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Not sure if heart of the swarm questions are being asked in here but shouldn't matter. im asking for a little advice on my engagements and maybe some other areas of my game that i can improve. take it, im pretty good at this game i just want some outside criticism.
the idea of MY build: its a oracle/msc rush. i get the msc out super fast in time to deal with any reapers, oracles either let me harass or in this particular replay, contain. they also allow me to be safe vs any early pressure a terran can throw at me. coupled with nexus cannon theyre super strong defensively in the early game. if it wasn't for having a high templar reserve at each base i probably would have died to each his counter attacks.
in this pvt despite being so far ahead i am rolled in each fight. some of the things i think i should have done:
- scouted his fast third cc and placed mine maybe 2-3 minutes earlier than i originally did
- should have hit a timing before ghosts when i had an upgrade advantage
- i think i need more gateways
- i struggle hard vs mass ghosts im not entirely sure how to deal with them
i felt like i was outmacroing him, but losing every engagement. if he doesnt lose everything so cost inefficiently at the end of the game im not sure if the game would have went in my favor. if a terran is going ~20 ghosts, heavy marines should i be abandoning the usual pvt composition? seems like i should have went for a heavy stalker count this game rather than the usual heavy zealot composition what do you think?
any criticism would be lovely! trying to grow as a player.
http://drop.sc/307111
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On February 26 2013 03:12 rEalGuapo wrote:
Is there any way to win against good Zergs other than turtle stargate shit?
I win every game with that even against GMs or professionals but it is just so damn boring.. Sit on 2 bases, get void rays, sit on 3 bases, get carriers, sit on 4 and max a-move+storm = gg..
But I feel like the thread of swarmhosts makes any ground army that doesn't involve fast colossi terrible, Colossi on the other hand also force some sort of turtle play..
I tried Blinkstalker Sentry Immortal but it just sucks against Swarm Hosts...
Ideas?
I've been experimenting with 1-base gateway pressure again, focused on the idea that Blizzard made the MSC to spice up early game action. For me this takes the form of Gate, Cyber => 2x Zealot and MSC Poke and set up proxy pylon => Go up to 3gate => Expand and tech. The zealot poke will at least be even and can help you scout Zerg's speed timing and base defenses. If the zerg is overreacting, I choose not to warp in more units and just go home and tech for a timing to put pressure on the third (still figuring this out, right now I'm favoring phoenix play into robo). If the zerg doesn't make spines, you can do a lot of damage with zealot/sentry and recall out when he commits heavily to defense.
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Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote:
Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
I'm far from as good as a lot of the posters here, so I'm hoping some of the others offer advice, but I found that a really solid counter to this style of play is warp prism. Assuming you can get one out on the map, his army is not very mobile. Assuming he doesn't see it coming you may be able to do some damage, and depending on if he's maxed out even force some retreat. If you're just using the standard mass zealots with the warp prism, you won't lose any gas for the high tier units.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote:
Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
Air, air, and air. Swarm hosts are massievely op when they get in large numbers, and impossible to beat if they have other stuff supporting them and perhaps a viper or two (your collosus will just get pulled in and annihilated). Their only weakness is that they don't shoot up, and happily toss air have been reciving major buffs from WoL to HoTS. So you will have to scout properly, and try to find out when its safe to stop collosus to keep yourself alive vs those hydras and roaches, and switch over to voidrays, tempest and carriers.
Thats the easiest way at least by far.
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Austria24422 Posts
Anybody tried chargelot/archon vs 3 base hydra/swarm host? I'm thinking a PvT-esque style with robo, twilight council and +1 armor instead of attack. QXC was playing around in a unit tester during a recent SotG and said archons deal better with locusts than colossi.
I think it could work, chargelot/archon is also good against hydras. So with enough archons to kill locusts quickly, the composition should have the punch to kill hydra/swarm host before the numbers get too high. It's also not halted by an air transition by zerg, which in turns should allow yourself to transition into air more smoothly since zerg won't be making corruptors early.
The robo provides observers and ALSO: warp prisms. Which I feel is the big weakness of swarm hosts. They're expensive and they can only really focus on attacking/defending one place at a time. So zerg won't have a big army to split up an defend with. Also, the possibility to transition to colossi or pump out immortals if zerg cuts hydras against your zealot/archon and produces roaches.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote:
Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
I'm not sure it was figured out yet. The 2-base contain version is easy to fight with a colossus rush, because they will not have corruptors or vipers in time. This version is only effective if you're caught off guard, and I suspect it will disappear quite soon.
The other versions, less rushy, are actually harder to deal with. You have to not engage directly on the zerg's term. Warp prism, blink stalkers are good. To kill the hosts themselves, colossi are an option, but beware of corruptors or vipers of course. HTs are not very good because you are on a timer. Air can work, but it's not a sure thing because there will be very strong anti-air. You have to chip away at the swarm hosts without letting your air being demolished by hydra or corruptors.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote:
Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
I concur with the Warp Prism comments. I have also found that if you get a utility (read: not a rush) Dark Shrine you can buy a lot of time to deal with Zerg's composition. Best to do air openers and get that HT/Tempest combo, getting robo for obs and prisms, and a utility DShrine I think.
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So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.=
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On February 28 2013 22:05 Sherklok wrote:
So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.=
Kind of obvious.. but... Voidray/Tempest/HT, no?
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On February 28 2013 22:05 Sherklok wrote:
So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.=
Do not let them come to 200. 2 or 3 robos, pump immortals and some colossi. Attack with 4 colo, 12 immos, zealots. Colo will wipe out hellbats then die to vikings, immo will clean the floor. Some stalkers as reinforcement, take fourth (you expand agressively against mech, right?). Or kill them outright.
Or you can go the mass air route but yeah against viking + thors that's a very long game of chipping away at their army from a tempest distance.
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On February 28 2013 22:38 uLysSeS1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 22:05 Sherklok wrote:
So the one thing I've been struggle with is PvT mech. It feels so much like BL/ infestor in Wol to me. If they get to hellbat/Thor/ viking I feel as if its unbeatable. In my theory crafting time (at work) I've been trying to figure out how to beat it but I feel there are no obvious timings to hit ESP since widow mines and siege tanks ( starting with siege) usually I see turrets as well. It's my one place where I struggle. I'm at a loss for how to win. If they turtle hard I feel so lost. If they do a mid game push or do a 1/1/1 push into mech I'm fine. And it's fairly easy to beat but turtle mech is a royal pain =.= Kind of obvious.. but... Voidray/Tempest/HT, no?
Rushing to that? Doesn't really work to well if it gets to late game I'm sure that's the best transition eventually but early on the Thor + Vikings can just wreck it unless you have flawless control.
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Can anyone provide a crash course for a fellow Zealot that took 3 months off and played none of the beta?
I've heard 3gate MsC builds are strong for early game pressure, and obviously that Skytoss is really good, but I'm wondering if there's a concise "here's the shit you gotta know for HotS, bro" guide.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 28 2013 23:39 Crownlol wrote:
Can anyone provide a crash course for a fellow Zealot that took 3 months off and played none of the beta?
I've heard 3gate MsC builds are strong for early game pressure, and obviously that Skytoss is really good, but I'm wondering if there's a concise "here's the shit you gotta know for HotS, bro" guide.
1) and most importantly! You have one day left, lol. So I recommend just go play the shit outta it and try everything one last time.
PvP is random and mostly about air control atm.
PvZ is weird. Swarm hosts and mutas are good. Skytoss with HT support wins unless you screw up.
PvT is the most similar to WoL. If terran opens gas, you're generally behind though because you can't know exactly what they're doing and they can use that advantage to cut corners. If you didn't have good drop defense in WoL you're gonna hate new medivacs.
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hey,
First of all, sorry for my bad english
I am a low Master Zerg on EU-Server WoL and I want to switch my Race from Zerg to Protoss because Protoss makes mutch more fun for me in the Beta and I never tryed an other Race then Zerg before.
Now with the new SC-Adoon I want to make the switch but my macro and general knowledge about toss is horrible. For this reason I want to start with a 2 base All-in for every mu to become a better understanding for Protoss.
I looked mutch into pro streams but dont really find what i am searching for, now i ask you my Tossfriends can you give some Tips, VoD's or BO's about HotS 2Base Toss ?
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Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes).
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On March 02 2013 03:08 TheDougler wrote:
Has anyone found any PvP openers that feel really "safe" in HoTS?
Like, in WoL you could kind of metagame PvP pretty hard by going Stargate when Robo was popular, or robo when various 3-4gate aggression was popular.
Now I'm losing to really weird stuff in HoTS and I'm wondering if there's a safe way to open while the meta settles down. In the late game I generally win as skytoss has always been my wheelhouse (<3 phoenixes).
If you do http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tinman_11_Gate_into_3_Gate_Pressure_(vs._Protoss) you can usually throw your opponents off or win the game outright, provided you have that bo practiced and memorized (no joke, doing it over 100 times in competitive matches). Obviously it's not an economical build, but you can either do damage or force sentries that allow you to prepare for things that you would call "weird stuff," which in my book usually means unit-specific rushes. I would give you beta replays of me vs GM Protosses, but they wouldn't work :p
This is a WoL replay from about 6 months ago; build order is the same. If anything, this 3 gate is more effective since Ps sometimes elect to get an early msc in PvP, which is pretty ineffective vs stalkers:
http://drop.sc/244915
Note: it's pretty easy to unwittingly put yourself all-in with this build, be careful.
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On February 27 2013 04:23 Supah wrote:
Swarm Host/Corruptor/Hydra/Overseer
How the hell am I supposed to stop that? You need so many Colossus to deal with the little swarms, it's a gigantic gas sink. What's the general idea to stopping that or fighting it? Think Anigta, control of the center..
Pfft I dont know if stargate is the answer. I think you need a strong mobile force to deal with this. Something that can kill spine crawlers and dont get hit by corruptors. When ever I play vs this (I hit GMs and shit all the time in hots) I go archon immo blink and charge. I trade bases and dont deal with the locus until I can flank the swarm host. This comp owns spine crawlers, so you can easily kill bases if they attack you. Fighting locust always feels like suicide.
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Hey tossbros,
I've been playing a bit of HotS, and the one unit I can't figure out how to deal with is the Viper.
I don't have a replay handy, so I'll describe my most recent loss to it - game started out as normal (I do a nexus first into gateway/cyber/forge -> cannon -> 4 gateway pressure, very effective) and during the pressure I will send a hallucinated phoenix into their main/natural/3rd to get a FULL scout of my opponent, so I can transition to the midgame and lategame effectively.
In the game, my phoenix scouted a spire JUST starting... so I dropped 2 stargates. Once he saw I scouted his spire, he dropped a hydra den and switched to hydras. Very quickly afterwards I was putting pressure on his 3rd and saw that he had the hydras at this point, so I dropped a robo bay immediately once I realized there were no mutalisks, while I harassed his overlords and mineral lines with the 4 phoenix I had pumped out. Eventually he came to my 3rd with a ball of hydralisks and 5 vipers... and just pulled my 4 colossus in. I have no clue what I should have done. I didn't have enough phoenix to kill the Vipers (who were protected by hydras anyways), and a few templar would have cost about the same amount of gas as those 4 colossus... and worst of all I have to decide between feedbacking the Vipers or storming his army (which he can split). It seems like Vipers make Colossus irrelevant. Anyone have any ideas what they would've done in my situation?
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EPT
