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On March 02 2013 03:23 giblaz wrote:
Hey tossbros,
I've been playing a bit of HotS, and the one unit I can't figure out how to deal with is the Viper.
I don't have a replay handy, so I'll describe my most recent loss to it - game started out as normal (I do a nexus first into gateway/cyber/forge -> cannon -> 4 gateway pressure, very effective) and during the pressure I will send a hallucinated phoenix into their main/natural/3rd to get a FULL scout of my opponent, so I can transition to the midgame and lategame effectively.
In the game, my phoenix scouted a spire JUST starting... so I dropped 2 stargates. Once he saw I scouted his spire, he dropped a hydra den and switched to hydras. Very quickly afterwards I was putting pressure on his 3rd and saw that he had the hydras at this point, so I dropped a robo bay immediately once I realized there were no mutalisks, while I harassed his overlords and mineral lines with the 4 phoenix I had pumped out. Eventually he came to my 3rd with a ball of hydralisks and 5 vipers... and just pulled my 4 colossus in. I have no clue what I should have done. I didn't have enough phoenix to kill the Vipers (who were protected by hydras anyways), and a few templar would have cost about the same amount of gas as those 4 colossus... and worst of all I have to decide between feedbacking the Vipers or storming his army (which he can split). It seems like Vipers make Colossus irrelevant. Anyone have any ideas what they would've done in my situation?
I think it was ROOTLeiya who said, "Colossus don't belong in PvZ." Anyway, aside from answering with "Stargate is the strongest opener," seems in this situation (without a replay) that you didn't have the right unit composition. If you do Colossus in PvZ, you need about 5-7 full energy sentries which you most likely didn't have since you dropped 2 stargates and got phoenix on two bases most likely. If you have a low Colossus count, it's very easy for him to neutralize those with an equal or less amount of (cheaper) vipers given he has Hive tech or a few minutes.
I would say (again, without replay to watch) that High Templar are more what you want... In my mind I can see the double stargate was a good response, but colossus were a move that happened to be hard countered in that game by a Viper addition to a Hydra army. In a normal game you definitely want an early robotics facility, if only for observers, but an early game composition of sentry immortal stalker does really well and is augmented really well by the addition of high templar/archon.
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On March 02 2013 03:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 03:08 TheDougler wrote:
Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes). If you do http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tinman_11_Gate_into_3_Gate_Pressure_(vs._Protoss) you can usually throw your opponents off or win the game outright, provided you have that bo practiced and memorized (no joke, doing it over 100 times in competitive matches). Obviously it's not an economical build, but you can either do damage or force sentries that allow you to prepare for things that you would call "weird stuff," which in my book usually means unit-specific rushes. I would give you beta replays of me vs GM Protosses, but they wouldn't work :p This is a WoL replay from about 6 months ago; build order is the same. If anything, this 3 gate is more effective since Ps sometimes elect to get an early msc in PvP, which is pretty ineffective vs stalkers: http://drop.sc/244915Note: it's pretty easy to unwittingly put yourself all-in with this build, be careful.
This is PERFECT, thank you.
And yeah, weird stuff is a proxy stargate which I shut down hard only to lose to the follow up DT expand (which to be honest I just messed up on, I shoulda known it was coming after he was super far behind due to losing a stargate and oracle while only getting 2 probes. [I opened phoenix]).
Or we both open stargate, he goes for an expand around 27 supply or so and I go for my usual expo killing build (phoenix immortal all in), and just get pulverised by good use of the nexus cannon and/or time warp. (I need to add my own MSC to the attack I think but it's tough microing that, the phoenixes, and any sentries that I happen to have kicking around from the early game
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On March 02 2013 04:02 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 03:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2013 03:08 TheDougler wrote:
Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes). If you do http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tinman_11_Gate_into_3_Gate_Pressure_(vs._Protoss) you can usually throw your opponents off or win the game outright, provided you have that bo practiced and memorized (no joke, doing it over 100 times in competitive matches). Obviously it's not an economical build, but you can either do damage or force sentries that allow you to prepare for things that you would call "weird stuff," which in my book usually means unit-specific rushes. I would give you beta replays of me vs GM Protosses, but they wouldn't work :p This is a WoL replay from about 6 months ago; build order is the same. If anything, this 3 gate is more effective since Ps sometimes elect to get an early msc in PvP, which is pretty ineffective vs stalkers: http://drop.sc/244915Note: it's pretty easy to unwittingly put yourself all-in with this build, be careful. This is PERFECT, thank you. And yeah, weird stuff is a proxy stargate which I shut down hard only to lose to the follow up DT expand (which to be honest I just messed up on, I shoulda known it was coming after he was super far behind due to losing a stargate and oracle while only getting 2 probes. [I opened phoenix]). Or we both open stargate, he goes for an expand around 27 supply or so and I go for my usual expo killing build (phoenix immortal all in), and just get pulverised by good use of the nexus cannon and/or time warp. (I need to add my own MSC to the attack I think but it's tough microing that, the phoenixes, and any sentries that I happen to have kicking around from the early game
Oh I forgot, if you suspect DT you drop a forge after first warp-in and you should be good, do a single cannon in mineral line and you can continue pressure or tech, or if you going to tech to robo just do that. Difference in time between starting the forge and having a cannon complete is identical to that of building a robo facility and using a single chronoboost on an observer (provided you have the resources for both and you aren't supply blocked, have a well-placed pylon, etc.)
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Hellbat/medivac vs. Zealots is extremely one sided.
3 hellbats can two shot two zealots.
Its conical splash, negates flanking advantage.
H...
H.....PP
H...
A medivac heals almost the same damage (13.5dps) as a zealot can do (16dps).
Basically for every medivac it can negate one zealot.
Two options:
Maintain supperior range via kiting, e.g. stalker micro, HTs, colossi, etc.
Take to the skies. Either via warp prism or sky toss.
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If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg.PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know.
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Yo mates,
havent been playing sc2 for nearly 2 years and coming back atm. Downside is that i have NO IDEA of HOTS buildorders so could someone of you link me some guides or BO's ?
(Was random diamond and protoss master)
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know.
A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base.
Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles.
But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in.
You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important.
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On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important.
This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds.
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On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast.
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On March 13 2013 00:40 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast.
My thinking was that since they were hallucinated, they still had enough hit points to take a couple of shots each
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On March 13 2013 00:52 scur2d2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:40 SkaPunk wrote:On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast. My thinking was that since they were hallucinated, they still had enough hit points to take a couple of shots each
If I'm not mistaken two hallucinated probes are cheaper than one h.phoniex or immortal.
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On March 13 2013 01:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:52 scur2d2 wrote:On March 13 2013 00:40 SkaPunk wrote:On March 13 2013 00:36 scur2d2 wrote:On March 12 2013 17:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2013 17:05 JimTheCat wrote:If I try and do some like 8 gate all in vs terran eg. PartinG's Fast 3 Nexus 8 Gate All In , does that just not work anymore due to widow mines? or is there a way to get around this? like maybe throwing a zealot to tank widow mines idk, if anybody knows a good way of dealing with widow mines while doing a Gateway all in, please let me know. A 2 base gateway all in might still work vs terran if they go quick starport with only few mines and you manage to detonate them on single units and it of course still works vs standard WoL bio play. If it's the WoL-esque style, terran will likely not get too many mines early. They're kind of like early sentries for protoss in the sense that you wanna make only the amount you need to be safe to delay your tech as little as possible. OR they can go quick starport (like a 1 rax FE right into factory -> starport) to drop the mines in your base. Parting's 8 gate was originally designed to not just defend against standard terran midgame aggression but even punish it. But because it hits later than the 2 base version, terran should be able to easily shut it down with mines in HotS. I don't think you can do 3 Nexus at all currently since new medivacs will punish you super hard unless you immediately go blink, in which case you won't have enough to win straight up battles. But I think a 1gate expand -> robo for an observer and then an 8gate all in could do very well. There was just never a need for an observer with the attack before. Might catch terran off guard too because scouting a robo rarely indicates a gateway all in. You could also try to use hallucination to detonate mines but relying on that is pretty gimmicky imo and FFs + guardian shield might be more important. This is pretty genius, hallucination to detonate mines never occurred to me. Couple of Immortals to tank the initial shots and you should be in a pretty good spot.. for 40 seconds. WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH. Do not tank widow mines with immortals, they don't activate shields, causing them to die SUPER fast. My thinking was that since they were hallucinated, they still had enough hit points to take a couple of shots each If I'm not mistaken two hallucinated probes are cheaper than one h.phoniex or immortal.
Probes might die too quick for the mines to activate though. Phoenixes and immortals, with more hp (and speed), stand better chances of activating the mines.
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Sorry if this question has been asked before, but can somebody tell me (or link me to an explanation) of the standard timings for MsC in all 3 matchups, assuming I always FFE in PvZ? Also, what is the critical mass for tempests?
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Guys, how do you handle the new maps with impossible thirds to take versus Zerg (Star station, Neo Planet S, Bel'shir vestige)? Mass cannons? I veto at least two of them, but it is not a solution...
I also try two base pressure with third taking in the middle of it, but this only works because zergs are busy playing with their new toys and not having a solid response (which nicely fits into the previous messages in this thread). And because I'm playing gold opponents (weird placement due to launch day?). I remember during the beta I could not for the life of me take a third on star station, I really thought they would remove it, yet here it is on release...
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I usually put up some heavy pressure (colo if they are going anything but spire) while cannoning a third. Its slow but hopefully I do enough damage to even it out... I open SG and if I see mutas, go into heavy pheonix while upgrading then just try and kill them because their mutas didn't do much... This has failed to spores + mutas + Swarm Hosts though..
Speaking of which, how do you guys deal with swarm hosts into hive stuff? =\
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Is there any safe standard PvX build I can use? Not shooting for winning just for having the game last long enough (3-4 expansions up) to practice my mechanics/macro.
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On March 14 2013 05:10 i)awn wrote:
Is there any safe standard PvX build I can use? Not shooting for winning just for having the game last long enough (3-4 expansions up) to practice my mechanics/macro. liquidpedia has lots of openers, you can FFE vs zerg and gate expand vs terran.
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Hey guys, I know this has already been posted, but since I see it becoming such a big issue I feel the need to post this.
So, in pvz, I open forge fe into sg, usually 6 pheonixes. I have no issue with any zerg style except swarmhosts, which I cant beat at all.i Ive tried collosus void ray, 2 robo collosus, storm, warp prism, nothing seems to work against good players going swarm hosts. I've had games against machine, catz,and other good zergs. Any tips as to how to deal with them. The two main styles people like to do is swarm host hydra with queen, or swarm host corrupter with queens. Both of which i have no idea how to beat.
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On March 14 2013 19:45 swagsurgeon wrote:
Hey guys, I know this has already been posted, but since I see it becoming such a big issue I feel the need to post this.
So, in pvz, I open forge fe into sg, usually 6 pheonixes. I have no issue with any zerg style except swarmhosts, which I cant beat at all.i Ive tried collosus void ray, 2 robo collosus, storm, warp prism, nothing seems to work against good players going swarm hosts. I've had games against machine, catz,and other good zergs. Any tips as to how to deal with them. The two main styles people like to do is swarm host hydra with queen, or swarm host corrupter with queens. Both of which i have no idea how to beat.
Speed-prism HT drops.
SH spawn movement speed is predictable so it's drop-storm-GTFO, while phoneix lay cover fire.
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On March 14 2013 19:45 swagsurgeon wrote:
Hey guys, I know this has already been posted, but since I see it becoming such a big issue I feel the need to post this.
So, in pvz, I open forge fe into sg, usually 6 pheonixes. I have no issue with any zerg style except swarmhosts, which I cant beat at all.i Ive tried collosus void ray, 2 robo collosus, storm, warp prism, nothing seems to work against good players going swarm hosts. I've had games against machine, catz,and other good zergs. Any tips as to how to deal with them. The two main styles people like to do is swarm host hydra with queen, or swarm host corrupter with queens. Both of which i have no idea how to beat.
Speed-prism HT drops.
SH spawn movement speed is predictable so it's drop-storm-GTFO, while phoneix lay cover fire.
If anything his army is hugely immobile. Bonus points if you have tempests/Msc sniping the corruptors trying to chase the speed-prism.
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EPT
