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On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote:
So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat.
Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting.
Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes  The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different. Thanks for posting that. I'm definitely gonna give it a go. I've been getting completely rolled by Zerg trying Stargate but I wasn't doing it properly.
And yeah, I was quite good at holding mutas in WoL but not knowing how fast they are, I tried doing the same style of defense (blink into storm) and got completely crushed. Stalkers simply cannot keep up anymore and can't do the kind of damage you need when mutas have that good of regen. Even storm feels useless against a good zerg because they only stay in the storm for a fraction of a second. My first game against an actual good zerg going mutas felt embarrassingly bad, but that was because up to that point all the zergs I had played were terrible. Once you start hitting Master and top Diamond zergs it gets scary because they can actually macro while controlling mutas and you can be put far behind really fast. I'm definitely going to be trying double stargate and possibly getting the range upgrade now. I can't even imagine how good they will be in the hands of a pro.
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How are people playing PvT nowadays? I used to love doing early gateway pressure while teching up - but I have no idea how to play it nowadays (thanks to WM & instant siege mode tanks) without resorting to just being defensive and play a snoozefest macro style, which is frankly pretty boring =/
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On January 16 2013 18:33 Zealot Lord wrote:
How are people playing PvT nowadays? I used to love doing early gateway pressure while teching up - but I have no idea how to play it nowadays (thanks to WM & instant siege mode tanks) without resorting to just being defensive and play a snoozefest macro style, which is frankly pretty boring =/
Try White-Ra style (Day9 have a daily on it), where you open stargate while expanding and teching over to collosus. If he's going mech, you can transition over to skytoss after.
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On January 16 2013 18:40 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:33 Zealot Lord wrote:
How are people playing PvT nowadays? I used to love doing early gateway pressure while teching up - but I have no idea how to play it nowadays (thanks to WM & instant siege mode tanks) without resorting to just being defensive and play a snoozefest macro style, which is frankly pretty boring =/
Try White-Ra style (Day9 have a daily on it), where you open stargate while expanding and teching over to collosus. If he's going mech, you can transition over to skytoss after.
Hmm, thanks for the suggestion - will look into it!
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On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote:
So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat.
Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting.
Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different.
I dunno about all that. All tech routes + a mothership core that usually has 200 energy makes a lot of things possible. If you don't go phoenix, you're definitely aiming to win a base trade game, though. If you miss your timing, it's over. I'm still going all tech routes, but I have started pumping out phoenixes from 1 stargate, no matter what. I hate making 2 early robos or stargates. I'd rather just get a head start on production and remain flexible. You might be thinking, aha, he can't deal with mutas without stargates, but honestly, the main reason for it is kinda absurd to think about.. It's swarm hosts. I can't stand playing against swarm host play, and, for some reason, phoenixes seem to be the best counter. Even when they have the hydra/host combination, I like to just go in with the phoenixes and lift all of the hosts before they're about to spawn more locusts.
But yeah, if you have around 6 phoenixes before they even have any mutas, then that's better/less chancy than a base trade scenario. Even against mutas, I never really got blink stalkers that fast. I just tried to have an archon or two and stalkers at each location. The extra regen on mutas makes turtle play kinda depressing. I feel sorry for people using storm.
I'm curious as to how people are dealing with swarm hosts and the different combinations involving them. Also, am I the only one that's terrified of ultras? Doesn't matter if I have the map and am maxed, it seems like you have to play so cautiously. Like make sure you can reinforce with like 4 stargates pumping void rays, have multiple robos making immortals, and have all of your bases mass cannoned up, etc, etc. Reminds me way too much of playing t vs z in BW. That's was one of the reasons I was happy to choose Toss  Ultra, baneling is something else.
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On January 16 2013 20:09 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote:
So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat.
Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting.
Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different. I dunno about all that. All tech routes + a mothership core that usually has 200 energy makes a lot of things possible. If you don't go phoenix, you're definitely aiming to win a base trade game, though. If you miss your timing, it's over. I'm still going all tech routes, but I have started pumping out phoenixes from 1 stargate, no matter what. I hate making 2 early robos or stargates. I'd rather just get a head start on production and remain flexible. You might be thinking, aha, he can't deal with mutas without stargates, but honestly, the main reason for it is kinda absurd to think about.. It's swarm hosts. I can't stand playing against swarm host play, and, for some reason, phoenixes seem to be the best counter. Even when they have the hydra/host combination, I like to just go in with the phoenixes and lift all of the hosts before they're about to spawn more locusts. But yeah, if you have around 6 phoenixes before they even have any mutas, then that's better/less chancy than a base trade scenario. Even against mutas, I never really got blink stalkers that fast. I just tried to have an archon or two and stalkers at each location. The extra regen on mutas makes turtle play kinda depressing. I feel sorry for people using storm. I'm curious as to how people are dealing with swarm hosts and the different combinations involving them. Also, am I the only one that's terrified of ultras? Doesn't matter if I have the map and am maxed, it seems like you have to play so cautiously. Like make sure you can reinforce with like 4 stargates pumping void rays, have multiple robos making immortals, and have all of your bases mass cannoned up, etc, etc. Reminds me way too much of playing t vs z in BW. That's was one of the reasons I was happy to choose Toss Ultra, baneling is something else.
Ultras are not as good as they are vs terran. As P, a typical skytoss wrecks any ultra dependent build. If you see an early cavern, commit more to VRs. You'd obviously be concerned about hydras at this stage, so mix Hts into your composition. Save your energy unless you know they're going to commit to a fight, since hydras can EASILY dodge storms and they're the only real threat to a skytoss composition. You could also use timewarp and slow followed by several carpet storms. If you're still using a robo based build, a ratio of 5stalkers to 1 immortal is very powerful especially if you save time warp as they attack with ultras. Frankly, sky protoss is a very very powerful build atm, and while quite difficult to achieve, you should opt for them vs Z for the highest change of winning a large engagement. If you're stubborn and love micro, twilight council opening with upgraded gateway with storms and immortals work very well vs hydra/roach compositions.
For swarm hosts, the Z in mid game can only get so many of them and because of their general immobility and since it's a large investment, it's quite safe to get blink stalker/collossi that deal with SH/roach reasonably well and corruptors won't really be an issue around 13-14 min. Since the investment in SH is already too great, it's difficult for Z to quickly build counters to a collossi which creates a good timing for you to snipe a base or deny one. Expo as you see fit as well.
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On January 16 2013 21:54 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:09 playa wrote:On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote:
So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat.
Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting.
Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different. I dunno about all that. All tech routes + a mothership core that usually has 200 energy makes a lot of things possible. If you don't go phoenix, you're definitely aiming to win a base trade game, though. If you miss your timing, it's over. I'm still going all tech routes, but I have started pumping out phoenixes from 1 stargate, no matter what. I hate making 2 early robos or stargates. I'd rather just get a head start on production and remain flexible. You might be thinking, aha, he can't deal with mutas without stargates, but honestly, the main reason for it is kinda absurd to think about.. It's swarm hosts. I can't stand playing against swarm host play, and, for some reason, phoenixes seem to be the best counter. Even when they have the hydra/host combination, I like to just go in with the phoenixes and lift all of the hosts before they're about to spawn more locusts. But yeah, if you have around 6 phoenixes before they even have any mutas, then that's better/less chancy than a base trade scenario. Even against mutas, I never really got blink stalkers that fast. I just tried to have an archon or two and stalkers at each location. The extra regen on mutas makes turtle play kinda depressing. I feel sorry for people using storm. I'm curious as to how people are dealing with swarm hosts and the different combinations involving them. Also, am I the only one that's terrified of ultras? Doesn't matter if I have the map and am maxed, it seems like you have to play so cautiously. Like make sure you can reinforce with like 4 stargates pumping void rays, have multiple robos making immortals, and have all of your bases mass cannoned up, etc, etc. Reminds me way too much of playing t vs z in BW. That's was one of the reasons I was happy to choose Toss Ultra, baneling is something else. Ultras are not as good as they are vs terran. As P, a typical skytoss wrecks any ultra dependent build. If you see an early cavern, commit more to VRs. You'd obviously be concerned about hydras at this stage, so mix Hts into your composition. Save your energy unless you know they're going to commit to a fight, since hydras can EASILY dodge storms and they're the only real threat to a skytoss composition. You could also use timewarp and slow followed by several carpet storms. If you're still using a robo based build, a ratio of 5stalkers to 1 immortal is very powerful especially if you save time warp as they attack with ultras. Frankly, sky protoss is a very very powerful build atm, and while quite difficult to achieve, you should opt for them vs Z for the highest change of winning a large engagement. If you're stubborn and love micro, twilight council opening with upgraded gateway with storms and immortals work very well vs hydra/roach compositions. For swarm hosts, the Z in mid game can only get so many of them and because of their general immobility and since it's a large investment, it's quite safe to get blink stalker/collossi that deal with SH/roach reasonably well and corruptors won't really be an issue around 13-14 min. Since the investment in SH is already too great, it's difficult for Z to quickly build counters to a collossi which creates a good timing for you to snipe a base or deny one. Expo as you see fit as well.
"Skytoss" is lame and is probably going to get nerfed, so I obviously don't care to start out "skytoss," even if I have a lot of phoenixes. And ofc, I get that transitioning to an all air army against ultras is kinda ideal. I haven't been losing to ultras, it's just that I've been playing such a turtle/passive style, despite having 4x the army and expo's, as ultras wreck everything on the ground. If you open skytoss and your opponent is depending on ultras, maybe he's blind.
As for swarm hosts, I'd like to see some replays or something. I always make colossi and stalkers (maybe get blink too late), but it never seems cost efficient for me. The "counter" to colossi kinda seems to be just make more swarm hosts than they can make colossi. When it comes to corrupters, I'm usually more afraid of all of my observers getting sniped than colossi.
I've heard incontrol refer to swarm hosts as early-mid game broodlords. I'm sure that's largely in part to the spawning of free units, but it does feel like an apt comment. If they get a decent number of swarm hosts, it seems to be over, at least in my games. And, I just can't stop that from happening without phoenixes. Hats off to you.
And it's not just about the number of swarm hosts, but the progress of the swarm hosts. Much like in BW t vs z versus defilers, delaying their progress towards your bases seems paramount. With any kind of 3 base play, I don't know how you can feel comfortable venturing out that far without phoenixes.
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Would it be viable to get like 4-6 oracles and try to snipe hatcheries mid-lategame?
Or just focus on drones and queens and move to next expo instead?
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Are there any guides on going skytoss? ......I cant win a game vs zerg atm.
IM trying everything...and even when i get ahead ill lose to hydra roach or mass muta.
Anyone else having a really hard time vs zerg atm?
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On January 19 2013 08:12 Whindog wrote:
Are there any guides on going skytoss? ......I cant win a game vs zerg atm.
IM trying everything...and even when i get ahead ill lose to hydra roach or mass muta.
Anyone else having a really hard time vs zerg atm?
Yeah Mutas are a bitch, I go for 2Base all-ins again, whenever I scout 2Base Zerg just get stargate and scout with halluc.
Hydra Roach still loses to Colossi, if they get Corruptors add Void Rays.
Edit: If you want to make Skytoss work you should try to get your third up really early, like 1 Gate Stargate 3rd while blocking some entrance with gateways early. With the MsC and VoidRays/Oracles you can hold off aggression pretty ez.
And Cannons are your friends with Skytoss, on most maps you want at least 4 or 5 in a line at the spot where Zerg will attack.
Cannons Zealot/Sentry and Air units is actually quite strong.
I think Skytoss CAN work but you have to be very careful and get up enough Gateways and Cannons as well as scout good (like look around his base at 10:30ish for his Lair tech and check again at 11ish if he canceled or not)
Stuff like that is pretty vital.
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Is there a general strategy to dealing with quick Roach/Hydra pushes with speed upgraded Hydras? I feel like other than going straight into colossus, there isn't really a safe way to right now, and if I go colossus I get completely leveled by roach/hydra/viper. Hydras are so good against gateway units.
PvZ was my best matchup in Wings of Liberty but in HOTS I feel completely lost and useless at it. I win almost every PvT, and most PvPs, but I have something like 4 in 20 W/L for PvZ. I am winning against high diamond and low master Terran and Protoss players then losing to gold and platinum zergs. It's not going well.
Seriously, if I don't figure something out to last through to the late game I am just gonna start 7gating with a mothership core which would probably win me way more games because most zergs are playing so greedy in HOTS.
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Hey, Protoss guys. Early game, is there really any downside to sending your MSC over to the Zerg base to time warp his mineral line and gas? It happens to me sometimes and it looks like one of those "why the hell not?" things.
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It really depends on the sense of style you want to give out to your opponent. If you plan on being aggressive and reveal this early on, you might prompt the zerg to prepare earlier for aggression than what you'd like.
I did send my MsC out quite a lot previously, but e.g. if I do a tech build *cough*Oracle*cough* with a later Nexus, I might want to keep my MsC home to defend against any aggression or attempts to cancel my expand, and then maybe send out my MsC in conjunction with Oracles to increase the firepower against queens or as a bait\additional harass.
Intentions aside, how much does a timewarp damage your economy?
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IMO Timewarp doesn't damage enough to warrant exposing your expo - BUT there is a nice "timing" with a zealot, stalker and MsC if you open gate-expand. In this case you can park the MsC above the stalker and let it shoot away while harassing or you can drive it into the Zerg main while poking natural with zealot-stalker. Use Timewarp in all scenarios here...
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Just curious, whats the average game time for you guys in PvT? My last 5 PvT's all took 25+ minutes.. Its so boring (at least for me) when Terrans just turtle up with mines/tanks/thors/vikings which forces you to go Skytoss, build up a deathball of tempest/carriers..
I find it pretty lame that no sort of gateway pressures work anymore because MSC can't detect and siege mode doesn't need research =/ I mean, I'm not trying to QQ, but right now I feel you are almost always forced into Skytoss late game in all matchups (well, maybe not PvP, not sure).
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^^ Zealot Lord, I think a lot of it is the lousy maps in HoTs right now. On the older, smaller maps like Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom, you can put pressure on in mid-game with Immortals and Void Rays plus Gateway units to make it difficult for them to take a fourth or Blink Stalkers to harass the third. But maps like Akilon Wastes, Newkirk, and Korhal are just so big and the first 3 bases so easy to defend that there's nothing to do but death ball to mass tempests and high templars, especially since they'll probably be getting turrets plus a planetary fortress at every expansion. If anybody has alternative suggestions, I'm all ears.
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Hi guys ! I play HotS on mid masters level and I can't make sense of PvP since they removed detection from the MScore.
Stargate openings are now very vulnerable to DTs. DT rushes come earlier than in WoL, to a point where it's difficult to have also a robo up when DTs arrive. Chronoboosting an Oracle is not a solution because the build time is too slow, and keeping one Oracle in your base just for detection is too big an investment in the early game.
Robo openings are now even weaker against stargate with all the VR metagame going on. Phoenix and Oracles will also deal a ton of damage to a robo opening, so it does not feel viable anymore at all.
I tried 2 gate FE (2 zealot 5 stalker FE, then MScore and robo), but it can die to blink and is not completely safe vs DTs (especially if you make MScore and an immortal first from your robo to help defend blink...)
The thing is, each opening is very vulnerable to another opening (worse than in WoL), and I have a hard time scouting what he does until it's too late. I see standard 2 gases early on, then his stalker chases my probe away, and I have no way to know if he makes rock, paper or scissors in sufficient time to respond.
What do you think guys ? Is there any eco oriented opening that could be safe against everything ?
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I think I disagree with your notion of Oracle being too expensive of an detection against dt. You said yourself that Stargate tech does really well against everything except DT's, and that means that the more expensive detection is the price you pay. In WoL Stargate didn't even have the option of fending off DT's, so people had to go double tech, many times before expand. Now you can actually expand and hold out, stalker voidray zealot does really well against counter-attacks in the case of Robo, and Oracle gives you the flexibility to harass him if he moves out. Imo, between oracles and void rays, Stargate is almost perfectly safe. Oracles does not take too long to build, I'm pretty sure they take roughly the same speed to build as observers before observer build speed was buffed, and DT's weren't really broken back then either.
EDIT: DTs are usually most efficient when they are in a timing, which means that Oracles should most likely not be able to harass his mineral line, as he's probably putting all his stalkers there, while sending out the DT's.
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Oracle build time is 50 seconds, which means that you cant chronoboost it out as soon as you spot DTs, it's already too late. Before patch, observer build time was 40 seconds which was also pretty long, but dark shrine was more expensive too.
Now, what you say is interesting, i thought that Oracle just for detection was too expensive, but it's still less expensive than a robo + obs just for detection.
Building it consumes stargate production time, which is not good news but i might give it a try !
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How exactly does Recall work?
I select my Core, R, select unit (only one?!), select nexus ?
I would prefer to have a better visualisation of the radius my units have to be in for the recall.
I tried to click the nexus on minimap but either i misclick or it takes forever 
Is there a way to make it "easier" ?
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EPT
