EPTI faced both of those variations where they sieged up and I felt helpless. This usually happens a little bit after I secure a 3rd base. How do I engage this tactic? Do I need to just tech straight to tempest asap and abuse the range advantage or is that going to take too long?
The (HotS) Protoss Help Me Thread Beta - Page 11
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
I faced both of those variations where they sieged up and I felt helpless. This usually happens a little bit after I secure a 3rd base. How do I engage this tactic? Do I need to just tech straight to tempest asap and abuse the range advantage or is that going to take too long? | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
On February 08 2013 11:58 .kv wrote: how do you deal with nydus+swarm hosts+overseer+hydralisk/corruptor I faced both of those variations where they sieged up and I felt helpless. This usually happens a little bit after I secure a 3rd base. How do I engage this tactic? Do I need to just tech straight to tempest asap and abuse the range advantage or is that going to take too long? Don't go for Tempest. They suck unkess specifically used to counter BLs. You want to be going fast Colossus against zswarm Host or Hydra, obviously with a strong backbone of gateway units. Since Zerflg has a very mobile composition and since we're discussing Nydus, you want maybe 2 observers out if going Robo to spot for Overlords/overseers, and if going Stargate, your Phoenixes or leftover Oracles need to be scouting blind spots for potential Nydus play. Also, you want pylons at the edges ofnyour bases so the perimeter doesn't have blind spots. Half the battle is denying lthe nydus in the first place, which requires good minimap awareness. Against Corruptor + Swarm Host or + Hydra, you need to use Forcefields to zone out Locusts/ Hydras from hitting your Stalkers while Colossi deal damage and your Stalkers focus down Corruptors. If you can abuse the range of Colossi in conjunction with forcefields you can prevent his army from attackkng you, either forcing him back or drawing corruptors into stalker fire. But as for the nydusnaspect, the ketly really is having everything covered with pylons, air units, and observers; as soon as an overseer pops in, or if you see the nydus start to pop, you immediately want to use your MSC to recall back and kill it asap. The MSC allows you to freely move out and be aggressive, while still being able to recall back to deal with any nydus aggression. For Swarm Hosts specifically, you need Blink Stalkers with your Colossi and Sentries. You want to time your Boink ontop of the Swarm Hosts to be right between Locust spawns; have the Colossi kill the Locusts (careful to micro your Observers not to lose them) andBlink on top of the Swarm Hosts and start picking them off before they soawn the next wave. If you time it just right, you should be able to force them to unburrowand try to run. | ||
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DanieltheSeraph
United States10 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On February 08 2013 17:11 Havik_ wrote: I've been getting nothing but cheesed so far on ladder. Certainly not making me excited for this game. Not surprised. Remember double proxy reaper cheese during beta, or 2 Thor-SCV infinite repair cheese? | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
On February 09 2013 02:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Not surprised. Remember double proxy reaper cheese during beta, or 2 Thor-SCV infinite repair cheese? I started playing in summer 2011, so I don't remember that. :p | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating. Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won. | ||
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AlphaDotCom
United States43 Posts
On February 09 2013 09:19 Ben... wrote: Stupid PvZ. I'm 8gating every game until mutas are figured out once and for all. I figured out the basic muta stuff but now there are these crazy transitions into mutas popping up and the feel so much harder to defend. It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating. Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won. U can get keep scouting with hallucination to see muta transition and go triple stargate phoenix to easily shut it down. From there go skytoss with storm which is broken vs zerg atm, for examples on this watch rootminigun stream vods. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On February 09 2013 09:19 Ben... wrote: Stupid PvZ. I'm 8gating every game until mutas are figured out once and for all. I figured out the basic muta stuff but now there are these crazy transitions into mutas popping up and the feel so much harder to defend. It is so frustrating because all my other matchups are 60%+ but PvZ is sitting at 30%. I figured out the way to deal with more regular muta builds but these gimmicky ones are so frustrating. Also holy murphy phoenixes against hellbat drops (opening with gate stargate gate into expand because I scouted him one-basing hardcore, as in putting a bunker at the top of his ramp, which is dumb because it is such an easy tell). I just shut one of those drops down HARD with 4 phoenixes, though I wasn't playing well because I was really badly on tilt because of 2 PvZ mass muta games in a row. But wow that worked well. Obviously the medivac immediately gets sniped but then you can stop the hellbats long enough with lifting to get your ground forces there and the probes at a safe distance. It was even more satisfying because the guy sent me a bunch of angry messages after the game. I really am starting to like the flexibility of opening stargate because if he opens 1rax expand I can just get oracle instead and harass. I have been doing okay with 1gate expand but this really helps with all the new medivac drops people are doing. I had a guy doing mine drops too which actually managed to kill like 15 probes but he sucked so i still won. what i found what really helped me out vs muta is get that oracle out there and get revelation(the aoe vision) on the pack of mutas. The oracle is faster than the mutas so it isnt that difficult to get the aoe vision on them. Now you have vision of the pack for a whole minute. If he is too far out you can attempt to expand and push out and whenever you see him try to harass you just simply have pre emptive defensive measures(nexus cannon msc blink stalkers storm the whole crew) waiting for him. THe mutas will most likely try to bait but you cant be too careful anyway. So whenever the aoe wears off you keep placing revelation on the mutas. W/o revelation, its so hard to spread out your units and then he just simply commits to one base and overruns your units. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On February 08 2013 22:47 LF[Media] wrote: Don't go for Tempest. They suck unkess specifically used to counter BLs. You want to be going fast Colossus against zswarm Host or Hydra, obviously with a strong backbone of gateway units. Since Zerflg has a very mobile composition and since we're discussing Nydus, you want maybe 2 observers out if going Robo to spot for Overlords/overseers, and if going Stargate, your Phoenixes or leftover Oracles need to be scouting blind spots for potential Nydus play. Also, you want pylons at the edges ofnyour bases so the perimeter doesn't have blind spots. Half the battle is denying lthe nydus in the first place, which requires good minimap awareness. Against Corruptor + Swarm Host or + Hydra, you need to use Forcefields to zone out Locusts/ Hydras from hitting your Stalkers while Colossi deal damage and your Stalkers focus down Corruptors. If you can abuse the range of Colossi in conjunction with forcefields you can prevent his army from attackkng you, either forcing him back or drawing corruptors into stalker fire. But as for the nydusnaspect, the ketly really is having everything covered with pylons, air units, and observers; as soon as an overseer pops in, or if you see the nydus start to pop, you immediately want to use your MSC to recall back and kill it asap. The MSC allows you to freely move out and be aggressive, while still being able to recall back to deal with any nydus aggression. For Swarm Hosts specifically, you need Blink Stalkers with your Colossi and Sentries. You want to time your Boink ontop of the Swarm Hosts to be right between Locust spawns; have the Colossi kill the Locusts (careful to micro your Observers not to lose them) andBlink on top of the Swarm Hosts and start picking them off before they soawn the next wave. If you time it just right, you should be able to force them to unburrowand try to run. thanks for the help but I'm referring to a Nydus outside my base rather in my base...I can't really see where the nydus is going to be planted out there but yeah I'm just having a hard time maintaining detection b/c of the corruptors hovering over the swarm hosts with an overseer while the locusts eventually breaks my wall (for example on daybreak at my 3rd...I tend to make a gateway wall and it'll be broken down and just swarm of locusts come...this variation tends to influence a lot of queens as well which makes it even harder b/c of transfuse) | ||
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JimTheCat
Canada44 Posts
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Perfi
Poland349 Posts
On February 09 2013 14:37 recklessfire wrote: what i found what really helped me out vs muta is get that oracle out there and get revelation(the aoe vision) on the pack of mutas. The oracle is faster than the mutas so it isnt that difficult to get the aoe vision on them. Now you have vision of the pack for a whole minute. If he is too far out you can attempt to expand and push out and whenever you see him try to harass you just simply have pre emptive defensive measures(nexus cannon msc blink stalkers storm the whole crew) waiting for him. THe mutas will most likely try to bait but you cant be too careful anyway. So whenever the aoe wears off you keep placing revelation on the mutas. W/o revelation, its so hard to spread out your units and then he just simply commits to one base and overruns your units. No, the oracle is slower than the mutalisk. 3.375 speed on the oracle, 4 on the mutalisk. You're going to have to sacrifice the oracle, but I suppose it can buy you some time. Mutas have a 0.625 speed lead on the Oracle; the range on Revelation is 9, and the mutalisk range is 3. With the following assumptions:
Then it's going to take him 9,6 seconds to catch up to the oracle and get close enough to take it down. In reality you'll have some more time due to the assumptions we took there. If you're like 35 tiles away (should be roughly the same distance a screen's width on 1680x1050, if I'm not mistaken) from your anti air force, you should be able to save the oracle or force some muta losses if they decide to go for it. Either way, that oracle's going to come in handy. Since the energy regen rate is 0.5625 (datamined from the editor) and you need 75 mana for a Revelation, that's going to give you one Revelation per 133 + 1/3 seconds. Spend 300 gas on two Oracles and you might be able to get constant vision on the muta pack, if everything goes well. @Ben: Cool idea with the phoenixes against the hellbat drop, I'll definitely have to check it out. Thanks! | ||
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Flamm
Germany36 Posts
Any suggestions on what to do? | ||
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synd
Bulgaria586 Posts
On February 09 2013 19:38 Flamm wrote: Anyone knows how to counter the mech builds of terran? Even if I defend vs the hellbat drop nicely, I have problems finding a proper composition vs his mech (mines,thors,tanks,widows,hellbats,medvac,vikings). Any suggestions on what to do? http://bg.twitch.tv/eghuk/b/364249082 Watch this VOD | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 11 2013 12:46 Havik_ wrote: I really don't get this game at all. So the best way to win now is to turtle and get 200/200 of Skytoss, Templar? Its a bummer to me how they buff skytoss, but give other races tools to handle everything else better so Protoss is forced to go air now? I don't know. I'd love to see tournament gameplay for hots to help me figure this out, because IDK what to do now. I think I'll just keep doing WoL builds for now. I think that there is an emphasis on lategame turtle skytoss/templar right now because it's both easily accessible and familiar to people who played WoL -- but I really don't think that will remain the only legit way to play macro protoss. The mothership core opens up a bunch of faux all-in timings (for both ground and air troops) and the new air units have much more synergy with each other in lower numbers. A small squad of void rays and oracles with a mothership core could do a lot of damage in the hands of a skilled player. Phoenix and DTs are also better options for midgame harass and that kind of stuff will let a skilled player utilize his multitask. I think over time we're going to see a lot more PvZs looking like old-school TvZs, but of course only time will truly tell (a major balance/design change could be only days away) | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
I have to agree with Erik on that. Skytoss is the strongest lategame army for us and it's the only one that gives us some sort of map control in all three matchups. The style that is used to get to that army is essentially the same as playing WoL PvZ so we kinda know already what we need to do. With the current, very fragile, meta in HotS you either go for a 1base all-in against protoss/terran or turtle up until you get your very strong ultra lategame skytoss army. Some of the core problems with the protoss mechanics haven't changed at all with Hots. You still can't walk across the map in either PvT or PvZ during the early- and mid-game without being kinda all-in(ish). Terran drops have become even more frightening as hellbats beat up your gateway units in both cost and supply. Playing against someone going bio has not really changed at all from your point of view. Their drops are harder to deflect, but that's about all if you don't run into someone who mixes up his bio with some hellbats. Playing against mech is really awkward. You always have to leave a good chunk of units behind in case of hellbat or widowmine drops as cannons alone can not handle them. You, on the other hand, can not really attack into a meching player who is turtling. The only way that I know of attacking into a meching player are 1base all-ins (blink + MsC and Voidrays + Gateways). And since hellbat/siegetank/thor counter everything you could field on the ground your best bet is to turtle up aswell and directly tech into skytoss. I usually always build 3-5 phoenix during the midgame to intercept drops, gain map control and do some harassing. Oracles are only really useful as a scouting unit in the lategame when army positioning is key. In PvP you have that strange foodchain of phoenix > voidray > robo units > gateway units that applies to every game that is not a 1base all-in. While the counter to colossi in WoL was "more colossi" it has completely changed in HotS. Voidrays obliterate everything that comes out of the robo. Rain vs. Flying is a good example where Rain triumphed because he had a larger voidray count in the lategame. But there is one thing that counters voidrays: phoenix. So in order to get the better lategame composition you first need to establish air dominance. If both go for the same route and none is playing an all-in off of 1 base it usually ends in a mass phoenix vs. mass phoenix battle where the winner of that takes the game. So yeah, skytoss again. The general dynamic of PvZ has not really changed that much in HotS. You still can't really move across the map without commiting to it, the MsC is too fragile to rely on. Zerg ground army is much more potent though. Hydras are faster, ultras are better, we don't have a realy ground to ground anwer to swarmhosts and vipers can abduct our colossi. Mutas received a speed and regen buff aswell which makes dealing with them even harder if you don't have phoenix. So you either do your enhanced soultrain all-in - which gets shut down by swarmhosts pretty hard btw. - or you turtle up behind a wall of cannons and tech to your best lategame army, Skytoss. Phoenix give you map control until he has a bunch of infestors out and they usuall shut down the muta tech. Tempests give you the ability to siege his bases and force engagements. Besides, with the buffs that the Zerg ground army received there really is no reason to build up your own ground army. Swarmhosts can't shoot air and neither can ultralisks. So yeah, overall there is not much reason to not play skytoss in almost every matchup except for terrans going bio. Part of that is that skytoss is arguably the strongest lategame composition that all 3 races have - kinda like the broodlord infestor. I would actually agree with that statement but there really is not much you can do except completely rebalance and design the protoss race. Our ground army received no buffs at all with HotS while the other races got new and shiny toys that appear to be made to counter our ground deathball. Although most people don't really care about team matches those things that I mentioned above are a reason why protoss has huge problems in team matches. All the new HotS 2vs2 maps have wide open expansions that are almost impossible to hold and it's really rare that you get to more than 2 bases. With our ground army being lackluster and skytoss requiring some hardcore economy to produce we are essentially forced to either 1-base all-in or turtle on 2 bases until they are mined out to then do a huge ass push across the whole map. | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
Very well put. The either all in or turtle strategy choices will make Protoss easy for the first couple months of this game, however it will be boring as hell and I imagine Skytoss will get nerfed shortly after release. I just have that feeling about it. The top two things I would have loved to see Protoss get with this expansion they didn't get at all. Buffed gateway units and/or a new gateway unit on the Twilight Council(just the council itself, not the Templar tech). Although I haven't played against it yet, I find it puzzling as to why they would make Terran drops stronger with the medivac boost hellbats and Widow mines while also buffing mutas and don't give Protoss any other option other than to open air. The only bright side to all of this is that instead of having to open Robo every game in WoL, you now have to open Stargate in every game in HoTS. I sure as hell am not paying $40 for this game though. I'll wait for a sale or just stick to WoL for a bit longer and watch tournaments. Its a shame because the new features they've added are incredible. Unranked MM, resume from replay, etc. | ||
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