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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
For now I'm just doing standard WoL stargate with either void ray first or 4 phoenixes -> robo -> third. My next question would be how you deal with swarm hosts with that build. Swarm host/hydra with overseers currently looks strong as FFFFFFFF to me if you go colossus as a followup. So... do you skip the robo completely and go twilight council instead? stargate -> twilight seems reaaaaally unstable to me. Stargate -> robo -> twilight + robo bay -> templar archives seems really slow. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
If you want to hallucinate something, pick the oracle. Since it won't shoot air he doesn't know whether it's a real one or not and might build a few spores too much. Hallucinating a 3-4 oracles and seeing the zerg player completely freak out is great fun btw... You can't really fight swarmhosts with ground units unless you have a critical amount of colossi or manage to get a good flank right after they spawned their set of locusts. I usually break the contain with voidrays and a bunch of phoenix to lift the queens while the voidrays gun down the swarmhosts. If they already have hydras though... Enough colossi to one-shot the locusts, I guess. Or storm, whatever you prefer. | ||
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener). Actually the immortal all in is still pretty viable I feel, especially with new mothership core. Time warp + FF + recall if it goes terribly wrong. Not sure what's changed, zerg changes didn't affect early game very much. | ||
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
On February 11 2013 18:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What's the generally safest way to open stargate in PvZ atm? Just started playing HotS myself. It feels like this surprise oracle thing is really strong but is it safe? You won't have a lot of scouting intel and I reckon that if they skip a roach warren and go straight into hydra you're pretty much dead. The funny thing is, if you send a hallucinated phoenix to see what tech they're going for, they'll actually assume it's a real phoenix and get spores up, lol. So do you hallucinate a phoenix and then make sure it dies to a queen so they'll cancel their spores again? LOL. For now I'm just doing standard WoL stargate with either void ray first or 4 phoenixes -> robo -> third. My next question would be how you deal with swarm hosts with that build. Swarm host/hydra with overseers currently looks strong as FFFFFFFF to me if you go colossus as a followup. So... do you skip the robo completely and go twilight council instead? stargate -> twilight seems reaaaaally unstable to me. Stargate -> robo -> twilight + robo bay -> templar archives seems really slow. Opening Oracles is risky from FFE, as it's easy to shut down with Queens and spores; it's usually fine to open Oracles if you're going Gateway-expand, as your tech comes earlier, but if going Stargate off of FFE, you should probably just open up with 5 Phoenixes and do the usual Ovie hunting and Queen/drone killing and save the Phoenixes for map control; make sure you keep them alive until you confirm he is NOT going Mutalisk, at the very least, because if he is you will need to CB out more and probably get +1 air weapons. Against Swarm Hosts (same as Hydras), regardless of how you opened, you MUST get a Robo Bay ASAP and rush to Colossus, as Colossi are the only real way to hold off Swarm Hosts; Colossi, Blink Stalkers, and of course Observers are your best friend here. I wouldn't recommend trying to deal with SHs any other way, unless you can somehow manage to get Carriers (ROFL). | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 11 2013 18:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What's the generally safest way to open stargate in PvZ atm? Just started playing HotS myself. It feels like this surprise oracle thing is really strong but is it safe? You won't have a lot of scouting intel and I reckon that if they skip a roach warren and go straight into hydra you're pretty much dead. The funny thing is, if you send a hallucinated phoenix to see what tech they're going for, they'll actually assume it's a real phoenix and get spores up, lol. So do you hallucinate a phoenix and then make sure it dies to a queen so they'll cancel their spores again? LOL. For now I'm just doing standard WoL stargate with either void ray first or 4 phoenixes -> robo -> third. My next question would be how you deal with swarm hosts with that build. Swarm host/hydra with overseers currently looks strong as FFFFFFFF to me if you go colossus as a followup. So... do you skip the robo completely and go twilight council instead? stargate -> twilight seems reaaaaally unstable to me. Stargate -> robo -> twilight + robo bay -> templar archives seems really slow. The more PvZ I play the more I'm favoring opening robotics tech and using hallucinate to scout. I can scout a standard macro spire timing (around 10:30) with a hallucinated scout and reactively make phoenix for that. I've been watching Minigun's stream as well and he seems to favor this while going into templar tech against roach-hydra/infestor based armies. Then adding the stargate tech later on (around the time he takes a 4th base) and mixing in void rays and tempests. One thing to keep in mind is that going for colossus the same way you could in WoL is problematic because while it's great to have a few colossus vs a swarm host contain they don't really scale in the lategame like they did thanks to vipers and ultras being so much better. TT1 discussed some of this on his twitter over at https://twitter.com/ROOT_TT1 while giving Mana some tips. I think a scary deathball will consist of immortals, archons, void rays, high templar and eventually some tempests/carriers with warp prisms to harass. An oracle also has untold potential in lategame since it's revelation can keep tabs on all the scary shit for an entire minute. And while it might still be possible to open stargate (phoenix harass being the better followup in general -- oralces are too easily shut down and don't gain their utility until much later than a squad of phoenix do) I'm still not convinced that it's a solid option because it has quite a bit of trouble vs hydra swarm host or nydus queen swarm host timings. In order to survive those you pretty much need an immediate robotics for colossus tech and like I mentioned earlier, colossus just aren't as great in the matchup anymore. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Thinking of a new double stargate build. The new skillray does pretty well vs roaches so I'm pretty sure you could take a third off a few initial phoenixes and then skillrays with gateway support. If they make hydras/mutas you can continue phoenix production and go kill them with a gateway/stargate attack later. Infestors are not imba anymore (I think, haven't seen them at all yet) so I think this might be viable. Might be a bit cheesy but don't think it's all in anymore. I'm also gonna try a wonky Tempest/DT strat. Because BW, damnit. Gonna be a 2 base all in and I'm gonna have one Tempest and one DT by 17 minutes or smth. Watch me win GSL | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 11 2013 22:38 DarkLordOlli wrote: Pretty much my thoughts. Thinking of a new double stargate build. The new skillray does pretty well vs roaches so I'm pretty sure you could take a third off a few initial phoenixes and then skillrays with gateway support. If they make hydras/mutas you can continue phoenix production and go kill them with a gateway/stargate attack later. Infestors are not imba anymore (I think, haven't seen them at all yet) so I think this might be viable. Might be a bit cheesy but don't think it's all in anymore. I'm also gonna try a wonky Tempest/DT strat. Because BW, damnit. Gonna be a 2 base all in and I'm gonna have one Tempest and one DT by 17 minutes or smth. Watch me win GSL I've seen white-ra screw around with some double-triple stargate builds but to be honest I think that style is not going to become standard or safe. Swarm hosts+ hydras are way too good vs it (I've seen earlier pushes without hydras and using nydus+ queens as well) and cannons are only going to hold for so long against swarm hosts. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On February 11 2013 22:54 Erik.TheRed wrote: I've seen white-ra screw around with some double-triple stargate builds but to be honest I think that style is not going to become standard or safe. Swarm hosts+ hydras are way too good vs it (I've seen earlier pushes without hydras and using nydus+ queens as well) and cannons are only going to hold for so long against swarm hosts. Well the surprising part about would be the time the phoenixes hit. I can make 4 phoenix off 2 stargates and they'll hit way quicker than the usual 4 phoenix off 1 stargate. It's veeery likely not safe vs everything or standard-material but it throws standard timings out the window, hits earlier when they likely don't have any defense up. I should always be able to get the queens + drones. And I feel like the earlier I hit them with that, the more damage it does. With that almost guaranteed damage I don't think zerg can tech up to hydra/swarm host + actually produce those units in significant numbers before I have an army that's good enough to fight it. The amount of roaches they can produce is limited as well + delayed through sniping queens so I don't think there's really any way for me to roll over and die if I do initial damage and transition in time. | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener). Thinking of batshit crazy 2 base all ins is the fun part of the new expansions! | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On February 12 2013 02:27 Havik_ wrote: Thinking of batshit crazy 2 base all ins is the fun part of the new expansions! +2 blink all in... with RECALL :O I'm the Bisu of HotS. Lol, can't wait for first GSL HotS season to see all the balls to the wall builds these guys are gonna do. | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
![[image loading]](http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Howling_Peak?file=HowlingPeaks_SC2-HotS_Art1.jpg) As toss how do you FFE in this map ? There are 2 openings and one is very vulnerable to baneling busts | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On February 12 2013 22:50 vahgar.r24 wrote: As toss how do you FFE in this map ? There are 2 openings and one is very vulnerable to baneling busts You veto it. Once you hit higher levels, zerg will never let you get to lategame, just swarm you with speedlings asap and make your life horrible. Alternatively you can become an expert in holding ling runbys and go a heavy gateway centric gate-expand. The map discussed is Howling Peaks btw, image is broken for me. Umm, yeah, It's pretty difficult to block the whole entrance, so what I've been trying to do with no success is the old" Nexus part of the wall"-wall or ramp-nexus wall. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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wajd
240 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On February 13 2013 00:38 wajd wrote: in PvP, what do you do when both players go for fast Oracles? Does it come down to whoever hits the other's mineral line first wins? I think what happens then is you stop making oracles and make phoenixes instead. And if he doesn't make phoenixes you win the game. I think is how it works. But yeah, it's kinda like a cloak banshee TvT vs cloak banshee. There's no rhyme or reason to it, the one who does more damage and takes less wins. And it's smart to make a defensive viking once you figure out what's going on. In this case, the phoenixes are your vikings. | ||
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ant-1
Canada149 Posts
@wajd: no, it's usually a draw, because both of you should have 2-3 stalkers in the mineral line before you can confirm the other player's tech anyway. It's kinda mandatory. Frankly oracles are being figured out pretty quickly by zergs and toss. Terran suffers the most (proxy stargate can be strong, especially since half of Ts go mech). | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On February 11 2013 21:28 Mikelius wrote: I really need to work on my mechanics, and my gm friend suggested I stick with 2 base all ins and focus on refining them as much as possible. Could anyone tell me if there are any mapped out 2 base all ins in HOTS I could use? (I think the immortal all in in pvz is not as strong anymore and the 6 gate colo timing vs T runs into trouble with a hellbat opener). Builds from WoL that can be slightly modified as all-ins for HotS: PvZ +1 Blink (a MsC increases the viability of this, cheaper dark shrine enables an easier DT transition) 7-Gate Warp Prism Drop (identical to WoL) Immortal/Sentry All-In (it's slightly weaker because of hydras and burrow micro possibilities, but still viable) Warp Prism DT Harass (slightly less all-innish) +1 4 Gate (again, not an all-in, but you can do a lot of damage with it) ^^ I've been adding a Stargate to the above and tried a Void Ray/MsC/Zealot/Sentry build that's a little more of an all-in, but I've never written down the exact timings, it gets to his third around 8:00 PvT (1 base all-ins are better, 2 base all-ins don't translate quite as well) 4 Gate Blink with MsC (start the twilight council before researching blink) Proxy Stargate 4 gate w/ void rays and/or oracles Proxy Robo 4 gate w/ Immortals Cannon Rush Proxy Gateway into Cannon Rush Proxy Gateways w Pylon Block to prevent a wall-off And, of course, there's always 3 gate pressure expands or 4 gate all-ins When you're planning these builds, it's frequently possible to learn a follow-up all-in to do in case the first all-in fails. And yes, I've tried most of these builds at least once in HotS. | ||
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Deckard.666
152 Posts
On February 13 2013 09:58 FlyingBeer wrote: 4 Gate Blink with MsC (start the twilight council before researching blink) Is there any other way? o.O | ||
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