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On January 23 2013 04:17 WeedRa wrote:How exactly does Recall work? I select my Core, R, select unit (only one?!), select nexus ? I would prefer to have a better visualisation of the radius my units have to be in for the recall. I tried to click the nexus on minimap but either i misclick or it takes forever  Is there a way to make it "easier" ?
No need to select a unit, just hit R when you have the MSC selected and it will teleport the MSC and every unit near to it to the Nexus you target (it's quite easy to hit the Nexus on the mini map). There is no radius displayed by the recall ability, but you get a feel for it very fast. Hint: it's smaller than you typically wish for, so you need to clump your units right before
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am I the only one who's struggling to make oricals work ?
..some games you just kill all the workers, but if someone scouts you.. or just plays cautiously you can shut them down pretty quickly and easily and then after the early game push with them they just seem like these super fragile supply blockers..
I've found that phonex are just better in everyway... yeah they might not be able to insta kill a mineral line but you can't just shut them down with some AA and have them be useless as in battles they can lift tanks/immortals/hydra's and prevent or limit muta's....
am I the only one here ?? without the time warp they just seem to have no place mid-game unless you go robo-less and use them for detection
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On January 22 2013 20:43 Tharkun wrote:
Hi guys ! I play HotS on mid masters level and I can't make sense of PvP since they removed detection from the MScore.
Stargate openings are now very vulnerable to DTs. DT rushes come earlier than in WoL, to a point where it's difficult to have also a robo up when DTs arrive. Chronoboosting an Oracle is not a solution because the build time is too slow, and keeping one Oracle in your base just for detection is too big an investment in the early game.
Robo openings are now even weaker against stargate with all the VR metagame going on. Phoenix and Oracles will also deal a ton of damage to a robo opening, so it does not feel viable anymore at all.
I tried 2 gate FE (2 zealot 5 stalker FE, then MScore and robo), but it can die to blink and is not completely safe vs DTs (especially if you make MScore and an immortal first from your robo to help defend blink...)
The thing is, each opening is very vulnerable to another opening (worse than in WoL), and I have a hard time scouting what he does until it's too late. I see standard 2 gases early on, then his stalker chases my probe away, and I have no way to know if he makes rock, paper or scissors in sufficient time to respond.
What do you think guys ? Is there any eco oriented opening that could be safe against everything ?
I think 2 gate FE is the only safe opening now, which is problematic. Stargate puts you behind against DTs and cheap players who go phoenix before oracle. DTs risk a base race against another DT player. I always go observer first before making Immortals, and chrono boost the observer. With the photon overcharge, you'll still have enough time to get the first immortal out. I can only think of one occasion where fast DTs gave me a problem, and that was a micro error on my part. The first 3 stalkers can go to the opponent's natural and back again before an oracle, DT, or 2nd phoenix arrives at your base. The only issues I've found are 4gates, weird 3gate pressures, warp prism 4gates, and hidden Stargates so the oracle gets to your base faster, but those can all be scouted.
My exact build order after core is:
2nd gateway
Stalker
Warpgate Research
2nd Gas
Pylon
Stalker
Stalker
Mothership Core
Nexus
Robo
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does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition?
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On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote:
does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition?
Theorycrafting ahead:
No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO.
A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets.
Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal.
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United States4991 Posts
On January 23 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote:
does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? Theorycrafting ahead: No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO. A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets. Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal.
I don't really agree with this at all. Oracles are in no way a cost-effective way of fighting bio - Marines will eat them up far too quickly. Oracles were a useful supplement to your army when they had Time Warp, but now that they don't, they're pretty useless against Bio other than potentially harassing their base.
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so would a standard templar transistion be good? what im doing is 1 gate stargate expo into 3 oracles, then i guess i can try teching into strorm
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On January 23 2013 05:26 FlyingBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 20:43 Tharkun wrote:
Hi guys ! I play HotS on mid masters level and I can't make sense of PvP since they removed detection from the MScore.
Stargate openings are now very vulnerable to DTs. DT rushes come earlier than in WoL, to a point where it's difficult to have also a robo up when DTs arrive. Chronoboosting an Oracle is not a solution because the build time is too slow, and keeping one Oracle in your base just for detection is too big an investment in the early game.
Robo openings are now even weaker against stargate with all the VR metagame going on. Phoenix and Oracles will also deal a ton of damage to a robo opening, so it does not feel viable anymore at all.
I tried 2 gate FE (2 zealot 5 stalker FE, then MScore and robo), but it can die to blink and is not completely safe vs DTs (especially if you make MScore and an immortal first from your robo to help defend blink...)
The thing is, each opening is very vulnerable to another opening (worse than in WoL), and I have a hard time scouting what he does until it's too late. I see standard 2 gases early on, then his stalker chases my probe away, and I have no way to know if he makes rock, paper or scissors in sufficient time to respond.
What do you think guys ? Is there any eco oriented opening that could be safe against everything ? I think 2 gate FE is the only safe opening now, which is problematic. Stargate puts you behind against DTs and cheap players who go phoenix before oracle. DTs risk a base race against another DT player. I always go observer first before making Immortals, and chrono boost the observer. With the photon overcharge, you'll still have enough time to get the first immortal out. I can only think of one occasion where fast DTs gave me a problem, and that was a micro error on my part. The first 3 stalkers can go to the opponent's natural and back again before an oracle, DT, or 2nd phoenix arrives at your base. The only issues I've found are 4gates, weird 3gate pressures, warp prism 4gates, and hidden Stargates so the oracle gets to your base faster, but those can all be scouted. My exact build order after core is: 2nd gateway Stalker Warpgate Research 2nd Gas Pylon Stalker Stalker Mothership Core Nexus Robo
Nice, this is less gas heavy than the SaSe's 2 Gate FE, it might be just what i need.
I feel that SaSe's build does not really apply to HotS..
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On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote:
does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition?
What i use at the moment works pretty well, since i have 70% win ratio in PvT (and about 40% in other MUs  )
My plan is to open with a very fast stargate, prepare a chargelot/oracle timing push at 10:00 on 2 bases while teching to storm, then transition to colossus in the late game.
In detail, it's 1 gate stargate opening : 2nd gas at 19, stalker as first gateway unit, stargate as soon as stalker is out, drop nexus while stargate builds, then oracle rallied straight to their base to see what we can kill. Continue oracle production, while going to 3 gates total, then twilight. Pause temporarily oracle production to research charge (chronoboost it), then resume. Go up to 6 gates and move out with ~10 zealots and ~5 oracles. While moving out, get 2 gases at your expansion and templar archives for storm. Warp a round of zealots near their base with a proxy pylon and attack. Make sure that zealots are in front, so that his bio will target zealots first and not oracles.
Oracles will eat marines, and marauders are pretty useless. I often kill them right there. In case it does not work, you have storm ready and can continue on to the late game.
You can see what it looks like from terran point of view on this archive from painuser stream at 10:29:30 http://fr.twitch.tv/painuser/b/359116229 :p
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On January 23 2013 12:15 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote:
does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? Theorycrafting ahead: No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO. A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets. Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal. I don't really agree with this at all. Oracles are in no way a cost-effective way of fighting bio - Marines will eat them up far too quickly. Oracles were a useful supplement to your army when they had Time Warp, but now that they don't, they're pretty useless against Bio other than potentially harassing their base.
Sorry, you made me realize I missed out unit composition. I knew I was missing something.
Yes, the ideal comp should be zealot/sentry and 3 oracles pushin out around 10-15 min mark.
Strategy:
Engage in open ground split up the army with FF and have oracles come in when marines are targeting firing the sentries.
You've pushed the opponent in a catch-22 situation.
Choose between killing the sentries and have oracles in the base killing ur doods OR sentries to keep splitting up your army.
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On January 23 2013 12:15 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote:
does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? Theorycrafting ahead: No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO. A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets. Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal. I don't really agree with this at all. Oracles are in no way a cost-effective way of fighting bio - Marines will eat them up far too quickly. Oracles were a useful supplement to your army when they had Time Warp, but now that they don't, they're pretty useless against Bio other than potentially harassing their base.
I don't think you've quite tried the strength of oracles over a ground army yet. Oracles are glass canons, so they will need a ground army with them. But they shred bio like nothing if they can sit and shoot in peace. Try having 5-6 oracles over your ground army and watch those poor marines disappear.
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PvZ continues to be a complete mystery to me. People talk of this mythical late-game air army but I just keep getting completely stomped by roach/hydra timings that seem impossible to stop (like worse than when roach max first gained popularity). I had a zerg 8pool me, do no damage and then still win with that push with 2/2. With how stupidly huge these maps are it seems impossible to punish anything now. Like do I literally just have to turtle hardcore or something? No pressure?
Edit: Holy crap those new voidrays are good. I just went mass voidray/immortal/HT/Tempest against a meching Terran and those things dissolved their tankline in like 3 seconds. The button press charge seems so good.
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so i got placed in bronze in hots a while back since i was playing with all the units during the placements, i was wondering if there are some good one base all ins that can help me get back to high diamond/masters
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laddering agaisnt bronze people is very boring and a waste of time
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If your level is so above bronze league, i bet you will get promoted to gold or plat in a couple dozen games.
No need to resort to cheesy builds.
If your level is not so great, cheesing is no way to improve.
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PvT: 1base Robo 3gate pushes (assuming bio play, dunno about mech, but should be efficient there as well)
PvZ: 2base Gateway all-ins, maybe the newer Warp Prism +1 zealot harass into delayed immortals sentry
PvP: Mothership 2gate stalker + oracle harass pressure. (force units to the ramp with your mothership etc, and then kill his mineral line.)
On Oracles
After checking out a few build order by Seed, I saw a 15 double gass stargate opening -> expand -> straight into 1 forge charge storm PvT. I found out that after not being able to harass the terran anymore with oracles, I'd just use them to poke around and use the aoe parasite spell to keep tabs on his army. Could also be used for other tasks such as scouting for drops and expands. But I would definately not recommend using them for combat if you're at a high level, marines will focus them down too quickly, and it's not that it's because the unit is straight up bad at killing MM, it's rather the opportunity cost of building 5-7 oracles that will let terran sit there and focus them. The resources are much better invested in upgrades, archons, templars and chargelots. It's simply too much gas going into Oracles if you're going to use them that way. 2 Oracles is a good number to have for scouting and poking, generally support roles.
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On January 26 2013 03:06 TokO wrote:
PvT: 1base Robo 3gate pushes (assuming bio play, dunno about mech, but should be efficient there as well)
PvZ: 2base Gateway all-ins, maybe the newer Warp Prism +1 zealot harass into delayed immortals sentry
PvP: Mothership 2gate stalker + oracle harass pressure. (force units to the ramp with your mothership etc, and then kill his mineral line.)
On Oracles
After checking out a few build order by Seed, I saw a 15 double gass stargate opening -> expand -> straight into 1 forge charge storm PvT. I found out that after not being able to harass the terran anymore with oracles, I'd just use them to poke around and use the aoe parasite spell to keep tabs on his army. Could also be used for other tasks such as scouting for drops and expands. But I would definately not recommend using them for combat if you're at a high level, marines will focus them down too quickly, and it's not that it's because the unit is straight up bad at killing MM, it's rather the opportunity cost of building 5-7 oracles that will let terran sit there and focus them. The resources are much better invested in upgrades, archons, templars and chargelots. It's simply too much gas going into Oracles if you're going to use them that way. 2 Oracles is a good number to have for scouting and poking, generally support roles.
yeah maybe, but im not sure two oracles would be better than getting say, 3 phonex's ??
becasue they are harder to shut down than oracles and have more use (picking up tanks etc) later on in the game than Oracles...
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Well, at that point you are arguing about details, and I would disagree with your suggestion, although you bring up a valid point.
In my scenario, I was 1) considering a T playing Bio, so tanks are not necessarily a big threat. Tanks are generally not a big threat against chargelot archon regardless.
2) In the case of a weak defense against harass, or an early move-out, the oracles will do a lot more scv damage.
This is the whole point, you open oracles to take use of their early game utility of the phase beam. And then in the midgame, you use envision? to predict his movements, you can just pop in and use the spell on his army, and you'll have vision on it for a minute. This gives you a way more clear way of having guaranteed vision, which will help you greatly in defending your third. Observers can be sniped by scans.
I do not see how phoenixes are more difficult to shut down than oracles, they both have a really high movement speed. Phoenixes for vision would require a lot more apm as you don't have a spell that gives you vision on their army for a minute.
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What's everyone opening with PvZ, gateway expos or FFE? I started doing 1 gate/core expos with MSC sent over to harass zergs into a 4 gate +1 poke with recall if necessary. I was having a lot of success with it initially but I think it was because every zerg is so used to FFE that they dunno what to do. If you start getting flooded with slings one slip in your defense and the game pretty much snowballs from there.
Since then I've been FFE'ing but basically losing every game to a roach/hydra max attack as I'm trying to saturate my third. Even if you get colossus out roach/hydra can trade really well, and building walls actually end up hurting a lot against this. I swear, if I lose another game because all my chargelots die while running around my wall at my third...I've been doing nexus first/ffe into stargate, 4 gates, + 1 attack, a robo into expo so extremely standard stuff. But when I try to take my third I just have such trouble holding for some reason and I just die. Or if I manage to get to lategame the zerg just turtles and gets up to ultras and just crushes my whole army and I die in the transition to air. PvZ feels worse than it did in WoL for me
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On January 23 2013 05:23 baldgye wrote:
am I the only one who's struggling to make oricals work ?
..some games you just kill all the workers, but if someone scouts you.. or just plays cautiously you can shut them down pretty quickly and easily and then after the early game push with them they just seem like these super fragile supply blockers..
I've found that phonex are just better in everyway... yeah they might not be able to insta kill a mineral line but you can't just shut them down with some AA and have them be useless as in battles they can lift tanks/immortals/hydra's and prevent or limit muta's....
am I the only one here ?? without the time warp they just seem to have no place mid-game unless you go robo-less and use them for detection
Try proxy stargate in PvP or PvT . I usually do it most of the time when I want to use oracles, most of the times it works (in plat-diamond league) sometimes minimal damage to enemy. Then transition depending on what the opponent is making.
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EPT
