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On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote:
So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat.
Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting.
Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer
I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes  The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS.
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I just lose PvP every time. I have no idea what strategy to use. I'm silver. do people have suggestions for midgame comps and/or openings
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On January 07 2013 06:40 DBS wrote:
I just lose PvP every time. I have no idea what strategy to use. I'm silver. do people have suggestions for midgame comps and/or openings
One strategy I use is I go 1 gate stargate, expand, add two gates. Make 3 oracles, scout with one of them or with a hallucination. If he's on two bases and there's nothing too scary looking, attack the natural while using the oracles to harass his workers in his main at the same time. At gold level at least there's a good chance you'll either destroy the natural or kill many many probes. Bring your MsC to recall after doing the necessary damage, and then macro, taking a third base when you feel safe doing so. Making void rays after the three oracles is probably a good idea, they're really really strong PvP. Your economic advantage should be big enough to win the final battle.
Once I came close to losing when he attacked me with a strong gateway-only army when I was about to leave. I lost my natural but saved most of my probes, and then kept his army out of my main with force fields. During that time my Oracles killed all but 3 of his probes and I ended up winning a few minutes later.
Of course I'd get crushed at a higher level but if you're silver it should get you to gold at least.
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India465 Posts
http://drop.sc/294141
PVP game - Just before the fite I had almost 30 food more than him and still loss  PLease help
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Okay, in PvP lately I've been playing against 1gate into 1 Oracle into phoenix. I do not see any way to defeat this build without doing the same thing. Any type of robo play leaves you horribly off versus the Oracle, and if you open twilight you are in a hard spot with the nerf to blink, and the MSC when is uses the nexus cannon. I've even tried opneing Oracle into voids but that loses when you lose your Oracle to phx but cant kill theirs.
It seems even worse then when 4gate was all that was used because now, all that happens is SG openings which seem so strong. The voids rays are so good against any anti air now its very hard to punish with the standard 6gate timing against SG opening like you would in wol.
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On January 13 2013 06:17 jcroisdale wrote:
Okay, in PvP lately I've been playing against 1gate into 1 Oracle into phoenix. I do not see any way to defeat this build without doing the same thing. Any type of robo play leaves you horribly off versus the Oracle, and if you open twilight you are in a hard spot with the nerf to blink, and the MSC when is uses the nexus cannon. I've even tried opneing Oracle into voids but that loses when you lose your Oracle to phx but cant kill theirs.
It seems even worse then when 4gate was all that was used because now, all that happens is SG openings which seem so strong. The voids rays are so good against any anti air now its very hard to punish with the standard 6gate timing against SG opening like you would in wol.
Aren't oracles kinda terrible vs stalkers? I've tried different air openings in PvP, and it seems that only the old phoenix opening works still.
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On January 12 2013 16:02 vahgar.r24 wrote:http://drop.sc/294141 PVP game - Just before the fite I had almost 30 food more than him and still loss PLease help
edit: This was also a PvZ not a PvP but gave my opinion anyway.
Well firstly you were behind him about 50 food. He was maxed you were at 155/200. But nontheless, he caught you off guard and got a better concave on your army. FF went down a bit late, but the main reason for losing is because of the lack of splash damage you had with your army. Also being 50 food behind hurts as well. Pick your battles better though.. don't over commit to a position were your FF can't help you escape if needed. Also try to get a spotter or an observer so you know where his army is so you're not caught off guard like that.
tl;dr:
1. Spotter unit / Observer
2. Positioning
3. FF
4. Splash Damage
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On January 13 2013 06:45 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:17 jcroisdale wrote:
Okay, in PvP lately I've been playing against 1gate into 1 Oracle into phoenix. I do not see any way to defeat this build without doing the same thing. Any type of robo play leaves you horribly off versus the Oracle, and if you open twilight you are in a hard spot with the nerf to blink, and the MSC when is uses the nexus cannon. I've even tried opneing Oracle into voids but that loses when you lose your Oracle to phx but cant kill theirs.
It seems even worse then when 4gate was all that was used because now, all that happens is SG openings which seem so strong. The voids rays are so good against any anti air now its very hard to punish with the standard 6gate timing against SG opening like you would in wol.
Aren't oracles kinda terrible vs stalkers? I've tried different air openings in PvP, and it seems that only the old phoenix opening works still.
You only get one oracle and basically it does the equivalent of four phoenix. In that it forces you to keep stalkers in your mineral lines, but instead of the four phx you can do it for the cost of one oracle. From there you can either mass stalker which loses fairly hard against someone who goes into robo which they should since they should have map control/and equal scouting.
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In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed.
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On January 13 2013 09:37 Mirosuu wrote:
In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed.
We're all trying to find this out. What I've found so far is that on some maps, you simply can't. If there is a lot of air around you base where Tempest can hang and shoot without stalkers being able to reach, then there is nothing you can do.
But on other maps, a heavy stalker, archon and collosus mix works pretty well. Your archons can tank a lot of tempest damage, while you're collosus will deal with any kind of ground army your opponent might have on top of his air units quite quickly (If he has none, then don't bring any). I haven't tested it very scientifically yet, but I do believe stalkers win vs tempest in cost for cost battle up to a certain point. So if you can get it down to that, you should be golden. If he gets a 200/200 army with pure tempest and carriers, I don't think you can straight up deal with it. Try expanding a ton to get ahead economically, so you can bring the fight to him, and remax on stalkers and archons right away again. (Its not long ago where I was in a 6base PvP match where this exact scenario came up. I kept him on 3 (eventually 4 bases) by sending zealots to harass constantly (the problem with air is that its not very effective at dealing with harass over a large number of bases), while taking half the map as quickly as possible. Even so I have to throw 3x 200/200 army at him in rather quick succession before he finally bowed under).
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On January 13 2013 10:32 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:37 Mirosuu wrote:
In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed. We're all trying to find this out. What I've found so far is that on some maps, you simply can't. If there is a lot of air around you base where Tempest can hang and shoot without stalkers being able to reach, then there is nothing you can do. But on other maps, a heavy stalker, archon and collosus mix works pretty well. Your archons can tank a lot of tempest damage, while you're collosus will deal with any kind of ground army your opponent might have on top of his air units quite quickly (If he has none, then don't bring any). I haven't tested it very scientifically yet, but I do believe stalkers win vs tempest in cost for cost battle up to a certain point. So if you can get it down to that, you should be golden. If he gets a 200/200 army with pure tempest and carriers, I don't think you can straight up deal with it. Try expanding a ton to get ahead economically, so you can bring the fight to him, and remax on stalkers and archons right away again. (Its not long ago where I was in a 6base PvP match where this exact scenario came up. I kept him on 3 (eventually 4 bases) by sending zealots to harass constantly (the problem with air is that its not very effective at dealing with harass over a large number of bases), while taking half the map as quickly as possible. Even so I have to throw 3x 200/200 army at him in rather quick succession before he finally bowed under).
Mix in some storm and morph them into Archons. You could through in some warp prism harass since his air army tends to not be able to be in two places at once.
What I've done so far is zealot/archon/stalker some storm and a handful of my own tempest and it's generally a micro battle with the tempests. Make sure you battle at watch towers or have an observer over (or near) his army (if possible) and one with your own. Having the watchtower makes your tempests 10x more effective. Use the boosted sight range to abuse the tempest range.
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India465 Posts
On January 13 2013 07:26 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:edit: This was also a PvZ not a PvP but gave my opinion anyway. Well firstly you were behind him about 50 food. He was maxed you were at 155/200. But nontheless, he caught you off guard and got a better concave on your army. FF went down a bit late, but the main reason for losing is because of the lack of splash damage you had with your army. Also being 50 food behind hurts as well. Pick your battles better though.. don't over commit to a position were your FF can't help you escape if needed. Also try to get a spotter or an observer so you know where his army is so you're not caught off guard like that. tl;dr: 1. Spotter unit / Observer 2. Positioning 3. FF 4. Splash Damage
Thanks dude - yes having an observer would have helped a bit. Also will lower my graphics settings to ensure that I lag out on FF lol
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I just started playing the beta...when do people usually get their mothership core?
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On January 13 2013 10:32 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:37 Mirosuu wrote:
In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed. We're all trying to find this out. What I've found so far is that on some maps, you simply can't. If there is a lot of air around you base where Tempest can hang and shoot without stalkers being able to reach, then there is nothing you can do. But on other maps, a heavy stalker, archon and collosus mix works pretty well. Your archons can tank a lot of tempest damage, while you're collosus will deal with any kind of ground army your opponent might have on top of his air units quite quickly (If he has none, then don't bring any). I haven't tested it very scientifically yet, but I do believe stalkers win vs tempest in cost for cost battle up to a certain point. So if you can get it down to that, you should be golden. If he gets a 200/200 army with pure tempest and carriers, I don't think you can straight up deal with it. Try expanding a ton to get ahead economically, so you can bring the fight to him, and remax on stalkers and archons right away again. (Its not long ago where I was in a 6base PvP match where this exact scenario came up. I kept him on 3 (eventually 4 bases) by sending zealots to harass constantly (the problem with air is that its not very effective at dealing with harass over a large number of bases), while taking half the map as quickly as possible. Even so I have to throw 3x 200/200 army at him in rather quick succession before he finally bowed under).
Ahh, I see.
I did attempt to play it like I would vs mech, with mass expansions and overproducing gateways for enough macro for the follow-up attack.
I think most of why I lost is the massive chunk of my army I lost due to pathing on star station. I didn't expect my units to go a certain way, went back to macro and add on more production and take a 4th, and by the time I reacted, I'd lost half of my army. I think this is why I couldn't keep up after that.
He opened phoenix to prevent me going for collosus in any capacity. I am of the opinion that I shouldn't build collosus if he already has phoenix out due to being quite a problem to keep them alive in small numbers if the player using the phoenix is good, especially if you split your stalker force up to keep your mineral lines alive.
When I played the game, I felt that he was vulnerable at certain times when he was on 2 base, so I might try and go over any replays of it and see whether I can produce a timing to exploit that kind of weakness when opening air -> air composition.
Has anyone attempted a 2 base blink stalker all-in once you detect he's going void rays off of a stargate opening? (to me, seeing void rays on 2 base and a light gateway force means mass air)
I feel it would be quite strong against it, but I've not tried it yet. Not played enough protoss to get practice trying out timings against it.
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lately i lost to a guy doing MASS mines as T.... what the hell do i do?
I play Protoss and i had quite a deathball and some voids but they seem to destroy everything...
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marines counter every non-aoe unit in the game
you need storms or colossi (or both)
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On January 13 2013 23:36 WeedRa wrote:
lately i lost to a guy doing MASS mines as T.... what the hell do i do?
I play Protoss and i had quite a deathball and some voids but they seem to destroy everything...
Mass mines you just have to get your observer(Or two or four) out and move your army slower. Scout ahead pick off the mines one by one. Patience is a huge key to dealing with mines. If you have your deathball up your collosi should be able to snipe mines from a very safe distance. Even with tons of them, just don't get frustrated and rush your whole army in.
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On January 13 2013 15:40 LuckyMacro wrote:
I just started playing the beta...when do people usually get their mothership core?
Day9 did a piece on this. If I recall, I believe the correct time was as you put down your expansion nexus (so it will have 100 energy by the time it's complete). You could get it earlier if you wanted to be aggressive with it like the blink build (PvP)
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how do you deal with hellbats+tanks+vikings composition in the midgame? hellbats are like super strong now :|
i usually open with oracles + expand, then tech into storms + chargelots + voids. when i see mech i add immortals to the mix. but i lost every single time vs hellbats (even if i do decent damage in early)
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On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote:
So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat.
Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting.
Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS.
Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra.
@ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different.
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EPT
