel that they are not quite where they need to be and that Blizz will eventually give them a buff.
I thought Ret used them in a really effective manner against his protoss opponents at IEM. TLO will be playing later today, I'm betting that he will use them too.
Zergs will definitely need more time to use them more effectively, because if you think about it, the swarm host brings a type of gameplay that is completely new to Starcraft. Its also a type of gameplay that's very positional, where you need to predict your opponents moves but its also very unforgiving.
The closest style we have to it is probably terran mech, and to this day most terran players still aren't comfortable playing mech. Especially korean terrans would just rather micro their marines all day instead of trying to play this thinking mans style. But every now and then you get amazing players like MVP showing that hey, this unit comp is actually amazing as long as you have the game sense to use it to perfection.
On March 07 2013 07:20 ElMeanYo wrote: I'm a little concerned about Swarm Hosts actually. While watching IEM, GTSL and King of the Beta I haven't seen many high level wins were Hosts were key in the victory.
Either the Zerg commits to Hosts and loses horribly, or they add Hosts only after the game is basically won, where they represent nothing more than Zergy victory cigars.
It seems the main problem with them is their immobility... Zergs just die if they commit to Hosts because they get trapped somewhere with them, the opposing army goes around them, or they can't deal with counterattacks back at home. It seems Hosts were made to use Nydus but Nydus have their own problems that prevent them from being cost-effective. I think the exception was Ret in IEM who barely eked out wins by covering them effectively with hydras.
You can say that Zergs need more time with them to learn how to use them effectively... its to early to tell, etc etc. But I can't help but feel that they are not quite where they need to be and that Blizz will eventually give them a buff.
to be honest the zergs are failing at using them effectively.
The king of the beta tournament for example of TLO, TLO went all in swarmhost pretty much which imo isn't that great. Going hydra/swarmhost/corruptor is a lot stronger then going pure swarmhost/queen/nydus. I don't think the way TLO uses them is very good if the protoss knows how to deal with nydus and goes mass colossi/templar like grubby did in their third game.
For IEM, snute again failed pretty badly at using swarmhosts and allowed them to be caught out of position or he wouldn't retreat with them. When you let loose a wave of locusts, the protoss army is starting to push up you don't keep swarmhosts burrowed, you unburrow and back off. He just let them stay there so they ended up dying when they shouldn't have.
I haven't seen any GSTL with swarmhost usage so I can't comment on this one T_T.
swarm hosts seem really micro intensive to me. they're not at their best when you just plop them down and let them do their thing - 'static offense' if you will. sure there's the big nydus queen swarm host slow push that catz and others do pretty well, but they're really strong when theyre moving around, providing map awareness and limiting the opponent's movement options. it's slow-motion zerg shadowboxing.
edit: also, i think a tricky part of swarm hosts is knowing when to start getting them, and especially to know when to start transitioning out into producing some other mix of units. HotS has a lot more stopgaps for transitioning for zerg so i think it's a matter of time, experimentation, and refinement to find out stuff like 'oh around x time in this build i can start pumping speed hydras/vipers/super ultras/etc etc to move into a differently-proportioned unit composition.'
On March 07 2013 07:20 ElMeanYo wrote: I'm a little concerned about Swarm Hosts actually. While watching IEM, GTSL and King of the Beta I haven't seen many high level wins were Hosts were key in the victory.
Either the Zerg commits to Hosts and loses horribly, or they add Hosts only after the game is basically won, where they represent nothing more than Zergy victory cigars.
It seems the main problem with them is their immobility... Zergs just die if they commit to Hosts because they get trapped somewhere with them, the opposing army goes around them, or they can't deal with counterattacks back at home. It seems Hosts were made to use Nydus but Nydus have their own problems that prevent them from being cost-effective. I think the exception was Ret in IEM who barely eked out wins by covering them effectively with hydras.
You can say that Zergs need more time with them to learn how to use them effectively... its to early to tell, etc etc. But I can't help but feel that they are not quite where they need to be and that Blizz will eventually give them a buff.
Actually people are arguing that they will be too strong when pros perfect the timings and Swarm Host play. I loved that Vibe vs. Illusion game, he was constantly zoning out Illusion, and his Swarm Hosts were never in a trouble.
Swarm Hosts aren't that easy to use like Roaches are, I am pretty sure that we will see wonderful Swarm Host play in a few months or so. I've already see some.
Another category was added - about Hydralisks, Roaches and Swarm Hosts in ZvZ
Hydralisks, Roaches & Swarm Hosts can make a new trend in ZvZ. As we can see in this match Stephano vs Goswser, Swarm Hosts may be better than Infestors. They are cheaper at vespene, and you don't need a lot of them (SH), just to support your Hydralisks & Roaches and pressure enemy bases. This unit combination also may be strong against Zergs who went Mutalisks. Spores were buffed, Hydralisks can run faster off-creep, and Mutalisks can't do much to Swarm Hosts due to Hydralisks nearby.
Plus some more games demonstrating turtle-style from Stephano. You can find them at the end of "Turtle Zerg" category right after three Day[9]'s videos.
Fixed some information about DPS and links to Day[9] videos. Don't forget to add nice games, videos, replays and VODs with nice Swarm Host usage. Post them here in comments.
On June 25 2013 06:43 blade55555 wrote: Out of curiosity why didn't you just make a new thread when you pretty much redid everything? Feel like it would have gotten more exposure.
Nice write up swarmhosts so good
Don't want to clone thread. Asked for thread rename, so it will feel as a new thread in community
but why i am still not convinced on using them other than for 2 base nydus cheeses: having to babysit and create an army focused around them to be effective goes against zergs nature of attacking and remaxing with units because with this you are more likely turtling or containing. i feel its not being used as blizzard had intended (not that this is our fault) because the unit in whole is still pretty shitty.
i really wish i could like swarmhosts. maybe im bitter about the fact that command and conquer guys Blizzard devs keep forcing us to use units like reapers and not bring back classic SC units like lurkers.
Probably one of highest DPS which Zerg can reach - Hydralisks and Locusts. They have lower health amount, but on other side - half of army is renewable again and again, so this meatshield with Locusts can cover Hydralisks greatly.
Hydralisks can snipe Vikings (vs Vipers) and Medivacs (which healing bio)
Some hydralisks at base can snipe Medivacs and drops very quickly with spores. Plus Hydras are enoughly fast to follow Medivac-drops and enoughly DPSy to snipe them and dropped Marines
Nydus Worm at each base fully compensates immobility of Swarm Hosts. With nyduses you can fight with drops even with swarm hosts or other slow units except zerglings
Always relocate them, get more queens as healers and anti-observer snipers. Queens have biggest anti-air weapon range of all zerg units (7 AA-range for Queens against 6 for Hydras and 6 for Corruptors).
If you see danger, like Protoss killed your locusts too fast, or trying to catch you with Blink stalkers, then you can retreat via Nydus Worm and heal it with queens to make Worm live a bit longer untill you retreat with all your Swarm Hosts
Fungals can stun any strong combination of units, including hydralisk-roach, which can do nothing against incoming locust waves. Fungals also allows you to hold enemy units untill you get new wave of Locusts.
Spine Crawlers and Spores can heavily defend Swarm Hosts from speedling / speedroach / muta runbys
spread Swarm Hosts so they can't be easily revealed with single fungal
try to make small amount of mutas or corruptors to snipe overseers. SH+Corruptor is as strong, as in ZvP
in long SH vs SH battles in ZvZ use Abduct on enemy Swarm Hosts. It will allow your Locusts to snipe enemy Swarm Hosts. Remember that Abduct unburrows enemy unit.
Abduct enemy Infestors and Overseers into your Spines and Spores, so you will pay energy for killing important enemy units
Try to use small amount of banes (4 and more) to open path for your Locusts to enemy Swarm Hosts, especially abducted ones.
This is awesome. I remember reading this and the rekatan guide during early hots and im glad this was updated I think you should put more info into the shost/ling composition vs protoss. I saw soulkey do it a couple months ago and stole it. I think its really strong and you can get a a pretty fast crackling/ultra comp with your initial 15ish swarmhosts. I think its alot stronger than swarm host hydra (unless they open stargate) because of added mobility/cheaper dps and you can bank up gas for corruptors or ultras. Its also easier to deal with drops because of how fast lings are. Just my 2 cents though.
Also, that rally point trick is awesome! The hold position micro is pretty sick too.
Just had an idea, wonder how useful it would be. Try sending locusts from close to their max range to, for instance, the enemies well defended natural. Follow locusts with SH's. Let the first wave of locusts die to enemy army, burrow SH's up close and send a second wave very quickly before the enemy can recover much.
On December 11 2013 12:04 Stinray wrote: Just had an idea, wonder how useful it would be. Try sending locusts from close to their max range to, for instance, the enemies well defended natural. Follow locusts with SH's. Let the first wave of locusts die to enemy army, burrow SH's up close and send a second wave very quickly before the enemy can recover much.
I think, decreasing the range of SH "weapon" will solve many problems. For example modify Locust upgrade so it makes them spawn faster, and keeps 15 second life.
On December 11 2013 02:04 ultrakiss wrote: The hold position micro is pretty sick too.
Yea, i was unaware about this trick, and it's awesome, so many tricks and secrets behind this unit, i'll really love to see casters talk more about it, brings positional play to a next level!
On February 11 2014 22:23 Existor wrote: I think, decreasing the range of SH "weapon" will solve many problems. For example modify Locust upgrade so it makes them spawn faster, and keeps 15 second life.
I wouldn't mind a change like this, but this would be a massive buff to Swarm Hosts. Instead of spawning, say, 2000hp worth of free units every 25s, you're now spawning 2000hp worth of free units every 15s. Swarm hosts would be a little bit closer to the action and thus more vulnerable, but tanks would be literally pinned in place, unable to unsiege and reposition before the next volley of locusts.
Whoa, with the nydus and aggressive setup, this looks pretty much like the way I always wanted to see swarm hosts used! I guess I gotta stalk Symbol now ... Thanks for posting!
Yes, it makes me wonder why zerg doesn't usually dot their side of the map with nydus worms in these stalemate situations considering they're great transportation and not terribly expensive in late-game.
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