EPTThe (HotS) Protoss Help Me Thread Beta - Page 2
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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nonsequitur
384 Posts
On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote: Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote: Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote: Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. The other build I find quite strong is: FFE -> 4Gate +1 pressure -> Void Rays while taking third -> Skytoss Pretty cool, the 4Gate +1 will deal immense damage to a Muta player without Roach warrant (winning the game right there) The Void Rays will deal with a Roach counter attack. Stargates are pretty nice to have against Mutas. Skytoss seems to destroy Zergs right now. VR so good! | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote: Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. The other build I find quite strong is: FFE -> 4Gate +1 pressure -> Void Rays while taking third -> Skytoss Pretty cool, the 4Gate +1 will deal immense damage to a Muta player without Roach warrant (winning the game right there) The Void Rays will deal with a Roach counter attack. Stargates are pretty nice to have against Mutas. Skytoss seems to destroy Zergs right now. VR so good! i just got beta few days ago and already this is what im starting to lean towards. The old 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure build with a third behind it. In wol it used to be a bit of a problem trying to take a fast third with air superiority as with enough roaches and lings you could basically just ignore the air units, but with the airtoss buff and mothership core, I think fast thirds off of stargate seem a lot more safe. although I get a robo anyway because playing airtoss with some templar support, you bank so many minerals that making tonnes of warp prisms and suiciding zealots is really useful. It's pretty much the rsvp style of stalkerless (was it colrsvp or kxcd?) pvz that i remember reading about and trying before in wol, but now seems even stronger with new air units. if the other player is not going muta how many oracles do you make? I haven't played enough to judge the different cost-effectiveness of different skytoss compositions, do you want oracles versus hydra, or do you just make enough oracles to harrass and then make void rays. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3567 Posts
I tried collossi but still lost the two games I m refering to. Granted I had a lot of mismanagement but still the new hydralisk can close in much faster and the guy I played with was very good at surrounding me/ attacking me in the middle of the map, thereby nullyfying my FF use. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 22 2012 00:30 ThePianoDentist wrote: i just got beta few days ago and already this is what im starting to lean towards. The old 4 gate +1 zealot voidray pressure build with a third behind it. In wol it used to be a bit of a problem trying to take a fast third with air superiority as with enough roaches and lings you could basically just ignore the air units, but with the airtoss buff and mothership core, I think fast thirds off of stargate seem a lot more safe. although I get a robo anyway because playing airtoss with some templar support, you bank so many minerals that making tonnes of warp prisms and suiciding zealots is really useful. It's pretty much the rsvp style of stalkerless (was it colrsvp or kxcd?) pvz that i remember reading about and trying before in wol, but now seems even stronger with new air units. if the other player is not going muta how many oracles do you make? I haven't played enough to judge the different cost-effectiveness of different skytoss compositions, do you want oracles versus hydra, or do you just make enough oracles to harrass and then make void rays. I really think if you want Skytoss to work you need to use the excess minerals to build Cannons. I usually get 3 Oracles off of 1 Stargate and try not to lose them. If you make more Oracles and Zerg gets extra Queens and Spores he can kill you while you try to take the third. That obviously also depends on how much damage the first push did. Also I think Air + Warp Prisms should not work. Zerg will get Infestor/Hydra Corruptor and Spores, that will shut down WP harass. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 22 2012 01:27 WGT-Baal wrote: Assuming you open with a gate expand and a double stargate for oracle harass (pretty good to deny a 3rd or kill it) and transition into skytoss, if the Zerg reacts by mass hydras, what do you do? Storms? I tried collossi but still lost the two games I m refering to. Granted I had a lot of mismanagement but still the new hydralisk can close in much faster and the guy I played with was very good at surrounding me/ attacking me in the middle of the map, thereby nullyfying my FF use. I tried double Stargate Oracle. A good Zerg will just get a lot of Spores and then kill you. I know it is a lot of fun when it works but in the long run that will not be viable. I get only 3 Oracles, scout with halluc Phoenix and try to get fast Carriers with lots of Cannons at the attack path. (map dependent but mostly at third) I get 6-8 VRs off of 2 and then 3 Stargates while building fleet beacon. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On December 22 2012 05:06 rEalGuapo wrote: I tried double Stargate Oracle. A good Zerg will just get a lot of Spores and then kill you. I know it is a lot of fun when it works but in the long run that will not be viable. I get only 3 Oracles, scout with halluc Phoenix and try to get fast Carriers with lots of Cannons at the attack path. (map dependent but mostly at third) I get 6-8 VRs off of 2 and then 3 Stargates while building fleet beacon. do you get templar tech before late game, or do you just try and hold off hydras with the air and mass cannon? On December 22 2012 05:03 rEalGuapo wrote: I really think if you want Skytoss to work you need to use the excess minerals to build Cannons. I usually get 3 Oracles off of 1 Stargate and try not to lose them. If you make more Oracles and Zerg gets extra Queens and Spores he can kill you while you try to take the third. That obviously also depends on how much damage the first push did. Also I think Air + Warp Prisms should not work. Zerg will get Infestor/Hydra Corruptor and Spores, that will shut down WP harass. I think its really hard for zerg to have every angle covered, theres almost always a way in thats not covered by a spore, and it's also the indirect damage the warp prism does. If he has his hydras, infestors, corrupters in his base trying to defend me just burning excess minerals, then he can't be attacking me. Also I am of the opinion that in any matchup once you are on 3 bases you should always have a warp prism just to able to make any sudden attack you want to do as strong as possible with fast reinforcements (e.g. if your opponent attacks into you and loses and you go counter), but thats just how i like to play. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
do you get templar tech before late game, or do you just try and hold off hydras with the air and mass cannon? You defenitely want to get Templars eventually the faster the better. For me that really depends on the game and how far ahead/behind I feel as well as how I think my opponent will play. I think its really hard for zerg to have every angle covered, theres almost always a way in thats not covered by a spore, and it's also the indirect damage the warp prism does. If he has his hydras, infestors, corrupters in his base trying to defend me just burning excess minerals, then he can't be attacking me. Also I am of the opinion that in any matchup once you are on 3 bases you should always have a warp prism just to able to make any sudden attack you want to do as strong as possible with fast reinforcements (e.g. if your opponent attacks into you and loses and you go counter), but thats just how i like to play. Yeah, I just walk my Zealots into his expansions. But I mostly use that to distract and clear creep in the middle etc. Still, 2 patrolling Corruptors will shut down WP. And I also don't want to give Zerg any reason to get Corruptors  But I just started playing hots again so maybe I will incorporate that lateron. | ||
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jhlee820
149 Posts
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Basileus
United States103 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On December 22 2012 15:19 jhlee820 wrote: Is anyone else having trouble with the new medivac drops? I'm getting ripped in pieces because of those supercharged medivacs. I'd appreciate any tips on stopping em. Should I just mass cannons and have a templar at each basse? Faster Medivacs basically means that you have less time to react. You can either practice watching the minimap some more or you need more vision. Other than that the drops are exactly the same until the medivac upgrade. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
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nonsequitur
384 Posts
On December 23 2012 07:30 rEalGuapo wrote: Does anybody have a good way to FFE on howling peak or should I just gateway expand in PvZ there? You can FFE on Howling Peak by making your wall at the nexus but I just veto that map along with Star Station. Getting a 3rd on Star Station is almost impossible due to how wide open it is. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
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Hiwashi
United States43 Posts
The problem, mostly vs Zerg is if I robo they juts roll me over with their superior economy before I can get a good composition out. If I play safe, I get they ( Z ) take the map, if I play aggressive they always seem to have just enough to hold the old immortal sentry atk on 3rd. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On December 27 2012 02:14 Hiwashi wrote: What openings are you guys doing in PvZ and PvP? I feel like if I dont robo, I auto lose most of my games. The problem, mostly vs Zerg is if I robo they juts roll me over with their superior economy before I can get a good composition out. If I play safe, I get they ( Z ) take the map, if I play aggressive they always seem to have just enough to hold the old immortal sentry atk on 3rd. PvP: FXOz's 3gate Pressure (all-in variant) PvZ: FFE, +1 Zealots/Oracle --> fast third --> Tempest/Void Ray --> Templar | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On December 09 2012 23:51 Decendos wrote: has anybody tested mass oracle play + zealot HT support vs MMM? just did some tests and it is insanely strong if you combine timewarp + storm + 29 DPS to light units + zealots connecting way better thanks to timewarp. would love to see this work ^^ Yes, playing at WoL masters level, this is incredibly hard to fight effectively. If i play Terran, i'd normally lose because you will need impeccable ghost control. The priority here is to drain oracle energy and because they can't be sniped, landing emps on a unit that almost moves as fast a phoenix is a challenge. Either i land my emps, remove their energy for timewarp or watch my units die because if the limited micro (slow movespeed). Also, while the caduceus reactor is great, however, the sheer AOE of a typical collossus&ht supported chargelot ball is amplied because storms now do almost up to 60 dmg, mitigating the extra benefits of that upgrade. Sniping Hts are harder as well since oracles can timewarp forward ghosts which instantly die to a small group of forward zealots, so in a typical game, doing this old maneuver is far more riskier, unless you pray the protoss does not have observers to detect cloaked ghosts. My typical build follows the WoL meta of TvP with emphasis on faster upgrades (cc 1st into 3 rax + 2x ENG) with bulk of my first 9 min army consisting of marines and research on the caduceus reactor starts at 14-16, after my 2nd starport is built. I don't use helbats even vs zealot heavy comps because they're not micro-friendly and they die too fast and become even more immobile (queen off-creep) under time-warp. I obviously adapt to what i scout, but the general direction is bio centric since mech is underwhelming in terms of cost efficiency and falls easily to immortal/collossus/vr comps. | ||
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JackReacher
United States197 Posts
The problem is, when going Roach + Hydra or any kind of build that relies heavily on Hydra, Colossus is the "natural counter" to hydralisks and Corrupters still deal with Colossi 10x better than Vipers can, and Vipers don't morph into Broodlords at Tier 3. I see this as one of those units like the Raven that has uses, but other units simple perform them much better so they never get used. Edit: Howling Peaks and Star Station should be automatic vetoes for ANY Protoss playing ladder. They are extremely bad maps for Protoss, and I'm pretty sure they'll be gone by full release anyway. The only players that like them are Zergs. But then again, the ideal Zerg map would just be a giant wide-open arena with no terrain and nothing to forcefield units behind/into except for mineral lines and buildings. Maybe they should just play on those unit test maps. | ||
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