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On December 27 2012 08:21 JackReacher wrote:
I have yet to see a single Viper yet. All the Zergs I play either go Roach + Hydra (sometimes w/ Infestor), Roach Infestor Broodlord Corruptor just like in WoL, or some kind of Swarm Host Roach Overseer contain.
The problem is, when going Roach + Hydra or any kind of build that relies heavily on Hydra, Colossus is the "natural counter" to hydralisks and Corrupters still deal with Colossi 10x better than Vipers can, and Vipers don't morph into Broodlords at Tier 3. I see this as one of those units like the Raven that has uses, but other units simple perform them much better so they never get used.
What? How are Corruptors better than Vipers when dealing with Colossus? With Vipers, every Colossus gets abducted and focus fired down instantly at the start of the battle. Not to mention you'll only need a few vipers instead of 10+ corruptors. Vipers also provide Blinding Cloud instead of being wasted supply after the Colossi have gone down.
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just a masters level player here..
lol i can't find a composition against roach hydra with couple viper mixes.
3rd base timing attacks are completely gone because of 2- 3 vipers.
since colosi become useless and breaks the forcefield when abducted by viper, its impossible to fight max roach hydra army without AOE.
what am i supposed to do?! lol make high templar against mass roaches?!.
it's frustrating. Protoss does not have much late game tools in HOTS where as zerg have new late game units that counters all protoss strategy from WOL.
YES protoss strategy from WOL must not work in HOTS but what is there to add or modify?!
Protoss ground base mid/lategame in HOTS is still the same.
Help please 
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On December 27 2012 03:57 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 23:51 Decendos wrote:
has anybody tested mass oracle play + zealot HT support vs MMM? just did some tests and it is insanely strong if you combine timewarp + storm + 29 DPS to light units + zealots connecting way better thanks to timewarp. would love to see this work ^^ Yes, playing at WoL masters level, this is incredibly hard to fight effectively. If i play Terran, i'd normally lose because you will need impeccable ghost control. The priority here is to drain oracle energy and because they can't be sniped, landing emps on a unit that almost moves as fast a phoenix is a challenge. Either i land my emps, remove their energy for timewarp or watch my units die because if the limited micro (slow movespeed). Also, while the caduceus reactor is great, however, the sheer AOE of a typical collossus&ht supported chargelot ball is amplied because storms now do almost up to 60 dmg, mitigating the extra benefits of that upgrade. Sniping Hts are harder as well since oracles can timewarp forward ghosts which instantly die to a small group of forward zealots, so in a typical game, doing this old maneuver is far more riskier, unless you pray the protoss does not have observers to detect cloaked ghosts. My typical build follows the WoL meta of TvP with emphasis on faster upgrades (cc 1st into 3 rax + 2x ENG) with bulk of my first 9 min army consisting of marines and research on the caduceus reactor starts at 14-16, after my 2nd starport is built. I don't use helbats even vs zealot heavy comps because they're not micro-friendly and they die too fast and become even more immobile (queen off-creep) under time-warp. I obviously adapt to what i scout, but the general direction is bio centric since mech is underwhelming in terms of cost efficiency and falls easily to immortal/collossus/vr comps.
This sounds really really cool in theory but i think the control required will make it hard even for pretty good masters players.
The speed difference between oracles and HT is gonna be hard to juggle. You mis micro either for a 2nd and both will just disappear to marine dps.
This is the kind of stuff i would love to see pro's do though. HotS just seems to require so much more apm. It can be overwhelming at times but i think the korean pros will really pull away.
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On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote:
Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs.
Do you have replays or a VOD for this timing? The 3-colossi push in WoL doesn't hit until close to 16 minutes usually (although if you go for a fast enough third you can do it at about 15 minutes, but only just in my experience and waiting for a 4th Colossi would push you out past 16).
EDIT: Also, in HotS air-toss is kindof amaizing. Carrier-Skillray/Phoenix (depending on enemy comp)-oracle-HT-Zealot is pretty amazing, if super micro-intensive. I normally open with a couple of oracles then a void ray or phoenixes, depending on what I scout. Then I tech to carriers whilst massing zealots and canons with my spare mins and get HTs (and eventually archons).
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On December 27 2012 14:52 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote:
Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. Do you have replays or a VOD for this timing? The 3-colossi push in WoL doesn't hit until close to 16 minutes usually (although if you go for a fast enough third you can do it at about 15 minutes, but only just in my experience and waiting for a 4th Colossi would push you out past 16). EDIT: Also, in HotS air-toss is kindof amaizing. Carrier-Skillray/Phoenix (depending on enemy comp)-oracle-HT-Zealot is pretty amazing, if super micro-intensive. I normally open with a couple of oracles then a void ray or phoenixes, depending on what I scout. Then I tech to carriers whilst massing zealots and canons with my spare mins and get HTs (and eventually archons).
I second that about skytoss. Just pure zealot ground army with carrier/VR wastes roach/hydra thanks to the VR ability (add HT later). I feel that now you don't have to waste all that gas on sentries and stalkers to fight even with roach AND you can take way earlier 3rd thanks to Photon Overcharge.
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Yea I agree 4 colosi at 13 mins with the 3rd base up is toooo fast even with 2 robos.
unless u juiced and risked your tech. ( assuming the zerg doesn't do anything about the 3rd and the toss does not make a single immortal)... not to mention if zerg went mutas. it's an auto lose.
Im starting to think airtoss is the answer for roach hydra and viper mix.
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On December 27 2012 14:52 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 21:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 21 2012 16:40 FlyingBeer wrote:On December 21 2012 11:22 nonsequitur wrote:On December 12 2012 17:18 TokO wrote:
Anybody else feel forced to rush some sort of AoE early against Zerg? Seems like most Lair tech stuff destroys Sentry/Immortal 3rd, especially with the design of most new maps (often open 3rds). I guess against Terran as well, you felt a lot safer doing multiple tech paths before, but now it's really difficult to hold multipronged harass, especially once they succeed in landing the troops. Feedback is really efficient against the new medivacs xD Yeah. Almost every zerg goes Roach/Hydra now and I have no idea how to deal with that without colossus. But when the zerg scouts the colossus tech, they just go for Vipers and Abduct makes colossus useless. I've tried going Stargate into Templar but without Immortals, the roach max just kills me. I honestly have no clue how to play vs Zerg and I'll be extremely grateful if anyone can provide a brief guide. I'm ~60-70% vP/vT and 20% vZ. :D Go for a Zealot/Archon or a Skytoss composition. With the hydra upgrades to move quicker, vipers to abduct colossus, and locusts to waste force field energy, robo+sentries just doesn't work anymore. Sure it does, Viper requires hivetech. So before the Viper is out, which should not be before 14ish minutes, you can simply kill a Zerg that goes for roach hydra. By minute 13 you should have 4 Colossi and +3 Attack, that is more than enough to destroy Zergs. Do you have replays or a VOD for this timing? The 3-colossi push in WoL doesn't hit until close to 16 minutes usually (although if you go for a fast enough third you can do it at about 15 minutes, but only just in my experience and waiting for a 4th Colossi would push you out past 16). EDIT: Also, in HotS air-toss is kindof amaizing. Carrier-Skillray/Phoenix (depending on enemy comp)-oracle-HT-Zealot is pretty amazing, if super micro-intensive. I normally open with a couple of oracles then a void ray or phoenixes, depending on what I scout. Then I tech to carriers whilst massing zealots and canons with my spare mins and get HTs (and eventually archons).
I used to do this a lot, about a month ago.
I would open up 4 sentry WP drop while taking a quick third (you scout the number of gases so mass roach gets ruled out)
while third gets up I get a second Robo and Bay, go with 4 Colossi and 2 more on the way.
Hit before hive unless I messed up.
I don't have any of the replays/VODs, I'm sorry 
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On December 28 2012 03:08 StarcracK wrote:
Yea I agree 4 colosi at 13 mins with the 3rd base up is toooo fast even with 2 robos.
unless u juiced and risked your tech. ( assuming the zerg doesn't do anything about the 3rd and the toss does not make a single immortal)... not to mention if zerg went mutas. it's an auto lose.
Im starting to think airtoss is the answer for roach hydra and viper mix.
The "problem" is that you have to go skytoss from the start.
Right now PvZ is pretty similar to WoL in one fact: if Z stalls till hivetech, P is gonna have problems. Then Skytoss is the difference.
Still, if the Z is good, he will scout the skytoss, take an eco lead (since you can't push fast as skytoss), and start strading armies or roaches for Nexus/carriers, and still be ahead. Is a tough call tho. One thing I'm pretty sure, is that in the average map, Tempest just suck compared to carriers (as most P's expected).
The problem with the classic 8:30-10:00 3rd into Collosi push is that now Blink kinda sucks vs mutas. So, again, skytoss seems good. But again, I'm pretty sure skytoss strats have lots of weaknesess. At least Z's usually take lot of time before they realize those things...
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Speaking as a diamond-live, plat-beta protoss, I've completely cut colossi out of my timing. I now use a mix of void rays, high templars, archons, chargelots and immortals as my lategame composition - with HTs / archons replacing the anti-hydra AOE, and immortals becoming the mainstay vs roaches instead. Chargelots act as a buffer for the squishy HTs as well as the immortals.
The primary issue with this comp is waiting too long before engaging, as superior numbers of corruptors coupled with BLs will completely roll over you (as VR / storm provides your primary AA). I suspect a lategame transition to carrier / VR / tempest / storm might be the answer, with tempests sniping infestors.
On December 28 2012 03:48 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 03:08 StarcracK wrote:
Yea I agree 4 colosi at 13 mins with the 3rd base up is toooo fast even with 2 robos.
unless u juiced and risked your tech. ( assuming the zerg doesn't do anything about the 3rd and the toss does not make a single immortal)... not to mention if zerg went mutas. it's an auto lose.
Im starting to think airtoss is the answer for roach hydra and viper mix. The "problem" is that you have to go skytoss from the start. Right now PvZ is pretty similar to WoL in one fact: if Z stalls till hivetech, P is gonna have problems. Then Skytoss is the difference. Still, if the Z is good, he will scout the skytoss, take an eco lead (since you can't push fast as skytoss), and start strading armies or roaches for Nexus/carriers, and still be ahead. Is a tough call tho. One thing I'm pretty sure, is that in the average map, Tempest just suck compared to carriers (as most P's expected). The problem with the classic 8:30-10:00 3rd into Collosi push is that now Blink kinda sucks vs mutas. So, again, skytoss seems good. But again, I'm pretty sure skytoss strats have lots of weaknesess. At least Z's usually take lot of time before they realize those things...
Pure skytoss has 1 big weakness: hydras  (and marines, but Z dont really make those, except when infested). Those die very handily to storm though, which is nice, as storm is also good vs mass muta (which you'll be facing a lot in hots).
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Hi,
High masters toss here, I'm also struggling playing vs zerg, i've tried several army compositions, such as Skytoss or those collosus timing. When playing skytoss i died often to 3base mass hydra push as my storm tech wasnt ready yet and pure void rays/chargelots aren't enough even with this nexus cannon support. So i switched to wol meta, and now my build looks like Stargate->couple of phoenixes(6 or so) and one vr(i didn't try oracles yet)->twilight,second forge->robo->collsus(while third base)->timing with 2-2 few voidrays and collosus stalker sentry zealot ball->If game lasts longer i go void ray stalker stormers.
In my opinon this build is pretty good, but sometimes i lose to early roach pushes vs my third base even with my voidray because that build is kinda greedy and my mechanics arent prefect. I can upload some replays me doing this but i have not face zerg on the ladder for last 15games(and tbh im happy bout that). Thats my few words, im thinking about doing some guide considering this build, but first let me know what do you think about this build.
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On December 28 2012 05:26 SalsaCookies wrote:
Hi,
High masters toss here, I'm also struggling playing vs zerg, i've tried several army compositions, such as Skytoss or those collosus timing. When playing skytoss i died often to 3base mass hydra push as my storm tech wasnt ready yet and pure void rays/chargelots aren't enough even with this nexus cannon support. So i switched to wol meta, and now my build looks like Stargate->couple of phoenixes(6 or so) and one vr(i didn't try oracles yet)->twilight,second forge->robo->collsus(while third base)->timing with 2-2 few voidrays and collosus stalker sentry zealot ball->If game lasts longer i go void ray stalker stormers.
In my opinon this build is pretty good, but sometimes i lose to early roach pushes vs my third base even with my voidray because that build is kinda greedy and my mechanics arent prefect. I can upload some replays me doing this but i have not face zerg on the ladder for last 15games(and tbh im happy bout that). Thats my few words, im thinking about doing some guide considering this build, but first let me know what do you think about this build.
I think you need immortals.
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On December 28 2012 06:43 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:26 SalsaCookies wrote:
Hi,
High masters toss here, I'm also struggling playing vs zerg, i've tried several army compositions, such as Skytoss or those collosus timing. When playing skytoss i died often to 3base mass hydra push as my storm tech wasnt ready yet and pure void rays/chargelots aren't enough even with this nexus cannon support. So i switched to wol meta, and now my build looks like Stargate->couple of phoenixes(6 or so) and one vr(i didn't try oracles yet)->twilight,second forge->robo->collsus(while third base)->timing with 2-2 few voidrays and collosus stalker sentry zealot ball->If game lasts longer i go void ray stalker stormers.
In my opinon this build is pretty good, but sometimes i lose to early roach pushes vs my third base even with my voidray because that build is kinda greedy and my mechanics arent prefect. I can upload some replays me doing this but i have not face zerg on the ladder for last 15games(and tbh im happy bout that). Thats my few words, im thinking about doing some guide considering this build, but first let me know what do you think about this build. I think you need immortals.
na, the new VRs are actually good at something other than being slow and that is shredding Roaches.
Their DPs is a little lower than Immortals' but they still destroy Roaches PLUS the Roaches cannot hit them.
No Zerg will go for a lot of Roaches if you show 2 or more VRs!
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I guess the new pvp-metagame is: zealots, voids, archons, storm
So refreshing after 2 years of 1 base allins and colossi-wars.
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On December 28 2012 08:04 Awesomeness wrote:
I guess the new pvp-metagame is: zealots, voids, archons, storm
So refreshing after 2 years of 1 base allins and colossi-wars.
it's a bit more complex than that
lategame PvP is like this:
void ray > tempest / colossus
tempest > colossus
colossus > blink stalkers
blink stalkers > void ray / tempest
so you have to actually scout now.
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Are you sure about blink stalkers > void ray / tempest? It feels like void rays just destroy stalkers once you get enough of them and you can dump your minerals into chargelots who are obv. pretty good against them as well.
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depends on numbers, you need like... 8+ VRs for that to happen, more if the blink player is aggressively blinking forward / sniping VRs.
also, storm is just as bad in pvp as its always been
EDIT: also there's something a lot of people seem to forget: a VR heavy composition is actually fairly mineral heavy. 250-150.
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Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate.
But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level.
Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper
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On December 29 2012 01:10 rEalGuapo wrote:
Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate.
But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level.
Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper
storm
EDIT: To elaborate: templar tech is the new colossus. With the advent of vipers, the increased amount of spire use and hydra speed @ lair, colossi in the midgame are no longer adequate unless you have massively gosu control / scouting.
What I've been doing is this:
zealot stalkerp poke -> void rays off 1 stargate -> robo / 3 gates -> third -> TC / 2nd forge -> templars, then storm. You have to get storm out FAST or you will die to midgame roach hydra pushes. You get charge, and do a 15 min timing consisting of +2/+2 chargelots, immortals, archons and VRs.
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On December 29 2012 01:10 rEalGuapo wrote:
Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate.
But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level.
Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper
I have plenty of success doing just that... Are you sure you're doing it right?
FFE
+1 attack, 3-4 zealots out of 1 gate
warp gate tech
1 stargate
2 more gates
Oracle should be out by the time or soon after your zealots start their poke, don't get caught in bad position or just wait until Oracle there. Start your third and get a msc. +1 Zealot/Oracle will handle the third pretty easily. If you're conservative, you can dance on the rim of his base and wait for another Oracle and a zealot warp-in to come. Lings can't engage Oracle and +1 Zealots.
On 3 early bases I'm still trying to find a efficient way to do it but I place 2 more stargates before I place extra gates, so it's usually 3gate/3stargate then 1 by 1 get 4 more gates.
Get about 6 Void Rays before starting Fleet Beacon, harass with Oracles and just turtle. After third base has gasses taken do shields and air attack upgrades. You can be pretty aggressive with rays and zealot warpins while taking a 4th, just take your msc with you for the recall. Get carriers and charge, then finally get high templars.
This needs more work but usually opponents try to get roach/hydra and they lose because they made too many hydras and my zealots shred them, or they made too few and my air shreds them and the roaches. I need more experience with it though because a lot of the time I win with the zealot/oracle push.
Note: If you can't get the zealot/oracle timing right, skip the +1 and get earlier stargate, or try and double gas after FFE on time or early, or stagger gas 1 at 18, the other at 21-22.
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On December 29 2012 02:15 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 01:10 rEalGuapo wrote:
Is there no GM Protoss on TL?!
I am really looking to find out what to do in PvZ.
I used to go +1 Zealot -> Stargate.
But If Zerg goes mass Hydras I just die.
I would really like to know what people consider the "meta game" in PvZ right now on high level.
Just seems like everything that doesn't involve Colossi sucks against both Swarm Hosts as well as Hydras.
But then again everything sucks against Roach Hydra/Viper I have plenty of success doing just that... Are you sure you're doing it right? FFE +1 attack, 3-4 zealots out of 1 gate warp gate tech 1 stargate 2 more gates Oracle should be out by the time or soon after your zealots start their poke, don't get caught in bad position or just wait until Oracle there. Start your third and get a msc. +1 Zealot/Oracle will handle the third pretty easily. If you're conservative, you can dance on the rim of his base and wait for another Oracle and a zealot warp-in to come. Lings can't engage Oracle and +1 Zealots. On 3 early bases I'm still trying to find a efficient way to do it but I place 2 more stargates before I place extra gates, so it's usually 3gate/3stargate then 1 by 1 get 4 more gates. Get about 6 Void Rays before starting Fleet Beacon, harass with Oracles and just turtle. After third base has gasses taken do shields and air attack upgrades. You can be pretty aggressive with rays and zealot warpins while taking a 4th, just take your msc with you for the recall. Get carriers and charge, then finally get high templars. This needs more work but usually opponents try to get roach/hydra and they lose because they made too many hydras and my zealots shred them, or they made too few and my air shreds them and the roaches. I need more experience with it though because a lot of the time I win with the zealot/oracle push. Note: If you can't get the zealot/oracle timing right, skip the +1 and get earlier stargate, or try and double gas after FFE on time or early, or stagger gas 1 at 18, the other at 21-22.
I'm sorry but what Zerg loses their third base to 3-4 Zealots and an Oracle..
Usually you will meet 1 or 2 Queens and enough Lings to surround and kill all your Zealots.
Or does this hit before 7 minutes? Can't really imagine that. . .
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EPT
