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GMarshal Note: I was just going to close this as per the subforum rules, instead I have made it into the HotS Protoss Help me thread. Same rules as the thread in SC2 strategy apply. Keep all advice grounded in reality, and ask any Protoss related question you need help with here.
+ Show Spoiler [original OP] +I have been having some trouble with Zerg. Not to say there OP or anything but I'm finding them hard to deal with, So I am creating this thread because I can't find many HoTS build orders so I would like to see if people have any air based builds that are somewhat refined. I would prefer that it would use some of the new units. I would like a flat out build order not just a unit list. Please don't posts any stupid builds or any cheeses.
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If I were you I would look at one of the established WoL airbuilds such as the 4gate SG early aggro, 5-phoenix styles or the airtoss off 3base. HotS isn't changed enough to make a 'early' mothership viable, so I'd rather just get a strong 2-base economy and maybe get the MsC around 5-6 min when you're worried about various all-ins etc.
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On November 18 2012 06:54 TokO wrote: If I were you I would look at one of the established WoL airbuilds such as the 4gate SG early aggro, 5-phoenix styles or the airtoss off 3base. HotS isn't changed enough to make a 'early' mothership viable, so I'd rather just get a strong 2-base economy and maybe get the MsC around 5-6 min when you're worried about various all-ins etc. Yeah I was basically meaning builds that use oracle/tempest. like oracle harass with a tempest follow up. or something like that
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I know, but basically, follow some solid economical fast expo into air builds on WoL, because the build orders are 'figured' out, and then just build oracles and tempests instead of whatever other units they would build.
I don't think there are any good builds currently tailored for what you want, I assume that people primarily just wing it atm.
Day9 has a good recent daily on refining builds, maybe you should make your own skeleton and try use his method to make a good build for the purpose you are searching for
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I found if I open stargate-oracle, I just usually end up dying by roaches or a fast spire. So I usually open normal robo- 3 base. then Get a stargate to get oracles to snipe structures.
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On November 18 2012 07:29 raf3776 wrote: I found if I open stargate-oracle, I just usually end up dying by roaches or a fast spire. So I usually open normal robo- 3 base. then Get a stargate to get oracles to snipe structures. That happens to me if I stargate in PvZ. but it pvp I go 3 gate star gate fast expo then into robo . I use oracle and tempest from the stargate to harass and they usually commit to stalkers to kill my air and then I switch into usually a double robo and get a ton of sentry stalk immortal. and thats usually enough to kill them off.
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Are there any replays of Protoss players doing stalker + core pressure vs zerg? I'd really like to see how that plays out, it sounds really cool.
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On November 18 2012 16:07 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Are there any replays of Protoss players doing stalker + core pressure vs zerg? I'd really like to see how that plays out, it sounds really cool. Idk I think its hard to pull off so there probably isn't many replays. you can watch videos of white ra if your looking for HoTS protoss videos. I'd say hes probably one of the best HoTS protoss's right now
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How are you guys dealing with Swarm Hosts contain? They go fairly quick Lair and set up a contain outside my front with 6 or so swarm hosts and a ton of lings. With the lings protecting the hosts I can't out dps the lings+broodlings. And the zerg slowly inches forward until the broodlings are in range of my expo and it's lights out.
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On November 24 2012 18:01 nonsequitur wrote: How are you guys dealing with Swarm Hosts contain? They go fairly quick Lair and set up a contain outside my front with 6 or so swarm hosts and a ton of lings. With the lings protecting the hosts I can't out dps the lings+broodlings. And the zerg slowly inches forward until the broodlings are in range of my expo and it's lights out.
As stupid as it sounds, rushing for carrier off two base is pretty good against this.
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Edit: Oh crap. Wrong thread. This was supposed to go into the IEM Singapore one!
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I've been starting to do some Core-Stalker aggression into 7gate charge archon with warp prism multiprong attacks. I've had some success, but haven't met swarm hosts yet.
Responses I've met:
Ling\Hydralisks -> Chargelot Archon Storm handles this. Mutalisk -> Storm + Blink instead of chargelot\archon. Roach\Infestors -> Buy time with storm and feedback, but should transition to stalker colossus if you see him making a spine wall.I didn't do this and ended up losing to broodlord infestor. Roaches -> Normal composition does well against this if you keeps pressure on his economy (ideally you've cancelled his third).
I haven't met any top tier zergs yet, so my experiences have little value, but if you guys are in diamond, you might experience the same stuff.
The thing I like about TC is that you have much more room for going out on the map and put pressure on the zerg, in contrast to Stalker Colossus where you really have to have a critical mass of stalkers\3colossus.
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Alright, so for the people who is looking for a build, I just quickly got together a short build for 5-Stalker Pressure into TC. I'm not coining it as my own or anything as it is pretty standard stuff. I have not tested this on ladder, but I did wing the same style of build a couple of times, and it seemed efficient then. It's not a counter to all build, you might get smashed, take it for what it is. I tried listing a few pros and cons of the build. So enjoy ^^
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uNkyEaruhw75Y9z_NajWT7nLIy-vRt7JOFHpyFl0zHQ/edit
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9 pylon 13 gate -cyber core asap 16 pylon 17 gas x2 22 gate 24 star gate 32 nexus.
Chrono probes, 2x zealot + mother ship core, pressure and snipe creep tumours and run home once you prevented creep.
Oracle - void ray - Phoenix .
Should be able to snipe the 3rd due to prevention of creep earlier, if he gone speeding expo (gas 1st) then you need to get cyber and quick sentry then follow up with forge, carry on with the basic build.
Hide a probe to sac at 5mins mark, you need to know I he's gone fast 3rd or 2 base play both require different approaches at 7mims hallucinate an Phoenix to see what he tech is.
Hope that some help
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What are you guys doing vs zerg? I'm clueless as to what to do against swarm hosts openings. Does the immortal/sentry expand still work against them? Immortals do nothing against ling/sh but I feel I have to go immortals or I die to a roach max. I don't find colossus to be useful. Against 6+ swarm hosts they do nothing, and against roach/hydra/viper abduct renders them useless.
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United States22154 Posts
I'm repurposing this thread
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Hi, i'm a diamond terran player in WoL, and i'd like to switch to protoss in hots, and i have absolutely no idea how to play protoss. Can please some one teach me some basics build and tips to improve cause i'm totaly lost in hots( even in terran and zerg)
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has anybody tested mass oracle play + zealot HT support vs MMM? just did some tests and it is insanely strong if you combine timewarp + storm + 29 DPS to light units + zealots connecting way better thanks to timewarp. would love to see this work ^^
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
@Sprite
I'm in the same boat man, so here's the guides I'm using to learn Protoss - they are all Stargate builds because that's what I like and that's what has gotten the new and improved units.
PvP - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381717 (note, the tip in this guide to get air upgrades after warpgate, and cancel later if you find out he isn't going stargate, is amazingly useful because you often will get in a stargate vs stargate battle in HotS)
PvZ gateway expand > stargate - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361740 (I feel like gateway expands are stronger now with the utility of the MSC).
PvT I don't know, I can't find any good stargate guides so I don't really have a build.
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On December 09 2012 23:51 Decendos wrote: has anybody tested mass oracle play + zealot HT support vs MMM? just did some tests and it is insanely strong if you combine timewarp + storm + 29 DPS to light units + zealots connecting way better thanks to timewarp. would love to see this work ^^
Time Warp is good but you have to open up with templar tech and add the oracles later. Fast oracles against T will just make you die, because they have so low HP any kind of focus fire from marines just rapes them.
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Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD
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On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD
Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me.
I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D
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On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D
Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore.
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On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore.
Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs.
The other build I find quite strong is: FFE -> 4Gate +1 pressure -> Void Rays while taking third -> Skytoss
Pretty cool, the 4Gate +1 will deal immense damage to a Muta player without Roach warrant (winning the game right there) The Void Rays will deal with a Roach counter attack. Stargates are pretty nice to have against Mutas. Skytoss seems to destroy Zergs right now. VR so good!
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On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. The other build I find quite strong is: FFE -> 4Gate +1 pressure -> Void Rays while taking third -> Skytoss Pretty cool, the 4Gate +1 will deal immense damage to a Muta player without Roach warrant (winning the game right there) The Void Rays will deal with a Roach counter attack. Stargates are pretty nice to have against Mutas. Skytoss seems to destroy Zergs right now. VR so good!
i just got beta few days ago and already this is what im starting to lean towards. The old 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure build with a third behind it. In wol it used to be a bit of a problem trying to take a fast third with air superiority as with enough roaches and lings you could basically just ignore the air units, but with the airtoss buff and mothership core, I think fast thirds off of stargate seem a lot more safe.
although I get a robo anyway because playing airtoss with some templar support, you bank so many minerals that making tonnes of warp prisms and suiciding zealots is really useful. It's pretty much the rsvp style of stalkerless (was it colrsvp or kxcd?) pvz that i remember reading about and trying before in wol, but now seems even stronger with new air units.
if the other player is not going muta how many oracles do you make? I haven't played enough to judge the different cost-effectiveness of different skytoss compositions, do you want oracles versus hydra, or do you just make enough oracles to harrass and then make void rays.
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Assuming you open with a gate expand and a double stargate for oracle harass (pretty good to deny a 3rd or kill it) and transition into skytoss, if the Zerg reacts by mass hydras, what do you do? Storms?
I tried collossi but still lost the two games I m refering to. Granted I had a lot of mismanagement but still the new hydralisk can close in much faster and the guy I played with was very good at surrounding me/ attacking me in the middle of the map, thereby nullyfying my FF use.
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On December 22 2012 00:30 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. The other build I find quite strong is: FFE -> 4Gate +1 pressure -> Void Rays while taking third -> Skytoss Pretty cool, the 4Gate +1 will deal immense damage to a Muta player without Roach warrant (winning the game right there) The Void Rays will deal with a Roach counter attack. Stargates are pretty nice to have against Mutas. Skytoss seems to destroy Zergs right now. VR so good! i just got beta few days ago and already this is what im starting to lean towards. The old 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure build with a third behind it. In wol it used to be a bit of a problem trying to take a fast third with air superiority as with enough roaches and lings you could basically just ignore the air units, but with the airtoss buff and mothership core, I think fast thirds off of stargate seem a lot more safe. although I get a robo anyway because playing airtoss with some templar support, you bank so many minerals that making tonnes of warp prisms and suiciding zealots is really useful. It's pretty much the rsvp style of stalkerless (was it colrsvp or kxcd?) pvz that i remember reading about and trying before in wol, but now seems even stronger with new air units. if the other player is not going muta how many oracles do you make? I haven't played enough to judge the different cost-effectiveness of different skytoss compositions, do you want oracles versus hydra, or do you just make enough oracles to harrass and then make void rays.
I really think if you want Skytoss to work you need to use the excess minerals to build Cannons.
I usually get 3 Oracles off of 1 Stargate and try not to lose them. If you make more Oracles and Zerg gets extra Queens and Spores he can kill you while you try to take the third. That obviously also depends on how much damage the first push did.
Also I think Air + Warp Prisms should not work. Zerg will get Infestor/Hydra Corruptor and Spores, that will shut down WP harass.
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On December 22 2012 01:27 WGT-Baal wrote: Assuming you open with a gate expand and a double stargate for oracle harass (pretty good to deny a 3rd or kill it) and transition into skytoss, if the Zerg reacts by mass hydras, what do you do? Storms?
I tried collossi but still lost the two games I m refering to. Granted I had a lot of mismanagement but still the new hydralisk can close in much faster and the guy I played with was very good at surrounding me/ attacking me in the middle of the map, thereby nullyfying my FF use.
I tried double Stargate Oracle. A good Zerg will just get a lot of Spores and then kill you. I know it is a lot of fun when it works but in the long run that will not be viable.
I get only 3 Oracles, scout with halluc Phoenix and try to get fast Carriers with lots of Cannons at the attack path. (map dependent but mostly at third) I get 6-8 VRs off of 2 and then 3 Stargates while building fleet beacon.
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On December 22 2012 05:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:27 WGT-Baal wrote: Assuming you open with a gate expand and a double stargate for oracle harass (pretty good to deny a 3rd or kill it) and transition into skytoss, if the Zerg reacts by mass hydras, what do you do? Storms?
I tried collossi but still lost the two games I m refering to. Granted I had a lot of mismanagement but still the new hydralisk can close in much faster and the guy I played with was very good at surrounding me/ attacking me in the middle of the map, thereby nullyfying my FF use. I tried double Stargate Oracle. A good Zerg will just get a lot of Spores and then kill you. I know it is a lot of fun when it works but in the long run that will not be viable. I get only 3 Oracles, scout with halluc Phoenix and try to get fast Carriers with lots of Cannons at the attack path. (map dependent but mostly at third) I get 6-8 VRs off of 2 and then 3 Stargates while building fleet beacon. do you get templar tech before late game, or do you just try and hold off hydras with the air and mass cannon?
On December 22 2012 05:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:30 ThePianoDentist wrote:On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. The other build I find quite strong is: FFE -> 4Gate +1 pressure -> Void Rays while taking third -> Skytoss Pretty cool, the 4Gate +1 will deal immense damage to a Muta player without Roach warrant (winning the game right there) The Void Rays will deal with a Roach counter attack. Stargates are pretty nice to have against Mutas. Skytoss seems to destroy Zergs right now. VR so good! i just got beta few days ago and already this is what im starting to lean towards. The old 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure build with a third behind it. In wol it used to be a bit of a problem trying to take a fast third with air superiority as with enough roaches and lings you could basically just ignore the air units, but with the airtoss buff and mothership core, I think fast thirds off of stargate seem a lot more safe. although I get a robo anyway because playing airtoss with some templar support, you bank so many minerals that making tonnes of warp prisms and suiciding zealots is really useful. It's pretty much the rsvp style of stalkerless (was it colrsvp or kxcd?) pvz that i remember reading about and trying before in wol, but now seems even stronger with new air units. if the other player is not going muta how many oracles do you make? I haven't played enough to judge the different cost-effectiveness of different skytoss compositions, do you want oracles versus hydra, or do you just make enough oracles to harrass and then make void rays. I really think if you want Skytoss to work you need to use the excess minerals to build Cannons. I usually get 3 Oracles off of 1 Stargate and try not to lose them. If you make more Oracles and Zerg gets extra Queens and Spores he can kill you while you try to take the third. That obviously also depends on how much damage the first push did. Also I think Air + Warp Prisms should not work. Zerg will get Infestor/Hydra Corruptor and Spores, that will shut down WP harass.
I think its really hard for zerg to have every angle covered, theres almost always a way in thats not covered by a spore, and it's also the indirect damage the warp prism does. If he has his hydras, infestors, corrupters in his base trying to defend me just burning excess minerals, then he can't be attacking me. Also I am of the opinion that in any matchup once you are on 3 bases you should always have a warp prism just to able to make any sudden attack you want to do as strong as possible with fast reinforcements (e.g. if your opponent attacks into you and loses and you go counter), but thats just how i like to play.
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do you get templar tech before late game, or do you just try and hold off hydras with the air and mass cannon? You defenitely want to get Templars eventually the faster the better. For me that really depends on the game and how far ahead/behind I feel as well as how I think my opponent will play.
I think its really hard for zerg to have every angle covered, theres almost always a way in thats not covered by a spore, and it's also the indirect damage the warp prism does. If he has his hydras, infestors, corrupters in his base trying to defend me just burning excess minerals, then he can't be attacking me. Also I am of the opinion that in any matchup once you are on 3 bases you should always have a warp prism just to able to make any sudden attack you want to do as strong as possible with fast reinforcements (e.g. if your opponent attacks into you and loses and you go counter), but thats just how i like to play.
Yeah, I just walk my Zealots into his expansions. But I mostly use that to distract and clear creep in the middle etc.
Still, 2 patrolling Corruptors will shut down WP. And I also don't want to give Zerg any reason to get Corruptors But I just started playing hots again so maybe I will incorporate that lateron.
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Is anyone else having trouble with the new medivac drops? I'm getting ripped in pieces because of those supercharged medivacs. I'd appreciate any tips on stopping em. Should I just mass cannons and have a templar at each basse?
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@jhlee yeah templar help in the late game, and a few cannons can buy you some time. But try to make sure you have the watch towers, and I like to put pylons around paths that drops are likely to com so you can see them before they get to your main or expo. Sometimes having a DT shrine helps too because often the terran wont notice dts against his drop (at least at my level).
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On December 22 2012 15:19 jhlee820 wrote: Is anyone else having trouble with the new medivac drops? I'm getting ripped in pieces because of those supercharged medivacs. I'd appreciate any tips on stopping em. Should I just mass cannons and have a templar at each basse?
Faster Medivacs basically means that you have less time to react. You can either practice watching the minimap some more or you need more vision. Other than that the drops are exactly the same until the medivac upgrade.
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Does anybody have a good way to FFE on howling peak or should I just gateway expand in PvZ there?
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On December 23 2012 07:30 rEalGuapo wrote: Does anybody have a good way to FFE on howling peak or should I just gateway expand in PvZ there?
You can FFE on Howling Peak by making your wall at the nexus but I just veto that map along with Star Station. Getting a 3rd on Star Station is almost impossible due to how wide open it is.
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Any advice against that 2/2 Medivac timing? Absolutely brutal.
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What openings are you guys doing in PvZ and PvP? I feel like if I dont robo, I auto lose most of my games.
The problem, mostly vs Zerg is if I robo they juts roll me over with their superior economy before I can get a good composition out. If I play safe, I get they ( Z ) take the map, if I play aggressive they always seem to have just enough to hold the old immortal sentry atk on 3rd.
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On December 27 2012 02:14 Hiwashi wrote: What openings are you guys doing in PvZ and PvP? I feel like if I dont robo, I auto lose most of my games.
The problem, mostly vs Zerg is if I robo they juts roll me over with their superior economy before I can get a good composition out. If I play safe, I get they ( Z ) take the map, if I play aggressive they always seem to have just enough to hold the old immortal sentry atk on 3rd. PvP: FXOz's 3gate Pressure (all-in variant) PvZ: FFE, +1 Zealots/Oracle --> fast third --> Tempest/Void Ray --> Templar
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On December 09 2012 23:51 Decendos wrote: has anybody tested mass oracle play + zealot HT support vs MMM? just did some tests and it is insanely strong if you combine timewarp + storm + 29 DPS to light units + zealots connecting way better thanks to timewarp. would love to see this work ^^
Yes, playing at WoL masters level, this is incredibly hard to fight effectively. If i play Terran, i'd normally lose because you will need impeccable ghost control. The priority here is to drain oracle energy and because they can't be sniped, landing emps on a unit that almost moves as fast a phoenix is a challenge. Either i land my emps, remove their energy for timewarp or watch my units die because if the limited micro (slow movespeed). Also, while the caduceus reactor is great, however, the sheer AOE of a typical collossus&ht supported chargelot ball is amplied because storms now do almost up to 60 dmg, mitigating the extra benefits of that upgrade. Sniping Hts are harder as well since oracles can timewarp forward ghosts which instantly die to a small group of forward zealots, so in a typical game, doing this old maneuver is far more riskier, unless you pray the protoss does not have observers to detect cloaked ghosts.
My typical build follows the WoL meta of TvP with emphasis on faster upgrades (cc 1st into 3 rax + 2x ENG) with bulk of my first 9 min army consisting of marines and research on the caduceus reactor starts at 14-16, after my 2nd starport is built. I don't use helbats even vs zealot heavy comps because they're not micro-friendly and they die too fast and become even more immobile (queen off-creep) under time-warp. I obviously adapt to what i scout, but the general direction is bio centric since mech is underwhelming in terms of cost efficiency and falls easily to immortal/collossus/vr comps.
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I have yet to see a single Viper yet. All the Zergs I play either go Roach + Hydra (sometimes w/ Infestor), Roach Infestor Broodlord Corruptor just like in WoL, or some kind of Swarm Host Roach Overseer contain.
The problem is, when going Roach + Hydra or any kind of build that relies heavily on Hydra, Colossus is the "natural counter" to hydralisks and Corrupters still deal with Colossi 10x better than Vipers can, and Vipers don't morph into Broodlords at Tier 3. I see this as one of those units like the Raven that has uses, but other units simple perform them much better so they never get used.
Edit: Howling Peaks and Star Station should be automatic vetoes for ANY Protoss playing ladder. They are extremely bad maps for Protoss, and I'm pretty sure they'll be gone by full release anyway. The only players that like them are Zergs. But then again, the ideal Zerg map would just be a giant wide-open arena with no terrain and nothing to forcefield units behind/into except for mineral lines and buildings. Maybe they should just play on those unit test maps.
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On December 27 2012 08:21 JackReacher wrote: I have yet to see a single Viper yet. All the Zergs I play either go Roach + Hydra (sometimes w/ Infestor), Roach Infestor Broodlord Corruptor just like in WoL, or some kind of Swarm Host Roach Overseer contain.
The problem is, when going Roach + Hydra or any kind of build that relies heavily on Hydra, Colossus is the "natural counter" to hydralisks and Corrupters still deal with Colossi 10x better than Vipers can, and Vipers don't morph into Broodlords at Tier 3. I see this as one of those units like the Raven that has uses, but other units simple perform them much better so they never get used.
What? How are Corruptors better than Vipers when dealing with Colossus? With Vipers, every Colossus gets abducted and focus fired down instantly at the start of the battle. Not to mention you'll only need a few vipers instead of 10+ corruptors. Vipers also provide Blinding Cloud instead of being wasted supply after the Colossi have gone down.
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just a masters level player here..
lol i can't find a composition against roach hydra with couple viper mixes. 3rd base timing attacks are completely gone because of 2- 3 vipers.
since colosi become useless and breaks the forcefield when abducted by viper, its impossible to fight max roach hydra army without AOE. what am i supposed to do?! lol make high templar against mass roaches?!.
it's frustrating. Protoss does not have much late game tools in HOTS where as zerg have new late game units that counters all protoss strategy from WOL.
YES protoss strategy from WOL must not work in HOTS but what is there to add or modify?! Protoss ground base mid/lategame in HOTS is still the same.
Help please
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On December 27 2012 03:57 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 23:51 Decendos wrote: has anybody tested mass oracle play + zealot HT support vs MMM? just did some tests and it is insanely strong if you combine timewarp + storm + 29 DPS to light units + zealots connecting way better thanks to timewarp. would love to see this work ^^ Yes, playing at WoL masters level, this is incredibly hard to fight effectively. If i play Terran, i'd normally lose because you will need impeccable ghost control. The priority here is to drain oracle energy and because they can't be sniped, landing emps on a unit that almost moves as fast a phoenix is a challenge. Either i land my emps, remove their energy for timewarp or watch my units die because if the limited micro (slow movespeed). Also, while the caduceus reactor is great, however, the sheer AOE of a typical collossus&ht supported chargelot ball is amplied because storms now do almost up to 60 dmg, mitigating the extra benefits of that upgrade. Sniping Hts are harder as well since oracles can timewarp forward ghosts which instantly die to a small group of forward zealots, so in a typical game, doing this old maneuver is far more riskier, unless you pray the protoss does not have observers to detect cloaked ghosts. My typical build follows the WoL meta of TvP with emphasis on faster upgrades (cc 1st into 3 rax + 2x ENG) with bulk of my first 9 min army consisting of marines and research on the caduceus reactor starts at 14-16, after my 2nd starport is built. I don't use helbats even vs zealot heavy comps because they're not micro-friendly and they die too fast and become even more immobile (queen off-creep) under time-warp. I obviously adapt to what i scout, but the general direction is bio centric since mech is underwhelming in terms of cost efficiency and falls easily to immortal/collossus/vr comps.
This sounds really really cool in theory but i think the control required will make it hard even for pretty good masters players.
The speed difference between oracles and HT is gonna be hard to juggle. You mis micro either for a 2nd and both will just disappear to marine dps.
This is the kind of stuff i would love to see pro's do though. HotS just seems to require so much more apm. It can be overwhelming at times but i think the korean pros will really pull away.
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On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. Do you have replays or a VOD for this timing? The 3-colossi push in WoL doesn't hit until close to 16 minutes usually (although if you go for a fast enough third you can do it at about 15 minutes, but only just in my experience and waiting for a 4th Colossi would push you out past 16).
EDIT: Also, in HotS air-toss is kindof amaizing. Carrier-Skillray/Phoenix (depending on enemy comp)-oracle-HT-Zealot is pretty amazing, if super micro-intensive. I normally open with a couple of oracles then a void ray or phoenixes, depending on what I scout. Then I tech to carriers whilst massing zealots and canons with my spare mins and get HTs (and eventually archons).
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On December 27 2012 14:52 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. Do you have replays or a VOD for this timing? The 3-colossi push in WoL doesn't hit until close to 16 minutes usually (although if you go for a fast enough third you can do it at about 15 minutes, but only just in my experience and waiting for a 4th Colossi would push you out past 16). EDIT: Also, in HotS air-toss is kindof amaizing. Carrier-Skillray/Phoenix (depending on enemy comp)-oracle-HT-Zealot is pretty amazing, if super micro-intensive. I normally open with a couple of oracles then a void ray or phoenixes, depending on what I scout. Then I tech to carriers whilst massing zealots and canons with my spare mins and get HTs (and eventually archons). I second that about skytoss. Just pure zealot ground army with carrier/VR wastes roach/hydra thanks to the VR ability (add HT later). I feel that now you don't have to waste all that gas on sentries and stalkers to fight even with roach AND you can take way earlier 3rd thanks to Photon Overcharge.
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Yea I agree 4 colosi at 13 mins with the 3rd base up is toooo fast even with 2 robos. unless u juiced and risked your tech. ( assuming the zerg doesn't do anything about the 3rd and the toss does not make a single immortal)... not to mention if zerg went mutas. it's an auto lose.
Im starting to think airtoss is the answer for roach hydra and viper mix.
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On December 27 2012 14:52 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. Do you have replays or a VOD for this timing? The 3-colossi push in WoL doesn't hit until close to 16 minutes usually (although if you go for a fast enough third you can do it at about 15 minutes, but only just in my experience and waiting for a 4th Colossi would push you out past 16). EDIT: Also, in HotS air-toss is kindof amaizing. Carrier-Skillray/Phoenix (depending on enemy comp)-oracle-HT-Zealot is pretty amazing, if super micro-intensive. I normally open with a couple of oracles then a void ray or phoenixes, depending on what I scout. Then I tech to carriers whilst massing zealots and canons with my spare mins and get HTs (and eventually archons).
I used to do this a lot, about a month ago. I would open up 4 sentry WP drop while taking a quick third (you scout the number of gases so mass roach gets ruled out) while third gets up I get a second Robo and Bay, go with 4 Colossi and 2 more on the way. Hit before hive unless I messed up. I don't have any of the replays/VODs, I'm sorry
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On December 28 2012 03:08 StarcracK wrote: Yea I agree 4 colosi at 13 mins with the 3rd base up is toooo fast even with 2 robos. unless u juiced and risked your tech. ( assuming the zerg doesn't do anything about the 3rd and the toss does not make a single immortal)... not to mention if zerg went mutas. it's an auto lose.
Im starting to think airtoss is the answer for roach hydra and viper mix.
The "problem" is that you have to go skytoss from the start.
Right now PvZ is pretty similar to WoL in one fact: if Z stalls till hivetech, P is gonna have problems. Then Skytoss is the difference.
Still, if the Z is good, he will scout the skytoss, take an eco lead (since you can't push fast as skytoss), and start strading armies or roaches for Nexus/carriers, and still be ahead. Is a tough call tho. One thing I'm pretty sure, is that in the average map, Tempest just suck compared to carriers (as most P's expected).
The problem with the classic 8:30-10:00 3rd into Collosi push is that now Blink kinda sucks vs mutas. So, again, skytoss seems good. But again, I'm pretty sure skytoss strats have lots of weaknesess. At least Z's usually take lot of time before they realize those things...
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Speaking as a diamond-live, plat-beta protoss, I've completely cut colossi out of my timing. I now use a mix of void rays, high templars, archons, chargelots and immortals as my lategame composition - with HTs / archons replacing the anti-hydra AOE, and immortals becoming the mainstay vs roaches instead. Chargelots act as a buffer for the squishy HTs as well as the immortals.
The primary issue with this comp is waiting too long before engaging, as superior numbers of corruptors coupled with BLs will completely roll over you (as VR / storm provides your primary AA). I suspect a lategame transition to carrier / VR / tempest / storm might be the answer, with tempests sniping infestors.
On December 28 2012 03:48 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 03:08 StarcracK wrote: Yea I agree 4 colosi at 13 mins with the 3rd base up is toooo fast even with 2 robos. unless u juiced and risked your tech. ( assuming the zerg doesn't do anything about the 3rd and the toss does not make a single immortal)... not to mention if zerg went mutas. it's an auto lose.
Im starting to think airtoss is the answer for roach hydra and viper mix. The "problem" is that you have to go skytoss from the start. Right now PvZ is pretty similar to WoL in one fact: if Z stalls till hivetech, P is gonna have problems. Then Skytoss is the difference. Still, if the Z is good, he will scout the skytoss, take an eco lead (since you can't push fast as skytoss), and start strading armies or roaches for Nexus/carriers, and still be ahead. Is a tough call tho. One thing I'm pretty sure, is that in the average map, Tempest just suck compared to carriers (as most P's expected). The problem with the classic 8:30-10:00 3rd into Collosi push is that now Blink kinda sucks vs mutas. So, again, skytoss seems good. But again, I'm pretty sure skytoss strats have lots of weaknesess. At least Z's usually take lot of time before they realize those things...
Pure skytoss has 1 big weakness: hydras (and marines, but Z dont really make those, except when infested). Those die very handily to storm though, which is nice, as storm is also good vs mass muta (which you'll be facing a lot in hots).
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Hi, High masters toss here, I'm also struggling playing vs zerg, i've tried several army compositions, such as Skytoss or those collosus timing. When playing skytoss i died often to 3base mass hydra push as my storm tech wasnt ready yet and pure void rays/chargelots aren't enough even with this nexus cannon support. So i switched to wol meta, and now my build looks like Stargate->couple of phoenixes(6 or so) and one vr(i didn't try oracles yet)->twilight,second forge->robo->collsus(while third base)->timing with 2-2 few voidrays and collosus stalker sentry zealot ball->If game lasts longer i go void ray stalker stormers. In my opinon this build is pretty good, but sometimes i lose to early roach pushes vs my third base even with my voidray because that build is kinda greedy and my mechanics arent prefect. I can upload some replays me doing this but i have not face zerg on the ladder for last 15games(and tbh im happy bout that). Thats my few words, im thinking about doing some guide considering this build, but first let me know what do you think about this build.
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On December 28 2012 05:26 SalsaCookies wrote: Hi, High masters toss here, I'm also struggling playing vs zerg, i've tried several army compositions, such as Skytoss or those collosus timing. When playing skytoss i died often to 3base mass hydra push as my storm tech wasnt ready yet and pure void rays/chargelots aren't enough even with this nexus cannon support. So i switched to wol meta, and now my build looks like Stargate->couple of phoenixes(6 or so) and one vr(i didn't try oracles yet)->twilight,second forge->robo->collsus(while third base)->timing with 2-2 few voidrays and collosus stalker sentry zealot ball->If game lasts longer i go void ray stalker stormers. In my opinon this build is pretty good, but sometimes i lose to early roach pushes vs my third base even with my voidray because that build is kinda greedy and my mechanics arent prefect. I can upload some replays me doing this but i have not face zerg on the ladder for last 15games(and tbh im happy bout that). Thats my few words, im thinking about doing some guide considering this build, but first let me know what do you think about this build.
I think you need immortals.
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On December 28 2012 06:43 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:26 SalsaCookies wrote: Hi, High masters toss here, I'm also struggling playing vs zerg, i've tried several army compositions, such as Skytoss or those collosus timing. When playing skytoss i died often to 3base mass hydra push as my storm tech wasnt ready yet and pure void rays/chargelots aren't enough even with this nexus cannon support. So i switched to wol meta, and now my build looks like Stargate->couple of phoenixes(6 or so) and one vr(i didn't try oracles yet)->twilight,second forge->robo->collsus(while third base)->timing with 2-2 few voidrays and collosus stalker sentry zealot ball->If game lasts longer i go void ray stalker stormers. In my opinon this build is pretty good, but sometimes i lose to early roach pushes vs my third base even with my voidray because that build is kinda greedy and my mechanics arent prefect. I can upload some replays me doing this but i have not face zerg on the ladder for last 15games(and tbh im happy bout that). Thats my few words, im thinking about doing some guide considering this build, but first let me know what do you think about this build. I think you need immortals.
na, the new VRs are actually good at something other than being slow and that is shredding Roaches. Their DPs is a little lower than Immortals' but they still destroy Roaches PLUS the Roaches cannot hit them.
No Zerg will go for a lot of Roaches if you show 2 or more VRs!
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I guess the new pvp-metagame is: zealots, voids, archons, storm
So refreshing after 2 years of 1 base allins and colossi-wars.
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On December 28 2012 08:04 Awesomeness wrote: I guess the new pvp-metagame is: zealots, voids, archons, storm
So refreshing after 2 years of 1 base allins and colossi-wars.
it's a bit more complex than that
lategame PvP is like this:
void ray > tempest / colossus tempest > colossus colossus > blink stalkers blink stalkers > void ray / tempest
so you have to actually scout now.
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Are you sure about blink stalkers > void ray / tempest? It feels like void rays just destroy stalkers once you get enough of them and you can dump your minerals into chargelots who are obv. pretty good against them as well.
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depends on numbers, you need like... 8+ VRs for that to happen, more if the blink player is aggressively blinking forward / sniping VRs.
also, storm is just as bad in pvp as its always been
EDIT: also there's something a lot of people seem to forget: a VR heavy composition is actually fairly mineral heavy. 250-150.
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Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate. But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level. Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper
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On December 29 2012 01:10 rEalGuapo wrote: Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate. But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level. Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper
storm
EDIT: To elaborate: templar tech is the new colossus. With the advent of vipers, the increased amount of spire use and hydra speed @ lair, colossi in the midgame are no longer adequate unless you have massively gosu control / scouting.
What I've been doing is this:
zealot stalkerp poke -> void rays off 1 stargate -> robo / 3 gates -> third -> TC / 2nd forge -> templars, then storm. You have to get storm out FAST or you will die to midgame roach hydra pushes. You get charge, and do a 15 min timing consisting of +2/+2 chargelots, immortals, archons and VRs.
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On December 29 2012 01:10 rEalGuapo wrote: Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate. But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level. Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper I have plenty of success doing just that... Are you sure you're doing it right?
FFE +1 attack, 3-4 zealots out of 1 gate warp gate tech 1 stargate 2 more gates Oracle should be out by the time or soon after your zealots start their poke, don't get caught in bad position or just wait until Oracle there. Start your third and get a msc. +1 Zealot/Oracle will handle the third pretty easily. If you're conservative, you can dance on the rim of his base and wait for another Oracle and a zealot warp-in to come. Lings can't engage Oracle and +1 Zealots. On 3 early bases I'm still trying to find a efficient way to do it but I place 2 more stargates before I place extra gates, so it's usually 3gate/3stargate then 1 by 1 get 4 more gates. Get about 6 Void Rays before starting Fleet Beacon, harass with Oracles and just turtle. After third base has gasses taken do shields and air attack upgrades. You can be pretty aggressive with rays and zealot warpins while taking a 4th, just take your msc with you for the recall. Get carriers and charge, then finally get high templars.
This needs more work but usually opponents try to get roach/hydra and they lose because they made too many hydras and my zealots shred them, or they made too few and my air shreds them and the roaches. I need more experience with it though because a lot of the time I win with the zealot/oracle push.
Note: If you can't get the zealot/oracle timing right, skip the +1 and get earlier stargate, or try and double gas after FFE on time or early, or stagger gas 1 at 18, the other at 21-22.
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On December 29 2012 02:15 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 01:10 rEalGuapo wrote: Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate. But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level. Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper I have plenty of success doing just that... Are you sure you're doing it right? FFE +1 attack, 3-4 zealots out of 1 gate warp gate tech 1 stargate 2 more gates Oracle should be out by the time or soon after your zealots start their poke, don't get caught in bad position or just wait until Oracle there. Start your third and get a msc. +1 Zealot/Oracle will handle the third pretty easily. If you're conservative, you can dance on the rim of his base and wait for another Oracle and a zealot warp-in to come. Lings can't engage Oracle and +1 Zealots. On 3 early bases I'm still trying to find a efficient way to do it but I place 2 more stargates before I place extra gates, so it's usually 3gate/3stargate then 1 by 1 get 4 more gates. Get about 6 Void Rays before starting Fleet Beacon, harass with Oracles and just turtle. After third base has gasses taken do shields and air attack upgrades. You can be pretty aggressive with rays and zealot warpins while taking a 4th, just take your msc with you for the recall. Get carriers and charge, then finally get high templars. This needs more work but usually opponents try to get roach/hydra and they lose because they made too many hydras and my zealots shred them, or they made too few and my air shreds them and the roaches. I need more experience with it though because a lot of the time I win with the zealot/oracle push. Note: If you can't get the zealot/oracle timing right, skip the +1 and get earlier stargate, or try and double gas after FFE on time or early, or stagger gas 1 at 18, the other at 21-22.
I'm sorry but what Zerg loses their third base to 3-4 Zealots and an Oracle.. Usually you will meet 1 or 2 Queens and enough Lings to surround and kill all your Zealots. Or does this hit before 7 minutes? Can't really imagine that. . .
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Question about PvZ on Star Station here.
What have people been doing as their standard build on this map? It seems like such a screwy map in some ways - easy to FFE, but hard to Nexus first on the chance of close spawns. Securing a third is really tough also considering how open they are, and when I do, I've lost a lot to mass Muta play on it as well (even opening Stargate). Most of my wins there have come from silly 2 base all-ins and I don't like to play those as much, so what have you all been successful with?
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I think Stargate opening is must on this map. You then have to scout the gases. If he only takes 2-4 you should delay your third and get void rays.
Haven't lost against Mutas, I usually get phoenix, if I see Mutas I add another Stargate and get double Phoenix production going, by the time he reaches my base I have 6 and second Stargate almost done. No way his Mutas will do damage.
I still have problems with FFE on howling peak, I try to wall off nexus to ramp and place the cannon close to the nexus to protect the mineral line. However zergs either make a ton of Lings and kill me with it or they get a proxy hatch that blocks right at the ramp meaning I cannot wall off, killing me right there..
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Can anyone point me in the way of a build for PvP that is not 4gate? It seems like if I build oracles I die to 2 base collos push and if I go collos I die to oracle harass. Even with 3 cannons on each mineral line I lose a lot of probes to oracles if my opponent actually shift click targets the probes.
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hey, i'm sorry, but does the skytoss really works in pvz on master+ level? maybe i'm executing it badly, but i die to roach/hydra pushes every time or at least i fall really behind.
pvz was always my favourite matchup but i'm out of ideas in hots.
could you upload some pvz replays from high level play?
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On December 30 2012 20:09 Rife wrote: Can anyone point me in the way of a build for PvP that is not 4gate? It seems like if I build oracles I die to 2 base collos push and if I go collos I die to oracle harass. Even with 3 cannons on each mineral line I lose a lot of probes to oracles if my opponent actually shift click targets the probes.
3gate blink. Don't FE, don't let him FE. Expand when you feel safe, then go chargelot archon while adding in stalkers. Eventually add VRs + tempests if he goes lolossus.
except KC. just 4gate or veto there. it's the new TDA, you can't really stop a 4gate there without 4gating yourself.
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On December 30 2012 23:30 brudnychuj wrote:
hey, i'm sorry, but does the skytoss really works in pvz on master+ level? maybe i'm executing it badly, but i die to roach/hydra pushes every time or at least i fall really behind.
pvz was always my favourite matchup but i'm out of ideas in hots.
could you upload some pvz replays from high level play?
It does work, but it's best with Templar support. You need the AOE of Storm to deal with Hydralisks and they're also good for feedbacking Infestors and Vipers.
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On December 30 2012 23:30 brudnychuj wrote:
hey, i'm sorry, but does the skytoss really works in pvz on master+ level? maybe i'm executing it badly, but i die to roach/hydra pushes every time or at least i fall really behind.
pvz was always my favourite matchup but i'm out of ideas in hots.
could you upload some pvz replays from high level play?
skytoss has to be supplemented with HTs to deal with hydra and coruptors.
Something I seen whitera mess around with was a two oracle two void attack. He builds the oracles first and just sit till he has the first void so he can take down 1 spore and 1 queen with no losses. The second void he rallies over during this he is taking his third base. From there you can just add on fleet beacon and HTs.
I think its most viable on a map like Newkirk City or Akilon wastes where you forth bases are easy to take, since this is so gas intensive.
I dump my minerals into cannos and WP harass.
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I think the problem right now is that no-one is willing to listen to anyone who's not a GM player, and all the GM toss players on the beta are keeping their strats to themselves.
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Italy12246 Posts
I haven't played enough of the beta, but i'm thinking i'll do something along these lines when i get into it at the end of this season:
1) PvP: some kind of 3stalker into fast expand. I feel like between the msc and hallu scouting, fast expand openings will be pretty safe. If he's doing some sort of stargate play try to hit a blink timing, otherwise go into the the macro game...and here i guess i'll have to play around to know what to do. Assuming stargate is weak to timing attacks (is it?) and mass colossus is (finally) bad, i guess the best way to play might be zealot/archon/stalker with a fast ish third, or maybe 2base colossus into third kinda like in PvT in WoL. Any thoughts on this? Some team mates of mine say that void rays are pretty op right now, but can't you just react by going storm and/or phoenix?
2) PvT: pretty much what Perfect posted in his guide. 2base stargate vs mech, 2base templar vs bio. I think i will try to go 2star oracle instead of 2robo colossus when i take my third, is time warp+storm+pulsar beam enough to beat ghosts and/or the new medivacs? I guess with the speed boost, adding phoenixes to snipe the medivacs is probably not worth it. How does skytoss (ish) play do vs mech? I'm thinking, double star carrier/tempest/emergency void ray and phoenix in case of a push, with a bit of gateway force for support.
I think i'll also go either 16 double gas instead of 14/21 gas or even zeal/core/zeal in PvP and PvT to try and get a msc up asap without delaying my wg/stalker/whatever else.
3) PvZ: Probably some 4gate+stargate pressure with the msc to recall, into some stargate expand (pretty much how people immortal expand now), into templar, kind of like kcdc's/rsvp's old builds. I'll probably either expand or tech faster though. Pretty bw ish actually, so that sounds fun. I've tried oracles a bit, but i always run into people making 2-3 blind spores per base lol. The thing that scares the hell out of me is mutas, and that's kinda why i'll try the void ray pressure (i want to delay them as much as possible). Is having some kind of phoenix count already up mandatory? How scary are roach max and roach/hydra max on maps with open thirds?
Thoughts?
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@rEALGuapo: Howling Peak I'm pretty sure is a commonly vetoed map by Protoss players
@brudnychuj: Yes, I play Skytoss every PvZ. Like I said earlier, 1-2 Oracle and a few +1 zealots is a fast and cheap way to open vs Zerg and it allows you to place your 3rd relatively early. I haven't faced a single Roach max that was successful, and muta play is easily spot countered since phoenix is an easy switch. In fact I am winning most of my PvZ right now, and only lose if I am too slow in adding high templar to my air army and the opponent gets a good amount of hydra/roach/corruptor. Also, bad engagements and letting the game drag on without taking 4th, I'm guilty of that.
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I'm puzzled on how to deal with drops in the mid-late game PvT. I find that with the speed boost, not only do you have a very small window to see the drops coming but the speed boost also guarantees the medivacs take much less damage from any cannons present. One particular game I was dropped in two places concurrently. The drop in my main had two medivacs speedboost over three cannons and drop on my nexus past their main.
Has anyone experienced similar problems and have any suggestions? I'm currently platinum in beta btw.
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On January 02 2013 11:59 Ldawg wrote: I'm puzzled on how to deal with drops in the mid-late game PvT. I find that with the speed boost, not only do you have a very small window to see the drops coming but the speed boost also guarantees the medivacs take much less damage from any cannons present. One particular game I was dropped in two places concurrently. The drop in my main had two medivacs speedboost over three cannons and drop on my nexus past their main.
Has anyone experienced similar problems and have any suggestions? I'm currently platinum in beta btw.
Templars, blink, map awareness. Same as always. There's no magic bullet to dealing the new drops, you just have to actually be good now compared to before, when you could snooze through drop defence with a few lucky warp-ins.
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Im at a complete Loss in PvP in HoTs now with this new Void Ray fest Metagame. When i expand i get oracle rushed and my mineral line disappears but when i one base they would expand and have Zealot Voids which i cant break. Anybody have any opens that are safe with the new Metagame would really appreciate it.
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Italy12246 Posts
MMR is really goddamn random in the beta so i'm not sure about the actual level of many of my opponents, but in PvP i'm going 3stalker rush into expand and it seems to work quite well; the one time i faced a stargate opening i was able to get 2 stargates of my own, pump phoenixes and outnumber him. I believe Phoenixes still trade quite decently against Void Rays so that might be something worth exploring.
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I'm a high masters in WoL and am losing to diamonds in HotS. Can someone give me an outline of each matchup?
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On January 06 2013 07:08 Kluey wrote: I'm a high masters in WoL and am losing to diamonds in HotS. Can someone give me an outline of each matchup?
in PvP I like 3 stalker MsC rush pressure into expo. Most players are used to getting sentries out to defend, but the High ground vision granted from the core you can actually push up there ramp if they decide to defend with 2 sentries, zlot, and MsC. From here im not exactly sure whats best.
PvZ - I've seen a lot of Pro's going for Nexus first into double Stargate play. Get 2 oracles out first then a couple voids and attack. Then just take a third and try to go into HT, Void, Zlot, Tempest. While I like this build I do not think it is that safe if you do no damage your are very weak against a Hydra push, since you HTs won't be out yet. Recently I have been going for Nexus first into 5:30 3/4th gas, getting one immortal then going straight into colossus. I get a handful on sentries to scout with Hallu. If there is no spire I just take a third off 1 colossus then continue to get 4 of them. You can then push out with a standard 3base timing, but you are going to need a TA for HTs, because you most likely will need feedback to counter the Vipers. From there I Just go into 4+ base going for a compostion of Colossus, HTs, Tempest, Archons, Voids.
The reason behind the quick colossus is to counter all the quick swarm hosts and hydra pushes I had been facing.
PvT. I open with 1gate double gas, get out 1zlot, 2 stalkers, and the MsC. The pressure you can do with these units is very strong. The MsC combined with the stalkers can really do a lot of early damage. From there just expo then I go standard 3gate robo play. SG still is pretty weak against Terran.
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Just had a very lategame PvP match. Ended up on 6 bases before the match was over. Now heres my question:
Between the abilities of the High Templars, Oracle, Mothership core, Sentries, Blinkstalkers and Phoenixes, how in the world are you suppose to keep track of them all without having top 3 control? And thats forgetting the general army splitting and collosus micro you have to do as well. I feel like I went from having too few spellcasters (generally only Sentries, Blink and HT) in wol to a massive overamount of spellcasters in hots.
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P v P, is there any kinda consensus on an ideal void ray count? The more, the better? When I go against void rays, I make archons and win. But it usually seems like I was ahead eco wise, so it's not exactly telling. Say I make a void ray to help aid in defense of an early attack or w/e, when would you stop making void rays? And, do you only transition to tempests when you think colossi might be in play for your opponent? What is your ideal composition to counter mass void rays? Simply try to have more than them?
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On January 06 2013 09:17 playa wrote: P v P, is there any kinda consensus on an ideal void ray count? The more, the better? When I go against void rays, I make archons and win. But it usually seems like I was ahead eco wise, so it's not exactly telling. Say I make a void ray to help aid in defense of an early attack or w/e, when would you stop making void rays? And, do you only transition to tempests when you think colossi might be in play for your opponent? What is your ideal composition to counter mass void rays? Simply try to have more than them?
well yes you make the archons so the other make mass colossi where you make voidrays and vs that again archon
its the mixture, i like at least as much voidrays as the other player have colossi, + some own colossi and archons mix 4tw
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So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer
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On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote: So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer
I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS.
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I just lose PvP every time. I have no idea what strategy to use. I'm silver. do people have suggestions for midgame comps and/or openings
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On January 07 2013 06:40 DBS wrote: I just lose PvP every time. I have no idea what strategy to use. I'm silver. do people have suggestions for midgame comps and/or openings
One strategy I use is I go 1 gate stargate, expand, add two gates. Make 3 oracles, scout with one of them or with a hallucination. If he's on two bases and there's nothing too scary looking, attack the natural while using the oracles to harass his workers in his main at the same time. At gold level at least there's a good chance you'll either destroy the natural or kill many many probes. Bring your MsC to recall after doing the necessary damage, and then macro, taking a third base when you feel safe doing so. Making void rays after the three oracles is probably a good idea, they're really really strong PvP. Your economic advantage should be big enough to win the final battle.
Once I came close to losing when he attacked me with a strong gateway-only army when I was about to leave. I lost my natural but saved most of my probes, and then kept his army out of my main with force fields. During that time my Oracles killed all but 3 of his probes and I ended up winning a few minutes later.
Of course I'd get crushed at a higher level but if you're silver it should get you to gold at least.
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http://drop.sc/294141
PVP game - Just before the fite I had almost 30 food more than him and still loss PLease help
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Okay, in PvP lately I've been playing against 1gate into 1 Oracle into phoenix. I do not see any way to defeat this build without doing the same thing. Any type of robo play leaves you horribly off versus the Oracle, and if you open twilight you are in a hard spot with the nerf to blink, and the MSC when is uses the nexus cannon. I've even tried opneing Oracle into voids but that loses when you lose your Oracle to phx but cant kill theirs.
It seems even worse then when 4gate was all that was used because now, all that happens is SG openings which seem so strong. The voids rays are so good against any anti air now its very hard to punish with the standard 6gate timing against SG opening like you would in wol.
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On January 13 2013 06:17 jcroisdale wrote: Okay, in PvP lately I've been playing against 1gate into 1 Oracle into phoenix. I do not see any way to defeat this build without doing the same thing. Any type of robo play leaves you horribly off versus the Oracle, and if you open twilight you are in a hard spot with the nerf to blink, and the MSC when is uses the nexus cannon. I've even tried opneing Oracle into voids but that loses when you lose your Oracle to phx but cant kill theirs.
It seems even worse then when 4gate was all that was used because now, all that happens is SG openings which seem so strong. The voids rays are so good against any anti air now its very hard to punish with the standard 6gate timing against SG opening like you would in wol.
Aren't oracles kinda terrible vs stalkers? I've tried different air openings in PvP, and it seems that only the old phoenix opening works still.
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On January 12 2013 16:02 vahgar.r24 wrote:http://drop.sc/294141 PVP game - Just before the fite I had almost 30 food more than him and still loss PLease help
edit: This was also a PvZ not a PvP but gave my opinion anyway.
Well firstly you were behind him about 50 food. He was maxed you were at 155/200. But nontheless, he caught you off guard and got a better concave on your army. FF went down a bit late, but the main reason for losing is because of the lack of splash damage you had with your army. Also being 50 food behind hurts as well. Pick your battles better though.. don't over commit to a position were your FF can't help you escape if needed. Also try to get a spotter or an observer so you know where his army is so you're not caught off guard like that.
tl;dr: 1. Spotter unit / Observer 2. Positioning 3. FF 4. Splash Damage
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On January 13 2013 06:45 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 06:17 jcroisdale wrote: Okay, in PvP lately I've been playing against 1gate into 1 Oracle into phoenix. I do not see any way to defeat this build without doing the same thing. Any type of robo play leaves you horribly off versus the Oracle, and if you open twilight you are in a hard spot with the nerf to blink, and the MSC when is uses the nexus cannon. I've even tried opneing Oracle into voids but that loses when you lose your Oracle to phx but cant kill theirs.
It seems even worse then when 4gate was all that was used because now, all that happens is SG openings which seem so strong. The voids rays are so good against any anti air now its very hard to punish with the standard 6gate timing against SG opening like you would in wol.
Aren't oracles kinda terrible vs stalkers? I've tried different air openings in PvP, and it seems that only the old phoenix opening works still.
You only get one oracle and basically it does the equivalent of four phoenix. In that it forces you to keep stalkers in your mineral lines, but instead of the four phx you can do it for the cost of one oracle. From there you can either mass stalker which loses fairly hard against someone who goes into robo which they should since they should have map control/and equal scouting.
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In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed.
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On January 13 2013 09:37 Mirosuu wrote: In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed.
We're all trying to find this out. What I've found so far is that on some maps, you simply can't. If there is a lot of air around you base where Tempest can hang and shoot without stalkers being able to reach, then there is nothing you can do.
But on other maps, a heavy stalker, archon and collosus mix works pretty well. Your archons can tank a lot of tempest damage, while you're collosus will deal with any kind of ground army your opponent might have on top of his air units quite quickly (If he has none, then don't bring any). I haven't tested it very scientifically yet, but I do believe stalkers win vs tempest in cost for cost battle up to a certain point. So if you can get it down to that, you should be golden. If he gets a 200/200 army with pure tempest and carriers, I don't think you can straight up deal with it. Try expanding a ton to get ahead economically, so you can bring the fight to him, and remax on stalkers and archons right away again. (Its not long ago where I was in a 6base PvP match where this exact scenario came up. I kept him on 3 (eventually 4 bases) by sending zealots to harass constantly (the problem with air is that its not very effective at dealing with harass over a large number of bases), while taking half the map as quickly as possible. Even so I have to throw 3x 200/200 army at him in rather quick succession before he finally bowed under).
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On January 13 2013 10:32 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:37 Mirosuu wrote: In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed. We're all trying to find this out. What I've found so far is that on some maps, you simply can't. If there is a lot of air around you base where Tempest can hang and shoot without stalkers being able to reach, then there is nothing you can do. But on other maps, a heavy stalker, archon and collosus mix works pretty well. Your archons can tank a lot of tempest damage, while you're collosus will deal with any kind of ground army your opponent might have on top of his air units quite quickly (If he has none, then don't bring any). I haven't tested it very scientifically yet, but I do believe stalkers win vs tempest in cost for cost battle up to a certain point. So if you can get it down to that, you should be golden. If he gets a 200/200 army with pure tempest and carriers, I don't think you can straight up deal with it. Try expanding a ton to get ahead economically, so you can bring the fight to him, and remax on stalkers and archons right away again. (Its not long ago where I was in a 6base PvP match where this exact scenario came up. I kept him on 3 (eventually 4 bases) by sending zealots to harass constantly (the problem with air is that its not very effective at dealing with harass over a large number of bases), while taking half the map as quickly as possible. Even so I have to throw 3x 200/200 army at him in rather quick succession before he finally bowed under).
Mix in some storm and morph them into Archons. You could through in some warp prism harass since his air army tends to not be able to be in two places at once.
What I've done so far is zealot/archon/stalker some storm and a handful of my own tempest and it's generally a micro battle with the tempests. Make sure you battle at watch towers or have an observer over (or near) his army (if possible) and one with your own. Having the watchtower makes your tempests 10x more effective. Use the boosted sight range to abuse the tempest range.
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On January 13 2013 07:26 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:edit: This was also a PvZ not a PvP but gave my opinion anyway. Well firstly you were behind him about 50 food. He was maxed you were at 155/200. But nontheless, he caught you off guard and got a better concave on your army. FF went down a bit late, but the main reason for losing is because of the lack of splash damage you had with your army. Also being 50 food behind hurts as well. Pick your battles better though.. don't over commit to a position were your FF can't help you escape if needed. Also try to get a spotter or an observer so you know where his army is so you're not caught off guard like that. tl;dr: 1. Spotter unit / Observer 2. Positioning 3. FF 4. Splash Damage
Thanks dude - yes having an observer would have helped a bit. Also will lower my graphics settings to ensure that I lag out on FF lol
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I just started playing the beta...when do people usually get their mothership core?
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On January 13 2013 10:32 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 09:37 Mirosuu wrote: In PvP, how would you deal with an almost pure-air army without having to go air yourself?
I just played a game where I did get considerably behind due to a pathing mistake that led half of my army to its death, but even so, he let me get to 200 supply before I just got rolled by carrier, void ray, tempest with some stalkers.
I have lost to this before, and decided to try high templars for storm (for the mass void ray part as they melt them pretty well) with some immortals for ground army, and really stalker heavy. It didn't matter and was over faster than I've ever seen a battle before. I overproduced on gateways for the remax, but it just didn't matter and promptly died.
Is my composition vs mass air wrong? Or did I just become so far behind that it didn't matter?
I can post replay if needed. We're all trying to find this out. What I've found so far is that on some maps, you simply can't. If there is a lot of air around you base where Tempest can hang and shoot without stalkers being able to reach, then there is nothing you can do. But on other maps, a heavy stalker, archon and collosus mix works pretty well. Your archons can tank a lot of tempest damage, while you're collosus will deal with any kind of ground army your opponent might have on top of his air units quite quickly (If he has none, then don't bring any). I haven't tested it very scientifically yet, but I do believe stalkers win vs tempest in cost for cost battle up to a certain point. So if you can get it down to that, you should be golden. If he gets a 200/200 army with pure tempest and carriers, I don't think you can straight up deal with it. Try expanding a ton to get ahead economically, so you can bring the fight to him, and remax on stalkers and archons right away again. (Its not long ago where I was in a 6base PvP match where this exact scenario came up. I kept him on 3 (eventually 4 bases) by sending zealots to harass constantly (the problem with air is that its not very effective at dealing with harass over a large number of bases), while taking half the map as quickly as possible. Even so I have to throw 3x 200/200 army at him in rather quick succession before he finally bowed under).
Ahh, I see.
I did attempt to play it like I would vs mech, with mass expansions and overproducing gateways for enough macro for the follow-up attack. I think most of why I lost is the massive chunk of my army I lost due to pathing on star station. I didn't expect my units to go a certain way, went back to macro and add on more production and take a 4th, and by the time I reacted, I'd lost half of my army. I think this is why I couldn't keep up after that.
He opened phoenix to prevent me going for collosus in any capacity. I am of the opinion that I shouldn't build collosus if he already has phoenix out due to being quite a problem to keep them alive in small numbers if the player using the phoenix is good, especially if you split your stalker force up to keep your mineral lines alive.
When I played the game, I felt that he was vulnerable at certain times when he was on 2 base, so I might try and go over any replays of it and see whether I can produce a timing to exploit that kind of weakness when opening air -> air composition.
Has anyone attempted a 2 base blink stalker all-in once you detect he's going void rays off of a stargate opening? (to me, seeing void rays on 2 base and a light gateway force means mass air) I feel it would be quite strong against it, but I've not tried it yet. Not played enough protoss to get practice trying out timings against it.
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lately i lost to a guy doing MASS mines as T.... what the hell do i do? I play Protoss and i had quite a deathball and some voids but they seem to destroy everything...
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marines counter every non-aoe unit in the game
you need storms or colossi (or both)
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On January 13 2013 23:36 WeedRa wrote: lately i lost to a guy doing MASS mines as T.... what the hell do i do? I play Protoss and i had quite a deathball and some voids but they seem to destroy everything... Mass mines you just have to get your observer(Or two or four) out and move your army slower. Scout ahead pick off the mines one by one. Patience is a huge key to dealing with mines. If you have your deathball up your collosi should be able to snipe mines from a very safe distance. Even with tons of them, just don't get frustrated and rush your whole army in.
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On January 13 2013 15:40 LuckyMacro wrote: I just started playing the beta...when do people usually get their mothership core?
Day9 did a piece on this. If I recall, I believe the correct time was as you put down your expansion nexus (so it will have 100 energy by the time it's complete). You could get it earlier if you wanted to be aggressive with it like the blink build (PvP)
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how do you deal with hellbats+tanks+vikings composition in the midgame? hellbats are like super strong now :|
i usually open with oracles + expand, then tech into storms + chargelots + voids. when i see mech i add immortals to the mix. but i lost every single time vs hellbats (even if i do decent damage in early)
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On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote: So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different.
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On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote: So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different. Thanks for posting that. I'm definitely gonna give it a go. I've been getting completely rolled by Zerg trying Stargate but I wasn't doing it properly.
And yeah, I was quite good at holding mutas in WoL but not knowing how fast they are, I tried doing the same style of defense (blink into storm) and got completely crushed. Stalkers simply cannot keep up anymore and can't do the kind of damage you need when mutas have that good of regen. Even storm feels useless against a good zerg because they only stay in the storm for a fraction of a second. My first game against an actual good zerg going mutas felt embarrassingly bad, but that was because up to that point all the zergs I had played were terrible. Once you start hitting Master and top Diamond zergs it gets scary because they can actually macro while controlling mutas and you can be put far behind really fast. I'm definitely going to be trying double stargate and possibly getting the range upgrade now. I can't even imagine how good they will be in the hands of a pro.
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How are people playing PvT nowadays? I used to love doing early gateway pressure while teching up - but I have no idea how to play it nowadays (thanks to WM & instant siege mode tanks) without resorting to just being defensive and play a snoozefest macro style, which is frankly pretty boring =/
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On January 16 2013 18:33 Zealot Lord wrote: How are people playing PvT nowadays? I used to love doing early gateway pressure while teching up - but I have no idea how to play it nowadays (thanks to WM & instant siege mode tanks) without resorting to just being defensive and play a snoozefest macro style, which is frankly pretty boring =/
Try White-Ra style (Day9 have a daily on it), where you open stargate while expanding and teching over to collosus. If he's going mech, you can transition over to skytoss after.
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On January 16 2013 18:40 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 18:33 Zealot Lord wrote: How are people playing PvT nowadays? I used to love doing early gateway pressure while teching up - but I have no idea how to play it nowadays (thanks to WM & instant siege mode tanks) without resorting to just being defensive and play a snoozefest macro style, which is frankly pretty boring =/ Try White-Ra style (Day9 have a daily on it), where you open stargate while expanding and teching over to collosus. If he's going mech, you can transition over to skytoss after.
Hmm, thanks for the suggestion - will look into it!
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On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote: So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different.
I dunno about all that. All tech routes + a mothership core that usually has 200 energy makes a lot of things possible. If you don't go phoenix, you're definitely aiming to win a base trade game, though. If you miss your timing, it's over. I'm still going all tech routes, but I have started pumping out phoenixes from 1 stargate, no matter what. I hate making 2 early robos or stargates. I'd rather just get a head start on production and remain flexible. You might be thinking, aha, he can't deal with mutas without stargates, but honestly, the main reason for it is kinda absurd to think about.. It's swarm hosts. I can't stand playing against swarm host play, and, for some reason, phoenixes seem to be the best counter. Even when they have the hydra/host combination, I like to just go in with the phoenixes and lift all of the hosts before they're about to spawn more locusts.
But yeah, if you have around 6 phoenixes before they even have any mutas, then that's better/less chancy than a base trade scenario. Even against mutas, I never really got blink stalkers that fast. I just tried to have an archon or two and stalkers at each location. The extra regen on mutas makes turtle play kinda depressing. I feel sorry for people using storm.
I'm curious as to how people are dealing with swarm hosts and the different combinations involving them. Also, am I the only one that's terrified of ultras? Doesn't matter if I have the map and am maxed, it seems like you have to play so cautiously. Like make sure you can reinforce with like 4 stargates pumping void rays, have multiple robos making immortals, and have all of your bases mass cannoned up, etc, etc. Reminds me way too much of playing t vs z in BW. That's was one of the reasons I was happy to choose Toss Ultra, baneling is something else.
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On January 16 2013 20:09 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote: So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different. I dunno about all that. All tech routes + a mothership core that usually has 200 energy makes a lot of things possible. If you don't go phoenix, you're definitely aiming to win a base trade game, though. If you miss your timing, it's over. I'm still going all tech routes, but I have started pumping out phoenixes from 1 stargate, no matter what. I hate making 2 early robos or stargates. I'd rather just get a head start on production and remain flexible. You might be thinking, aha, he can't deal with mutas without stargates, but honestly, the main reason for it is kinda absurd to think about.. It's swarm hosts. I can't stand playing against swarm host play, and, for some reason, phoenixes seem to be the best counter. Even when they have the hydra/host combination, I like to just go in with the phoenixes and lift all of the hosts before they're about to spawn more locusts. But yeah, if you have around 6 phoenixes before they even have any mutas, then that's better/less chancy than a base trade scenario. Even against mutas, I never really got blink stalkers that fast. I just tried to have an archon or two and stalkers at each location. The extra regen on mutas makes turtle play kinda depressing. I feel sorry for people using storm. I'm curious as to how people are dealing with swarm hosts and the different combinations involving them. Also, am I the only one that's terrified of ultras? Doesn't matter if I have the map and am maxed, it seems like you have to play so cautiously. Like make sure you can reinforce with like 4 stargates pumping void rays, have multiple robos making immortals, and have all of your bases mass cannoned up, etc, etc. Reminds me way too much of playing t vs z in BW. That's was one of the reasons I was happy to choose Toss Ultra, baneling is something else.
Ultras are not as good as they are vs terran. As P, a typical skytoss wrecks any ultra dependent build. If you see an early cavern, commit more to VRs. You'd obviously be concerned about hydras at this stage, so mix Hts into your composition. Save your energy unless you know they're going to commit to a fight, since hydras can EASILY dodge storms and they're the only real threat to a skytoss composition. You could also use timewarp and slow followed by several carpet storms. If you're still using a robo based build, a ratio of 5stalkers to 1 immortal is very powerful especially if you save time warp as they attack with ultras. Frankly, sky protoss is a very very powerful build atm, and while quite difficult to achieve, you should opt for them vs Z for the highest change of winning a large engagement. If you're stubborn and love micro, twilight council opening with upgraded gateway with storms and immortals work very well vs hydra/roach compositions.
For swarm hosts, the Z in mid game can only get so many of them and because of their general immobility and since it's a large investment, it's quite safe to get blink stalker/collossi that deal with SH/roach reasonably well and corruptors won't really be an issue around 13-14 min. Since the investment in SH is already too great, it's difficult for Z to quickly build counters to a collossi which creates a good timing for you to snipe a base or deny one. Expo as you see fit as well.
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On January 16 2013 21:54 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 20:09 playa wrote:On January 16 2013 06:40 JackReacher wrote:On January 06 2013 10:17 playa wrote:On January 06 2013 10:06 Egomancer wrote: So what is strategy in PvZ?
Currently I am loosing like 90% of the games vs zerg because it is impossible to scout what zerg is doing (same old problem from WoL). Now half of the time zergs go roach/hydra and half of the time zergling/muta. And when you scout at min 9 it is already too late if you pick the wrong strat. Going 2 stargates vs roach/hidra means insta death, so do not listen to the people that are reccomending you this on this thread. 2 stragates works against ling/muta but once more it is a thing of scouting. The opposite is true - going robo against muta/ling = insta death too, so once more it all goes down to scouting. Does any of you have an opening that is good against both zerg openings?
Egomancer I just get a stargate and a robo at a similar time. I don't find a robo to be instant death against mutas. I'd actually prefer to have one so I can build up my immortal count and what not. I'd rather them feel like they can't switch out of mutas. I don't ever make phoenixes against mutas. Too apm intensive. Too worthless versus any possible transition. I'm not saying it's bad in pro's hands, but I don't feel it's needed. With the mothership core, 2 archons, 2 void rays, and some stalkers, it's hard for things to go terribly wrong. In all mu's really, I just love having all tech routes The mothership core makes that a lot more feasible in HotS. Open 1 Stargate and use your first Phoenix to scout - if you suspect muta, throw down a second stargate and fleet beacon for range if he is investing heavily into muta. If he isn't going muta, chrono out ~3 oracles and try to get some harassment in quickly to buy time while you throw down a Robo and start colossus production. You should be able to do enough damage with oracles that you can have enough Colossus and Stalkers in time to deal with Roach Hydra. @ playa: this is completely wrong. You can't possibly deal with pure mass muta in HotS with the new speed and regen buff by going all tech routes - you almost NEED double stargate phoenix to survive, and trying to defend with Blink Stalkers is suicide if you are going Robo. This isn't WoL anymore -- things are different. I dunno about all that. All tech routes + a mothership core that usually has 200 energy makes a lot of things possible. If you don't go phoenix, you're definitely aiming to win a base trade game, though. If you miss your timing, it's over. I'm still going all tech routes, but I have started pumping out phoenixes from 1 stargate, no matter what. I hate making 2 early robos or stargates. I'd rather just get a head start on production and remain flexible. You might be thinking, aha, he can't deal with mutas without stargates, but honestly, the main reason for it is kinda absurd to think about.. It's swarm hosts. I can't stand playing against swarm host play, and, for some reason, phoenixes seem to be the best counter. Even when they have the hydra/host combination, I like to just go in with the phoenixes and lift all of the hosts before they're about to spawn more locusts. But yeah, if you have around 6 phoenixes before they even have any mutas, then that's better/less chancy than a base trade scenario. Even against mutas, I never really got blink stalkers that fast. I just tried to have an archon or two and stalkers at each location. The extra regen on mutas makes turtle play kinda depressing. I feel sorry for people using storm. I'm curious as to how people are dealing with swarm hosts and the different combinations involving them. Also, am I the only one that's terrified of ultras? Doesn't matter if I have the map and am maxed, it seems like you have to play so cautiously. Like make sure you can reinforce with like 4 stargates pumping void rays, have multiple robos making immortals, and have all of your bases mass cannoned up, etc, etc. Reminds me way too much of playing t vs z in BW. That's was one of the reasons I was happy to choose Toss Ultra, baneling is something else. Ultras are not as good as they are vs terran. As P, a typical skytoss wrecks any ultra dependent build. If you see an early cavern, commit more to VRs. You'd obviously be concerned about hydras at this stage, so mix Hts into your composition. Save your energy unless you know they're going to commit to a fight, since hydras can EASILY dodge storms and they're the only real threat to a skytoss composition. You could also use timewarp and slow followed by several carpet storms. If you're still using a robo based build, a ratio of 5stalkers to 1 immortal is very powerful especially if you save time warp as they attack with ultras. Frankly, sky protoss is a very very powerful build atm, and while quite difficult to achieve, you should opt for them vs Z for the highest change of winning a large engagement. If you're stubborn and love micro, twilight council opening with upgraded gateway with storms and immortals work very well vs hydra/roach compositions. For swarm hosts, the Z in mid game can only get so many of them and because of their general immobility and since it's a large investment, it's quite safe to get blink stalker/collossi that deal with SH/roach reasonably well and corruptors won't really be an issue around 13-14 min. Since the investment in SH is already too great, it's difficult for Z to quickly build counters to a collossi which creates a good timing for you to snipe a base or deny one. Expo as you see fit as well.
"Skytoss" is lame and is probably going to get nerfed, so I obviously don't care to start out "skytoss," even if I have a lot of phoenixes. And ofc, I get that transitioning to an all air army against ultras is kinda ideal. I haven't been losing to ultras, it's just that I've been playing such a turtle/passive style, despite having 4x the army and expo's, as ultras wreck everything on the ground. If you open skytoss and your opponent is depending on ultras, maybe he's blind.
As for swarm hosts, I'd like to see some replays or something. I always make colossi and stalkers (maybe get blink too late), but it never seems cost efficient for me. The "counter" to colossi kinda seems to be just make more swarm hosts than they can make colossi. When it comes to corrupters, I'm usually more afraid of all of my observers getting sniped than colossi.
I've heard incontrol refer to swarm hosts as early-mid game broodlords. I'm sure that's largely in part to the spawning of free units, but it does feel like an apt comment. If they get a decent number of swarm hosts, it seems to be over, at least in my games. And, I just can't stop that from happening without phoenixes. Hats off to you.
And it's not just about the number of swarm hosts, but the progress of the swarm hosts. Much like in BW t vs z versus defilers, delaying their progress towards your bases seems paramount. With any kind of 3 base play, I don't know how you can feel comfortable venturing out that far without phoenixes.
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Would it be viable to get like 4-6 oracles and try to snipe hatcheries mid-lategame?
Or just focus on drones and queens and move to next expo instead?
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Are there any guides on going skytoss? ......I cant win a game vs zerg atm.
IM trying everything...and even when i get ahead ill lose to hydra roach or mass muta.
Anyone else having a really hard time vs zerg atm?
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On January 19 2013 08:12 Whindog wrote: Are there any guides on going skytoss? ......I cant win a game vs zerg atm.
IM trying everything...and even when i get ahead ill lose to hydra roach or mass muta.
Anyone else having a really hard time vs zerg atm?
Yeah Mutas are a bitch, I go for 2Base all-ins again, whenever I scout 2Base Zerg just get stargate and scout with halluc.
Hydra Roach still loses to Colossi, if they get Corruptors add Void Rays.
Edit: If you want to make Skytoss work you should try to get your third up really early, like 1 Gate Stargate 3rd while blocking some entrance with gateways early. With the MsC and VoidRays/Oracles you can hold off aggression pretty ez.
And Cannons are your friends with Skytoss, on most maps you want at least 4 or 5 in a line at the spot where Zerg will attack. Cannons Zealot/Sentry and Air units is actually quite strong.
I think Skytoss CAN work but you have to be very careful and get up enough Gateways and Cannons as well as scout good (like look around his base at 10:30ish for his Lair tech and check again at 11ish if he canceled or not) Stuff like that is pretty vital.
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Is there a general strategy to dealing with quick Roach/Hydra pushes with speed upgraded Hydras? I feel like other than going straight into colossus, there isn't really a safe way to right now, and if I go colossus I get completely leveled by roach/hydra/viper. Hydras are so good against gateway units.
PvZ was my best matchup in Wings of Liberty but in HOTS I feel completely lost and useless at it. I win almost every PvT, and most PvPs, but I have something like 4 in 20 W/L for PvZ. I am winning against high diamond and low master Terran and Protoss players then losing to gold and platinum zergs. It's not going well.
Seriously, if I don't figure something out to last through to the late game I am just gonna start 7gating with a mothership core which would probably win me way more games because most zergs are playing so greedy in HOTS.
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Hey, Protoss guys. Early game, is there really any downside to sending your MSC over to the Zerg base to time warp his mineral line and gas? It happens to me sometimes and it looks like one of those "why the hell not?" things.
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It really depends on the sense of style you want to give out to your opponent. If you plan on being aggressive and reveal this early on, you might prompt the zerg to prepare earlier for aggression than what you'd like.
I did send my MsC out quite a lot previously, but e.g. if I do a tech build *cough*Oracle*cough* with a later Nexus, I might want to keep my MsC home to defend against any aggression or attempts to cancel my expand, and then maybe send out my MsC in conjunction with Oracles to increase the firepower against queens or as a bait\additional harass.
Intentions aside, how much does a timewarp damage your economy?
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IMO Timewarp doesn't damage enough to warrant exposing your expo - BUT there is a nice "timing" with a zealot, stalker and MsC if you open gate-expand. In this case you can park the MsC above the stalker and let it shoot away while harassing or you can drive it into the Zerg main while poking natural with zealot-stalker. Use Timewarp in all scenarios here...
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Just curious, whats the average game time for you guys in PvT? My last 5 PvT's all took 25+ minutes.. Its so boring (at least for me) when Terrans just turtle up with mines/tanks/thors/vikings which forces you to go Skytoss, build up a deathball of tempest/carriers..
I find it pretty lame that no sort of gateway pressures work anymore because MSC can't detect and siege mode doesn't need research =/ I mean, I'm not trying to QQ, but right now I feel you are almost always forced into Skytoss late game in all matchups (well, maybe not PvP, not sure).
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^^ Zealot Lord, I think a lot of it is the lousy maps in HoTs right now. On the older, smaller maps like Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom, you can put pressure on in mid-game with Immortals and Void Rays plus Gateway units to make it difficult for them to take a fourth or Blink Stalkers to harass the third. But maps like Akilon Wastes, Newkirk, and Korhal are just so big and the first 3 bases so easy to defend that there's nothing to do but death ball to mass tempests and high templars, especially since they'll probably be getting turrets plus a planetary fortress at every expansion. If anybody has alternative suggestions, I'm all ears.
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Hi guys ! I play HotS on mid masters level and I can't make sense of PvP since they removed detection from the MScore.
Stargate openings are now very vulnerable to DTs. DT rushes come earlier than in WoL, to a point where it's difficult to have also a robo up when DTs arrive. Chronoboosting an Oracle is not a solution because the build time is too slow, and keeping one Oracle in your base just for detection is too big an investment in the early game.
Robo openings are now even weaker against stargate with all the VR metagame going on. Phoenix and Oracles will also deal a ton of damage to a robo opening, so it does not feel viable anymore at all.
I tried 2 gate FE (2 zealot 5 stalker FE, then MScore and robo), but it can die to blink and is not completely safe vs DTs (especially if you make MScore and an immortal first from your robo to help defend blink...)
The thing is, each opening is very vulnerable to another opening (worse than in WoL), and I have a hard time scouting what he does until it's too late. I see standard 2 gases early on, then his stalker chases my probe away, and I have no way to know if he makes rock, paper or scissors in sufficient time to respond.
What do you think guys ? Is there any eco oriented opening that could be safe against everything ?
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I think I disagree with your notion of Oracle being too expensive of an detection against dt. You said yourself that Stargate tech does really well against everything except DT's, and that means that the more expensive detection is the price you pay. In WoL Stargate didn't even have the option of fending off DT's, so people had to go double tech, many times before expand. Now you can actually expand and hold out, stalker voidray zealot does really well against counter-attacks in the case of Robo, and Oracle gives you the flexibility to harass him if he moves out. Imo, between oracles and void rays, Stargate is almost perfectly safe. Oracles does not take too long to build, I'm pretty sure they take roughly the same speed to build as observers before observer build speed was buffed, and DT's weren't really broken back then either.
EDIT: DTs are usually most efficient when they are in a timing, which means that Oracles should most likely not be able to harass his mineral line, as he's probably putting all his stalkers there, while sending out the DT's.
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Oracle build time is 50 seconds, which means that you cant chronoboost it out as soon as you spot DTs, it's already too late. Before patch, observer build time was 40 seconds which was also pretty long, but dark shrine was more expensive too.
Now, what you say is interesting, i thought that Oracle just for detection was too expensive, but it's still less expensive than a robo + obs just for detection. Building it consumes stargate production time, which is not good news but i might give it a try !
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How exactly does Recall work? I select my Core, R, select unit (only one?!), select nexus ?
I would prefer to have a better visualisation of the radius my units have to be in for the recall.
I tried to click the nexus on minimap but either i misclick or it takes forever
Is there a way to make it "easier" ?
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On January 23 2013 04:17 WeedRa wrote:How exactly does Recall work? I select my Core, R, select unit (only one?!), select nexus ? I would prefer to have a better visualisation of the radius my units have to be in for the recall. I tried to click the nexus on minimap but either i misclick or it takes forever Is there a way to make it "easier" ? No need to select a unit, just hit R when you have the MSC selected and it will teleport the MSC and every unit near to it to the Nexus you target (it's quite easy to hit the Nexus on the mini map). There is no radius displayed by the recall ability, but you get a feel for it very fast. Hint: it's smaller than you typically wish for, so you need to clump your units right before
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am I the only one who's struggling to make oricals work ?
..some games you just kill all the workers, but if someone scouts you.. or just plays cautiously you can shut them down pretty quickly and easily and then after the early game push with them they just seem like these super fragile supply blockers..
I've found that phonex are just better in everyway... yeah they might not be able to insta kill a mineral line but you can't just shut them down with some AA and have them be useless as in battles they can lift tanks/immortals/hydra's and prevent or limit muta's....
am I the only one here ?? without the time warp they just seem to have no place mid-game unless you go robo-less and use them for detection
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On January 22 2013 20:43 Tharkun wrote: Hi guys ! I play HotS on mid masters level and I can't make sense of PvP since they removed detection from the MScore.
Stargate openings are now very vulnerable to DTs. DT rushes come earlier than in WoL, to a point where it's difficult to have also a robo up when DTs arrive. Chronoboosting an Oracle is not a solution because the build time is too slow, and keeping one Oracle in your base just for detection is too big an investment in the early game.
Robo openings are now even weaker against stargate with all the VR metagame going on. Phoenix and Oracles will also deal a ton of damage to a robo opening, so it does not feel viable anymore at all.
I tried 2 gate FE (2 zealot 5 stalker FE, then MScore and robo), but it can die to blink and is not completely safe vs DTs (especially if you make MScore and an immortal first from your robo to help defend blink...)
The thing is, each opening is very vulnerable to another opening (worse than in WoL), and I have a hard time scouting what he does until it's too late. I see standard 2 gases early on, then his stalker chases my probe away, and I have no way to know if he makes rock, paper or scissors in sufficient time to respond.
What do you think guys ? Is there any eco oriented opening that could be safe against everything ?
I think 2 gate FE is the only safe opening now, which is problematic. Stargate puts you behind against DTs and cheap players who go phoenix before oracle. DTs risk a base race against another DT player. I always go observer first before making Immortals, and chrono boost the observer. With the photon overcharge, you'll still have enough time to get the first immortal out. I can only think of one occasion where fast DTs gave me a problem, and that was a micro error on my part. The first 3 stalkers can go to the opponent's natural and back again before an oracle, DT, or 2nd phoenix arrives at your base. The only issues I've found are 4gates, weird 3gate pressures, warp prism 4gates, and hidden Stargates so the oracle gets to your base faster, but those can all be scouted.
My exact build order after core is: 2nd gateway Stalker Warpgate Research 2nd Gas Pylon Stalker Stalker Mothership Core Nexus Robo
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does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition?
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On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote: does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition?
Theorycrafting ahead:
No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO.
A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets.
Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal.
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United States4991 Posts
On January 23 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote: does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? Theorycrafting ahead: No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO. A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets. Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal. I don't really agree with this at all. Oracles are in no way a cost-effective way of fighting bio - Marines will eat them up far too quickly. Oracles were a useful supplement to your army when they had Time Warp, but now that they don't, they're pretty useless against Bio other than potentially harassing their base.
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so would a standard templar transistion be good? what im doing is 1 gate stargate expo into 3 oracles, then i guess i can try teching into strorm
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On January 23 2013 05:26 FlyingBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 20:43 Tharkun wrote: Hi guys ! I play HotS on mid masters level and I can't make sense of PvP since they removed detection from the MScore.
Stargate openings are now very vulnerable to DTs. DT rushes come earlier than in WoL, to a point where it's difficult to have also a robo up when DTs arrive. Chronoboosting an Oracle is not a solution because the build time is too slow, and keeping one Oracle in your base just for detection is too big an investment in the early game.
Robo openings are now even weaker against stargate with all the VR metagame going on. Phoenix and Oracles will also deal a ton of damage to a robo opening, so it does not feel viable anymore at all.
I tried 2 gate FE (2 zealot 5 stalker FE, then MScore and robo), but it can die to blink and is not completely safe vs DTs (especially if you make MScore and an immortal first from your robo to help defend blink...)
The thing is, each opening is very vulnerable to another opening (worse than in WoL), and I have a hard time scouting what he does until it's too late. I see standard 2 gases early on, then his stalker chases my probe away, and I have no way to know if he makes rock, paper or scissors in sufficient time to respond.
What do you think guys ? Is there any eco oriented opening that could be safe against everything ? I think 2 gate FE is the only safe opening now, which is problematic. Stargate puts you behind against DTs and cheap players who go phoenix before oracle. DTs risk a base race against another DT player. I always go observer first before making Immortals, and chrono boost the observer. With the photon overcharge, you'll still have enough time to get the first immortal out. I can only think of one occasion where fast DTs gave me a problem, and that was a micro error on my part. The first 3 stalkers can go to the opponent's natural and back again before an oracle, DT, or 2nd phoenix arrives at your base. The only issues I've found are 4gates, weird 3gate pressures, warp prism 4gates, and hidden Stargates so the oracle gets to your base faster, but those can all be scouted. My exact build order after core is: 2nd gateway Stalker Warpgate Research 2nd Gas Pylon Stalker Stalker Mothership Core Nexus Robo Nice, this is less gas heavy than the SaSe's 2 Gate FE, it might be just what i need. I feel that SaSe's build does not really apply to HotS..
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On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote: does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? What i use at the moment works pretty well, since i have 70% win ratio in PvT (and about 40% in other MUs )
My plan is to open with a very fast stargate, prepare a chargelot/oracle timing push at 10:00 on 2 bases while teching to storm, then transition to colossus in the late game.
In detail, it's 1 gate stargate opening : 2nd gas at 19, stalker as first gateway unit, stargate as soon as stalker is out, drop nexus while stargate builds, then oracle rallied straight to their base to see what we can kill. Continue oracle production, while going to 3 gates total, then twilight. Pause temporarily oracle production to research charge (chronoboost it), then resume. Go up to 6 gates and move out with ~10 zealots and ~5 oracles. While moving out, get 2 gases at your expansion and templar archives for storm. Warp a round of zealots near their base with a proxy pylon and attack. Make sure that zealots are in front, so that his bio will target zealots first and not oracles. Oracles will eat marines, and marauders are pretty useless. I often kill them right there. In case it does not work, you have storm ready and can continue on to the late game.
You can see what it looks like from terran point of view on this archive from painuser stream at 10:29:30 http://fr.twitch.tv/painuser/b/359116229 :p
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On January 23 2013 12:15 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote: does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? Theorycrafting ahead: No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO. A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets. Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal. I don't really agree with this at all. Oracles are in no way a cost-effective way of fighting bio - Marines will eat them up far too quickly. Oracles were a useful supplement to your army when they had Time Warp, but now that they don't, they're pretty useless against Bio other than potentially harassing their base.
Sorry, you made me realize I missed out unit composition. I knew I was missing something. Yes, the ideal comp should be zealot/sentry and 3 oracles pushin out around 10-15 min mark.
Strategy: Engage in open ground split up the army with FF and have oracles come in when marines are targeting firing the sentries. You've pushed the opponent in a catch-22 situation. Choose between killing the sentries and have oracles in the base killing ur doods OR sentries to keep splitting up your army.
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On January 23 2013 12:15 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 12:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On January 23 2013 11:46 freizya wrote: does anyone have a build order for stargate in pvt? is that the standard now with 3 oracles? also how do i transition? Theorycrafting ahead: No build order but concepts, the strength of the oracle is its dps vs. light, therefore a good engagement will force the Terran to transition into either sky terran or mech, both do quite poorly if they are not prepared with an alternate BO. A bio Terran forced to produce Vikings will not be producing medivacs. Or marines for that matter, if he's forced to build turrets. Since you're forcing a transition into mech, a mid-late game anti-mech composition will be the goal. I don't really agree with this at all. Oracles are in no way a cost-effective way of fighting bio - Marines will eat them up far too quickly. Oracles were a useful supplement to your army when they had Time Warp, but now that they don't, they're pretty useless against Bio other than potentially harassing their base.
I don't think you've quite tried the strength of oracles over a ground army yet. Oracles are glass canons, so they will need a ground army with them. But they shred bio like nothing if they can sit and shoot in peace. Try having 5-6 oracles over your ground army and watch those poor marines disappear.
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PvZ continues to be a complete mystery to me. People talk of this mythical late-game air army but I just keep getting completely stomped by roach/hydra timings that seem impossible to stop (like worse than when roach max first gained popularity). I had a zerg 8pool me, do no damage and then still win with that push with 2/2. With how stupidly huge these maps are it seems impossible to punish anything now. Like do I literally just have to turtle hardcore or something? No pressure?
Edit: Holy crap those new voidrays are good. I just went mass voidray/immortal/HT/Tempest against a meching Terran and those things dissolved their tankline in like 3 seconds. The button press charge seems so good.
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so i got placed in bronze in hots a while back since i was playing with all the units during the placements, i was wondering if there are some good one base all ins that can help me get back to high diamond/masters
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laddering agaisnt bronze people is very boring and a waste of time
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If your level is so above bronze league, i bet you will get promoted to gold or plat in a couple dozen games. No need to resort to cheesy builds. If your level is not so great, cheesing is no way to improve.
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PvT: 1base Robo 3gate pushes (assuming bio play, dunno about mech, but should be efficient there as well) PvZ: 2base Gateway all-ins, maybe the newer Warp Prism +1 zealot harass into delayed immortals sentry PvP: Mothership 2gate stalker + oracle harass pressure. (force units to the ramp with your mothership etc, and then kill his mineral line.)
On Oracles
After checking out a few build order by Seed, I saw a 15 double gass stargate opening -> expand -> straight into 1 forge charge storm PvT. I found out that after not being able to harass the terran anymore with oracles, I'd just use them to poke around and use the aoe parasite spell to keep tabs on his army. Could also be used for other tasks such as scouting for drops and expands. But I would definately not recommend using them for combat if you're at a high level, marines will focus them down too quickly, and it's not that it's because the unit is straight up bad at killing MM, it's rather the opportunity cost of building 5-7 oracles that will let terran sit there and focus them. The resources are much better invested in upgrades, archons, templars and chargelots. It's simply too much gas going into Oracles if you're going to use them that way. 2 Oracles is a good number to have for scouting and poking, generally support roles.
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On January 26 2013 03:06 TokO wrote: PvT: 1base Robo 3gate pushes (assuming bio play, dunno about mech, but should be efficient there as well) PvZ: 2base Gateway all-ins, maybe the newer Warp Prism +1 zealot harass into delayed immortals sentry PvP: Mothership 2gate stalker + oracle harass pressure. (force units to the ramp with your mothership etc, and then kill his mineral line.)
On Oracles
After checking out a few build order by Seed, I saw a 15 double gass stargate opening -> expand -> straight into 1 forge charge storm PvT. I found out that after not being able to harass the terran anymore with oracles, I'd just use them to poke around and use the aoe parasite spell to keep tabs on his army. Could also be used for other tasks such as scouting for drops and expands. But I would definately not recommend using them for combat if you're at a high level, marines will focus them down too quickly, and it's not that it's because the unit is straight up bad at killing MM, it's rather the opportunity cost of building 5-7 oracles that will let terran sit there and focus them. The resources are much better invested in upgrades, archons, templars and chargelots. It's simply too much gas going into Oracles if you're going to use them that way. 2 Oracles is a good number to have for scouting and poking, generally support roles.
yeah maybe, but im not sure two oracles would be better than getting say, 3 phonex's ?? becasue they are harder to shut down than oracles and have more use (picking up tanks etc) later on in the game than Oracles...
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Well, at that point you are arguing about details, and I would disagree with your suggestion, although you bring up a valid point.
In my scenario, I was 1) considering a T playing Bio, so tanks are not necessarily a big threat. Tanks are generally not a big threat against chargelot archon regardless.
2) In the case of a weak defense against harass, or an early move-out, the oracles will do a lot more scv damage.
This is the whole point, you open oracles to take use of their early game utility of the phase beam. And then in the midgame, you use envision? to predict his movements, you can just pop in and use the spell on his army, and you'll have vision on it for a minute. This gives you a way more clear way of having guaranteed vision, which will help you greatly in defending your third. Observers can be sniped by scans.
I do not see how phoenixes are more difficult to shut down than oracles, they both have a really high movement speed. Phoenixes for vision would require a lot more apm as you don't have a spell that gives you vision on their army for a minute.
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What's everyone opening with PvZ, gateway expos or FFE? I started doing 1 gate/core expos with MSC sent over to harass zergs into a 4 gate +1 poke with recall if necessary. I was having a lot of success with it initially but I think it was because every zerg is so used to FFE that they dunno what to do. If you start getting flooded with slings one slip in your defense and the game pretty much snowballs from there.
Since then I've been FFE'ing but basically losing every game to a roach/hydra max attack as I'm trying to saturate my third. Even if you get colossus out roach/hydra can trade really well, and building walls actually end up hurting a lot against this. I swear, if I lose another game because all my chargelots die while running around my wall at my third...I've been doing nexus first/ffe into stargate, 4 gates, + 1 attack, a robo into expo so extremely standard stuff. But when I try to take my third I just have such trouble holding for some reason and I just die. Or if I manage to get to lategame the zerg just turtles and gets up to ultras and just crushes my whole army and I die in the transition to air. PvZ feels worse than it did in WoL for me
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On January 23 2013 05:23 baldgye wrote: am I the only one who's struggling to make oricals work ?
..some games you just kill all the workers, but if someone scouts you.. or just plays cautiously you can shut them down pretty quickly and easily and then after the early game push with them they just seem like these super fragile supply blockers..
I've found that phonex are just better in everyway... yeah they might not be able to insta kill a mineral line but you can't just shut them down with some AA and have them be useless as in battles they can lift tanks/immortals/hydra's and prevent or limit muta's....
am I the only one here ?? without the time warp they just seem to have no place mid-game unless you go robo-less and use them for detection
Try proxy stargate in PvP or PvT . I usually do it most of the time when I want to use oracles, most of the times it works (in plat-diamond league) sometimes minimal damage to enemy. Then transition depending on what the opponent is making.
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Is it just me or is hots ladder harder then wol? I only played a few games yet, but im master league in wol, but i even lose games in bronze league now (yes ok, i havnt played any starcraft in a while, but still!). Mainly PvP is a problem, i figured blink stalkers would be much powerful now with mothership core and not having to tech robo. but i somehow cant hit the right timing to be effective. If anyone can give me a quick overview of popular builds in the three matchups that would be great, altough i should be able to get diamond purely by mechanics..i just find myself failing pretty hard in hots .
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On January 28 2013 22:38 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:Is it just me or is hots ladder harder then wol? I only played a few games yet, but im master league in wol, but i even lose games in bronze league now (yes ok, i havnt played any starcraft in a while, but still!). Mainly PvP is a problem, i figured blink stalkers would be much powerful now with mothership core and not having to tech robo. but i somehow cant hit the right timing to be effective. If anyone can give me a quick overview of popular builds in the three matchups that would be great, altough i should be able to get diamond purely by mechanics..i just find myself failing pretty hard in hots .
Got the same problem, platinum in WoL, struggling in silver league in the beta. Maybe the lower league WoL players are not playing the beta. Which resets the league system. Gold/plat are bronze/silver in hots, etc
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On January 28 2013 23:20 Loerts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 22:38 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:Is it just me or is hots ladder harder then wol? I only played a few games yet, but im master league in wol, but i even lose games in bronze league now (yes ok, i havnt played any starcraft in a while, but still!). Mainly PvP is a problem, i figured blink stalkers would be much powerful now with mothership core and not having to tech robo. but i somehow cant hit the right timing to be effective. If anyone can give me a quick overview of popular builds in the three matchups that would be great, altough i should be able to get diamond purely by mechanics..i just find myself failing pretty hard in hots . Got the same problem, platinum in WoL, struggling in silver league in the beta. Maybe the lower league WoL players are not playing the beta. Which resets the league system. Gold/plat are bronze/silver in hots, etc
Yea, its probably something like that! Some of my opponents have pretty solid mechanics and build orders + expansion timings, its pretty ackward to lose in bronze xD. And i dont see many 100+ apm players in bronze in WoL like i do in hots.
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Hello guys,
The discussions here are pretty interesting as I am completely lost in HotS myself (diamond player).
PvT
In WoL I went 1gate FE 6 stalkers opening (nexus before any unit, etc.) so I could be aggressive a little, snipe a few marines and macro hard behind.
In HotS, I cannot get aggressive because of widow mines that rape my poking stalkers. I guess the MsC is here to be greedier as stuff will be figured out but I fear this will become even turtlier.
I don't succeed in oracles opening. It can fail pretty hard and as it works on energy either, you are open to a strong counter attack. And as you all know, a committing mid-game protoss just dies easily to a counter attack (I remember this Failhoon game a few weeks ago in PL...).
=> for now, turtle fest slightly greedier into same army composition as WoL except if it is mech.
PvP
I used to go 2gate FE SaSe style. Still works. But it is more coin flippy as ever. DTs without MsC detection or pure VR openings are hard to deal with I find.
=> not stable at all. End up in air deathball boring and coinflippy as hell. Actually prefered positionnal play with colossi.
PvZ
Dunno why everyone is whining on protoss being too hard to beat. In WoL I went immortal expand with warp prism harass. In HotS, the roach/hydra push is really hard to beat because it trades effciently.
The main problem is that I die HARD to mutas with robo opening. So I thought of stargates opening...
But then, the Z just makes a huge roach/hydra push on the 3d is letal and/or trades very well and puts you at a disadvantage...
=> clueless. Nothing works, but if everything plays like WoL, I win because end game is much easier and skytoss is very powerful. But against a good Z, I feel I have no chance at all even if I do a lot of damage with my harass.
Has anyone felt the same ? Do you have any advice to put me on the right track ? Thanks !
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How do u beat voidray carrier hightemplar (lot of storms) mothership? Mass hydras did nothing, corruptors did nothing.
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@FinBenton: You don't. Sorry =/ Timing attack to crush Protoss before HT and while transitioning to Carriers. Lings to harass economy. The old counter in WoL to mass void rays was 1/3rd of each of hydralisks, corruptors and infestors in a timing. Not sure of how that works against this composition, but might be worth a try.
@Wayem
Facing a lot of the same issues. IMO, Stargate openings make the most sense atm. There is a lot of uncharted territory in regards to timings etc I feel. So, active scouting + aggressive play with stargate, zealot-immortal-voidray -> storm support based defense (against roach-hydra timing) should be able to defend a third together with photon overcharge. Against mass muta you just go phoenix with range +.
Take anything I say with a grain of salt. Haven't been able to watch as many streams or played as much as I'd like =/
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On January 29 2013 01:30 FinBenton wrote: How do u beat voidray carrier hightemplar (lot of storms) mothership? Mass hydras did nothing, corruptors did nothing. Maybe a stupid question, I didn't play a lot of hots but doesn't something to detroy ht's (SH, ultras, lings) followed back with mass hydra, matches that composition? Just asking..
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On January 29 2013 00:38 Wayem wrote: Hello guys,
The discussions here are pretty interesting as I am completely lost in HotS myself (diamond player).
PvT
In WoL I went 1gate FE 6 stalkers opening (nexus before any unit, etc.) so I could be aggressive a little, snipe a few marines and macro hard behind.
In HotS, I cannot get aggressive because of widow mines that rape my poking stalkers. I guess the MsC is here to be greedier as stuff will be figured out but I fear this will become even turtlier.
I don't succeed in oracles opening. It can fail pretty hard and as it works on energy either, you are open to a strong counter attack. And as you all know, a committing mid-game protoss just dies easily to a counter attack (I remember this Failhoon game a few weeks ago in PL...).
=> for now, turtle fest slightly greedier into same army composition as WoL except if it is mech.
Has anyone felt the same ? Do you have any advice to put me on the right track ? Thanks !
I've been doing oracle openings every pvt for about 40 games now (after watching/copying WhiteRa pvt reps) and find it to be extremely effective. Terran has no early game options to defend and you have free reign until you force them to put up turrets. A single oracle can kill so many marines especially when the T sends them in a line to save his workers.
As you harrass follow up with extra gateways and chargelots. Chargelots + oracles are enough to hold off an early push, then you can get storm.
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On January 29 2013 02:59 Pengu1n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 00:38 Wayem wrote: Hello guys,
The discussions here are pretty interesting as I am completely lost in HotS myself (diamond player).
PvT
In WoL I went 1gate FE 6 stalkers opening (nexus before any unit, etc.) so I could be aggressive a little, snipe a few marines and macro hard behind.
In HotS, I cannot get aggressive because of widow mines that rape my poking stalkers. I guess the MsC is here to be greedier as stuff will be figured out but I fear this will become even turtlier.
I don't succeed in oracles opening. It can fail pretty hard and as it works on energy either, you are open to a strong counter attack. And as you all know, a committing mid-game protoss just dies easily to a counter attack (I remember this Failhoon game a few weeks ago in PL...).
=> for now, turtle fest slightly greedier into same army composition as WoL except if it is mech.
Has anyone felt the same ? Do you have any advice to put me on the right track ? Thanks ! I've been doing oracle openings every pvt for about 40 games now (after watching/copying WhiteRa pvt reps) and find it to be extremely effective. Terran has no early game options to defend and you have free reign until you force them to put up turrets. A single oracle can kill so many marines especially when the T sends them in a line to save his workers. As you harrass follow up with extra gateways and chargelots. Chargelots + oracles are enough to hold off an early push, then you can get storm. That's interesting, do you have a bit more specific build to recommend ?
1gate expand into stargate + 2 gates and later twilight + more gates woth 1forge upgrades ?
How do you deal with cloak banshees (=do your really on oracles for detection) ? Do you get MsC with the 1st expand ? How many oracles do you make ? 1 won't do much, more becomes a serious commitment...
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what's the best way to play against swarm hosts - hydras - roaches - corruptors/vipers? I always open stargate in pvz with usually 4 phoenixes, the zerg get hydras, I get colossi + chargelot but then he starts to siege my third/natural and I can't do anything
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Can somebody give me a good pvp build. I am mid low masters in WOL but i just have no idea what the fuck is going on in HOTS at all. I don't really enjoy noobing around and I would learn a lot faster if i actually had some standard openings and understood when to build my mothership core in match ups. Also are tempests the only way to fight swarm hosts?
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On January 29 2013 03:11 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 02:59 Pengu1n wrote:On January 29 2013 00:38 Wayem wrote: Hello guys,
The discussions here are pretty interesting as I am completely lost in HotS myself (diamond player).
PvT
In WoL I went 1gate FE 6 stalkers opening (nexus before any unit, etc.) so I could be aggressive a little, snipe a few marines and macro hard behind.
In HotS, I cannot get aggressive because of widow mines that rape my poking stalkers. I guess the MsC is here to be greedier as stuff will be figured out but I fear this will become even turtlier.
I don't succeed in oracles opening. It can fail pretty hard and as it works on energy either, you are open to a strong counter attack. And as you all know, a committing mid-game protoss just dies easily to a counter attack (I remember this Failhoon game a few weeks ago in PL...).
=> for now, turtle fest slightly greedier into same army composition as WoL except if it is mech.
Has anyone felt the same ? Do you have any advice to put me on the right track ? Thanks ! I've been doing oracle openings every pvt for about 40 games now (after watching/copying WhiteRa pvt reps) and find it to be extremely effective. Terran has no early game options to defend and you have free reign until you force them to put up turrets. A single oracle can kill so many marines especially when the T sends them in a line to save his workers. As you harrass follow up with extra gateways and chargelots. Chargelots + oracles are enough to hold off an early push, then you can get storm. That's interesting, do you have a bit more specific build to recommend ? 1gate expand into stargate + 2 gates and later twilight + more gates woth 1forge upgrades ? How do you deal with cloak banshees (=do your really on oracles for detection) ? Do you get MsC with the 1st expand ? How many oracles do you make ? 1 won't do much, more becomes a serious commitment...
I'm facing much the same problems as you are - PvZ hydra pushes and mass-muta builds, PvP not making _any_ sense at all, but I'm having a little more stability in PvT with oracle openings, also semi-copied from the few Whitera games I saw.
The idea is to not 1gate-FE-stargate, but to 1gate-stargate-FE. I've been chronoing out 2 stalkers and an oracle or two, then macroing as hard as I can behind it. Most terran openings won't have enough marines to split between defending the front from stalker pokes and the back from oracle harass at the same time, esp since 1 oracle can take out up to 4 marines. My experience is against a decently played 1-rax FE, you can usually kill enough scvs to make up for your early investment in the stargate, and with two oracles at the back of their base you also have some limited counter-attack options if they move out prematurely. I'm still not very sure what to follow up with after the initial pressure, I'm currently experimenting with straight-to-colossus, which works well if the oracle harass went more effective than expected because you can do a strong timing with 2-3 colos that is hard for terran to hold if he's behind, but I think I should probably try out the chargelot archon transition that people seem to be recommending too.
Against cloak banshee and similar 1-1-1 openings, 1gate stargate FE works particularly well in my experience. Even in wol fast stargate openers have been good against 1-1-1 openings because you have free vision for your stalkers to shoot up at the terran wall, and oracles are very strong when your opponent only has 1 rax. You'll basically force harder marine production, oftentimes also missile turrets, which will really delay whatever push/pressure they intended to do. As for detection, I make up to 4-5 oracles if I see techlab stargate, including the early harass ones. They're surprisingly good against marines after all. All in all I feel a lot more comfortable against 1-1-1 openings in HOTS than in WoL.
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On January 29 2013 04:02 Brandhor wrote: what's the best way to play against swarm hosts - hydras - roaches - corruptors/vipers? I always open stargate in pvz with usually 4 phoenixes, the zerg get hydras, I get colossi + chargelot but then he starts to siege my third/natural and I can't do anything
This may not be of too much help, but the last few games I played against Zerg with this unit comp, I haven't had too much of a hard time.
What I tend to do is attempt to spread the Zerg out as best I can ( ex. Warp Prisim, Dt's , Oracles(If still alive) ) I stop making Collosi at about 5 or so depending on the ratio Hydras:Roachs, Then my end game army consists of HT's, Stalkers, Collosi and Mother Ship core.
The key is to try to be the aggressor in the final battle while keeping the Mothership core alive. I then use time warp and try to push the Zerg army back while focusing ( as best I can ) the burrowed swarm hosts.
If you stay on par with upgrades you should be ok, as long as your storms land and you are able to focus down the key units you shouldn't have as hard a time.
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On January 29 2013 03:11 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 02:59 Pengu1n wrote:On January 29 2013 00:38 Wayem wrote: Hello guys,
The discussions here are pretty interesting as I am completely lost in HotS myself (diamond player).
PvT
In WoL I went 1gate FE 6 stalkers opening (nexus before any unit, etc.) so I could be aggressive a little, snipe a few marines and macro hard behind.
In HotS, I cannot get aggressive because of widow mines that rape my poking stalkers. I guess the MsC is here to be greedier as stuff will be figured out but I fear this will become even turtlier.
I don't succeed in oracles opening. It can fail pretty hard and as it works on energy either, you are open to a strong counter attack. And as you all know, a committing mid-game protoss just dies easily to a counter attack (I remember this Failhoon game a few weeks ago in PL...).
=> for now, turtle fest slightly greedier into same army composition as WoL except if it is mech.
Has anyone felt the same ? Do you have any advice to put me on the right track ? Thanks ! I've been doing oracle openings every pvt for about 40 games now (after watching/copying WhiteRa pvt reps) and find it to be extremely effective. Terran has no early game options to defend and you have free reign until you force them to put up turrets. A single oracle can kill so many marines especially when the T sends them in a line to save his workers. As you harrass follow up with extra gateways and chargelots. Chargelots + oracles are enough to hold off an early push, then you can get storm. That's interesting, do you have a bit more specific build to recommend ? 1gate expand into stargate + 2 gates and later twilight + more gates woth 1forge upgrades ? How do you deal with cloak banshees (=do your really on oracles for detection) ? Do you get MsC with the 1st expand ? How many oracles do you make ? 1 won't do much, more becomes a serious commitment...
what i do is 1 gate stargate after killing his scout then expand. The first oracle needs to be out asap and get to his mineral line then rally a second one to his expo mineral line. Expo is later than the terran but the oracle makes up for it with scv kills. I continually make oracles and harrass with them sometimes winning the game outright by catching his marines as they run back and forth. Terran will put turrets up then usually go for a marine/medivac attack.
By then I have about 5 gates + charge upgrading and a MSC ready for defense. Nexus cannon+ chargelots + 3 to 5 oracles can hold him off then go for storm and a 3rd. i usually stop making oracles here since they are useless once the bio ball gets too big. then ill usually double forge and start chronoing upgrades.
If you scout tech lab on starport with the first oracle just throw down a robo and make a phoenix.
Im currently high diamond in hots, masters in wol and so far i have a 75% win ratio against T doing this every game. But if you want specific build order watch white ra vs fenix or white ra vs dragon showmatches He did this opening almost every game iirc.
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On January 29 2013 16:29 UrielSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 04:02 Brandhor wrote: what's the best way to play against swarm hosts - hydras - roaches - corruptors/vipers? I always open stargate in pvz with usually 4 phoenixes, the zerg get hydras, I get colossi + chargelot but then he starts to siege my third/natural and I can't do anything This may not be of too much help, but the last few games I played against Zerg with this unit comp, I haven't had too much of a hard time. What I tend to do is attempt to spread the Zerg out as best I can ( ex. Warp Prisim, Dt's , Oracles(If still alive) ) I stop making Collosi at about 5 or so depending on the ratio Hydras:Roachs, Then my end game army consists of HT's, Stalkers, Collosi and Mother Ship core. The key is to try to be the aggressor in the final battle while keeping the Mothership core alive. I then use time warp and try to push the Zerg army back while focusing ( as best I can ) the burrowed swarm hosts. If you stay on par with upgrades you should be ok, as long as your storms land and you are able to focus down the key units you shouldn't have as hard a time. the warp prism seems to be a good idea, I'll try that. About the oracles I used them a month ago and I killed pretty much every drone, but since then every zerg build at least 1 spore crawler which is enough to kill the oracles especially if there is a queen around too, that's why I prefer to go phoenix so I can kill some overlords/drone and be able to defend against mutalisk
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Just played a PVT - I thought we both we on even level and I knew terran was going bio so I went collossus - but the fite was very one sided and lost Any tips here please?
http://drop.sc/300519
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On January 30 2013 04:09 vahgar.r24 wrote:Just played a PVT - I thought we both we on even level and I knew terran was going bio so I went collossus - but the fite was very one sided and lost Any tips here please? http://drop.sc/300519
- the first gas was a little late imho, you could take it at 14, also you forgot to put the third probe in the second gas for the whole game
- the forge was really early, you don't need upgrades at 6 minutes because you have no units to upgrade anyway, it's better if to make a robo so you can scout as soon as possible with an observer
- the mothership core is not really that great for harrassment, it's much better if you keep it for defense, with photon overcharge you can pretty much defend every kind of rush and with time warp deny a retreat
- why make all these gateways outside your natural? if he pushes and destroy the pylons you won't have many gateways left to defend
- you tried to expand in the middle left near the terran but it's not a great position because he can just stim and destroy the nexus in a couple of seconds and then retreat
- as for the actual engagement you only had 3 sentries, you still managed to split his army even if it was a bit late but you didn't target fire the viking, even if you use 1 for everything you can hotkey the stalkers to 2 as well so you can easily tap 2 and target fire the vikings, also if you had more sentries you could have landed another wall of forcefields and kill some vikings without worrying about the marine-marauders
- you could have built another forge to speed up the upgrades
- try to use high templars, storms are really really good especially if the terran gets vikings
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51345 Posts
In 2v2, Protoss air is very very very good. Takes alot to beat it. Currently playing diamond 2v2s and me and my friend really do struggle vs tempest/void and harras from oracle.
Voids with the super charge automatic ability seems to destroy Hydras so fast it is untrue, you could have a heavy hydra/roach army and it is dead within second vs like 10-15 voids 3-4 tempest, it is crazy.
Obviously i can't really comment on 1v1 side, but im sure vs Zerg air toss is the way to go?
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On January 28 2013 22:38 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:Is it just me or is hots ladder harder then wol? I only played a few games yet, but im master league in wol, but i even lose games in bronze league now (yes ok, i havnt played any starcraft in a while, but still!). Mainly PvP is a problem, i figured blink stalkers would be much powerful now with mothership core and not having to tech robo. but i somehow cant hit the right timing to be effective. If anyone can give me a quick overview of popular builds in the three matchups that would be great, altough i should be able to get diamond purely by mechanics..i just find myself failing pretty hard in hots .
It's not necessarily harder, but since there are less people playing, the leagues are all jumbled. Like say if you were master in WoL but got matched against 5 wol GMs in placement, that would put you in bronze but you would still have master level skills. So when you queue, your mmr is no doubt bronze but you might run into real bronze league or real silver league which would make it seems like its harder than it actually is.
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On January 30 2013 05:52 Brandhor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 04:09 vahgar.r24 wrote:Just played a PVT - I thought we both we on even level and I knew terran was going bio so I went collossus - but the fite was very one sided and lost Any tips here please? http://drop.sc/300519 - the first gas was a little late imho, you could take it at 14, also you forgot to put the third probe in the second gas for the whole game
- the forge was really early, you don't need upgrades at 6 minutes because you have no units to upgrade anyway, it's better if to make a robo so you can scout as soon as possible with an observer
- the mothership core is not really that great for harrassment, it's much better if you keep it for defense, with photon overcharge you can pretty much defend every kind of rush and with time warp deny a retreat
- why make all these gateways outside your natural? if he pushes and destroy the pylons you won't have many gateways left to defend
- you tried to expand in the middle left near the terran but it's not a great position because he can just stim and destroy the nexus in a couple of seconds and then retreat
- as for the actual engagement you only had 3 sentries, you still managed to split his army even if it was a bit late but you didn't target fire the viking, even if you use 1 for everything you can hotkey the stalkers to 2 as well so you can easily tap 2 and target fire the vikings, also if you had more sentries you could have landed another wall of forcefields and kill some vikings without worrying about the marine-marauders
- you could have built another forge to speed up the upgrades
- try to use high templars, storms are really really good especially if the terran gets vikings
Thanks so much , appreciate the quality feedback
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I've figured out the roach/hydra stuff in PvZ but mutas still seem impossible, even after opening stargate and going into 2 stargate phoenix with range (because they just mass lings and attack move or deny your third and starve you. I started going into zealot/phoenix but if they scout it they just go mass ling/baneling and I can't even remotely hold it). It is so frustrating because I dominate most Terran and Protoss but lose one-sidely to fairly poor Zergs who can't even inject properly or do anything resembling micro.
Luckily, most zergs I play still do the roach/hydra fast push thingy and I have kinda figured out how to deal with that, though there is still a lot of refinement to do obviously.
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On February 01 2013 15:54 Ben... wrote: I've figured out the roach/hydra stuff in PvZ but mutas still seem impossible, even after opening stargate and going into 2 stargate phoenix with range (because they just mass lings and attack move or deny your third and starve you. I started going into zealot/phoenix but if they scout it they just go mass ling/baneling and I can't even remotely hold it). It is so frustrating because I dominate most Terran and Protoss but lose one-sidely to fairly poor Zergs who can't even inject properly or do anything resembling micro.
Luckily, most zergs I play still do the roach/hydra fast push thingy and I have kinda figured out how to deal with that, though there is still a lot of refinement to do obviously.
play it like wol pvz mass muta. get your third in a fast manner, since he wont have enough to snipe it, unless he dedicates a large amount of resources and time to attempt that which will delay everything else. You need to get blink and storm eventually, the ball of mutas just cant be dealt with using just phoenix. We have more defensive abilities through the mothership core, so make sure its there to turn that nexus into a strong defensive point. And dont be scared to attack, you need to at least be doing counter attacks while his mutas are trying to harass you.
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kinda get how to deal with Roach/Hydra timings or sometimes Hydra/Mass speedlings. The problem for me is when I failed to read that Zerg is going Swarm Hosts. Most of the time,it just snowballs when they're breaking your front and you still don;t have enough Air units to deal with them. Ughh I think locusts should be uncontrollable, like they only attack to the rally point direction.
I have played some zerg players going Nydus really near your expansion then build spore crawlers near them. I just don't know what to do lol. Help Diamond-Plat player here
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Hey guys, I was wondering if the Bisu Build works now in PvZ. It seems to be much better on paper; void rays tear through armored structures / units with ease and Dark Shrine is cheaper than ever. Is it viable or would the zerg player just make roach and destroy your base?
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On February 02 2013 01:03 nomyx wrote: Hey guys, I was wondering if the Bisu Build works now in PvZ. It seems to be much better on paper; void rays tear through armored structures / units with ease and Dark Shrine is cheaper than ever. Is it viable or would the zerg player just make roach and destroy your base?
I dont know if it works as a flat out playstyle that you can use consistantly. But if you open stargate, have a bunch of phoenix and then later transition into DT's then it can be very strong defensively.
The phoenix 5 range + the lowered cost of the dark shrine makes it a bit more viable in wol, but when being aggressive, spore crawlers act as both a detector to Dark Templar and a deterrent to phoenix/void ray harass, so it will be difficult getting damage done.
Another reason why this style is a little stronger is that the infestor has fallen greatly out of popularity for the time being. in wol, infestors gave a method of detection and rooting through their fungal which made both dt's and and phoenix difficult to utilize in mid map engagements.
With all that said, I think yes, phoenix/void ray + dt's can be viable through good control. Dont expect to kill a zerg with it, however I do think its possible to play very greedy and use it defensively until they decide to attack you with something like mass speed-hydras + overseers (Which can be very scary) But I imagine a Psi-storm/chargelot archon composition can be transitioned to in time to defend.
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For those of you who are wondering if the HOTS leagues are tougher, think about it. Do you think casual gamers are playing Beta? By and large, I can assure you the answer is no. Your playing all of the SC2 Junkies and hardcore gamers.
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On February 02 2013 05:52 Obamanation666 wrote: For those of you who are wondering if the HOTS leagues are tougher, think about it. Do you think casual gamers are playing Beta? By and large, I can assure you the answer is no. Your playing all of the SC2 Junkies and hardcore gamers. Yeah I think something is definitely wrong with leagues. I was top master one year ago, and I'm now plat on Hots. I mean I've never seen plat with those mechanics and multitask. I may be a bit rusty for sure, but still, I was expecting to be in diamond :p
Anyway, I'm now having a good time on Hots beside PvZ. I've so much troubles with this mu. I'm at 85% in pvp, 60% in pvt and 20% in pvz, something goes really bad. My main issue is that I'm so scared of mutas, and then they just switch to hydras and I'm done. I will need a lot of practice to figure out this mu :-/
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On February 02 2013 05:52 Obamanation666 wrote: For those of you who are wondering if the HOTS leagues are tougher, think about it. Do you think casual gamers are playing Beta? By and large, I can assure you the answer is no. Your playing all of the SC2 Junkies and hardcore gamers.
I can assure you the answer is yes, i'm in Masters and i've played against Platinum > Grand Master players that belong in WoL Silver.
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Does anybody have any suggestions about defending hellbat drops? Obviously a good probe spread is always useful, but which units should I pull to kill them off? It seems like everything sucks against them.
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On February 02 2013 09:18 Gevna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 05:52 Obamanation666 wrote: For those of you who are wondering if the HOTS leagues are tougher, think about it. Do you think casual gamers are playing Beta? By and large, I can assure you the answer is no. Your playing all of the SC2 Junkies and hardcore gamers. Yeah I think something is definitely wrong with leagues. I was top master one year ago, and I'm now plat on Hots. I mean I've never seen plat with those mechanics and multitask. I may be a bit rusty for sure, but still, I was expecting to be in diamond :p Anyway, I'm now having a good time on Hots beside PvZ. I've so much troubles with this mu. I'm at 85% in pvp, 60% in pvt and 20% in pvz, something goes really bad. My main issue is that I'm so scared of mutas, and then they just switch to hydras and I'm done. I will need a lot of practice to figure out this mu :-/
I seen this before in another thread. The answer is: Defensive: phoneix into fast archons into storm research. Aggressive: In WoL, multi-prong zealot+prism drops to keep Z pinned spending gas on roaches/banes while either massing 2/2 blink stalkers or teching to HT. In hots, I'm guessing timing attack zealots + MSC would be alternative.
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On February 02 2013 09:43 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 05:52 Obamanation666 wrote: For those of you who are wondering if the HOTS leagues are tougher, think about it. Do you think casual gamers are playing Beta? By and large, I can assure you the answer is no. Your playing all of the SC2 Junkies and hardcore gamers. I can assure you the answer is yes, i'm in Masters and i've played against Platinum > Grand Master players that belong in WoL Silver.
No the ladder is definatly harder. Yes ok, i went up from bronze to gold in a few games, and still having 80%+ winrate, even tough i only just started playing. But being master in WoL i have a pretty good sense what the level of my opponent is, and the players simply have better mechanics, map awareness, strategy then players of the same league in WoL. But perhaps the fact that koreans are on the server too (i think?)..explains alot .
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PVP ive lost my last 3 games - all of them just go 1 base 3 gate robo timing - I take a natural have an eco advantage but still die
Wow all matches played today, the economic graph for me is like way better than the opponents - I die to a one base attack I thought the rite way to learn and play is to macro (
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On February 03 2013 01:17 vahgar.r24 wrote:PVP ive lost my last 3 games - all of them just go 1 base 3 gate robo timing - I take a natural have an eco advantage but still die Wow all matches played today, the economic graph for me is like way better than the opponents - I die to a one base attack I thought the rite way to learn and play is to macro (
According to axslav the right way to learn the game is to master 1base all-ins, then work your way up to 2base allins..(or something like that he said!) untill you are master league. Because what most people dont realise is that there are alot of subtle things in macro play that are just not good for starting players to learn all at once.
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On February 03 2013 01:17 vahgar.r24 wrote:PVP ive lost my last 3 games - all of them just go 1 base 3 gate robo timing - I take a natural have an eco advantage but still die Wow all matches played today, the economic graph for me is like way better than the opponents - I die to a one base attack I thought the rite way to learn and play is to macro (
I don't know what league you are so this my be very obvious if you're dia+ but if you're below you might find it helpful:
A one base all-in sacrifies all economy for units. You say you have a natural with probes, that's 400 mins + 50xAmount_of_probes, while he probably stops at 24~ probes. This mean you ofc will be at a disadvantage when he attacks, simply because you and your opponent invested in different part of the game (he invests in early game and you in late game).
Before I realised this I always thought I had to hold flawless to win. But when I started to pull probes at once (if you have a nexus up and he doesn't you can pull all nat probes cause you will replenish them really fast with twice the probe production). Sometimes I even see his all-in coming, walk up my ramp and sack my natural, you will not be as behind as you might think (since you have more probes you will be able to saturate your natural much faster than him if you both go for expo when you've traded armies).
So the main point is, if you're going eco you must be willing to sacrifice some of your advantage to hold an attack from a player who hasn't invested in eco at all.
As I said, I might be Captain Obvious saying these things but I really found it helpful when I died to all-ins all the time
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So... I pulled a Nestea and threw away a won game. Around the 20 min mark I'm 190 supply to 120...
PvT on Newkirk City. I'm WoL diamond, I have no idea what he was :D
He opens up cc first and I go for a late nexus with some early oracle harass which do decent (8 kills and continue to get some more in the mid game). Problem is that I am... better. Really, I get my expansions up earlier and my army is always superior to his. The problem is that he goes for sooo much aoe that I just can't get good engagements.
He has maaany widow mines and I do catch some (I send a zealot in front to take the damage) but I obviously miss some, he uses ravens for those damn hsm and tanks in the back. he also uses a lot of hellbats. I have no idea how to deal with this... I'd appreciate any tips on how to beat this. I was gonna harass with dts but since he had widow mines all over the map I didn't wanna lose them...
I tried some warp prism warpins in his main but they didn't do much. My zealots died to his hellbats, my stalkers died to his tanks in the back and I never got any good colossus count (he had vikings too )
The "only" flaw I find in my own gameplay is that my upgrades are pretty poor. I stay on one forge for the whole game but damn it, I was so far ahead?
Here's the replay http://drop.sc/301652 thanks for watching!
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On February 03 2013 08:04 NVRLand wrote:So... I pulled a Nestea and threw away a won game. Around the 20 min mark I'm 190 supply to 120... PvT on Newkirk City. I'm WoL diamond, I have no idea what he was :D He opens up cc first and I go for a late nexus with some early oracle harass which do decent (8 kills and continue to get some more in the mid game). Problem is that I am... better. Really, I get my expansions up earlier and my army is always superior to his. The problem is that he goes for sooo much aoe that I just can't get good engagements. He has maaany widow mines and I do catch some (I send a zealot in front to take the damage) but I obviously miss some, he uses ravens for those damn hsm and tanks in the back. he also uses a lot of hellbats. I have no idea how to deal with this... I'd appreciate any tips on how to beat this. I was gonna harass with dts but since he had widow mines all over the map I didn't wanna lose them... I tried some warp prism warpins in his main but they didn't do much. My zealots died to his hellbats, my stalkers died to his tanks in the back and I never got any good colossus count (he had vikings too ) The "only" flaw I find in my own gameplay is that my upgrades are pretty poor. I stay on one forge for the whole game but damn it, I was so far ahead? Here's the replay http://drop.sc/301652thanks for watching!
You were 20 workers ahead of him about 10 minutes into the game. You're right; you should have won. Zealots and Stalkers are terrible against mech. You decided to go with a pure gateway force, but waited until you were maxed out on mostly stalkers to attack into him, and then take your third.
Your second attack force is a much better composition as the archons are much better damage dealers. You still have way too many stalkers, but the superior size of your force allows you to push through just barely. Rather than going after his third or his fourth and then backing off and regrouping, which you should have done, you attacked into his natural and lost the few units you had remaining against his reinforcements.
In the third engagement, your army is trapped in a very narrow choke where you basically have no chance. You never once tried to seize the watchtowers, even after you did a ton of damage to his economy and needed to know when he was all-inning you, which he should have done.
I think you should either go double robo and single stargate or double stargate and single robo on two bases against mech. Double or even triple robo is good for chronoboosting out a lot of immortals which are really strong in straight up engagements in the mid-game. Double stargate allows you to slowly mass tempests to prepare for the late game. Void rays are good if they don't have a lot of vikings, marines, ravens, or thors. In the late game, voids should primarily be used to defend tempests from vikings. Blink stalkers are good if you can find good angles to harass or for defending tempests. Archons are strong if they don't have a lot of ghosts yet. Colossus are always good. Storm is great for defending against vikings. Hallucinate is always a nice damage absorber if they don't have scans. And use guardian shield.
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After getting ling all inned a few times on Newkirk and Akilon, I spent some time trying to figure out optimal FFE wall-offs for those maps. They might not suit everyone's tastes but I'll share them in case anybody is interested.
One thing to note- the hold position probe on the right-side Newkirk spawn has to be in a perfect spot otherwise it's easy to glitch lings through it. I'm not even sure if it's random or can be glitched out no matter what, but just keep that in mind when you're in that spot (if you see him posturing with a bunch of lings you might want to drop a pylon to be safe).
Akilon Bottom: http://i.imgur.com/NDn4FPl.jpg
Akilon Top: http://i.imgur.com/rZx6rvr.jpg
Newkirk Left: http://i.imgur.com/w7hhiFo.jpg
Newkirk Right: http://i.imgur.com/RfCeG3Q.jpg
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On February 03 2013 03:07 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 01:17 vahgar.r24 wrote:PVP ive lost my last 3 games - all of them just go 1 base 3 gate robo timing - I take a natural have an eco advantage but still die Wow all matches played today, the economic graph for me is like way better than the opponents - I die to a one base attack I thought the rite way to learn and play is to macro ( According to axslav the right way to learn the game is to master 1base all-ins, then work your way up to 2base allins..(or something like that he said!) untill you are master league. Because what most people dont realise is that there are alot of subtle things in macro play that are just not good for starting players to learn all at once.
I'm pretty sure he said that that is just how RTS games evolve. He's told me the best way to improve is to pick a 2 base all in and macro perfectly for the first 10 minutes. The point is not to win, but to work on macro/micro with a build that forces you to hit a clear timing and then multitask to keep your attack going.
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So what are your tips on dealing with the new medivacs ? Besides allining before they come into play ? Diamond/Master terrans, I have 150+ APM in SC2
I feel like stargate is the only viable way to play, because otherwise you can be attacked from any angle and he will never lose anything, because he can just pick up and zoom away. I usually maintain like 3-5 phoenixes for map control, but unless you get lucky and catch him long way away from your base, he can still run in and drop because they kill them so slowly. Blink stalkers don't really work unless he's flying over ground, because he can still turn around and not lose anything. Cannons are nice, but he just brings more medivacs and I'm screwed if I'm out of position.
My goto build has been stargate opening with reasonably fast expansion into robo+colo, but it seems to just not work against terrans who know what they are doing and don't just sit in their base. I'm not really using mothership core because I don't really see how it helps, maybe the recall ? The photon cannon is nice against ground pushes, but not drop harass.
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What's the best way to go double forge in pvt now? Is Nexus first more or less viable than in WoL pvt?
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On February 05 2013 04:07 Drowsy wrote: What's the best way to go double forge in pvt now? Is Nexus first more or less viable than in WoL pvt?
This answer is for both above posts:
I've started steering away from double forge in PvT for a while. As all 3 races have gotten a tad stronger, but protoss gateway units are still equally bad, it feels like you're forced now even more than before to get splash damage quickly. Nexus first still works like in WoL though, shouldn't be a huge problem. Watch for widow mines drops though. If you don't have detection by the time they arrive, you need to somehow stop them from entering your base completely. This is why I love starting stargate tech off one base before expanding. With a oracle you can quickly put pressure on him, and follow up with a couple of phoenix, which will stop drops effectively if you are active with them. Theres nothing that says you can't put them on patrol on popular dropping paths.
Feeling safe from drops and shenanigans, you need to be able to deal with his main army once his medivacs start hitting. Thats why you need to change to collosus rather quickly. From there you can go ht like in WoL, or to skytoss before adding those HTs (you really need those storms to deal with large numbers of bio. If he goes mech, then skytoss all the way is key).
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On February 04 2013 07:36 Zaphid wrote: So what are your tips on dealing with the new medivacs ? Besides allining before they come into play ? Diamond/Master terrans, I have 150+ APM in SC2
I feel like stargate is the only viable way to play, because otherwise you can be attacked from any angle and he will never lose anything, because he can just pick up and zoom away. I usually maintain like 3-5 phoenixes for map control, but unless you get lucky and catch him long way away from your base, he can still run in and drop because they kill them so slowly. Blink stalkers don't really work unless he's flying over ground, because he can still turn around and not lose anything. Cannons are nice, but he just brings more medivacs and I'm screwed if I'm out of position.
My goto build has been stargate opening with reasonably fast expansion into robo+colo, but it seems to just not work against terrans who know what they are doing and don't just sit in their base. I'm not really using mothership core because I don't really see how it helps, maybe the recall ? The photon cannon is nice against ground pushes, but not drop harass.
I was like 100-200 master NA in Wings and Ive been playing HotS PvP (bio) almost exactly the same as in WoL. I just 1g expo into 3g and then a robo. Get my gasses at 630 at my nat and my colo den and forge before 7:20. I just play the exact same. Sure their medivacs are faster but so what? Just have stalkers ready, if you get out of position just recall to your nexus closest to the drop. Use time warp on the terran army, the dps loss from the T from slower concaves and the dps gain from your zealots actually hitting them is quite ricockulous. Just play it the same, its almost the same match up. Just remember to use your mothership core, its defensive capabilites, all 3 spells are amazing. Hit a 3-3 timing and win.
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On February 06 2013 01:43 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 07:36 Zaphid wrote: So what are your tips on dealing with the new medivacs ? Besides allining before they come into play ? Diamond/Master terrans, I have 150+ APM in SC2
I feel like stargate is the only viable way to play, because otherwise you can be attacked from any angle and he will never lose anything, because he can just pick up and zoom away. I usually maintain like 3-5 phoenixes for map control, but unless you get lucky and catch him long way away from your base, he can still run in and drop because they kill them so slowly. Blink stalkers don't really work unless he's flying over ground, because he can still turn around and not lose anything. Cannons are nice, but he just brings more medivacs and I'm screwed if I'm out of position.
My goto build has been stargate opening with reasonably fast expansion into robo+colo, but it seems to just not work against terrans who know what they are doing and don't just sit in their base. I'm not really using mothership core because I don't really see how it helps, maybe the recall ? The photon cannon is nice against ground pushes, but not drop harass. I was like 100-200 master NA in Wings and Ive been playing HotS PvP (bio) almost exactly the same as in WoL. I just 1g expo into 3g and then a robo. Get my gasses at 630 at my nat and my colo den and forge before 7:20. I just play the exact same. Sure their medivacs are faster but so what? Just have stalkers ready, if you get out of position just recall to your nexus closest to the drop. Use time warp on the terran army, the dps loss from the T from slower concaves and the dps gain from your zealots actually hitting them is quite ricockulous. Just play it the same, its almost the same match up. Just remember to use your mothership core, its defensive capabilites, all 3 spells are amazing. Hit a 3-3 timing and win. Thanks, I'll look into MsC more
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Can someone give me a rough BO for a voidray all-in PvT? Thanks.
EDIT: found one for WoL on liquipedia seems to work. On another note can someone give me a good 1 base all-in vs toss?
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Any other players having a hard time with the medivac drop with those speed boosters? I just played a game on Cloud Kingdom and I was running back and forth between my main and third for like 10 minutes, and just got drop harassed to death. And I actually had the better macro going.
Anybody else think this could become a major problem?
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I've got massive problems at PvP when my opponent went for a stargate play. I currently prefer archons (in other words: i am trying around during beta, currently with archons mixed in in my army) and it works pretty good.
But as I noticed in nearly every PvP when my opponent goes stargate with massing up voidrays (well, 6-8 are enough) it's hardl to counter. I would even say impossible. Thos Voidrays just crush my army in seconds. Massing up stalkers, sentries with guardian shields and even mass archons won't help.
Transitioning to stargate is a bad idea imho, because my enemy will have upgrade and production facility advantages. Any ideas?
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On February 06 2013 12:38 elfetido wrote: I've got massive problems at PvP when my opponent went for a stargate play. I currently prefer archons (in other words: i am trying around during beta, currently with archons mixed in in my army) and it works pretty good.
But as I noticed in nearly every PvP when my opponent goes stargate with massing up voidrays (well, 6-8 are enough) it's hardl to counter. I would even say impossible. Thos Voidrays just crush my army in seconds. Massing up stalkers, sentries with guardian shields and even mass archons won't help.
Transitioning to stargate is a bad idea imho, because my enemy will have upgrade and production facility advantages. Any ideas?
I dont think its possible to win pvp lategame without going air yourself at this point.
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i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now
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On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now
Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too
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Can someone summarize the timings when you should make the MsC in all 3 matchups? From what I've learned so far from streams only is that : in PvP you make it after the Stargate/council/robo (a.k.a 1st t2 tech of choice) in PvZ no idea when after FFE =D delay tech or make a MsC. I need insight on this in PvT if 1g FE, after the 3g + robo.
Insights guys, insights. Give me some more !
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On February 06 2013 12:38 elfetido wrote: I've got massive problems at PvP when my opponent went for a stargate play. I currently prefer archons (in other words: i am trying around during beta, currently with archons mixed in in my army) and it works pretty good.
But as I noticed in nearly every PvP when my opponent goes stargate with massing up voidrays (well, 6-8 are enough) it's hardl to counter. I would even say impossible. Thos Voidrays just crush my army in seconds. Massing up stalkers, sentries with guardian shields and even mass archons won't help.
Transitioning to stargate is a bad idea imho, because my enemy will have upgrade and production facility advantages. Any ideas?
you can't take on the void ray army on the first go, and what i mean is when they use the charge ability, the army dps is so high its almost impossible to win. So you would need to either engage the army and then immediately back off and regroup and attack again when the charge is on cooldown, or just keep going around the army and attacking places where the voidrays are not. Also vs mass void ray i really suggest getting storm, even getting the player to move his void rays to dodge the storms, they cannot attack and move at the same time, thus the dps of the army goes down just so they cuold dodge the storms. But, yea main thing, dont attack when they have the ability to use the charged attack.
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Has anyone Proxy 2 gated yet? how well does it work in HoTs? I know just normal 2 gate is weak in HoTS.
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On February 07 2013 14:31 JimTheCat wrote: Has anyone Proxy 2 gated yet? how well does it work in HoTs? I know just normal 2 gate is weak in HoTS.
i mean it still works. I had one game where i got proxied but i just ran my probes until i got the msc out just to see if it would help. Theres just too many zealots at that point that, so going for it isn't really an option. You just defend it like you would normally.
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On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too so it is basicly air wars instead of collosus wars now?
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On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too I have been doing DT expand, which wins me a game here and there outright, then get charge and +1 and start +2 ground attack, cannons for your mineral line, if he continues to be annoying with phoenixes/oracles add HTs and do a timing off 8-9 gates with mass zealot/archon and just kill his expo/main nexus, because VRs do pitiful damage to zealots. Then you can just get blink and finish him off with mass stalker. Feedback the oracles and MsC. Unless he harasses you to hell with phoenixes you should be relatively fine, most people in diamond/low masters haven't figured out yet that you can wall off in PvP
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On February 07 2013 20:20 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too I have been doing DT expand, which wins me a game here and there outright, then get charge and +1 and start +2 ground attack, cannons for your mineral line, if he continues to be annoying with phoenixes/oracles add HTs and do a timing off 8-9 gates with mass zealot/archon and just kill his expo/main nexus, because VRs do pitiful damage to zealots. Then you can just get blink and finish him off with mass stalker. Feedback the oracles and MsC. Unless he harasses you to hell with phoenixes you should be relatively fine, most people in diamond/low masters haven't figured out yet that you can wall off in PvP
Yes, this can absolutely work. Not saying airtoss is the same as god mode. But if you let it get to lategame and you don't have air yourself, you're going to be in big trouble. I tried it once, where i ended up on 6 bases against his 3(later 4), since he had to play defensive untill he got his critical mass. Once maxed I just pounded him down with mass stalkers/archons/hts, traded ineffectively, and eventually managed to bring him down by throwing enough money at him
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On February 07 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 20:20 Zaphid wrote:On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too I have been doing DT expand, which wins me a game here and there outright, then get charge and +1 and start +2 ground attack, cannons for your mineral line, if he continues to be annoying with phoenixes/oracles add HTs and do a timing off 8-9 gates with mass zealot/archon and just kill his expo/main nexus, because VRs do pitiful damage to zealots. Then you can just get blink and finish him off with mass stalker. Feedback the oracles and MsC. Unless he harasses you to hell with phoenixes you should be relatively fine, most people in diamond/low masters haven't figured out yet that you can wall off in PvP Yes, this can absolutely work. Not saying airtoss is the same as god mode. But if you let it get to lategame and you don't have air yourself, you're going to be in big trouble. I tried it once, where i ended up on 6 bases against his 3(later 4), since he had to play defensive untill he got his critical mass. Once maxed I just pounded him down with mass stalkers/archons/hts, traded ineffectively, and eventually managed to bring him down by throwing enough money at him Yeah, I had a few games like that where I felt behind so I just turtled with stargates and won a few times where I honestly shouldn't, so I switched to doing the timing I mentioned. I'm interested how the meta develops, because I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being the strongest way to play, but due to variety of ways to exploit the transition you would see it only rarely.
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I just got the beta and while I'm not in a huge rush to drop WoL, I am excited to play this! I know Stargate is viable in all matchups now, but how as PvZ changed compared to WoL? That was the matchup giving me the most trouble in WoL.
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:27 Havik_ wrote: I just got the beta and while I'm not in a huge rush to drop WoL, I am excited to play this! I know Stargate is viable in all matchups now, but how as PvZ changed compared to WoL? That was the matchup giving me the most trouble in WoL.
Well void rays are good and so are tempests so mass brood lord infestor is significantly weaker.
Mutas are better, so you need to react to them appropriately with active scouting and phoenix are the best response.
With recall you can push and go back home if need be.
But you still need to transition well to match their tech transitions or you lose. So overall its better, some would say protoss favoured but in the end transitions will be what really kills you in hots so if they are poor for you then you will have a hard time.
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Yeah, you often need 3-4 robos/stargates to accommodate lategame tech switches, because warpgate units are a bit weaker overall.
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how do you deal with nydus+swarm hosts+overseer+hydralisk/corruptor
I faced both of those variations where they sieged up and I felt helpless. This usually happens a little bit after I secure a 3rd base. How do I engage this tactic? Do I need to just tech straight to tempest asap and abuse the range advantage or is that going to take too long?
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I've been getting nothing but cheesed so far on ladder. Certainly not making me excited for this game.
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On February 08 2013 11:58 .kv wrote: how do you deal with nydus+swarm hosts+overseer+hydralisk/corruptor
I faced both of those variations where they sieged up and I felt helpless. This usually happens a little bit after I secure a 3rd base. How do I engage this tactic? Do I need to just tech straight to tempest asap and abuse the range advantage or is that going to take too long? Don't go for Tempest. They suck unkess specifically used to counter BLs. You want to be going fast Colossus against zswarm Host or Hydra, obviously with a strong backbone of gateway units. Since Zerflg has a very mobile composition and since we're discussing Nydus, you want maybe 2 observers out if going Robo to spot for Overlords/overseers, and if going Stargate, your Phoenixes or leftover Oracles need to be scouting blind spots for potential Nydus play. Also, you want pylons at the edges ofnyour bases so the perimeter doesn't have blind spots. Half the battle is denying lthe nydus in the first place, which requires good minimap awareness. Against Corruptor + Swarm Host or + Hydra, you need to use Forcefields to zone out Locusts/ Hydras from hitting your Stalkers while Colossi deal damage and your Stalkers focus down Corruptors. If you can abuse the range of Colossi in conjunction with forcefields you can prevent his army from attackkng you, either forcing him back or drawing corruptors into stalker fire. But as for the nydusnaspect, the ketly really is having everything covered with pylons, air units, and observers; as soon as an overseer pops in, or if you see the nydus start to pop, you immediately want to use your MSC to recall back and kill it asap. The MSC allows you to freely move out and be aggressive, while still being able to recall back to deal with any nydus aggression.
For Swarm Hosts specifically, you need Blink Stalkers with your Colossi and Sentries. You want to time your Boink ontop of the Swarm Hosts to be right between Locust spawns; have the Colossi kill the Locusts (careful to micro your Observers not to lose them) andBlink on top of the Swarm Hosts and start picking them off before they soawn the next wave. If you time it just right, you should be able to force them to unburrowand try to run.
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what protoss comp beats hellbat/viking/tank? terran mech give me a lot of trouble in PvT. If I build immortals, they just shoot at the hellbats in front. Zealots die instantly to hellbats. I tried going pure oracle/ void ray but it only slightly lengthens the game to make way for thors which annihilate all protoss air
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On February 08 2013 17:11 Havik_ wrote:I've been getting nothing but cheesed so far on ladder. Certainly not making me excited for this game.
Not surprised. Remember double proxy reaper cheese during beta, or 2 Thor-SCV infinite repair cheese?
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On February 09 2013 02:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:11 Havik_ wrote:I've been getting nothing but cheesed so far on ladder. Certainly not making me excited for this game. Not surprised. Remember double proxy reaper cheese during beta, or 2 Thor-SCV infinite repair cheese?
I started playing in summer 2011, so I don't remember that. :p
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Obviously many new combinations of units have opened up and become useful again since zerg stopped using infestors. Colossi are shit agaisnt vipers so what is you new go to comp in PvZ? How do you play it out?
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Stupid PvZ. I'm 8gating every game until mutas are figured out once and for all. I figured out the basic muta stuff but now there are these crazy transitions into mutas popping up and the feel so much harder to defend.
It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating.
Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won.
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On February 09 2013 09:19 Ben... wrote: Stupid PvZ. I'm 8gating every game until mutas are figured out once and for all. I figured out the basic muta stuff but now there are these crazy transitions into mutas popping up and the feel so much harder to defend.
It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating.
Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won. U can get keep scouting with hallucination to see muta transition and go triple stargate phoenix to easily shut it down. From there go skytoss with storm which is broken vs zerg atm, for examples on this watch rootminigun stream vods.
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On February 09 2013 09:19 Ben... wrote: Stupid PvZ. I'm 8gating every game until mutas are figured out once and for all. I figured out the basic muta stuff but now there are these crazy transitions into mutas popping up and the feel so much harder to defend.
It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating.
Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won.
what i found what really helped me out vs muta is get that oracle out there and get revelation(the aoe vision) on the pack of mutas. The oracle is faster than the mutas so it isnt that difficult to get the aoe vision on them. Now you have vision of the pack for a whole minute. If he is too far out you can attempt to expand and push out and whenever you see him try to harass you just simply have pre emptive defensive measures(nexus cannon msc blink stalkers storm the whole crew) waiting for him. THe mutas will most likely try to bait but you cant be too careful anyway. So whenever the aoe wears off you keep placing revelation on the mutas. W/o revelation, its so hard to spread out your units and then he just simply commits to one base and overruns your units.
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On February 08 2013 22:47 LF[Media] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 11:58 .kv wrote: how do you deal with nydus+swarm hosts+overseer+hydralisk/corruptor
I faced both of those variations where they sieged up and I felt helpless. This usually happens a little bit after I secure a 3rd base. How do I engage this tactic? Do I need to just tech straight to tempest asap and abuse the range advantage or is that going to take too long? Don't go for Tempest. They suck unkess specifically used to counter BLs. You want to be going fast Colossus against zswarm Host or Hydra, obviously with a strong backbone of gateway units. Since Zerflg has a very mobile composition and since we're discussing Nydus, you want maybe 2 observers out if going Robo to spot for Overlords/overseers, and if going Stargate, your Phoenixes or leftover Oracles need to be scouting blind spots for potential Nydus play. Also, you want pylons at the edges ofnyour bases so the perimeter doesn't have blind spots. Half the battle is denying lthe nydus in the first place, which requires good minimap awareness. Against Corruptor + Swarm Host or + Hydra, you need to use Forcefields to zone out Locusts/ Hydras from hitting your Stalkers while Colossi deal damage and your Stalkers focus down Corruptors. If you can abuse the range of Colossi in conjunction with forcefields you can prevent his army from attackkng you, either forcing him back or drawing corruptors into stalker fire. But as for the nydusnaspect, the ketly really is having everything covered with pylons, air units, and observers; as soon as an overseer pops in, or if you see the nydus start to pop, you immediately want to use your MSC to recall back and kill it asap. The MSC allows you to freely move out and be aggressive, while still being able to recall back to deal with any nydus aggression. For Swarm Hosts specifically, you need Blink Stalkers with your Colossi and Sentries. You want to time your Boink ontop of the Swarm Hosts to be right between Locust spawns; have the Colossi kill the Locusts (careful to micro your Observers not to lose them) andBlink on top of the Swarm Hosts and start picking them off before they soawn the next wave. If you time it just right, you should be able to force them to unburrowand try to run.
thanks for the help but I'm referring to a Nydus outside my base rather in my base...I can't really see where the nydus is going to be planted out there
but yeah I'm just having a hard time maintaining detection b/c of the corruptors hovering over the swarm hosts with an overseer while the locusts eventually breaks my wall (for example on daybreak at my 3rd...I tend to make a gateway wall and it'll be broken down and just swarm of locusts come...this variation tends to influence a lot of queens as well which makes it even harder b/c of transfuse)
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Anybody have some builds or openers they recommend vs Terran? I know you can still Immortal sentry Zergs, but against Terran what should I do? I like aggressive builds, but not necessarily cheese. I just don't know what to do vs Terran, they seem really strong atm. any early pressure seems to be shut down from widow mines.
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On February 09 2013 14:37 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 09:19 Ben... wrote: Stupid PvZ. I'm 8gating every game until mutas are figured out once and for all. I figured out the basic muta stuff but now there are these crazy transitions into mutas popping up and the feel so much harder to defend.
It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating.
Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won. what i found what really helped me out vs muta is get that oracle out there and get revelation(the aoe vision) on the pack of mutas. The oracle is faster than the mutas so it isnt that difficult to get the aoe vision on them. Now you have vision of the pack for a whole minute. If he is too far out you can attempt to expand and push out and whenever you see him try to harass you just simply have pre emptive defensive measures(nexus cannon msc blink stalkers storm the whole crew) waiting for him. THe mutas will most likely try to bait but you cant be too careful anyway. So whenever the aoe wears off you keep placing revelation on the mutas. W/o revelation, its so hard to spread out your units and then he just simply commits to one base and overruns your units.
No, the oracle is slower than the mutalisk. 3.375 speed on the oracle, 4 on the mutalisk. You're going to have to sacrifice the oracle, but I suppose it can buy you some time. Mutas have a 0.625 speed lead on the Oracle; the range on Revelation is 9, and the mutalisk range is 3. With the following assumptions:
- The mutas are moving in a tightly clumped winged blob of death
- There's enough to kill the oracle in one shot (18 without any upgrades, goes down to 16, 15, 14 respectively per mutalisk attack upgrade level)
- The zerg reacts instantly as Revelation is cast
- The protoss also retreats instantly with the oracle, going in the exact direction from which he arrived
Then it's going to take him 9,6 seconds to catch up to the oracle and get close enough to take it down. In reality you'll have some more time due to the assumptions we took there. If you're like 35 tiles away (should be roughly the same distance a screen's width on 1680x1050, if I'm not mistaken) from your anti air force, you should be able to save the oracle or force some muta losses if they decide to go for it.
Either way, that oracle's going to come in handy. Since the energy regen rate is 0.5625 (datamined from the editor) and you need 75 mana for a Revelation, that's going to give you one Revelation per 133 + 1/3 seconds. Spend 300 gas on two Oracles and you might be able to get constant vision on the muta pack, if everything goes well.
@Ben: Cool idea with the phoenixes against the hellbat drop, I'll definitely have to check it out. Thanks!
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Anyone knows how to counter the mech builds of terran? Even if I defend vs the hellbat drop nicely, I have problems finding a proper composition vs his mech (mines,thors,tanks,widows,hellbats,medvac,vikings).
Any suggestions on what to do?
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On February 09 2013 19:38 Flamm wrote: Anyone knows how to counter the mech builds of terran? Even if I defend vs the hellbat drop nicely, I have problems finding a proper composition vs his mech (mines,thors,tanks,widows,hellbats,medvac,vikings).
Any suggestions on what to do? http://bg.twitch.tv/eghuk/b/364249082 Watch this VOD
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I really don't get this game at all. So the best way to win now is to turtle and get 200/200 of Skytoss, Templar? Its a bummer to me how they buff skytoss, but give other races tools to handle everything else better so Protoss is forced to go air now? I don't know. I'd love to see tournament gameplay for hots to help me figure this out, because IDK what to do now. I think I'll just keep doing WoL builds for now.
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On February 11 2013 12:46 Havik_ wrote: I really don't get this game at all. So the best way to win now is to turtle and get 200/200 of Skytoss, Templar? Its a bummer to me how they buff skytoss, but give other races tools to handle everything else better so Protoss is forced to go air now? I don't know. I'd love to see tournament gameplay for hots to help me figure this out, because IDK what to do now. I think I'll just keep doing WoL builds for now.
I think that there is an emphasis on lategame turtle skytoss/templar right now because it's both easily accessible and familiar to people who played WoL -- but I really don't think that will remain the only legit way to play macro protoss. The mothership core opens up a bunch of faux all-in timings (for both ground and air troops) and the new air units have much more synergy with each other in lower numbers. A small squad of void rays and oracles with a mothership core could do a lot of damage in the hands of a skilled player. Phoenix and DTs are also better options for midgame harass and that kind of stuff will let a skilled player utilize his multitask. I think over time we're going to see a lot more PvZs looking like old-school TvZs, but of course only time will truly tell (a major balance/design change could be only days away)
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TL;DR: I have to agree with Erik on that. Skytoss is the strongest lategame army for us and it's the only one that gives us some sort of map control in all three matchups. The style that is used to get to that army is essentially the same as playing WoL PvZ so we kinda know already what we need to do.
With the current, very fragile, meta in HotS you either go for a 1base all-in against protoss/terran or turtle up until you get your very strong ultra lategame skytoss army. Some of the core problems with the protoss mechanics haven't changed at all with Hots. You still can't walk across the map in either PvT or PvZ during the early- and mid-game without being kinda all-in(ish).
Terran drops have become even more frightening as hellbats beat up your gateway units in both cost and supply. Playing against someone going bio has not really changed at all from your point of view. Their drops are harder to deflect, but that's about all if you don't run into someone who mixes up his bio with some hellbats. Playing against mech is really awkward. You always have to leave a good chunk of units behind in case of hellbat or widowmine drops as cannons alone can not handle them. You, on the other hand, can not really attack into a meching player who is turtling. The only way that I know of attacking into a meching player are 1base all-ins (blink + MsC and Voidrays + Gateways). And since hellbat/siegetank/thor counter everything you could field on the ground your best bet is to turtle up aswell and directly tech into skytoss. I usually always build 3-5 phoenix during the midgame to intercept drops, gain map control and do some harassing. Oracles are only really useful as a scouting unit in the lategame when army positioning is key.
In PvP you have that strange foodchain of phoenix > voidray > robo units > gateway units that applies to every game that is not a 1base all-in. While the counter to colossi in WoL was "more colossi" it has completely changed in HotS. Voidrays obliterate everything that comes out of the robo. Rain vs. Flying is a good example where Rain triumphed because he had a larger voidray count in the lategame. But there is one thing that counters voidrays: phoenix. So in order to get the better lategame composition you first need to establish air dominance. If both go for the same route and none is playing an all-in off of 1 base it usually ends in a mass phoenix vs. mass phoenix battle where the winner of that takes the game. So yeah, skytoss again.
The general dynamic of PvZ has not really changed that much in HotS. You still can't really move across the map without commiting to it, the MsC is too fragile to rely on. Zerg ground army is much more potent though. Hydras are faster, ultras are better, we don't have a realy ground to ground anwer to swarmhosts and vipers can abduct our colossi. Mutas received a speed and regen buff aswell which makes dealing with them even harder if you don't have phoenix. So you either do your enhanced soultrain all-in - which gets shut down by swarmhosts pretty hard btw. - or you turtle up behind a wall of cannons and tech to your best lategame army, Skytoss. Phoenix give you map control until he has a bunch of infestors out and they usuall shut down the muta tech. Tempests give you the ability to siege his bases and force engagements. Besides, with the buffs that the Zerg ground army received there really is no reason to build up your own ground army. Swarmhosts can't shoot air and neither can ultralisks.
So yeah, overall there is not much reason to not play skytoss in almost every matchup except for terrans going bio. Part of that is that skytoss is arguably the strongest lategame composition that all 3 races have - kinda like the broodlord infestor. I would actually agree with that statement but there really is not much you can do except completely rebalance and design the protoss race. Our ground army received no buffs at all with HotS while the other races got new and shiny toys that appear to be made to counter our ground deathball.
Although most people don't really care about team matches those things that I mentioned above are a reason why protoss has huge problems in team matches. All the new HotS 2vs2 maps have wide open expansions that are almost impossible to hold and it's really rare that you get to more than 2 bases. With our ground army being lackluster and skytoss requiring some hardcore economy to produce we are essentially forced to either 1-base all-in or turtle on 2 bases until they are mined out to then do a huge ass push across the whole map.
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^ Very well put. The either all in or turtle strategy choices will make Protoss easy for the first couple months of this game, however it will be boring as hell and I imagine Skytoss will get nerfed shortly after release. I just have that feeling about it. The top two things I would have loved to see Protoss get with this expansion they didn't get at all. Buffed gateway units and/or a new gateway unit on the Twilight Council(just the council itself, not the Templar tech). Although I haven't played against it yet, I find it puzzling as to why they would make Terran drops stronger with the medivac boost hellbats and Widow mines while also buffing mutas and don't give Protoss any other option other than to open air. The only bright side to all of this is that instead of having to open Robo every game in WoL, you now have to open Stargate in every game in HoTS. I sure as hell am not paying $40 for this game though. I'll wait for a sale or just stick to WoL for a bit longer and watch tournaments. Its a shame because the new features they've added are incredible. Unranked MM, resume from replay, etc.
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Austria24413 Posts
What's the generally safest way to open stargate in PvZ atm? Just started playing HotS myself. It feels like this surprise oracle thing is really strong but is it safe? You won't have a lot of scouting intel and I reckon that if they skip a roach warren and go straight into hydra you're pretty much dead. The funny thing is, if you send a hallucinated phoenix to see what tech they're going for, they'll actually assume it's a real phoenix and get spores up, lol. So do you hallucinate a phoenix and then make sure it dies to a queen so they'll cancel their spores again? LOL. For now I'm just doing standard WoL stargate with either void ray first or 4 phoenixes -> robo -> third.
My next question would be how you deal with swarm hosts with that build. Swarm host/hydra with overseers currently looks strong as FFFFFFFF to me if you go colossus as a followup. So... do you skip the robo completely and go twilight council instead? stargate -> twilight seems reaaaaally unstable to me. Stargate -> robo -> twilight + robo bay -> templar archives seems really slow.
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Oracles don't really do that much in PvZ as an early- or lategame harass unit. I much rather open with phoenix and directly follow up with either colossi or storm to make sure to not die against a ling/roach/hydra push. Once that is established you can build up your skytoss army with a solid voidray core. You don't really need that many tempests as their dps is quite low (9ish) against non-massive units, just build some for the positional play. A few carriers without interceptor-upgrade are a good sponge as he either has to manually focus fire, causing a lot of overkill, or lose dps to the interceptors if he a-moves. If you want to hallucinate something, pick the oracle. Since it won't shoot air he doesn't know whether it's a real one or not and might build a few spores too much. Hallucinating a 3-4 oracles and seeing the zerg player completely freak out is great fun btw...
You can't really fight swarmhosts with ground units unless you have a critical amount of colossi or manage to get a good flank right after they spawned their set of locusts. I usually break the contain with voidrays and a bunch of phoenix to lift the queens while the voidrays gun down the swarmhosts. If they already have hydras though... Enough colossi to one-shot the locusts, I guess. Or storm, whatever you prefer.
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I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener).
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener).
Actually the immortal all in is still pretty viable I feel, especially with new mothership core. Time warp + FF + recall if it goes terribly wrong. Not sure what's changed, zerg changes didn't affect early game very much.
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Very true; you can use a half-baked version of it to pressure and take your 3rd behind it and just recall. And @ Mikelius; your friend is correct, you should heed his advice; 2 base all-ins are a great way to build mechanics, and that's how I started out in PvZ and PvT. It really helps as you have a definite goal and ceiling, allowing you to just refine your mechanics and see how much more efficiently you can execute said strategy.
On February 11 2013 18:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What's the generally safest way to open stargate in PvZ atm? Just started playing HotS myself. It feels like this surprise oracle thing is really strong but is it safe? You won't have a lot of scouting intel and I reckon that if they skip a roach warren and go straight into hydra you're pretty much dead. The funny thing is, if you send a hallucinated phoenix to see what tech they're going for, they'll actually assume it's a real phoenix and get spores up, lol. So do you hallucinate a phoenix and then make sure it dies to a queen so they'll cancel their spores again? LOL. For now I'm just doing standard WoL stargate with either void ray first or 4 phoenixes -> robo -> third.
My next question would be how you deal with swarm hosts with that build. Swarm host/hydra with overseers currently looks strong as FFFFFFFF to me if you go colossus as a followup. So... do you skip the robo completely and go twilight council instead? stargate -> twilight seems reaaaaally unstable to me. Stargate -> robo -> twilight + robo bay -> templar archives seems really slow. Opening Oracles is risky from FFE, as it's easy to shut down with Queens and spores; it's usually fine to open Oracles if you're going Gateway-expand, as your tech comes earlier, but if going Stargate off of FFE, you should probably just open up with 5 Phoenixes and do the usual Ovie hunting and Queen/drone killing and save the Phoenixes for map control; make sure you keep them alive until you confirm he is NOT going Mutalisk, at the very least, because if he is you will need to CB out more and probably get +1 air weapons. Against Swarm Hosts (same as Hydras), regardless of how you opened, you MUST get a Robo Bay ASAP and rush to Colossus, as Colossi are the only real way to hold off Swarm Hosts; Colossi, Blink Stalkers, and of course Observers are your best friend here. I wouldn't recommend trying to deal with SHs any other way, unless you can somehow manage to get Carriers (ROFL).
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On February 11 2013 18:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What's the generally safest way to open stargate in PvZ atm? Just started playing HotS myself. It feels like this surprise oracle thing is really strong but is it safe? You won't have a lot of scouting intel and I reckon that if they skip a roach warren and go straight into hydra you're pretty much dead. The funny thing is, if you send a hallucinated phoenix to see what tech they're going for, they'll actually assume it's a real phoenix and get spores up, lol. So do you hallucinate a phoenix and then make sure it dies to a queen so they'll cancel their spores again? LOL. For now I'm just doing standard WoL stargate with either void ray first or 4 phoenixes -> robo -> third.
My next question would be how you deal with swarm hosts with that build. Swarm host/hydra with overseers currently looks strong as FFFFFFFF to me if you go colossus as a followup. So... do you skip the robo completely and go twilight council instead? stargate -> twilight seems reaaaaally unstable to me. Stargate -> robo -> twilight + robo bay -> templar archives seems really slow.
The more PvZ I play the more I'm favoring opening robotics tech and using hallucinate to scout. I can scout a standard macro spire timing (around 10:30) with a hallucinated scout and reactively make phoenix for that. I've been watching Minigun's stream as well and he seems to favor this while going into templar tech against roach-hydra/infestor based armies. Then adding the stargate tech later on (around the time he takes a 4th base) and mixing in void rays and tempests. One thing to keep in mind is that going for colossus the same way you could in WoL is problematic because while it's great to have a few colossus vs a swarm host contain they don't really scale in the lategame like they did thanks to vipers and ultras being so much better. TT1 discussed some of this on his twitter over at https://twitter.com/ROOT_TT1 while giving Mana some tips.
I think a scary deathball will consist of immortals, archons, void rays, high templar and eventually some tempests/carriers with warp prisms to harass. An oracle also has untold potential in lategame since it's revelation can keep tabs on all the scary shit for an entire minute.
And while it might still be possible to open stargate (phoenix harass being the better followup in general -- oralces are too easily shut down and don't gain their utility until much later than a squad of phoenix do) I'm still not convinced that it's a solid option because it has quite a bit of trouble vs hydra swarm host or nydus queen swarm host timings. In order to survive those you pretty much need an immediate robotics for colossus tech and like I mentioned earlier, colossus just aren't as great in the matchup anymore.
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Austria24413 Posts
Pretty much my thoughts. Thinking of a new double stargate build. The new skillray does pretty well vs roaches so I'm pretty sure you could take a third off a few initial phoenixes and then skillrays with gateway support. If they make hydras/mutas you can continue phoenix production and go kill them with a gateway/stargate attack later. Infestors are not imba anymore (I think, haven't seen them at all yet) so I think this might be viable. Might be a bit cheesy but don't think it's all in anymore.
I'm also gonna try a wonky Tempest/DT strat. Because BW, damnit. Gonna be a 2 base all in and I'm gonna have one Tempest and one DT by 17 minutes or smth. Watch me win GSL
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On February 11 2013 22:38 DarkLordOlli wrote: Pretty much my thoughts. Thinking of a new double stargate build. The new skillray does pretty well vs roaches so I'm pretty sure you could take a third off a few initial phoenixes and then skillrays with gateway support. If they make hydras/mutas you can continue phoenix production and go kill them with a gateway/stargate attack later. Infestors are not imba anymore (I think, haven't seen them at all yet) so I think this might be viable. Might be a bit cheesy but don't think it's all in anymore.
I'm also gonna try a wonky Tempest/DT strat. Because BW, damnit. Gonna be a 2 base all in and I'm gonna have one Tempest and one DT by 17 minutes or smth. Watch me win GSL
I've seen white-ra screw around with some double-triple stargate builds but to be honest I think that style is not going to become standard or safe. Swarm hosts+ hydras are way too good vs it (I've seen earlier pushes without hydras and using nydus+ queens as well) and cannons are only going to hold for so long against swarm hosts.
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 11 2013 22:54 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:38 DarkLordOlli wrote: Pretty much my thoughts. Thinking of a new double stargate build. The new skillray does pretty well vs roaches so I'm pretty sure you could take a third off a few initial phoenixes and then skillrays with gateway support. If they make hydras/mutas you can continue phoenix production and go kill them with a gateway/stargate attack later. Infestors are not imba anymore (I think, haven't seen them at all yet) so I think this might be viable. Might be a bit cheesy but don't think it's all in anymore.
I'm also gonna try a wonky Tempest/DT strat. Because BW, damnit. Gonna be a 2 base all in and I'm gonna have one Tempest and one DT by 17 minutes or smth. Watch me win GSL I've seen white-ra screw around with some double-triple stargate builds but to be honest I think that style is not going to become standard or safe. Swarm hosts+ hydras are way too good vs it (I've seen earlier pushes without hydras and using nydus+ queens as well) and cannons are only going to hold for so long against swarm hosts.
Well the surprising part about would be the time the phoenixes hit. I can make 4 phoenix off 2 stargates and they'll hit way quicker than the usual 4 phoenix off 1 stargate. It's veeery likely not safe vs everything or standard-material but it throws standard timings out the window, hits earlier when they likely don't have any defense up. I should always be able to get the queens + drones. And I feel like the earlier I hit them with that, the more damage it does. With that almost guaranteed damage I don't think zerg can tech up to hydra/swarm host + actually produce those units in significant numbers before I have an army that's good enough to fight it. The amount of roaches they can produce is limited as well + delayed through sniping queens so I don't think there's really any way for me to roll over and die if I do initial damage and transition in time.
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On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener).
Thinking of batshit crazy 2 base all ins is the fun part of the new expansions!
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 12 2013 02:27 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener). Thinking of batshit crazy 2 base all ins is the fun part of the new expansions!
+2 blink all in... with RECALL :O I'm the Bisu of HotS.
Lol, can't wait for first GSL HotS season to see all the balls to the wall builds these guys are gonna do.
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As toss how do you FFE in this map ? There are 2 openings and one is very vulnerable to baneling busts
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On February 12 2013 22:50 vahgar.r24 wrote: As toss how do you FFE in this map ? There are 2 openings and one is very vulnerable to baneling busts
You veto it. Once you hit higher levels, zerg will never let you get to lategame, just swarm you with speedlings asap and make your life horrible.
Alternatively you can become an expert in holding ling runbys and go a heavy gateway centric gate-expand. The map discussed is Howling Peaks btw, image is broken for me. Umm, yeah, It's pretty difficult to block the whole entrance, so what I've been trying to do with no success is the old" Nexus part of the wall"-wall or ramp-nexus wall.
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Austria24413 Posts
Yeah you simply veto maps like that. It's the typical Blizzard map in an ok-ish map pool that shows they still have no idea. Maybe some pros come up with something in HotS but I doubt it.
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in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins?
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 13 2013 00:38 wajd wrote: in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins?
I think what happens then is you stop making oracles and make phoenixes instead. And if he doesn't make phoenixes you win the game. I think is how it works. But yeah, it's kinda like a cloak banshee TvT vs cloak banshee. There's no rhyme or reason to it, the one who does more damage and takes less wins. And it's smart to make a defensive viking once you figure out what's going on. In this case, the phoenixes are your vikings.
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I second LF[Media], against SH you need colossi, air is pretty risky, hydras are usually not far away. You need to watch out for the classic contain they set up while staying on two bases (they then double-expand). That's why I always put a robo asap against a 2-basing Zerg, while making some stalkers in case of the old fashioned 2base mutas.
@wajd: no, it's usually a draw, because both of you should have 2-3 stalkers in the mineral line before you can confirm the other player's tech anyway. It's kinda mandatory. Frankly oracles are being figured out pretty quickly by zergs and toss. Terran suffers the most (proxy stargate can be strong, especially since half of Ts go mech).
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Don't want to reveal my secrets, but I usually go Oracle -> Phoenix blind, as the phoenix alone can defend the mineral line against oracle, and then aggro with 3gate stalker mothership core with the oracle harassing the back of his base. Phoenix can also chase down any eventual warp prisms, and if he in some genious way decides to go robo, phoenixes can lift the immortal or chase the colossus.
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On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener).
Builds from WoL that can be slightly modified as all-ins for HotS:
PvZ +1 Blink (a MsC increases the viability of this, cheaper dark shrine enables an easier DT transition) 7-Gate Warp Prism Drop (identical to WoL) Immortal/Sentry All-In (it's slightly weaker because of hydras and burrow micro possibilities, but still viable) Warp Prism DT Harass (slightly less all-innish) +1 4 Gate (again, not an all-in, but you can do a lot of damage with it) ^^ I've been adding a Stargate to the above and tried a Void Ray/MsC/Zealot/Sentry build that's a little more of an all-in, but I've never written down the exact timings, it gets to his third around 8:00
PvT (1 base all-ins are better, 2 base all-ins don't translate quite as well) 4 Gate Blink with MsC (start the twilight council before researching blink) Proxy Stargate 4 gate w/ void rays and/or oracles Proxy Robo 4 gate w/ Immortals Cannon Rush Proxy Gateway into Cannon Rush Proxy Gateways w Pylon Block to prevent a wall-off
And, of course, there's always 3 gate pressure expands or 4 gate all-ins
When you're planning these builds, it's frequently possible to learn a follow-up all-in to do in case the first all-in fails. And yes, I've tried most of these builds at least once in HotS.
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On February 13 2013 09:58 FlyingBeer wrote: 4 Gate Blink with MsC (start the twilight council before researching blink)
Is there any other way? o.O
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On February 13 2013 10:07 Deckard.666 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 09:58 FlyingBeer wrote: 4 Gate Blink with MsC (start the twilight council before researching blink)
Is there any other way? o.O
Yes, you can Research Blink before Twilight Council if you build 2 of them.
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woops, I meant to write start the twilight council before researching warp gate
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3 Gate Void Ray was already good in WoL, so it must be godly now in Hots combined with the MSC and the Void Ray buff.
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On February 13 2013 00:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 00:38 wajd wrote: in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins? I think what happens then is you stop making oracles and make phoenixes instead. And if he doesn't make phoenixes you win the game. I think is how it works. But yeah, it's kinda like a cloak banshee TvT vs cloak banshee. There's no rhyme or reason to it, the one who does more damage and takes less wins. And it's smart to make a defensive viking once you figure out what's going on. In this case, the phoenixes are your vikings.
It comes down to 2 things: 1. You should already have a stalker out and more on the way. 2. I always open phoenix instead of oracle. If he goes for the oracle I already have the blind counter and I am already 1 phoenix ahead in the inevitable phoenix vs. phoenix war. If I open oracle and he opens phoenix I am kinda screwed. If he opens voidray I am already 1 step/phoenix ahead.
There really is no reason to go oracle first. I mean, sure, you can hope that your opponent is some bronze dude who forgot that oracles exists but that is not something I count on. The phoenix is not the vikings because the phoenix is your core unit when both players open stargate. A phoenix in PvP is way more useful than a viking is in TvT and you would end up building phoenix anyway.
The only thing that screws the phoenix first over is a blink all-in. You just have to scout for that and chrono voidrays out instead.
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 13 2013 13:53 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 00:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 13 2013 00:38 wajd wrote: in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins? I think what happens then is you stop making oracles and make phoenixes instead. And if he doesn't make phoenixes you win the game. I think is how it works. But yeah, it's kinda like a cloak banshee TvT vs cloak banshee. There's no rhyme or reason to it, the one who does more damage and takes less wins. And it's smart to make a defensive viking once you figure out what's going on. In this case, the phoenixes are your vikings. It comes down to 2 things: 1. You should already have a stalker out and more on the way. 2. I always open phoenix instead of oracle. If he goes for the oracle I already have the blind counter and I am already 1 phoenix ahead in the inevitable phoenix vs. phoenix war. If I open oracle and he opens phoenix I am kinda screwed. If he opens voidray I am already 1 step/phoenix ahead. There really is no reason to go oracle first. I mean, sure, you can hope that your opponent is some bronze dude who forgot that oracles exists but that is not something I count on. The phoenix is not the vikings because the phoenix is your core unit when both players open stargate. A phoenix in PvP is way more useful than a viking is in TvT and you would end up building phoenix anyway. The only thing that screws the phoenix first over is a blink all-in. You just have to scout for that and chrono voidrays out instead.
Actually the phoenix is 100% identical to the viking in TvT. Vikings are the most important unit in TvT if both players open banshee. The one who has air control wins the ground war. Just like it is with phoenixes, the one who has more phoenixes has air control and will eventually be able to transition. If your opponent has no phoenixes and you have some, suddenly you can throw in void rays and the game will end. But I agree, there really is no reason to go Oracle first, hence I always open phoenix. Robo builds seem to be completely dead atm. Blink is thrown in to kill stargate builds. So the only time you go robo is if you mindgame your opponent into thinking you're going stargate so he goes blink.
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On February 13 2013 18:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 13:53 Nezgar wrote:On February 13 2013 00:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 13 2013 00:38 wajd wrote: in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins? I think what happens then is you stop making oracles and make phoenixes instead. And if he doesn't make phoenixes you win the game. I think is how it works. But yeah, it's kinda like a cloak banshee TvT vs cloak banshee. There's no rhyme or reason to it, the one who does more damage and takes less wins. And it's smart to make a defensive viking once you figure out what's going on. In this case, the phoenixes are your vikings. It comes down to 2 things: 1. You should already have a stalker out and more on the way. 2. I always open phoenix instead of oracle. If he goes for the oracle I already have the blind counter and I am already 1 phoenix ahead in the inevitable phoenix vs. phoenix war. If I open oracle and he opens phoenix I am kinda screwed. If he opens voidray I am already 1 step/phoenix ahead. There really is no reason to go oracle first. I mean, sure, you can hope that your opponent is some bronze dude who forgot that oracles exists but that is not something I count on. The phoenix is not the vikings because the phoenix is your core unit when both players open stargate. A phoenix in PvP is way more useful than a viking is in TvT and you would end up building phoenix anyway. The only thing that screws the phoenix first over is a blink all-in. You just have to scout for that and chrono voidrays out instead. Actually the phoenix is 100% identical to the viking in TvT. Vikings are the most important unit in TvT if both players open banshee. The one who has air control wins the ground war. Just like it is with phoenixes, the one who has more phoenixes has air control and will eventually be able to transition. If your opponent has no phoenixes and you have some, suddenly you can throw in void rays and the game will end. But I agree, there really is no reason to go Oracle first, hence I always open phoenix. Robo builds seem to be completely dead atm. Blink is thrown in to kill stargate builds. So the only time you go robo is if you mindgame your opponent into thinking you're going stargate so he goes blink.
I agree with phoenix first. And I agree that robo is dead. I never lose to robo openings anymore. That being said, you do not want to rush to stargate too fast (like one gate -> stargate) because you will die to even simple 5 stalkers push, or blink all-in. Even stargate after 3 gates is vulnerable to blink allin, you have to be spot on with your micro and not lose your MsC ever. I usually open 3 stalker -> stargate - > 2 more stalkers - > pressure with MsC -> 3rd gate or nexus. Kills greedy players, DT openings (make oracle asap in this case), and plays into stargate play which seems inevitable ATM.
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On February 13 2013 22:43 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 18:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 13 2013 13:53 Nezgar wrote:On February 13 2013 00:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 13 2013 00:38 wajd wrote: in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins? I think what happens then is you stop making oracles and make phoenixes instead. And if he doesn't make phoenixes you win the game. I think is how it works. But yeah, it's kinda like a cloak banshee TvT vs cloak banshee. There's no rhyme or reason to it, the one who does more damage and takes less wins. And it's smart to make a defensive viking once you figure out what's going on. In this case, the phoenixes are your vikings. It comes down to 2 things: 1. You should already have a stalker out and more on the way. 2. I always open phoenix instead of oracle. If he goes for the oracle I already have the blind counter and I am already 1 phoenix ahead in the inevitable phoenix vs. phoenix war. If I open oracle and he opens phoenix I am kinda screwed. If he opens voidray I am already 1 step/phoenix ahead. There really is no reason to go oracle first. I mean, sure, you can hope that your opponent is some bronze dude who forgot that oracles exists but that is not something I count on. The phoenix is not the vikings because the phoenix is your core unit when both players open stargate. A phoenix in PvP is way more useful than a viking is in TvT and you would end up building phoenix anyway. The only thing that screws the phoenix first over is a blink all-in. You just have to scout for that and chrono voidrays out instead. Actually the phoenix is 100% identical to the viking in TvT. Vikings are the most important unit in TvT if both players open banshee. The one who has air control wins the ground war. Just like it is with phoenixes, the one who has more phoenixes has air control and will eventually be able to transition. If your opponent has no phoenixes and you have some, suddenly you can throw in void rays and the game will end. But I agree, there really is no reason to go Oracle first, hence I always open phoenix. Robo builds seem to be completely dead atm. Blink is thrown in to kill stargate builds. So the only time you go robo is if you mindgame your opponent into thinking you're going stargate so he goes blink. I agree with phoenix first. And I agree that robo is dead. I never lose to robo openings anymore. That being said, you do not want to rush to stargate too fast (like one gate -> stargate) because you will die to even simple 5 stalkers push, or blink all-in. Even stargate after 3 gates is vulnerable to blink allin, you have to be spot on with your micro and not lose your MsC ever. I usually open 3 stalker -> stargate - > 2 more stalkers - > pressure with MsC -> 3rd gate or nexus. Kills greedy players, DT openings (make oracle asap in this case), and plays into stargate play which seems inevitable ATM.
1gate stargate is pushing it, but completely doable if executed properly, now that pylon can't power highground anymore (Of course I'm expecting that you add on 2 more gateways right after the stargate). You will also have a huge advantage if your opponent is going stargate and plays it more safe. If you scout with your first 2 phonixes instead of waiting for 4-5, you should be able to spot if he's planning an allin or not (most dangerous being blink allin with mothership core), and if you switch to voids right away, you should be able to hold it with good micro.
Then again, there is never one best way of playing this game. 3 stalker opening might be just as viable.
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Austria24413 Posts
Gonna try 5 stalker pressure -> expand build except with stargate followup instead of robo, skipping the sentry initially. Cause that's what Beta is for, doing crazy shit and testing new stuff.
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Hey guys, Im having some trouble with the combination of Thor, Hellbat and Ghost. I rly don't know whats the counter for this. I controlled the early game and he didn't cause damage in my economy, but i lost the game in one battle ):
My army composition was imm, archons and some zealots.
replay: http://drop.sc/304454
ty :D
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On February 14 2013 04:05 cRsJoaoccf wrote:Hey guys, Im having some trouble with the combination of Thor, Hellbat and Ghost. I rly don't know whats the counter for this. I controlled the early game and he didn't cause damage in my economy, but i lost the game in one battle ): My army composition was imm, archons and some zealots. replay: http://drop.sc/304454ty :D
Well Immos and archons are not very good against ghosts ^^
You need air. Lotsa air. And split or positionning.
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Guys, I really need your help again. Even thought I am a high Masters player and more and more meet GM player on ladder, I feel speechless most of the time in PvZ when it gets to a longer game.. especially on Antiga Shipyard I am getting into real problems. The only chance is to catch the zerg player in a horrible position. Which seems impossible most of the time.
My opening didn't do as much damage to him as I expected, but it was a ok I guess.
I dont know what went really that wrong, that made him able to push me back even thought I took good fights. On top he was always ahead in super far ahead on supply. I did my best scouting for bases and killing them in time of course, I also expended as good as I could.
But still in the end, he was just able to morph a trasilion Brutlords and made the ending look like a recent WoL PvZ.
What could I have done better? Even thought it was a great PvZ I am still disappointed how it ended up.
I really have no Idea how I should have switched to airtoss or break out.
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I think you can 1 gate MSC FE and be safe in PvP. I've done it a few times and I almost held a 4 gate with it. If I did my build a bit better, I hold it no problem. I've also been having success going Void Ray, Colossus, Stalker, Archon in lategame, as opposed to pure skytoss. Maybe that unit comp is standard. IDK, but I've been having a bit of fun today. I've never enjoyed PvP this much.
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A lot of people say Skytoss is the way to go against a Terran mech composition - but I tend to have quite a bit of trouble getting to that stage before hitting the required critical mass, how are people holding attacks when you are at that weak transition point? Also, what air composition (as well as ratio) is ideal? Void rays + carriers or tempests? Of course, I know you'll still need high templar support etc. underneath.
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Galix, your endgame unit composition should be primarily void rays with a few colossus and a few high templar, and however many gateway units you need to harass with or to defend zerg's harass. Eventually, tempests and carriers can be good too. The buildings you want for that composition are 3 stargates, 1 robo fac, 1 robo bay, 1 fleet beacon, 1 templar archives, and 2 cores. Any tech you get that isn't one of those buildings is just window dressing. So in your game, the DTs were fine, but then after that, look at all the extra tech you got that you didn't need, and didn't help you towards your endgame composition:
Blink 2nd forge and the upgrades you got from it 2nd Robo Charge
Get rid of all of that. Whenever you think you want to tech, get a stargate. That's your tech. Then gradually add in the void rays to your gateway units. They're really good against things like roaches and corruptors, so don't avoid them.
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On February 17 2013 19:27 FlyingBeer wrote: Galix, your endgame unit composition should be primarily void rays with a few colossus and a few high templar, and however many gateway units you need to harass with or to defend zerg's harass. Eventually, tempests and carriers can be good too. The buildings you want for that composition are 3 stargates, 1 robo fac, 1 robo bay, 1 fleet beacon, 1 templar archives, and 2 cores. Any tech you get that isn't one of those buildings is just window dressing. So in your game, the DTs were fine, but then after that, look at all the extra tech you got that you didn't need, and didn't help you towards your endgame composition:
Blink 2nd forge and the upgrades you got from it 2nd Robo Charge
Get rid of all of that. Whenever you think you want to tech, get a stargate. That's your tech. Then gradually add in the void rays to your gateway units. They're really good against things like roaches and corruptors, so don't avoid them.
maybe you are right, I stuck in WoL hard with my colossi and stalker. Even thought they are useless in hots lategame.
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Hi, Im master in WoL and currently plat in HoTS and IM just wondering....What the heck do I do vs mass swarm hosts? :S
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 17 2013 23:00 Dumbledore wrote:Hi, Im master in WoL and currently plat in HoTS and IM just wondering....What the heck do I do vs mass swarm hosts? :S
Lol, I was about to ask the same question. I wanna know how to deal with a standard roach/ling into swarm hosts. Because every robo unit seems to just suck against them completely and HT/archons won't help against roaches so zerg can just switch around whenever they want.
Assuming I do a super safe 4 gate robo expand
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On February 17 2013 23:00 Dumbledore wrote:Hi, Im master in WoL and currently plat in HoTS and IM just wondering....What the heck do I do vs mass swarm hosts? :S
Mass colossi. 6 is enough (meaning, do not go overboard and stop at 6 if there are a LOT of SH). You want some sentries too to prevent the hosts from hitting you. You have to be very careful of the transition (well, PvZ HotS is like that all game long) to either corruptors or vipers. So either you roll over the Z who do not switch fast enough or you have te retreat and make some HTs.
Having a bazillion cannons at your closest expo buys you time. Warp prism harass buys you more time and can destroy key tech. Frankly, mass SH is not the biggest problem in PvZ.
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Austria24413 Posts
>_> It isn't by the time you have 6 colossi out, lol. Before that happens any decent zerg willlllllllll notice you're going mass colossi and just spam corruptors which will also make any air transitions hard as hell.
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On February 18 2013 00:24 DarkLordOlli wrote: >_> It isn't by the time you have 6 colossi out, lol. Before that happens any decent zerg willlllllllll notice you're going mass colossi and just spam corruptors which will also make any air transitions hard as hell.
6 was a max, dude. Of course with two colossi you'll attempt to break out of the contain. But if the Z reaaaalllyyy insists on mass SH, you'll need more than two.
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Didn't play for a few days, started again today. played 4 PvTs in a row, lost 3 to some weird new super early marine combat shield timing when opening oracle into expand so I just switched back to 1gate expo and ended up winning against it the next couple times I played against it. Silly Terrans. I just throw down a second gas then don't mine from it or do 2 probes in each gas and they assume oracles. I checked the replay and the one dude had turrets at every mineral line against 1gate expo into robo. I would have held it the one game but I didn't get a mothership core until my second oracle was building. That nexus cannon would have help it no problem.
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Is there a resource with basic builds against each race in HotS? I'm low diamond in WoL but getting my ass handed to me in HotS because I don't really know what I'm doing, and I spend so much time thinking about what to do that my macro falls apart.
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What's the best way to respond to two base swarm hosts? Is it basically necessary to go colossi on 2 base?
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So I've been primarily a Zerg throughout all of WoL, and HotS up until now. But with Unranked play I'd like to learn all three races. So I've decide to do an experiment until the end of Beta. I'm in the middle of 1 week of Terran, and this will be followed by 1 week of Protoss.
I know the concept of units and how various compositions work, so I won't have a problem with late game. But I'm not very familiar with their early game or their mindset when it comes to macro. So in preparation for Protoss week, I have just a couple questions.
1) I'd like to first learn some openers which are not all-in. If I had to choose from two or three opening builds, which would you suggest are most worth learning? (and for which matchups would they work).
2) I mostly have a "Zerg Mentality" with early scouting and responses. Normally as a Zerg if I see a Protoss expand I know I can be relatively safe to drone for a bit because the early aggression will be weak. What is the appropriate Protoss response if they see Protoss or Terran player do a quick expand? Do you want to try to outmacro them? Or do you punish greedy play with a timing push? I don't really know how different the Protoss dynamic is.
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Anyone finding PvT midgame really hard now against the super medivacs? The mid game was always the hardest part of PvT for me, (and most protosses), but i don't really understand what is so different (against bio obviously), and why i am finding it so much harder. Every double medivac drop seems to do massive massive damage. Maybe it is the new maps that tend to be more open.
On that note, really loving the new era of maps, creating much better games especially PvZ imho.
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Austria24413 Posts
Gonna answer 2), not really familiar with HotS builds yet. Protoss can do both. Chronoboost is a mechanic that allows you to focus on very specific things and helps you get an advantage that way. For example, if you want your advantage in a game to be upgrades, chronoboosting forges will very likely give you upgrade advantages but it will take away from something else that could have been ready sooner if chrono'd. Economy is the same. You can focus very heavily on chronoing probes and you'll catch up in worker count rather quickly (against terran or protoss). In PvP it used to be veeeeery punishable to do an early expand. However with the new mothership core I've heard people say that you can 1gate expand and be safe with good unit control. Against terran you're free to do whatever, really. If you do a super safe and standard gateway, cyber core expand after stalker you won't really be behind vs a terran that goes 1rax FE. You can cut the cyber core and gas to get a nexus down faster but that's not always safe. On the other hand, you can always get aggressive with a timing after your expansion finishes. For example, there's very quick 4gate after expand builds that can catch your opponent completely off guard if they don't see any indicators for it.
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On February 18 2013 18:50 Surili wrote: Anyone finding PvT midgame really hard now against the super medivacs? The mid game was always the hardest part of PvT for me, (and most protosses), but i don't really understand what is so different (against bio obviously), and why i am finding it so much harder. Every double medivac drop seems to do massive massive damage. Maybe it is the new maps that tend to be more open.
On that note, really loving the new era of maps, creating much better games especially PvZ imho.
Probably because if T opens gas, your entire BO is much less economical, and if they opt to play standard behind it, you're simply behind. I can't really say without seeing your replays, but in my experience I just feel behind due to over reacting to gas due to the endless possibilities T has currently.
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Does anyone else use mass phoenix/+1 zealot against those zergs who go 3 base fast spire and use the third base only for gas so they can rush for 9-10 minute mutas? As soon as I scout spire (which I will with the 4 phoenix opening) I go for a second stargate, fleet beacon (rather than a third stargate since range feels more useful than a few extra phoenixes in this case since all you have to do is basically deal with the first set of mutas) and then enough gateways so I have about 7 in total so I can dump all my extra minerals into zealots. This seems very potent against those zergs who go mass muta/speedling because the lings won't have upgrades other than speed because the zerg banked all their gas for mutas so +1 zealots (I usually have around 20 or so when I push out along with about 10-12 phoenixes if I kept my 4 opening phoenixes alive. I haven't perfected this yet) absolutely destroy the lings and you use the phoenixes to protect the zealots from mutas. And if they try and trick you and switch into mass roach after only a few mutas you just switch to a few voidrays to deal with roaches and kill queens with your phoenixes quite easily since spores won't be able to handle that many phoenixes.
This has worked against diamond zergs in beta and I have no idea how it would work higher up on ladder but for the very common mass muta build at the platinum/diamond level it works quite well (especially against zergs who try to use minimal defense when rushing to mutas). I haven't polished it at all yet as I have only played a few games with it but it seems to have potential. I imagine with practice I could squeeze out more zealots or phoenixes. I haven't even looked at expanding behind it yet but I do think it is possible since I could just skip a few zealots and expand behind the pressure. It might not sound all that great but it has put me into a positive win percentage in PvZ finally. It definitely needs polishing though.
Edit: and yeah, playing against gas-first Terran is a pain. It is so hard to tell what they are doing and if you guess wrong you lose. I ended up just going back to 1gate expand for now as many of them seem to be going kinda back to 1rax expand or if they try mech timings they hit late enough that I will have enough out to defend. I haven't faced early mines yet so that could be pretty tough to hold.
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Austria24413 Posts
Can somebody please give me a build that works vs hydra/swarm host midgame? I know it's coming every time but it's so goddamn cost effective and a good zerg should never even have their swarm hosts detected.
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On February 20 2013 04:23 Ben... wrote: Does anyone else use mass phoenix/+1 zealot against those zergs who go 3 base fast spire and use the third base only for gas so they can rush for 9-10 minute mutas? As soon as I scout spire (which I will with the 4 phoenix opening) I go for a second stargate, fleet beacon (rather than a third stargate since range feels more useful than a few extra phoenixes in this case since all you have to do is basically deal with the first set of mutas) and then enough gateways so I have about 7 in total so I can dump all my extra minerals into zealots. This seems very potent against those zergs who go mass muta/speedling because the lings won't have upgrades other than speed because the zerg banked all their gas for mutas so +1 zealots (I usually have around 20 or so when I push out along with about 10-12 phoenixes if I kept my 4 opening phoenixes alive. I haven't perfected this yet) absolutely destroy the lings and you use the phoenixes to protect the zealots from mutas. And if they try and trick you and switch into mass roach after only a few mutas you just switch to a few voidrays to deal with roaches and kill queens with your phoenixes quite easily since spores won't be able to handle that many phoenixes.
This has worked against diamond zergs in beta and I have no idea how it would work higher up on ladder but for the very common mass muta build at the platinum/diamond level it works quite well (especially against zergs who try to use minimal defense when rushing to mutas). I haven't polished it at all yet as I have only played a few games with it but it seems to have potential. I imagine with practice I could squeeze out more zealots or phoenixes. I haven't even looked at expanding behind it yet but I do think it is possible since I could just skip a few zealots and expand behind the pressure. It might not sound all that great but it has put me into a positive win percentage in PvZ finally. It definitely needs polishing though.
Edit: and yeah, playing against gas-first Terran is a pain. It is so hard to tell what they are doing and if you guess wrong you lose. I ended up just going back to 1gate expand for now as many of them seem to be going kinda back to 1rax expand or if they try mech timings they hit late enough that I will have enough out to defend. I haven't faced early mines yet so that could be pretty tough to hold.
Most of the Zerg I face scout stargate and switch to hydras, usually before putting down their spire. Hydra cost gas so it's easy for them to switch and usually I die to mass hydras. But I'll try your build for the stubborn ones
For T one-gate expand is freaking risky and yes it's hard to know what they plan. What's funny is in the T help thread they freak out about our one-base allins and that they have a hard time figuring out between them ^^
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On February 09 2013 00:02 DanieltheSeraph wrote: what protoss comp beats hellbat/viking/tank? terran mech give me a lot of trouble in PvT. If I build immortals, they just shoot at the hellbats in front. Zealots die instantly to hellbats. I tried going pure oracle/ void ray but it only slightly lengthens the game to make way for thors which annihilate all protoss air
haven't really gotten an answer to this...
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On February 20 2013 19:00 DanieltheSeraph wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 00:02 DanieltheSeraph wrote: what protoss comp beats hellbat/viking/tank? terran mech give me a lot of trouble in PvT. If I build immortals, they just shoot at the hellbats in front. Zealots die instantly to hellbats. I tried going pure oracle/ void ray but it only slightly lengthens the game to make way for thors which annihilate all protoss air haven't really gotten an answer to this...
I haven't had a lot of experience against this, but in other threads people suggest tempest, positionning and slowly chipping away at their army. I agree it's very powerful ATM. Usually I die to this
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Hello guys. I am really bad at playing protoss but I am really trying to improve. There is one thing that I struggle a lot with. When I go fast expo. Usually Gate, 1gas, core - Nexus. Without any problem so far.
It is the 2 base (or 3 base for zerg) timing pushes that break me. I have checked my macro and I am doing pretty well. The problem is that I react too slow. I think scouting is my problem. I just can not seem to understand when the enemy will attack me!
For zerg. I really like to open with phoenix. Usually I win if he does not attack me. But if he does. It usually happens from his 3 base. He just barge towards my natural and bust through with Hydras and Roaches speedlings etc.
For Terran. I die to 2 base pushes. Marauders, Marines + MVacs. And very often Hellbat+Marauders. I like to get storm early. But if I don't. I usually play bad because I am not comfortable with Colossus. T_T (I should really improve here)
How do I see when the push is coming from my scouting? For Zerg and Terran. (Obviously I want to be able to react in time) For Zerg I need obs at his ramps? For Terran I need obs too?
Is it something wrong with my infrastructure to make me unable to react?
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On February 20 2013 23:45 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 19:00 DanieltheSeraph wrote:On February 09 2013 00:02 DanieltheSeraph wrote: what protoss comp beats hellbat/viking/tank? terran mech give me a lot of trouble in PvT. If I build immortals, they just shoot at the hellbats in front. Zealots die instantly to hellbats. I tried going pure oracle/ void ray but it only slightly lengthens the game to make way for thors which annihilate all protoss air haven't really gotten an answer to this... I haven't had a lot of experience against this, but in other threads people suggest tempest, positionning and slowly chipping away at their army. I agree it's very powerful ATM. Usually I die to this
skytoss seems to be the answer to everything right now.
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On February 21 2013 01:52 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 23:45 ant-1 wrote:On February 20 2013 19:00 DanieltheSeraph wrote:On February 09 2013 00:02 DanieltheSeraph wrote: what protoss comp beats hellbat/viking/tank? terran mech give me a lot of trouble in PvT. If I build immortals, they just shoot at the hellbats in front. Zealots die instantly to hellbats. I tried going pure oracle/ void ray but it only slightly lengthens the game to make way for thors which annihilate all protoss air haven't really gotten an answer to this... I haven't had a lot of experience against this, but in other threads people suggest tempest, positionning and slowly chipping away at their army. I agree it's very powerful ATM. Usually I die to this skytoss seems to be the answer to everything right now.
Sadly feels like the only answer to anything as well.
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On February 21 2013 00:47 llIH wrote: Hello guys. I am really bad at playing protoss but I am really trying to improve. There is one thing that I struggle a lot with. When I go fast expo. Usually Gate, 1gas, core - Nexus. Without any problem so far.
It is the 2 base (or 3 base for zerg) timing pushes that break me. I have checked my macro and I am doing pretty well. The problem is that I react too slow. I think scouting is my problem. I just can not seem to understand when the enemy will attack me!
For zerg. I really like to open with phoenix. Usually I win if he does not attack me. But if he does. It usually happens from his 3 base. He just barge towards my natural and bust through with Hydras and Roaches speedlings etc.
For Terran. I die to 2 base pushes. Marauders, Marines + MVacs. And very often Hellbat+Marauders. I like to get storm early. But if I don't. I usually play bad because I am not comfortable with Colossus. T_T (I should really improve here)
How do I see when the push is coming from my scouting? For Zerg and Terran. (Obviously I want to be able to react in time) For Zerg I need obs at his ramps? For Terran I need obs too?
Is it something wrong with my infrastructure to make me unable to react?
If you're going to open pheonix, scouting him early and often is the key. Probes early to see what his production is and how many gases he's getting is good. Poke with a zealot/stalker early to get a sense, but be careful. Use your pheonix not just to lift and kill, but also scout. If you see an all-in coming, get cannons down, make sure you have a couple of sentries, and zealots for the zerglings. Lift up the roaches and you should be able to hold. Just know that if he's hitting you that early and you hold his economy is going to be pretty poor. If you can afford it, get 1-2 oracles. If you have enough apm, send those across quickly and harass. Chances are he will not have static defence to kill them, and you will destroy the small economy he has.
2 base pushes from terran can be annoying. Once again, scouting no 3rd orbital is huge. The key to this is getting solid force fields, and letting your aoe, be it storm or collusus, melt him. If you hold this look to counter if he's been re-enforcing, or possibly to expand if you don't think you can punish him in time. A huge positive to getting used to collusus is that you can get a 1-2 obs already into your build, without going out of your way. Also, if you dont like them just get 1-2 collusus and show them, then switch to ht. Terrans will over-produce on vikings then.
Hope this helps.
edit: Also, mothership core is OP. Make sure to use the correct ability when needed as well. (Use time against a terran ball, but the cannon against zerg if they're breaking into expansion) Normally this is just a judgement call.
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Has anyone tried 4-5 oracles + charge zealots + archons (via DT) all in vs T off 2 bases & 8 gates Not sure if this only works at my level or actually strong but yea, thoughts? Reason I found some success with this build is that terrans tend to think no more oracles shall be made after they torret up or somehow kill the first Oracle.
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On February 21 2013 05:16 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 00:47 llIH wrote: Hello guys. I am really bad at playing protoss but I am really trying to improve. There is one thing that I struggle a lot with. When I go fast expo. Usually Gate, 1gas, core - Nexus. Without any problem so far.
It is the 2 base (or 3 base for zerg) timing pushes that break me. I have checked my macro and I am doing pretty well. The problem is that I react too slow. I think scouting is my problem. I just can not seem to understand when the enemy will attack me!
For zerg. I really like to open with phoenix. Usually I win if he does not attack me. But if he does. It usually happens from his 3 base. He just barge towards my natural and bust through with Hydras and Roaches speedlings etc.
For Terran. I die to 2 base pushes. Marauders, Marines + MVacs. And very often Hellbat+Marauders. I like to get storm early. But if I don't. I usually play bad because I am not comfortable with Colossus. T_T (I should really improve here)
How do I see when the push is coming from my scouting? For Zerg and Terran. (Obviously I want to be able to react in time) For Zerg I need obs at his ramps? For Terran I need obs too?
Is it something wrong with my infrastructure to make me unable to react? If you're going to open pheonix, scouting him early and often is the key. Probes early to see what his production is and how many gases he's getting is good. Poke with a zealot/stalker early to get a sense, but be careful. Use your pheonix not just to lift and kill, but also scout. If you see an all-in coming, get cannons down, make sure you have a couple of sentries, and zealots for the zerglings. Lift up the roaches and you should be able to hold. Just know that if he's hitting you that early and you hold his economy is going to be pretty poor. If you can afford it, get 1-2 oracles. If you have enough apm, send those across quickly and harass. Chances are he will not have static defence to kill them, and you will destroy the small economy he has. 2 base pushes from terran can be annoying. Once again, scouting no 3rd orbital is huge. The key to this is getting solid force fields, and letting your aoe, be it storm or collusus, melt him. If you hold this look to counter if he's been re-enforcing, or possibly to expand if you don't think you can punish him in time. A huge positive to getting used to collusus is that you can get a 1-2 obs already into your build, without going out of your way. Also, if you dont like them just get 1-2 collusus and show them, then switch to ht. Terrans will over-produce on vikings then. Hope this helps. edit: Also, mothership core is OP. Make sure to use the correct ability when needed as well. (Use time against a terran ball, but the cannon against zerg if they're breaking into expansion) Normally this is just a judgement call.
Hey! This helped a lot actually. Thank you!
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Anyone tried using Stalker oracle vs zerg?
I used it one game and it seemed cool because stalker deal kinda well with roaches and oracles massacre speedlings. also adding in some voidrays is basically always a good idea unless you play vs marines or pure hydra/muta.
What I hate is that you still can't really defend vs any decent 2 base push without collossus or Storm :-(
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I've been recently playing off-and-on again and I seem to really be struggling against Zerg (good news is, I'm finally using Nexus-First against Terran in Ladder!). The problem is that nearly every game the Zerg goes straight for Mutalisks, which would not be a problem if they didn't know how to Macro like a boss on the back of it. I usually open Stargate anyways, but they simply produce more Mutas ALONGSIDE Lings and Roaches to the point that I can't exactly maintain both microing Phoenixes and my army fast enough to deal with the repercussions by both Zerg forces. Either I lose my Phoenix, my economy, or my army. Then I lose another one of the three soon after.
Any suggestions in dealing with this Muta/Ling/Roach 3-Base by 14:00? I'm easily scouting it on time and I have a good 6-7 Phoenix up in time to deter the Mutas, but the problem is simply being able to mitigate damage that the Mutas deal to my economy while also squashing the Ling/Roach tearing apart my FFE wall with my army barely able to stop them. Even if I successfully save that, I still have the problem of the remax which simply devastates everything.
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On February 18 2013 16:05 fplsmurf1 wrote: What's the best way to respond to two base swarm hosts? Is it basically necessary to go colossi on 2 base?
I just played a game against a zerg doing 2 base swarm host. I opened FFE Stargate into robo and with my first phoenix I scouted swarm host. Through down another robo and rolled him over with collosus and warp prism play. Since his whole army will be at your front warp prism is really strong.
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Took a break for awhile, and aside from rust in defending drops PvT (Widow Mines and Speed are insane!), and just overall dumb play PvZ, I can't for the life of me figure out PvP.
What's a safe opener to use, where it won't leave you drastically far behind? I almost always open Stargate, but if they just Stargate/Expo, they'll be able to defend while having an economic advantage. Or if I see 2 Gases, they could just DT. Or if I see earlier gases again, they'll just go for a greedier Stargate play. What's the proper response if you fall behind on Phoenix early? idk this MU has me scratching my head like crazy. I have no sense of flow when I play it.
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I've had some success in Protoss vs Protoss lately against an opponent who goes for stargate and proceeds to make phoenix to harass, void rays for the stalkers, and then eventually tempest. I get a dark shrine and try to use DT's to harass, and I create archons. It seems to me like void rays are not very efficient versus archons, neither are tempests, and phoenix cannot lift them up. As long as I make sure my archons are in front, it seems like a archon/stalker/high templar army could be superior to a pheonix, tempest, void ray composition.
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Anyone figured, how to deal with 2base Hellbat/Thor + few Vikings + Raven + SCV's push? It hits around 14 minute mark (can hit earlier if he scouts Tempest or Voidray), it's like 160+ supply and it hits really, really hard...
edit: I've experienced even 0/2 upgrades from Terran, in which case, Hellbats/Thors just don't die. Everything is repaired, or healed (few medivacs might be left from drops).
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On February 24 2013 06:15 Everlong wrote: Anyone figured, how to deal with 2base Hellbat/Thor + few Vikings + Raven + SCV's push? It hits around 14 minute mark (can hit earlier if he scouts Tempest or Voidray), it's like 160+ supply and it hits really, really hard...
edit: I've experienced even 0/2 upgrades from Terran, in which case, Hellbats/Thors just don't die. Everything is repaired, or healed (few medivacs might be left from drops).
Won't an immortal/high templar composition work against this?
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On February 24 2013 09:28 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:15 Everlong wrote: Anyone figured, how to deal with 2base Hellbat/Thor + few Vikings + Raven + SCV's push? It hits around 14 minute mark (can hit earlier if he scouts Tempest or Voidray), it's like 160+ supply and it hits really, really hard...
edit: I've experienced even 0/2 upgrades from Terran, in which case, Hellbats/Thors just don't die. Everything is repaired, or healed (few medivacs might be left from drops). Won't an immortal/high templar composition work against this?
I think I know what push he's talking about, and HT just aren't as great as they used to be vs that. Thors don't have energy bars anymore and hellbats can soak storms reasonably well. I think the key is to get a 3rd base up as fast as possible when u scout that so that you can overwhelm with immortal+archon+blink stalker. if you have 2-3 robotics pumping out immortals you should have enough to be killing his thors before they can get repaired. Some colossus might not be a bad idea either if you can hide them and he's not making too many vikings blind. also make sure when you engage you try to set up a flank.
upgrades aren't going to be as important but some attack ups later on when you can afford it might be useful.
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What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts?
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On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote: What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts?
try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down.
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On February 24 2013 12:30 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote: What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts? try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down.
I'll have to try that out. I haven't been comfortable enough with moving out early to put pressure on, but that sounds like a good idea if I get comfortable with it.
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On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote: What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts?
3gate-stargate
There are several builds that get you there. The primary difference is how many gateways and gateway units you pressure with before getting the stargate. 3gate-blink all-ins are quite popular, but those can struggle against DTs. Pros do them because DTs don't seem to be very common at the GM level. Watch a few pro replays to find one that you like. TriBones, Kyo, and hellokitty have all been regularly posting replay packs on the forums, so steal their builds or one of their opponents' builds from those after you find one that you like. I'm disappointed because 2gate FE and DTs seem to have slowly disappeared ever since the oracle envision buff. I also really feel for the lower-level players. They really don't have the APM to handle phoenix because they're so micro-intensive, so they're all gonna be stuck doing pure gateway pushes.
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So for anyone curious or anyone who simply wants to learn from my mistakes/experience - here goes:
I have played two notable PvP's, one versus a turtle Protoss who went for air-toss, and another versus a turtle Protoss who went for mass void ray. I have been trying to avoid using stargate tech to counter stargate tech (although I will if it is deemed necessary) and I have not had much success. The tempest/carrier/mothership player was content to sit back, expand, make a lot of cannons and wait, and then if you attacked (both would be maxed) your ground army wouldn't be able to even attack his army all at once. After playing this game I noticed that archons were pretty good versus tempest, but that you need to draw a line (probably at the third base) at which point you have to be aggressive, air-toss eventually trumps everything else.
Then I played a game versus a turtle-toss who massed void rays. I went for a dt opening and used them to make archons, stalkers, and zealots. Ultimately archons didn't fare that well versus the void rays, archons take too long to rip through the ground forces in order to make their way to the void rays.
A few things I've noticed though that I will make use of as I play more PvP games:- Air toss doesn't seem to have a lot of good harassing options, they don't want to move out across the map and prefer to turtle because wide-open engagements aren't their forte.
- I didn't get shield upgrades, and considering that void rays attack extremely quick and an archons health is entirely shields, 3 shield upgrades could have made a huge difference, although it still wouldn't seem like they're the appropriate response.
- The most likely unit to add and have success with would be the high templar. Void rays tend to stack and they don't have a tremendous amount of health, I don't think they could afford to simply sit in psi storm. More than that though, psi storm drops would probably be the best thing to do because air-toss doesn't have a lot of harassment options outside of oracles which are shut down with a few cannons and/or blink stalkers.
EDIT: I just confirmed in unit tester that shield upgrades make a massive, massive difference in archons versus void rays. Realistically, I think you can probably expect an upgrade advantage as the ground player, but the most realistic expectation you can hope for is 3 shield upgrades to 1 or 2 air weapon upgrades.
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What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff.
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I have such a hard time defending gas openers against Terran. No gas is practically auto win because of Oracles/VRs off of one base. However, when the Terran goes a gas, I usually do an MC expand (1 Gate, 28-30~ Nexus, 3 Gates, Robo at 6 minutes).
I'll have a Zealot/Stalker/Pylon blocking the ramp to ideally prevent Hellions from running by, while 2 Stalkers in my base go cover cliffs for possible Reapers. If it's Reapers, I'll just play standard from then on. If it's Widow Mines, I haven't won a game against Speedvac/Midow Mine drops. I don't know how to split my Stalkers. It's like.. 4 Stalkers to kill ONE mine before it burrows, and if even 1 Stalker waits a shot on a Medivac, you'll have to pull Probes and wait for your Obs. And then, if he drops multiples, you'll have to run away regardless of that.
I just have such a hard time splitting my units to defend both bases. It's the same thing in the Natural. MShip core with charge on the Nexus, but if the shot wastes on the Medivac, and/or there are multiple mines, then it's move your probes or lose a ton. And of course, I'm not really able to move then that quickly, especially if I'm dealing with a drop in one base, the other one will mostly be left without my attention.
And I guess, it's really frustrating, because with the speed, it's rather difficult to see them on the minimap, especially since I have no map presence until I get a second or even third Observer. And then, after defending the drop, I don't have a clue how to transition into a game. Do I do double Forge/Robo? Single Forge/Twilight? When can I scout what to do? When do I get a Sentry? Does anyone have any replays of standard defense against this? Or even one where the game didn't go to well, but you still clawed through?
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On February 25 2013 08:28 Daimai wrote: What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff.
If they open gas you really need to go 1g or 2g robo expand to be safe. From there you can just play a WoL-ish midgame with colossus, blink stalkers, chargeots, HT/archons. Double forge is still great vs bio but vs mech you only really need the attack upgrades (and not as urgently).
To deal with the new medivacs I've been keeping my mothership core in between my bases so I can overcharge it if I get dropped. A few cannons per mineral line is also a good idea, you can add those on when you're taking your third or earlier if they are trying widow mine drops. I like to get blink first since the drops are so common nowadays and it helps me to protect my colossus from vikings as well. As long as you keep your upgrades churning/ proxy a pylon by their third so you can check on the timing/counter harass it/ don't lose too much to drops then you should be in good shape to take a 4th and start your tech switch to storm (or colossus if you went storm first).
vs widow mine drop into bio timing: http://drop.sc/306999
vs proxy fact and bio midgame. Besides getting my army nuked (I had my music on too loud -_-) I think I played this one pretty well. http://drop.sc/306942
good opening/drop defense on my part. Also a good example of why you should not try to attack a terran who has been on 2 base for too long (even with recall available the MSC can get 1 shot easily when he has 2port vikings): http://drop.sc/307003
As for dealing with mech, it really depends on what composition he's going for since I've seen terrans experimenting with a bunch of different timings and styles. If it's something like 3 base tank/hellbat/viking with a few mines then I'd recommend a fast third, bunch of immortals, archons, blink stalkers, chargelots, and +attack ups. You can eventually grab some phoenix as well (2sg when your fourth goes down) since his anti-air won't be great and they are great at lifting tanks and hellbats (remember that hellbats are light units!). Engagements will obviously be the most important factor so you really need to try hard to get a good flank if you don't have phoenix yet.
Replay vs tank/hellbat/raven push: http://drop.sc/306997 (I tried getting voids at the end but couldn't really afford it so IMO it would have been better to crank out some phoenix since he had a very low thor count)
DTs can also be nice to mix in if you notice the terran doesn't have turrets all over the place with hallucinate scouts (you should be sending hallucinated phoenix out every now and then).
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On February 25 2013 06:20 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 12:30 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote: What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts? try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down. I'll have to try that out. I haven't been comfortable enough with moving out early to put pressure on, but that sounds like a good idea if I get comfortable with it.
Just played a bunch of games today and I had a few good PvPs that you might be interested in seeing.
http://drop.sc/307006 -- vs a DT opening. My robo was probably a little later than it should have been considering how shady it was that he had no units at his ramp when i poked up. The reason I went colo tech afterwards is that usually a DT player will do some kind of archon bust on 1 or 2 base (if 1 base I would have given up my expo). He also sniped my robotics and usually you want to go air when the other guy is going robotics, so I figured there was a decent chance he wasn't going to reactively throw down a few stargates after killing my robo tech. However he did so anyway and that's why I wound up cancelling my colo/range and reactively going phoenix instead. Kind of a weird situation but if you think about it, he was being slightly more inifficient in his tech routes than I was since he built TC--> DT --> double stargate when for instance he could have just gone blink after my ability to make immortals is diminished. So his ground army was never big enough for him to do anything threatening while I pumped out phoenix. Also note how I tried to hide the phoenix for as long as possible since I knew he was only making voids (flying by the tower was a mistake)
http://drop.sc/307007 -- in this game I overextended a little bit with my pressure, so he wound up slightly ahead macro-wise. I knew I had an upgrade/colo advantage and planned on hitting a +2 blink timing which should have worked but I decided to take a third instead of adding 3-4 more gates to support my attack. I definitely would have been better off getting those gates so that I could have been maxed in that last fight.
http://drop.sc/307009 -- another game vs a dt opening. this time he stayed on 1 base for a while so I gave up my expo and built some colossus. Instead of pushing all the way across the map I retook my expansion since it's very risky to be out in the open vs chargelot archon. I kind of expected him to do some intense void ray tech switch since he knew about my robo tech, but in turn that wound up limiting his army supply so I was able to hit a timing before he got a critical mass of void rays. Alternatively I would have been ok taking a third and going 3sg phoenix like I did in the other game (just keep in mind that securing a third is tougher on star station).
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On February 25 2013 10:26 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 08:28 Daimai wrote: What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff. If they open gas you really need to go 1g or 2g robo expand to be safe.
I agree - but I got a question, I've really struggled dealing with mass reapers with that opening, what do you do against them? I really feel like you need like a 3gate expand or some kind of a gate/forge expand to be able to deal with a large number of reapers, because getting such an early robo means you have very few gateway units and just a MSC, which isn't enough if the terran controls well from my personal experience.
Edit: Hmm, I guess you could rush your MSC to your opponents base and that would force marines instead of reapers I suppose?
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On February 25 2013 12:31 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 10:26 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 25 2013 08:28 Daimai wrote: What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff. If they open gas you really need to go 1g or 2g robo expand to be safe. I agree - but I got a question, I've really struggled dealing with mass reapers with that opening, what do you do against them? I really feel like you need like a 3gate expand or some kind of a gate/forge expand to be able to deal with a large number of reapers, because getting such an early robo means you have very few gateway units and just a MSC, which isn't enough if the terran controls well from my personal experience. Edit: Hmm, I guess you could rush your MSC to your opponents base and that would force marines instead of reapers I suppose?
the new reapers don't really do that much damage to anything (even probes) so a mothership core, zealot and sentry should be more than enough to hold off reapers until warpgate finishes. If you are really seeing a lot of reapers you can get a second stalker instead of sentry. I always chrono out my first stalker so that it pops in time for the reaper rush on most maps, then get the MSC about 28-30 supply. IMO anything more than two reapers is kind of gimmicky and just a waste of resources.
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On February 25 2013 11:01 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 06:20 ronpaul012 wrote:On February 24 2013 12:30 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote: What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts? try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down. I'll have to try that out. I haven't been comfortable enough with moving out early to put pressure on, but that sounds like a good idea if I get comfortable with it. Just played a bunch of games today and I had a few good PvPs that you might be interested in seeing. http://drop.sc/307006 -- vs a DT opening. My robo was probably a little later than it should have been considering how shady it was that he had no units at his ramp when i poked up. The reason I went colo tech afterwards is that usually a DT player will do some kind of archon bust on 1 or 2 base (if 1 base I would have given up my expo). He also sniped my robotics and usually you want to go air when the other guy is going robotics, so I figured there was a decent chance he wasn't going to reactively throw down a few stargates after killing my robo tech. However he did so anyway and that's why I wound up cancelling my colo/range and reactively going phoenix instead. Kind of a weird situation but if you think about it, he was being slightly more inifficient in his tech routes than I was since he built TC--> DT --> double stargate when for instance he could have just gone blink after my ability to make immortals is diminished. So his ground army was never big enough for him to do anything threatening while I pumped out phoenix. Also note how I tried to hide the phoenix for as long as possible since I knew he was only making voids (flying by the tower was a mistake) http://drop.sc/307007 -- in this game I overextended a little bit with my pressure, so he wound up slightly ahead macro-wise. I knew I had an upgrade/colo advantage and planned on hitting a +2 blink timing which should have worked but I decided to take a third instead of adding 3-4 more gates to support my attack. I definitely would have been better off getting those gates so that I could have been maxed in that last fight. http://drop.sc/307009 -- another game vs a dt opening. this time he stayed on 1 base for a while so I gave up my expo and built some colossus. Instead of pushing all the way across the map I retook my expansion since it's very risky to be out in the open vs chargelot archon. I kind of expected him to do some intense void ray tech switch since he knew about my robo tech, but in turn that wound up limiting his army supply so I was able to hit a timing before he got a critical mass of void rays. Alternatively I would have been ok taking a third and going 3sg phoenix like I did in the other game (just keep in mind that securing a third is tougher on star station).
Currently in class so I'll have to watch it later, however thanks in advance. Also, I agree with your reaper analysis in another post. A lot of terrans seem to be mis-using them against protoss. They're not huge damage dealers, but extremely good scouting units.
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Is there any way to win against good Zergs other than turtle stargate shit? I win every game with that even against GMs or professionals but it is just so damn boring.. Sit on 2 bases, get void rays, sit on 3 bases, get carriers, sit on 4 and max a-move+storm = gg..
But I feel like the thread of swarmhosts makes any ground army that doesn't involve fast colossi terrible, Colossi on the other hand also force some sort of turtle play..
I tried Blinkstalker Sentry Immortal but it just sucks against Swarm Hosts...
Ideas?
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On February 26 2013 03:12 rEalGuapo wrote: Is there any way to win against good Zergs other than turtle stargate shit? I win every game with that even against GMs or professionals but it is just so damn boring.. Sit on 2 bases, get void rays, sit on 3 bases, get carriers, sit on 4 and max a-move+storm = gg..
But I feel like the thread of swarmhosts makes any ground army that doesn't involve fast colossi terrible, Colossi on the other hand also force some sort of turtle play..
I tried Blinkstalker Sentry Immortal but it just sucks against Swarm Hosts...
Ideas?
The many forms of gateway pressure off 1 or 2 bases are still viable, a la Grubby. You also have a lot of phoenix or warp prism harass options while turtling, the Kyo plan. Or you can do a fast 6-7 min third, White-Ra style, but that seems very difficult to pull off. I tried that early on and was horrible with it. The only real change is that immortal/sentry doesn't work anymore and mass phoenix/void ray does. Once a bunch of swarm hosts get in position you need either splash damage and/or air units to respond, but there's a lot you can do to delay them getting to that point.
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Not sure if heart of the swarm questions are being asked in here but shouldn't matter. im asking for a little advice on my engagements and maybe some other areas of my game that i can improve. take it, im pretty good at this game i just want some outside criticism.
the idea of MY build: its a oracle/msc rush. i get the msc out super fast in time to deal with any reapers, oracles either let me harass or in this particular replay, contain. they also allow me to be safe vs any early pressure a terran can throw at me. coupled with nexus cannon theyre super strong defensively in the early game. if it wasn't for having a high templar reserve at each base i probably would have died to each his counter attacks.
in this pvt despite being so far ahead i am rolled in each fight. some of the things i think i should have done: - scouted his fast third cc and placed mine maybe 2-3 minutes earlier than i originally did - should have hit a timing before ghosts when i had an upgrade advantage - i think i need more gateways - i struggle hard vs mass ghosts im not entirely sure how to deal with them
i felt like i was outmacroing him, but losing every engagement. if he doesnt lose everything so cost inefficiently at the end of the game im not sure if the game would have went in my favor. if a terran is going ~20 ghosts, heavy marines should i be abandoning the usual pvt composition? seems like i should have went for a heavy stalker count this game rather than the usual heavy zealot composition what do you think?
any criticism would be lovely! trying to grow as a player.
http://drop.sc/307111
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On February 26 2013 03:12 rEalGuapo wrote: Is there any way to win against good Zergs other than turtle stargate shit? I win every game with that even against GMs or professionals but it is just so damn boring.. Sit on 2 bases, get void rays, sit on 3 bases, get carriers, sit on 4 and max a-move+storm = gg..
But I feel like the thread of swarmhosts makes any ground army that doesn't involve fast colossi terrible, Colossi on the other hand also force some sort of turtle play..
I tried Blinkstalker Sentry Immortal but it just sucks against Swarm Hosts...
Ideas?
I've been experimenting with 1-base gateway pressure again, focused on the idea that Blizzard made the MSC to spice up early game action. For me this takes the form of Gate, Cyber => 2x Zealot and MSC Poke and set up proxy pylon => Go up to 3gate => Expand and tech. The zealot poke will at least be even and can help you scout Zerg's speed timing and base defenses. If the zerg is overreacting, I choose not to warp in more units and just go home and tech for a timing to put pressure on the third (still figuring this out, right now I'm favoring phoenix play into robo). If the zerg doesn't make spines, you can do a lot of damage with zealot/sentry and recall out when he commits heavily to defense.
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Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote: Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
I'm far from as good as a lot of the posters here, so I'm hoping some of the others offer advice, but I found that a really solid counter to this style of play is warp prism. Assuming you can get one out on the map, his army is not very mobile. Assuming he doesn't see it coming you may be able to do some damage, and depending on if he's maxed out even force some retreat. If you're just using the standard mass zealots with the warp prism, you won't lose any gas for the high tier units.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote: Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
Air, air, and air. Swarm hosts are massievely op when they get in large numbers, and impossible to beat if they have other stuff supporting them and perhaps a viper or two (your collosus will just get pulled in and annihilated). Their only weakness is that they don't shoot up, and happily toss air have been reciving major buffs from WoL to HoTS. So you will have to scout properly, and try to find out when its safe to stop collosus to keep yourself alive vs those hydras and roaches, and switch over to voidrays, tempest and carriers.
Thats the easiest way at least by far.
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Austria24413 Posts
Anybody tried chargelot/archon vs 3 base hydra/swarm host? I'm thinking a PvT-esque style with robo, twilight council and +1 armor instead of attack. QXC was playing around in a unit tester during a recent SotG and said archons deal better with locusts than colossi. I think it could work, chargelot/archon is also good against hydras. So with enough archons to kill locusts quickly, the composition should have the punch to kill hydra/swarm host before the numbers get too high. It's also not halted by an air transition by zerg, which in turns should allow yourself to transition into air more smoothly since zerg won't be making corruptors early.
The robo provides observers and ALSO: warp prisms. Which I feel is the big weakness of swarm hosts. They're expensive and they can only really focus on attacking/defending one place at a time. So zerg won't have a big army to split up an defend with. Also, the possibility to transition to colossi or pump out immortals if zerg cuts hydras against your zealot/archon and produces roaches.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote: Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
I'm not sure it was figured out yet. The 2-base contain version is easy to fight with a colossus rush, because they will not have corruptors or vipers in time. This version is only effective if you're caught off guard, and I suspect it will disappear quite soon.
The other versions, less rushy, are actually harder to deal with. You have to not engage directly on the zerg's term. Warp prism, blink stalkers are good. To kill the hosts themselves, colossi are an option, but beware of corruptors or vipers of course. HTs are not very good because you are on a timer. Air can work, but it's not a sure thing because there will be very strong anti-air. You have to chip away at the swarm hosts without letting your air being demolished by hydra or corruptors.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote: Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center.. I concur with the Warp Prism comments. I have also found that if you get a utility (read: not a rush) Dark Shrine you can buy a lot of time to deal with Zerg's composition. Best to do air openers and get that HT/Tempest combo, getting robo for obs and prisms, and a utility DShrine I think.
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So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.=
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On February 28 2013 22:05 Sherklok wrote: So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.=
Kind of obvious.. but... Voidray/Tempest/HT, no?
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On February 28 2013 22:05 Sherklok wrote: So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.=
Do not let them come to 200. 2 or 3 robos, pump immortals and some colossi. Attack with 4 colo, 12 immos, zealots. Colo will wipe out hellbats then die to vikings, immo will clean the floor. Some stalkers as reinforcement, take fourth (you expand agressively against mech, right?). Or kill them outright.
Or you can go the mass air route but yeah against viking + thors that's a very long game of chipping away at their army from a tempest distance.
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On February 28 2013 22:38 uLysSeS1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 22:05 Sherklok wrote: So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.= Kind of obvious.. but... Voidray/Tempest/HT, no? Rushing to that? Doesn't really work to well if it gets to late game I'm sure that's the best transition eventually but early on the Thor + Vikings can just wreck it unless you have flawless control.
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Can anyone provide a crash course for a fellow Zealot that took 3 months off and played none of the beta?
I've heard 3gate MsC builds are strong for early game pressure, and obviously that Skytoss is really good, but I'm wondering if there's a concise "here's the shit you gotta know for HotS, bro" guide.
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Austria24413 Posts
On February 28 2013 23:39 Crownlol wrote: Can anyone provide a crash course for a fellow Zealot that took 3 months off and played none of the beta?
I've heard 3gate MsC builds are strong for early game pressure, and obviously that Skytoss is really good, but I'm wondering if there's a concise "here's the shit you gotta know for HotS, bro" guide.
1) and most importantly! You have one day left, lol. So I recommend just go play the shit outta it and try everything one last time.
PvP is random and mostly about air control atm. PvZ is weird. Swarm hosts and mutas are good. Skytoss with HT support wins unless you screw up. PvT is the most similar to WoL. If terran opens gas, you're generally behind though because you can't know exactly what they're doing and they can use that advantage to cut corners. If you didn't have good drop defense in WoL you're gonna hate new medivacs.
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hey,
First of all, sorry for my bad english
I am a low Master Zerg on EU-Server WoL and I want to switch my Race from Zerg to Protoss because Protoss makes mutch more fun for me in the Beta and I never tryed an other Race then Zerg before.
Now with the new SC-Adoon I want to make the switch but my macro and general knowledge about toss is horrible. For this reason I want to start with a 2 base All-in for every mu to become a better understanding for Protoss.
I looked mutch into pro streams but dont really find what i am searching for, now i ask you my Tossfriends can you give some Tips, VoD's or BO's about HotS 2Base Toss ?
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Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes).
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On March 02 2013 03:08 TheDougler wrote: Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes). If you do http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tinman_11_Gate_into_3_Gate_Pressure_(vs._Protoss) you can usually throw your opponents off or win the game outright, provided you have that bo practiced and memorized (no joke, doing it over 100 times in competitive matches). Obviously it's not an economical build, but you can either do damage or force sentries that allow you to prepare for things that you would call "weird stuff," which in my book usually means unit-specific rushes. I would give you beta replays of me vs GM Protosses, but they wouldn't work :p
This is a WoL replay from about 6 months ago; build order is the same. If anything, this 3 gate is more effective since Ps sometimes elect to get an early msc in PvP, which is pretty ineffective vs stalkers: http://drop.sc/244915
Note: it's pretty easy to unwittingly put yourself all-in with this build, be careful.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote: Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
Pfft I dont know if stargate is the answer. I think you need a strong mobile force to deal with this. Something that can kill spine crawlers and dont get hit by corruptors. When ever I play vs this (I hit GMs and shit all the time in hots) I go archon immo blink and charge. I trade bases and dont deal with the locus until I can flank the swarm host. This comp owns spine crawlers, so you can easily kill bases if they attack you. Fighting locust always feels like suicide.
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Hey tossbros,
I've been playing a bit of HotS, and the one unit I can't figure out how to deal with is the Viper.
I don't have a replay handy, so I'll describe my most recent loss to it - game started out as normal (I do a nexus first into gateway/cyber/forge -> cannon -> 4 gateway pressure, very effective) and during the pressure I will send a hallucinated phoenix into their main/natural/3rd to get a FULL scout of my opponent, so I can transition to the midgame and lategame effectively.
In the game, my phoenix scouted a spire JUST starting... so I dropped 2 stargates. Once he saw I scouted his spire, he dropped a hydra den and switched to hydras. Very quickly afterwards I was putting pressure on his 3rd and saw that he had the hydras at this point, so I dropped a robo bay immediately once I realized there were no mutalisks, while I harassed his overlords and mineral lines with the 4 phoenix I had pumped out. Eventually he came to my 3rd with a ball of hydralisks and 5 vipers... and just pulled my 4 colossus in. I have no clue what I should have done. I didn't have enough phoenix to kill the Vipers (who were protected by hydras anyways), and a few templar would have cost about the same amount of gas as those 4 colossus... and worst of all I have to decide between feedbacking the Vipers or storming his army (which he can split). It seems like Vipers make Colossus irrelevant. Anyone have any ideas what they would've done in my situation?
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On March 02 2013 03:23 giblaz wrote: Hey tossbros,
I've been playing a bit of HotS, and the one unit I can't figure out how to deal with is the Viper.
I don't have a replay handy, so I'll describe my most recent loss to it - game started out as normal (I do a nexus first into gateway/cyber/forge -> cannon -> 4 gateway pressure, very effective) and during the pressure I will send a hallucinated phoenix into their main/natural/3rd to get a FULL scout of my opponent, so I can transition to the midgame and lategame effectively.
In the game, my phoenix scouted a spire JUST starting... so I dropped 2 stargates. Once he saw I scouted his spire, he dropped a hydra den and switched to hydras. Very quickly afterwards I was putting pressure on his 3rd and saw that he had the hydras at this point, so I dropped a robo bay immediately once I realized there were no mutalisks, while I harassed his overlords and mineral lines with the 4 phoenix I had pumped out. Eventually he came to my 3rd with a ball of hydralisks and 5 vipers... and just pulled my 4 colossus in. I have no clue what I should have done. I didn't have enough phoenix to kill the Vipers (who were protected by hydras anyways), and a few templar would have cost about the same amount of gas as those 4 colossus... and worst of all I have to decide between feedbacking the Vipers or storming his army (which he can split). It seems like Vipers make Colossus irrelevant. Anyone have any ideas what they would've done in my situation? I think it was ROOTLeiya who said, "Colossus don't belong in PvZ." Anyway, aside from answering with "Stargate is the strongest opener," seems in this situation (without a replay) that you didn't have the right unit composition. If you do Colossus in PvZ, you need about 5-7 full energy sentries which you most likely didn't have since you dropped 2 stargates and got phoenix on two bases most likely. If you have a low Colossus count, it's very easy for him to neutralize those with an equal or less amount of (cheaper) vipers given he has Hive tech or a few minutes.
I would say (again, without replay to watch) that High Templar are more what you want... In my mind I can see the double stargate was a good response, but colossus were a move that happened to be hard countered in that game by a Viper addition to a Hydra army. In a normal game you definitely want an early robotics facility, if only for observers, but an early game composition of sentry immortal stalker does really well and is augmented really well by the addition of high templar/archon.
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On March 02 2013 03:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 03:08 TheDougler wrote: Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes). If you do http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tinman_11_Gate_into_3_Gate_Pressure_(vs._Protoss) you can usually throw your opponents off or win the game outright, provided you have that bo practiced and memorized (no joke, doing it over 100 times in competitive matches). Obviously it's not an economical build, but you can either do damage or force sentries that allow you to prepare for things that you would call "weird stuff," which in my book usually means unit-specific rushes. I would give you beta replays of me vs GM Protosses, but they wouldn't work :p This is a WoL replay from about 6 months ago; build order is the same. If anything, this 3 gate is more effective since Ps sometimes elect to get an early msc in PvP, which is pretty ineffective vs stalkers: http://drop.sc/244915Note: it's pretty easy to unwittingly put yourself all-in with this build, be careful.
This is PERFECT, thank you.
And yeah, weird stuff is a proxy stargate which I shut down hard only to lose to the follow up DT expand (which to be honest I just messed up on, I shoulda known it was coming after he was super far behind due to losing a stargate and oracle while only getting 2 probes. [I opened phoenix]).
Or we both open stargate, he goes for an expand around 27 supply or so and I go for my usual expo killing build (phoenix immortal all in), and just get pulverised by good use of the nexus cannon and/or time warp. (I need to add my own MSC to the attack I think but it's tough microing that, the phoenixes, and any sentries that I happen to have kicking around from the early game
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On March 02 2013 04:02 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 03:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2013 03:08 TheDougler wrote: Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes). If you do http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tinman_11_Gate_into_3_Gate_Pressure_(vs._Protoss) you can usually throw your opponents off or win the game outright, provided you have that bo practiced and memorized (no joke, doing it over 100 times in competitive matches). Obviously it's not an economical build, but you can either do damage or force sentries that allow you to prepare for things that you would call "weird stuff," which in my book usually means unit-specific rushes. I would give you beta replays of me vs GM Protosses, but they wouldn't work :p This is a WoL replay from about 6 months ago; build order is the same. If anything, this 3 gate is more effective since Ps sometimes elect to get an early msc in PvP, which is pretty ineffective vs stalkers: http://drop.sc/244915Note: it's pretty easy to unwittingly put yourself all-in with this build, be careful. This is PERFECT, thank you. And yeah, weird stuff is a proxy stargate which I shut down hard only to lose to the follow up DT expand (which to be honest I just messed up on, I shoulda known it was coming after he was super far behind due to losing a stargate and oracle while only getting 2 probes. [I opened phoenix]). Or we both open stargate, he goes for an expand around 27 supply or so and I go for my usual expo killing build (phoenix immortal all in), and just get pulverised by good use of the nexus cannon and/or time warp. (I need to add my own MSC to the attack I think but it's tough microing that, the phoenixes, and any sentries that I happen to have kicking around from the early game Oh I forgot, if you suspect DT you drop a forge after first warp-in and you should be good, do a single cannon in mineral line and you can continue pressure or tech, or if you going to tech to robo just do that. Difference in time between starting the forge and having a cannon complete is identical to that of building a robo facility and using a single chronoboost on an observer (provided you have the resources for both and you aren't supply blocked, have a well-placed pylon, etc.)
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Hellbat/medivac vs. Zealots is extremely one sided. 3 hellbats can two shot two zealots. Its conical splash, negates flanking advantage.
H... H.....PP H...
A medivac heals almost the same damage (13.5dps) as a zealot can do (16dps). Basically for every medivac it can negate one zealot.
Two options: Maintain supperior range via kiting, e.g. stalker micro, HTs, colossi, etc. Take to the skies. Either via warp prism or sky toss.
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If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg.PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know.
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Yo mates, havent been playing sc2 for nearly 2 years and coming back atm. Downside is that i have NO IDEA of HOTS buildorders so could someone of you link me some guides or BO's ? (Was random diamond and protoss master)
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Austria24413 Posts
On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know.
A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles.
But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in.
You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important.
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On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important.
This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds.
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On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast.
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On March 13 2013 00:40 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast.
My thinking was that since they were hallucinated, they still had enough hit points to take a couple of shots each
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On March 13 2013 00:52 scur2d2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:40 SkaPunk wrote:On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast. My thinking was that since they were hallucinated, they still had enough hit points to take a couple of shots each
If I'm not mistaken two hallucinated probes are cheaper than one h.phoniex or immortal.
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On March 13 2013 01:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:52 scur2d2 wrote:On March 13 2013 00:40 SkaPunk wrote:On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast. My thinking was that since they were hallucinated, they still had enough hit points to take a couple of shots each If I'm not mistaken two hallucinated probes are cheaper than one h.phoniex or immortal.
Probes might die too quick for the mines to activate though. Phoenixes and immortals, with more hp (and speed), stand better chances of activating the mines.
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Sorry if this question has been asked before, but can somebody tell me (or link me to an explanation) of the standard timings for MsC in all 3 matchups, assuming I always FFE in PvZ? Also, what is the critical mass for tempests?
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Guys, how do you handle the new maps with impossible thirds to take versus Zerg (Star station, Neo Planet S, Bel'shir vestige)? Mass cannons? I veto at least two of them, but it is not a solution...
I also try two base pressure with third taking in the middle of it, but this only works because zergs are busy playing with their new toys and not having a solid response (which nicely fits into the previous messages in this thread). And because I'm playing gold opponents (weird placement due to launch day?). I remember during the beta I could not for the life of me take a third on star station, I really thought they would remove it, yet here it is on release...
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I usually put up some heavy pressure (colo if they are going anything but spire) while cannoning a third. Its slow but hopefully I do enough damage to even it out... I open SG and if I see mutas, go into heavy pheonix while upgrading then just try and kill them because their mutas didn't do much... This has failed to spores + mutas + Swarm Hosts though..
Speaking of which, how do you guys deal with swarm hosts into hive stuff? =\
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Is there any safe standard PvX build I can use? Not shooting for winning just for having the game last long enough (3-4 expansions up) to practice my mechanics/macro.
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On March 14 2013 05:10 i)awn wrote: Is there any safe standard PvX build I can use? Not shooting for winning just for having the game last long enough (3-4 expansions up) to practice my mechanics/macro. liquidpedia has lots of openers, you can FFE vs zerg and gate expand vs terran.
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Hey guys, I know this has already been posted, but since I see it becoming such a big issue I feel the need to post this. So, in pvz, I open forge fe into sg, usually 6 pheonixes. I have no issue with any zerg style except swarmhosts, which I cant beat at all.i Ive tried collosus void ray, 2 robo collosus, storm, warp prism, nothing seems to work against good players going swarm hosts. I've had games against machine, catz,and other good zergs. Any tips as to how to deal with them. The two main styles people like to do is swarm host hydra with queen, or swarm host corrupter with queens. Both of which i have no idea how to beat.
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On March 14 2013 19:45 swagsurgeon wrote: Hey guys, I know this has already been posted, but since I see it becoming such a big issue I feel the need to post this. So, in pvz, I open forge fe into sg, usually 6 pheonixes. I have no issue with any zerg style except swarmhosts, which I cant beat at all.i Ive tried collosus void ray, 2 robo collosus, storm, warp prism, nothing seems to work against good players going swarm hosts. I've had games against machine, catz,and other good zergs. Any tips as to how to deal with them. The two main styles people like to do is swarm host hydra with queen, or swarm host corrupter with queens. Both of which i have no idea how to beat.
Speed-prism HT drops. SH spawn movement speed is predictable so it's drop-storm-GTFO, while phoneix lay cover fire.
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On March 14 2013 19:45 swagsurgeon wrote: Hey guys, I know this has already been posted, but since I see it becoming such a big issue I feel the need to post this. So, in pvz, I open forge fe into sg, usually 6 pheonixes. I have no issue with any zerg style except swarmhosts, which I cant beat at all.i Ive tried collosus void ray, 2 robo collosus, storm, warp prism, nothing seems to work against good players going swarm hosts. I've had games against machine, catz,and other good zergs. Any tips as to how to deal with them. The two main styles people like to do is swarm host hydra with queen, or swarm host corrupter with queens. Both of which i have no idea how to beat.
Speed-prism HT drops. SH spawn movement speed is predictable so it's drop-storm-GTFO, while phoneix lay cover fire.
If anything his army is hugely immobile. Bonus points if you have tempests/Msc sniping the corruptors trying to chase the speed-prism.
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United States8476 Posts
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