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On February 18 2013 16:05 fplsmurf1 wrote:
What's the best way to respond to two base swarm hosts? Is it basically necessary to go colossi on 2 base?
I just played a game against a zerg doing 2 base swarm host. I opened FFE Stargate into robo and with my first phoenix I scouted swarm host. Through down another robo and rolled him over with collosus and warp prism play. Since his whole army will be at your front warp prism is really strong.
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Took a break for awhile, and aside from rust in defending drops PvT (Widow Mines and Speed are insane!), and just overall dumb play PvZ, I can't for the life of me figure out PvP.
What's a safe opener to use, where it won't leave you drastically far behind? I almost always open Stargate, but if they just Stargate/Expo, they'll be able to defend while having an economic advantage. Or if I see 2 Gases, they could just DT. Or if I see earlier gases again, they'll just go for a greedier Stargate play. What's the proper response if you fall behind on Phoenix early? idk this MU has me scratching my head like crazy. I have no sense of flow when I play it.
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I've had some success in Protoss vs Protoss lately against an opponent who goes for stargate and proceeds to make phoenix to harass, void rays for the stalkers, and then eventually tempest. I get a dark shrine and try to use DT's to harass, and I create archons. It seems to me like void rays are not very efficient versus archons, neither are tempests, and phoenix cannot lift them up. As long as I make sure my archons are in front, it seems like a archon/stalker/high templar army could be superior to a pheonix, tempest, void ray composition.
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Anyone figured, how to deal with 2base Hellbat/Thor + few Vikings + Raven + SCV's push? It hits around 14 minute mark (can hit earlier if he scouts Tempest or Voidray), it's like 160+ supply and it hits really, really hard...
edit: I've experienced even 0/2 upgrades from Terran, in which case, Hellbats/Thors just don't die. Everything is repaired, or healed (few medivacs might be left from drops).
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On February 24 2013 06:15 Everlong wrote:
Anyone figured, how to deal with 2base Hellbat/Thor + few Vikings + Raven + SCV's push? It hits around 14 minute mark (can hit earlier if he scouts Tempest or Voidray), it's like 160+ supply and it hits really, really hard...
edit: I've experienced even 0/2 upgrades from Terran, in which case, Hellbats/Thors just don't die. Everything is repaired, or healed (few medivacs might be left from drops).
Won't an immortal/high templar composition work against this?
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On February 24 2013 09:28 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:15 Everlong wrote:
Anyone figured, how to deal with 2base Hellbat/Thor + few Vikings + Raven + SCV's push? It hits around 14 minute mark (can hit earlier if he scouts Tempest or Voidray), it's like 160+ supply and it hits really, really hard...
edit: I've experienced even 0/2 upgrades from Terran, in which case, Hellbats/Thors just don't die. Everything is repaired, or healed (few medivacs might be left from drops). Won't an immortal/high templar composition work against this?
I think I know what push he's talking about, and HT just aren't as great as they used to be vs that. Thors don't have energy bars anymore and hellbats can soak storms reasonably well. I think the key is to get a 3rd base up as fast as possible when u scout that so that you can overwhelm with immortal+archon+blink stalker. if you have 2-3 robotics pumping out immortals you should have enough to be killing his thors before they can get repaired. Some colossus might not be a bad idea either if you can hide them and he's not making too many vikings blind. also make sure when you engage you try to set up a flank.
upgrades aren't going to be as important but some attack ups later on when you can afford it might be useful.
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What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts?
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On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts?
try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down.
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On February 24 2013 12:30 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts? try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down.
I'll have to try that out. I haven't been comfortable enough with moving out early to put pressure on, but that sounds like a good idea if I get comfortable with it.
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On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts?
3gate-stargate
There are several builds that get you there. The primary difference is how many gateways and gateway units you pressure with before getting the stargate. 3gate-blink all-ins are quite popular, but those can struggle against DTs. Pros do them because DTs don't seem to be very common at the GM level. Watch a few pro replays to find one that you like. TriBones, Kyo, and hellokitty have all been regularly posting replay packs on the forums, so steal their builds or one of their opponents' builds from those after you find one that you like. I'm disappointed because 2gate FE and DTs seem to have slowly disappeared ever since the oracle envision buff. I also really feel for the lower-level players. They really don't have the APM to handle phoenix because they're so micro-intensive, so they're all gonna be stuck doing pure gateway pushes.
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So for anyone curious or anyone who simply wants to learn from my mistakes/experience - here goes:
I have played two notable PvP's, one versus a turtle Protoss who went for air-toss, and another versus a turtle Protoss who went for mass void ray. I have been trying to avoid using stargate tech to counter stargate tech (although I will if it is deemed necessary) and I have not had much success. The tempest/carrier/mothership player was content to sit back, expand, make a lot of cannons and wait, and then if you attacked (both would be maxed) your ground army wouldn't be able to even attack his army all at once. After playing this game I noticed that archons were pretty good versus tempest, but that you need to draw a line (probably at the third base) at which point you have to be aggressive, air-toss eventually trumps everything else.
Then I played a game versus a turtle-toss who massed void rays. I went for a dt opening and used them to make archons, stalkers, and zealots. Ultimately archons didn't fare that well versus the void rays, archons take too long to rip through the ground forces in order to make their way to the void rays.
A few things I've noticed though that I will make use of as I play more PvP games:- Air toss doesn't seem to have a lot of good harassing options, they don't want to move out across the map and prefer to turtle because wide-open engagements aren't their forte.
- I didn't get shield upgrades, and considering that void rays attack extremely quick and an archons health is entirely shields, 3 shield upgrades could have made a huge difference, although it still wouldn't seem like they're the appropriate response.
- The most likely unit to add and have success with would be the high templar. Void rays tend to stack and they don't have a tremendous amount of health, I don't think they could afford to simply sit in psi storm. More than that though, psi storm drops would probably be the best thing to do because air-toss doesn't have a lot of harassment options outside of oracles which are shut down with a few cannons and/or blink stalkers.
EDIT: I just confirmed in unit tester that shield upgrades make a massive, massive difference in archons versus void rays. Realistically, I think you can probably expect an upgrade advantage as the ground player, but the most realistic expectation you can hope for is 3 shield upgrades to 1 or 2 air weapon upgrades.
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What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff.
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I have such a hard time defending gas openers against Terran. No gas is practically auto win because of Oracles/VRs off of one base. However, when the Terran goes a gas, I usually do an MC expand (1 Gate, 28-30~ Nexus, 3 Gates, Robo at 6 minutes).
I'll have a Zealot/Stalker/Pylon blocking the ramp to ideally prevent Hellions from running by, while 2 Stalkers in my base go cover cliffs for possible Reapers. If it's Reapers, I'll just play standard from then on. If it's Widow Mines, I haven't won a game against Speedvac/Midow Mine drops. I don't know how to split my Stalkers. It's like.. 4 Stalkers to kill ONE mine before it burrows, and if even 1 Stalker waits a shot on a Medivac, you'll have to pull Probes and wait for your Obs. And then, if he drops multiples, you'll have to run away regardless of that.
I just have such a hard time splitting my units to defend both bases. It's the same thing in the Natural. MShip core with charge on the Nexus, but if the shot wastes on the Medivac, and/or there are multiple mines, then it's move your probes or lose a ton. And of course, I'm not really able to move then that quickly, especially if I'm dealing with a drop in one base, the other one will mostly be left without my attention.
And I guess, it's really frustrating, because with the speed, it's rather difficult to see them on the minimap, especially since I have no map presence until I get a second or even third Observer. And then, after defending the drop, I don't have a clue how to transition into a game. Do I do double Forge/Robo? Single Forge/Twilight? When can I scout what to do? When do I get a Sentry? Does anyone have any replays of standard defense against this? Or even one where the game didn't go to well, but you still clawed through?
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On February 25 2013 08:28 Daimai wrote:
What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff.
If they open gas you really need to go 1g or 2g robo expand to be safe. From there you can just play a WoL-ish midgame with colossus, blink stalkers, chargeots, HT/archons. Double forge is still great vs bio but vs mech you only really need the attack upgrades (and not as urgently).
To deal with the new medivacs I've been keeping my mothership core in between my bases so I can overcharge it if I get dropped. A few cannons per mineral line is also a good idea, you can add those on when you're taking your third or earlier if they are trying widow mine drops. I like to get blink first since the drops are so common nowadays and it helps me to protect my colossus from vikings as well. As long as you keep your upgrades churning/ proxy a pylon by their third so you can check on the timing/counter harass it/ don't lose too much to drops then you should be in good shape to take a 4th and start your tech switch to storm (or colossus if you went storm first).
vs widow mine drop into bio timing: http://drop.sc/306999
vs proxy fact and bio midgame. Besides getting my army nuked (I had my music on too loud -_-) I think I played this one pretty well.
http://drop.sc/306942
good opening/drop defense on my part. Also a good example of why you should not try to attack a terran who has been on 2 base for too long (even with recall available the MSC can get 1 shot easily when he has 2port vikings):
http://drop.sc/307003
As for dealing with mech, it really depends on what composition he's going for since I've seen terrans experimenting with a bunch of different timings and styles. If it's something like 3 base tank/hellbat/viking with a few mines then I'd recommend a fast third, bunch of immortals, archons, blink stalkers, chargelots, and +attack ups. You can eventually grab some phoenix as well (2sg when your fourth goes down) since his anti-air won't be great and they are great at lifting tanks and hellbats (remember that hellbats are light units!). Engagements will obviously be the most important factor so you really need to try hard to get a good flank if you don't have phoenix yet.
Replay vs tank/hellbat/raven push: http://drop.sc/306997 (I tried getting voids at the end but couldn't really afford it so IMO it would have been better to crank out some phoenix since he had a very low thor count)
DTs can also be nice to mix in if you notice the terran doesn't have turrets all over the place with hallucinate scouts (you should be sending hallucinated phoenix out every now and then).
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On February 25 2013 06:20 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 12:30 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts? try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down. I'll have to try that out. I haven't been comfortable enough with moving out early to put pressure on, but that sounds like a good idea if I get comfortable with it.
Just played a bunch of games today and I had a few good PvPs that you might be interested in seeing.
http://drop.sc/307006 -- vs a DT opening. My robo was probably a little later than it should have been considering how shady it was that he had no units at his ramp when i poked up. The reason I went colo tech afterwards is that usually a DT player will do some kind of archon bust on 1 or 2 base (if 1 base I would have given up my expo). He also sniped my robotics and usually you want to go air when the other guy is going robotics, so I figured there was a decent chance he wasn't going to reactively throw down a few stargates after killing my robo tech. However he did so anyway and that's why I wound up cancelling my colo/range and reactively going phoenix instead. Kind of a weird situation but if you think about it, he was being slightly more inifficient in his tech routes than I was since he built TC--> DT --> double stargate when for instance he could have just gone blink after my ability to make immortals is diminished. So his ground army was never big enough for him to do anything threatening while I pumped out phoenix. Also note how I tried to hide the phoenix for as long as possible since I knew he was only making voids (flying by the tower was a mistake)
http://drop.sc/307007 -- in this game I overextended a little bit with my pressure, so he wound up slightly ahead macro-wise. I knew I had an upgrade/colo advantage and planned on hitting a +2 blink timing which should have worked but I decided to take a third instead of adding 3-4 more gates to support my attack. I definitely would have been better off getting those gates so that I could have been maxed in that last fight.
http://drop.sc/307009 -- another game vs a dt opening. this time he stayed on 1 base for a while so I gave up my expo and built some colossus. Instead of pushing all the way across the map I retook my expansion since it's very risky to be out in the open vs chargelot archon. I kind of expected him to do some intense void ray tech switch since he knew about my robo tech, but in turn that wound up limiting his army supply so I was able to hit a timing before he got a critical mass of void rays. Alternatively I would have been ok taking a third and going 3sg phoenix like I did in the other game (just keep in mind that securing a third is tougher on star station).
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On February 25 2013 10:26 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 08:28 Daimai wrote:
What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff. If they open gas you really need to go 1g or 2g robo expand to be safe.
I agree - but I got a question, I've really struggled dealing with mass reapers with that opening, what do you do against them? I really feel like you need like a 3gate expand or some kind of a gate/forge expand to be able to deal with a large number of reapers, because getting such an early robo means you have very few gateway units and just a MSC, which isn't enough if the terran controls well from my personal experience.
Edit: Hmm, I guess you could rush your MSC to your opponents base and that would force marines instead of reapers I suppose?
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On February 25 2013 12:31 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 10:26 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 25 2013 08:28 Daimai wrote:
What is the standard midgame vs terran right now? I though WoL PvT was hard, but damn, in HotS I just die in the midgame no matter what I do. Mech is really strong and bio seems to have become stronger aswell since the medivac buff. If they open gas you really need to go 1g or 2g robo expand to be safe. I agree - but I got a question, I've really struggled dealing with mass reapers with that opening, what do you do against them? I really feel like you need like a 3gate expand or some kind of a gate/forge expand to be able to deal with a large number of reapers, because getting such an early robo means you have very few gateway units and just a MSC, which isn't enough if the terran controls well from my personal experience. Edit: Hmm, I guess you could rush your MSC to your opponents base and that would force marines instead of reapers I suppose?
the new reapers don't really do that much damage to anything (even probes) so a mothership core, zealot and sentry should be more than enough to hold off reapers until warpgate finishes. If you are really seeing a lot of reapers you can get a second stalker instead of sentry. I always chrono out my first stalker so that it pops in time for the reaper rush on most maps, then get the MSC about 28-30 supply. IMO anything more than two reapers is kind of gimmicky and just a waste of resources.
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On February 25 2013 11:01 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 06:20 ronpaul012 wrote:On February 24 2013 12:30 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 24 2013 12:10 ronpaul012 wrote:
What do you guys think the safest opener in pvp is right now? I'm winning a fair amount, but I just feel as if its a big coin flip right now. I can no longer go immortals early to counter blink/gateway push because of stargate play. So I'm left with 2 options, stargate play myself or blink stalkers. Blink stalkers feels very map dependent, and if they scout it coming I am dead. At the same time, if I keep them in the dark and surprise them its usually a win versus stargate. Then you get the guys who dont know the meta on hots and just go immortals, which shouldnt work but it does because they think they're playing WoL.
I also saw the post above recommending dt's, but I feel as if that can easily be shut down if you're playing a turtle player, although maybe an archon timing would work really well vs a small amount of void rays early game.
I guess I could just go stargate play myself, but I haven't really played enough pvp air vs air to really see where it's heading. Any thoughts? try 3 stalker into 5 stalker poke with mothership core, or 3g pressure. Being aggressive early is a great way to get some info on his tech choices and you can often times expand safely behind it with either a robo (if you think he is going dt or don't scout anything), or a stargate. If you can contain him with a forcefield or two while doing so then all the better, it will buy time for your nex to finish so you can overcharge it if he counters. Alternatively you could try to go into 5 g blink after your 2g expo and even if he's going void rays or immortals on 1 base you have so many stalkers that you can 1 or 2 shot the scary units down. I'll have to try that out. I haven't been comfortable enough with moving out early to put pressure on, but that sounds like a good idea if I get comfortable with it. Just played a bunch of games today and I had a few good PvPs that you might be interested in seeing. http://drop.sc/307006 -- vs a DT opening. My robo was probably a little later than it should have been considering how shady it was that he had no units at his ramp when i poked up. The reason I went colo tech afterwards is that usually a DT player will do some kind of archon bust on 1 or 2 base (if 1 base I would have given up my expo). He also sniped my robotics and usually you want to go air when the other guy is going robotics, so I figured there was a decent chance he wasn't going to reactively throw down a few stargates after killing my robo tech. However he did so anyway and that's why I wound up cancelling my colo/range and reactively going phoenix instead. Kind of a weird situation but if you think about it, he was being slightly more inifficient in his tech routes than I was since he built TC--> DT --> double stargate when for instance he could have just gone blink after my ability to make immortals is diminished. So his ground army was never big enough for him to do anything threatening while I pumped out phoenix. Also note how I tried to hide the phoenix for as long as possible since I knew he was only making voids (flying by the tower was a mistake) http://drop.sc/307007 -- in this game I overextended a little bit with my pressure, so he wound up slightly ahead macro-wise. I knew I had an upgrade/colo advantage and planned on hitting a +2 blink timing which should have worked but I decided to take a third instead of adding 3-4 more gates to support my attack. I definitely would have been better off getting those gates so that I could have been maxed in that last fight. http://drop.sc/307009 -- another game vs a dt opening. this time he stayed on 1 base for a while so I gave up my expo and built some colossus. Instead of pushing all the way across the map I retook my expansion since it's very risky to be out in the open vs chargelot archon. I kind of expected him to do some intense void ray tech switch since he knew about my robo tech, but in turn that wound up limiting his army supply so I was able to hit a timing before he got a critical mass of void rays. Alternatively I would have been ok taking a third and going 3sg phoenix like I did in the other game (just keep in mind that securing a third is tougher on star station).
Currently in class so I'll have to watch it later, however thanks in advance. Also, I agree with your reaper analysis in another post. A lot of terrans seem to be mis-using them against protoss. They're not huge damage dealers, but extremely good scouting units.
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Is there any way to win against good Zergs other than turtle stargate shit?
I win every game with that even against GMs or professionals but it is just so damn boring.. Sit on 2 bases, get void rays, sit on 3 bases, get carriers, sit on 4 and max a-move+storm = gg..
But I feel like the thread of swarmhosts makes any ground army that doesn't involve fast colossi terrible, Colossi on the other hand also force some sort of turtle play..
I tried Blinkstalker Sentry Immortal but it just sucks against Swarm Hosts...
Ideas?
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On February 26 2013 03:12 rEalGuapo wrote:
Is there any way to win against good Zergs other than turtle stargate shit?
I win every game with that even against GMs or professionals but it is just so damn boring.. Sit on 2 bases, get void rays, sit on 3 bases, get carriers, sit on 4 and max a-move+storm = gg..
But I feel like the thread of swarmhosts makes any ground army that doesn't involve fast colossi terrible, Colossi on the other hand also force some sort of turtle play..
I tried Blinkstalker Sentry Immortal but it just sucks against Swarm Hosts...
Ideas?
The many forms of gateway pressure off 1 or 2 bases are still viable, a la Grubby. You also have a lot of phoenix or warp prism harass options while turtling, the Kyo plan. Or you can do a fast 6-7 min third, White-Ra style, but that seems very difficult to pull off. I tried that early on and was horrible with it. The only real change is that immortal/sentry doesn't work anymore and mass phoenix/void ray does. Once a bunch of swarm hosts get in position you need either splash damage and/or air units to respond, but there's a lot you can do to delay them getting to that point.
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EPT
