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On February 05 2013 04:07 Drowsy wrote:
What's the best way to go double forge in pvt now? Is Nexus first more or less viable than in WoL pvt?
This answer is for both above posts:
I've started steering away from double forge in PvT for a while. As all 3 races have gotten a tad stronger, but protoss gateway units are still equally bad, it feels like you're forced now even more than before to get splash damage quickly. Nexus first still works like in WoL though, shouldn't be a huge problem. Watch for widow mines drops though. If you don't have detection by the time they arrive, you need to somehow stop them from entering your base completely. This is why I love starting stargate tech off one base before expanding. With a oracle you can quickly put pressure on him, and follow up with a couple of phoenix, which will stop drops effectively if you are active with them. Theres nothing that says you can't put them on patrol on popular dropping paths.
Feeling safe from drops and shenanigans, you need to be able to deal with his main army once his medivacs start hitting. Thats why you need to change to collosus rather quickly. From there you can go ht like in WoL, or to skytoss before adding those HTs (you really need those storms to deal with large numbers of bio. If he goes mech, then skytoss all the way is key).
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On February 04 2013 07:36 Zaphid wrote:
So what are your tips on dealing with the new medivacs ? Besides allining before they come into play ? Diamond/Master terrans, I have 150+ APM in SC2
I feel like stargate is the only viable way to play, because otherwise you can be attacked from any angle and he will never lose anything, because he can just pick up and zoom away. I usually maintain like 3-5 phoenixes for map control, but unless you get lucky and catch him long way away from your base, he can still run in and drop because they kill them so slowly. Blink stalkers don't really work unless he's flying over ground, because he can still turn around and not lose anything. Cannons are nice, but he just brings more medivacs and I'm screwed if I'm out of position.
My goto build has been stargate opening with reasonably fast expansion into robo+colo, but it seems to just not work against terrans who know what they are doing and don't just sit in their base. I'm not really using mothership core because I don't really see how it helps, maybe the recall ? The photon cannon is nice against ground pushes, but not drop harass.
I was like 100-200 master NA in Wings and Ive been playing HotS PvP (bio) almost exactly the same as in WoL. I just 1g expo into 3g and then a robo. Get my gasses at 630 at my nat and my colo den and forge before 7:20. I just play the exact same. Sure their medivacs are faster but so what? Just have stalkers ready, if you get out of position just recall to your nexus closest to the drop. Use time warp on the terran army, the dps loss from the T from slower concaves and the dps gain from your zealots actually hitting them is quite ricockulous. Just play it the same, its almost the same match up. Just remember to use your mothership core, its defensive capabilites, all 3 spells are amazing. Hit a 3-3 timing and win.
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On February 06 2013 01:43 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 07:36 Zaphid wrote:
So what are your tips on dealing with the new medivacs ? Besides allining before they come into play ? Diamond/Master terrans, I have 150+ APM in SC2
I feel like stargate is the only viable way to play, because otherwise you can be attacked from any angle and he will never lose anything, because he can just pick up and zoom away. I usually maintain like 3-5 phoenixes for map control, but unless you get lucky and catch him long way away from your base, he can still run in and drop because they kill them so slowly. Blink stalkers don't really work unless he's flying over ground, because he can still turn around and not lose anything. Cannons are nice, but he just brings more medivacs and I'm screwed if I'm out of position.
My goto build has been stargate opening with reasonably fast expansion into robo+colo, but it seems to just not work against terrans who know what they are doing and don't just sit in their base. I'm not really using mothership core because I don't really see how it helps, maybe the recall ? The photon cannon is nice against ground pushes, but not drop harass. I was like 100-200 master NA in Wings and Ive been playing HotS PvP (bio) almost exactly the same as in WoL. I just 1g expo into 3g and then a robo. Get my gasses at 630 at my nat and my colo den and forge before 7:20. I just play the exact same. Sure their medivacs are faster but so what? Just have stalkers ready, if you get out of position just recall to your nexus closest to the drop. Use time warp on the terran army, the dps loss from the T from slower concaves and the dps gain from your zealots actually hitting them is quite ricockulous. Just play it the same, its almost the same match up. Just remember to use your mothership core, its defensive capabilites, all 3 spells are amazing. Hit a 3-3 timing and win.
Thanks, I'll look into MsC more
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Can someone give me a rough BO for a voidray all-in PvT? Thanks.
EDIT: found one for WoL on liquipedia seems to work. On another note can someone give me a good 1 base all-in vs toss?
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Any other players having a hard time with the medivac drop with those speed boosters? I just played a game on Cloud Kingdom and I was running back and forth between my main and third for like 10 minutes, and just got drop harassed to death. And I actually had the better macro going.
Anybody else think this could become a major problem?
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I've got massive problems at PvP when my opponent went for a stargate play. I currently prefer archons (in other words: i am trying around during beta, currently with archons mixed in in my army) and it works pretty good.
But as I noticed in nearly every PvP when my opponent goes stargate with massing up voidrays (well, 6-8 are enough) it's hardl to counter. I would even say impossible. Thos Voidrays just crush my army in seconds. Massing up stalkers, sentries with guardian shields and even mass archons won't help.
Transitioning to stargate is a bad idea imho, because my enemy will have upgrade and production facility advantages. Any ideas?
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On February 06 2013 12:38 elfetido wrote:
I've got massive problems at PvP when my opponent went for a stargate play. I currently prefer archons (in other words: i am trying around during beta, currently with archons mixed in in my army) and it works pretty good.
But as I noticed in nearly every PvP when my opponent goes stargate with massing up voidrays (well, 6-8 are enough) it's hardl to counter. I would even say impossible. Thos Voidrays just crush my army in seconds. Massing up stalkers, sentries with guardian shields and even mass archons won't help.
Transitioning to stargate is a bad idea imho, because my enemy will have upgrade and production facility advantages. Any ideas?
I dont think its possible to win pvp lategame without going air yourself at this point.
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i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush  can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now 
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On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now
Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too 
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Can someone summarize the timings when you should make the MsC in all 3 matchups?
From what I've learned so far from streams only is that :
in PvP you make it after the Stargate/council/robo (a.k.a 1st t2 tech of choice)
in PvZ no idea when after FFE =D delay tech or make a MsC. I need insight on this
in PvT if 1g FE, after the 3g + robo.
Insights guys, insights. Give me some more !
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On February 06 2013 12:38 elfetido wrote:
I've got massive problems at PvP when my opponent went for a stargate play. I currently prefer archons (in other words: i am trying around during beta, currently with archons mixed in in my army) and it works pretty good.
But as I noticed in nearly every PvP when my opponent goes stargate with massing up voidrays (well, 6-8 are enough) it's hardl to counter. I would even say impossible. Thos Voidrays just crush my army in seconds. Massing up stalkers, sentries with guardian shields and even mass archons won't help.
Transitioning to stargate is a bad idea imho, because my enemy will have upgrade and production facility advantages. Any ideas?
you can't take on the void ray army on the first go, and what i mean is when they use the charge ability, the army dps is so high its almost impossible to win. So you would need to either engage the army and then immediately back off and regroup and attack again when the charge is on cooldown, or just keep going around the army and attacking places where the voidrays are not. Also vs mass void ray i really suggest getting storm, even getting the player to move his void rays to dodge the storms, they cannot attack and move at the same time, thus the dps of the army goes down just so they cuold dodge the storms. But, yea main thing, dont attack when they have the ability to use the charged attack.
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Has anyone Proxy 2 gated yet? how well does it work in HoTs? I know just normal 2 gate is weak in HoTS.
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On February 07 2013 14:31 JimTheCat wrote:
Has anyone Proxy 2 gated yet? how well does it work in HoTs? I know just normal 2 gate is weak in HoTS.
i mean it still works. I had one game where i got proxied but i just ran my probes until i got the msc out just to see if it would help. Theres just too many zealots at that point that, so going for it isn't really an option. You just defend it like you would normally.
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On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too
so it is basicly air wars instead of collosus wars now?
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On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too
I have been doing DT expand, which wins me a game here and there outright, then get charge and +1 and start +2 ground attack, cannons for your mineral line, if he continues to be annoying with phoenixes/oracles add HTs and do a timing off 8-9 gates with mass zealot/archon and just kill his expo/main nexus, because VRs do pitiful damage to zealots. Then you can just get blink and finish him off with mass stalker. Feedback the oracles and MsC. Unless he harasses you to hell with phoenixes you should be relatively fine, most people in diamond/low masters haven't figured out yet that you can wall off in PvP
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On February 07 2013 20:20 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too I have been doing DT expand, which wins me a game here and there outright, then get charge and +1 and start +2 ground attack, cannons for your mineral line, if he continues to be annoying with phoenixes/oracles add HTs and do a timing off 8-9 gates with mass zealot/archon and just kill his expo/main nexus, because VRs do pitiful damage to zealots. Then you can just get blink and finish him off with mass stalker. Feedback the oracles and MsC. Unless he harasses you to hell with phoenixes you should be relatively fine, most people in diamond/low masters haven't figured out yet that you can wall off in PvP
Yes, this can absolutely work. Not saying airtoss is the same as god mode. But if you let it get to lategame and you don't have air yourself, you're going to be in big trouble. I tried it once, where i ended up on 6 bases against his 3(later 4), since he had to play defensive untill he got his critical mass. Once maxed I just pounded him down with mass stalkers/archons/hts, traded ineffectively, and eventually managed to bring him down by throwing enough money at him
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On February 07 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 20:20 Zaphid wrote:On February 07 2013 05:10 Excludos wrote:On February 07 2013 01:28 TsGBruzze wrote:i recently switched to protoss and i am looking for some good build orders for protoss vs protoss in hots, i have no idea what i am doing and most of the time i dt rush can someone tell me how the meta works in hots right now Since skytoss is so incredibly strong in the current metagame, most toss start with exactly that nowadays. What I do is open with stargate off of one base, make 4-5 phoenixes, expand while I harass (scout dependant, obviously. You can't expo if he allins). Then start making voidrays, and eventually transition over to tempest. Remember to upgrade those air attacks and armor too I have been doing DT expand, which wins me a game here and there outright, then get charge and +1 and start +2 ground attack, cannons for your mineral line, if he continues to be annoying with phoenixes/oracles add HTs and do a timing off 8-9 gates with mass zealot/archon and just kill his expo/main nexus, because VRs do pitiful damage to zealots. Then you can just get blink and finish him off with mass stalker. Feedback the oracles and MsC. Unless he harasses you to hell with phoenixes you should be relatively fine, most people in diamond/low masters haven't figured out yet that you can wall off in PvP Yes, this can absolutely work. Not saying airtoss is the same as god mode. But if you let it get to lategame and you don't have air yourself, you're going to be in big trouble. I tried it once, where i ended up on 6 bases against his 3(later 4), since he had to play defensive untill he got his critical mass. Once maxed I just pounded him down with mass stalkers/archons/hts, traded ineffectively, and eventually managed to bring him down by throwing enough money at him
Yeah, I had a few games like that where I felt behind so I just turtled with stargates and won a few times where I honestly shouldn't, so I switched to doing the timing I mentioned. I'm interested how the meta develops, because I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being the strongest way to play, but due to variety of ways to exploit the transition you would see it only rarely.
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I just got the beta and while I'm not in a huge rush to drop WoL, I am excited to play this! I know Stargate is viable in all matchups now, but how as PvZ changed compared to WoL? That was the matchup giving me the most trouble in WoL.
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:27 Havik_ wrote:
I just got the beta and while I'm not in a huge rush to drop WoL, I am excited to play this! I know Stargate is viable in all matchups now, but how as PvZ changed compared to WoL? That was the matchup giving me the most trouble in WoL.
Well void rays are good and so are tempests so mass brood lord infestor is significantly weaker.
Mutas are better, so you need to react to them appropriately with active scouting and phoenix are the best response.
With recall you can push and go back home if need be.
But you still need to transition well to match their tech transitions or you lose. So overall its better, some would say protoss favoured but in the end transitions will be what really kills you in hots so if they are poor for you then you will have a hard time.
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Yeah, you often need 3-4 robos/stargates to accommodate lategame tech switches, because warpgate units are a bit weaker overall.
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EPT
