EPTThe (HotS) Protoss Help Me Thread Beta - Page 14
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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alQahira
United States511 Posts
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fplsmurf1
Angola1 Post
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
I know the concept of units and how various compositions work, so I won't have a problem with late game. But I'm not very familiar with their early game or their mindset when it comes to macro. So in preparation for Protoss week, I have just a couple questions. 1) I'd like to first learn some openers which are not all-in. If I had to choose from two or three opening builds, which would you suggest are most worth learning? (and for which matchups would they work). 2) I mostly have a "Zerg Mentality" with early scouting and responses. Normally as a Zerg if I see a Protoss expand I know I can be relatively safe to drone for a bit because the early aggression will be weak. What is the appropriate Protoss response if they see Protoss or Terran player do a quick expand? Do you want to try to outmacro them? Or do you punish greedy play with a timing push? I don't really know how different the Protoss dynamic is. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On that note, really loving the new era of maps, creating much better games especially PvZ imho. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Protoss can do both. Chronoboost is a mechanic that allows you to focus on very specific things and helps you get an advantage that way. For example, if you want your advantage in a game to be upgrades, chronoboosting forges will very likely give you upgrade advantages but it will take away from something else that could have been ready sooner if chrono'd. Economy is the same. You can focus very heavily on chronoing probes and you'll catch up in worker count rather quickly (against terran or protoss). In PvP it used to be veeeeery punishable to do an early expand. However with the new mothership core I've heard people say that you can 1gate expand and be safe with good unit control. Against terran you're free to do whatever, really. If you do a super safe and standard gateway, cyber core expand after stalker you won't really be behind vs a terran that goes 1rax FE. You can cut the cyber core and gas to get a nexus down faster but that's not always safe. On the other hand, you can always get aggressive with a timing after your expansion finishes. For example, there's very quick 4gate after expand builds that can catch your opponent completely off guard if they don't see any indicators for it. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On February 18 2013 18:50 Surili wrote: Anyone finding PvT midgame really hard now against the super medivacs? The mid game was always the hardest part of PvT for me, (and most protosses), but i don't really understand what is so different (against bio obviously), and why i am finding it so much harder. Every double medivac drop seems to do massive massive damage. Maybe it is the new maps that tend to be more open. On that note, really loving the new era of maps, creating much better games especially PvZ imho. Probably because if T opens gas, your entire BO is much less economical, and if they opt to play standard behind it, you're simply behind. I can't really say without seeing your replays, but in my experience I just feel behind due to over reacting to gas due to the endless possibilities T has currently. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
This has worked against diamond zergs in beta and I have no idea how it would work higher up on ladder but for the very common mass muta build at the platinum/diamond level it works quite well (especially against zergs who try to use minimal defense when rushing to mutas). I haven't polished it at all yet as I have only played a few games with it but it seems to have potential. I imagine with practice I could squeeze out more zealots or phoenixes. I haven't even looked at expanding behind it yet but I do think it is possible since I could just skip a few zealots and expand behind the pressure. It might not sound all that great but it has put me into a positive win percentage in PvZ finally. It definitely needs polishing though. Edit: and yeah, playing against gas-first Terran is a pain. It is so hard to tell what they are doing and if you guess wrong you lose. I ended up just going back to 1gate expand for now as many of them seem to be going kinda back to 1rax expand or if they try mech timings they hit late enough that I will have enough out to defend. I haven't faced early mines yet so that could be pretty tough to hold. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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ant-1
Canada149 Posts
On February 20 2013 04:23 Ben... wrote: Does anyone else use mass phoenix/+1 zealot against those zergs who go 3 base fast spire and use the third base only for gas so they can rush for 9-10 minute mutas? As soon as I scout spire (which I will with the 4 phoenix opening) I go for a second stargate, fleet beacon (rather than a third stargate since range feels more useful than a few extra phoenixes in this case since all you have to do is basically deal with the first set of mutas) and then enough gateways so I have about 7 in total so I can dump all my extra minerals into zealots. This seems very potent against those zergs who go mass muta/speedling because the lings won't have upgrades other than speed because the zerg banked all their gas for mutas so +1 zealots (I usually have around 20 or so when I push out along with about 10-12 phoenixes if I kept my 4 opening phoenixes alive. I haven't perfected this yet) absolutely destroy the lings and you use the phoenixes to protect the zealots from mutas. And if they try and trick you and switch into mass roach after only a few mutas you just switch to a few voidrays to deal with roaches and kill queens with your phoenixes quite easily since spores won't be able to handle that many phoenixes. This has worked against diamond zergs in beta and I have no idea how it would work higher up on ladder but for the very common mass muta build at the platinum/diamond level it works quite well (especially against zergs who try to use minimal defense when rushing to mutas). I haven't polished it at all yet as I have only played a few games with it but it seems to have potential. I imagine with practice I could squeeze out more zealots or phoenixes. I haven't even looked at expanding behind it yet but I do think it is possible since I could just skip a few zealots and expand behind the pressure. It might not sound all that great but it has put me into a positive win percentage in PvZ finally. It definitely needs polishing though. Edit: and yeah, playing against gas-first Terran is a pain. It is so hard to tell what they are doing and if you guess wrong you lose. I ended up just going back to 1gate expand for now as many of them seem to be going kinda back to 1rax expand or if they try mech timings they hit late enough that I will have enough out to defend. I haven't faced early mines yet so that could be pretty tough to hold. Most of the Zerg I face scout stargate and switch to hydras, usually before putting down their spire. Hydra cost gas so it's easy for them to switch and usually I die to mass hydras. But I'll try your build for the stubborn ones  For T one-gate expand is freaking risky and yes it's hard to know what they plan. What's funny is in the T help thread they freak out about our one-base allins and that they have a hard time figuring out between them ^^ | ||
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DanieltheSeraph
United States10 Posts
On February 09 2013 00:02 DanieltheSeraph wrote: what protoss comp beats hellbat/viking/tank? terran mech give me a lot of trouble in PvT. If I build immortals, they just shoot at the hellbats in front. Zealots die instantly to hellbats. I tried going pure oracle/ void ray but it only slightly lengthens the game to make way for thors which annihilate all protoss air haven't really gotten an answer to this... | ||
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ant-1
Canada149 Posts
On February 20 2013 19:00 DanieltheSeraph wrote: haven't really gotten an answer to this... I haven't had a lot of experience against this, but in other threads people suggest tempest, positionning and slowly chipping away at their army. I agree it's very powerful ATM. Usually I die to this  | ||
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
It is the 2 base (or 3 base for zerg) timing pushes that break me. I have checked my macro and I am doing pretty well. The problem is that I react too slow. I think scouting is my problem. I just can not seem to understand when the enemy will attack me! For zerg. I really like to open with phoenix. Usually I win if he does not attack me. But if he does. It usually happens from his 3 base. He just barge towards my natural and bust through with Hydras and Roaches speedlings etc. For Terran. I die to 2 base pushes. Marauders, Marines + MVacs. And very often Hellbat+Marauders. I like to get storm early. But if I don't. I usually play bad because I am not comfortable with Colossus. T_T (I should really improve here) How do I see when the push is coming from my scouting? For Zerg and Terran. (Obviously I want to be able to react in time) For Zerg I need obs at his ramps? For Terran I need obs too? Is it something wrong with my infrastructure to make me unable to react? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8129 Posts
On February 20 2013 23:45 ant-1 wrote: I haven't had a lot of experience against this, but in other threads people suggest tempest, positionning and slowly chipping away at their army. I agree it's very powerful ATM. Usually I die to this skytoss seems to be the answer to everything right now. | ||
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DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
On February 21 2013 01:52 Excludos wrote: skytoss seems to be the answer to everything right now. Sadly feels like the only answer to anything as well. | ||
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ronpaul012
United States769 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:47 llIH wrote: Hello guys. I am really bad at playing protoss but I am really trying to improve. There is one thing that I struggle a lot with. When I go fast expo. Usually Gate, 1gas, core - Nexus. Without any problem so far. It is the 2 base (or 3 base for zerg) timing pushes that break me. I have checked my macro and I am doing pretty well. The problem is that I react too slow. I think scouting is my problem. I just can not seem to understand when the enemy will attack me! For zerg. I really like to open with phoenix. Usually I win if he does not attack me. But if he does. It usually happens from his 3 base. He just barge towards my natural and bust through with Hydras and Roaches speedlings etc. For Terran. I die to 2 base pushes. Marauders, Marines + MVacs. And very often Hellbat+Marauders. I like to get storm early. But if I don't. I usually play bad because I am not comfortable with Colossus. T_T (I should really improve here) How do I see when the push is coming from my scouting? For Zerg and Terran. (Obviously I want to be able to react in time) For Zerg I need obs at his ramps? For Terran I need obs too? Is it something wrong with my infrastructure to make me unable to react? If you're going to open pheonix, scouting him early and often is the key. Probes early to see what his production is and how many gases he's getting is good. Poke with a zealot/stalker early to get a sense, but be careful. Use your pheonix not just to lift and kill, but also scout. If you see an all-in coming, get cannons down, make sure you have a couple of sentries, and zealots for the zerglings. Lift up the roaches and you should be able to hold. Just know that if he's hitting you that early and you hold his economy is going to be pretty poor. If you can afford it, get 1-2 oracles. If you have enough apm, send those across quickly and harass. Chances are he will not have static defence to kill them, and you will destroy the small economy he has. 2 base pushes from terran can be annoying. Once again, scouting no 3rd orbital is huge. The key to this is getting solid force fields, and letting your aoe, be it storm or collusus, melt him. If you hold this look to counter if he's been re-enforcing, or possibly to expand if you don't think you can punish him in time. A huge positive to getting used to collusus is that you can get a 1-2 obs already into your build, without going out of your way. Also, if you dont like them just get 1-2 collusus and show them, then switch to ht. Terrans will over-produce on vikings then. Hope this helps. edit: Also, mothership core is OP. Make sure to use the correct ability when needed as well. (Use time against a terran ball, but the cannon against zerg if they're breaking into expansion) Normally this is just a judgement call. | ||
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QuackPocketDuck
410 Posts
Not sure if this only works at my level or actually strong but yea, thoughts? Reason I found some success with this build is that terrans tend to think no more oracles shall be made after they torret up or somehow kill the first Oracle. | ||
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
On February 21 2013 05:16 ronpaul012 wrote: If you're going to open pheonix, scouting him early and often is the key. Probes early to see what his production is and how many gases he's getting is good. Poke with a zealot/stalker early to get a sense, but be careful. Use your pheonix not just to lift and kill, but also scout. If you see an all-in coming, get cannons down, make sure you have a couple of sentries, and zealots for the zerglings. Lift up the roaches and you should be able to hold. Just know that if he's hitting you that early and you hold his economy is going to be pretty poor. If you can afford it, get 1-2 oracles. If you have enough apm, send those across quickly and harass. Chances are he will not have static defence to kill them, and you will destroy the small economy he has. 2 base pushes from terran can be annoying. Once again, scouting no 3rd orbital is huge. The key to this is getting solid force fields, and letting your aoe, be it storm or collusus, melt him. If you hold this look to counter if he's been re-enforcing, or possibly to expand if you don't think you can punish him in time. A huge positive to getting used to collusus is that you can get a 1-2 obs already into your build, without going out of your way. Also, if you dont like them just get 1-2 collusus and show them, then switch to ht. Terrans will over-produce on vikings then. Hope this helps. edit: Also, mothership core is OP. Make sure to use the correct ability when needed as well. (Use time against a terran ball, but the cannon against zerg if they're breaking into expansion) Normally this is just a judgement call. Hey! This helped a lot actually. Thank you! | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
I used it one game and it seemed cool because stalker deal kinda well with roaches and oracles massacre speedlings. also adding in some voidrays is basically always a good idea unless you play vs marines or pure hydra/muta. What I hate is that you still can't really defend vs any decent 2 base push without collossus or Storm :-( | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
Any suggestions in dealing with this Muta/Ling/Roach 3-Base by 14:00? I'm easily scouting it on time and I have a good 6-7 Phoenix up in time to deter the Mutas, but the problem is simply being able to mitigate damage that the Mutas deal to my economy while also squashing the Ling/Roach tearing apart my FFE wall with my army barely able to stop them. Even if I successfully save that, I still have the problem of the remax which simply devastates everything. | ||
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