EPT[G] PvT Cheese: 4 Gate Blink/Obs All-In
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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McTeazy
Canada297 Posts
Thanks! | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
 http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67574/?set=5&lang= Also, this is actually doable vs a ton of Terran builds, except perhaps reactor 2 rax, and even then you might just chrono out one sentry (you just have to defend a ramp rather than a nexus anyway) or something like that and be fine. I've seen games vs 111 in which neither side could kill each other so it just kinda went into a macro game too, assuming protoss doesn't get caught out of position by banshees or hellions in his base. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
Also, I would recommend adding replays against a variety of strategies. 1-1-1, 1 rax fe, hellion drop, 2 rax, etc... | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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TripleOSeven
United States106 Posts
On November 10 2012 05:54 Salient wrote: It's funny how this is similar to standard play in PvP, but is considered an all in or cheese in PvT. Why is that? Because it's a one base build that usually if it fails, Protoss is too behind and loses. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
 Gonna work on getting these numbers down properly, although i usually get a zealot first so as not to be completely fucking dead against a marauder opening, and it is good to tank the bunker while i pressure at the front waiting for my obs sometimes. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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ian952
Canada124 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
On November 10 2012 06:10 city42 wrote: I don't understand why you get a fourth gateway. With 16 probes on minerals you can barely support 3 gate stalkers + pylons, and that's before considering chronoboost. The 4 gate variations of this all-in involve more probes (Genius gets 29 I believe). Yeah, I think with this build some extra probes are required to optimally support 4 gates. I copied MC's version of this build a while ago and he usually goes up to 27 probes. Even if you're late on warp cycles and your minerals pile up a bit the extra probes are helpful anyway if you want to expand and transition into a macro game. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 10 2012 06:02 Salient wrote: So blink obs is not cheesey in PvP because 1 base builds are very strong and guaranteed to do some damage? It is not cheesy in PvP because 1) if played perfectly it can beat any build and 2) it doesn't fall behind economically nearly as much as it does in PvT. Also i agree on the probe count, i'd get like 20ish on minerals. | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
You make 3 units, proxy the robo, make 3 more gates, make a warp prism, load the 3 units into warp prism, drop in their main and warp in. Terrans have been doing gas builds instead of 1 rax expands, so I dont really do this build anymore, but it worked really well when every single terran was taking greedy expansions. | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
I stole this build off of babyknight as well, and i usually pull it out in tournaments against GM players if i want to win, pretty sure i have a winning record against players much better than me with it Gonna work on getting these numbers down properly, although i usually get a zealot first so as not to be completely fucking dead against a marauder opening, and it is good to tank the bunker while i pressure at the front waiting for my obs sometimes dude i played you, and this build, in some playhem on antiga. this stupid blink allin is a bitch to deal with if you get your scouting scv denied. as an interesting side note; you can almost completely shut down this build if you open up with an early shell opener into expo and manage to snipe the first stalker / force the scout in via concussive agression. the only problem being that you will not be able to win 1rine2mara vs 2stalker+zeal where as you will have free reign over your opponents natural if he skips the first zealot and goes for double stalker immediatly. in any case it comes down to when you realize the all in is hitting. if you know its coming one or 2 minutes before it hits you can easily get enought bunkers up and add some rax production to just camp it out until your stim finishes but if you dont get the early intel that will mostlikey mean gg right there. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
I actually on these maps I expect this opening, do a 15 gas opening, to get stim earlier than expected than 1 rax FE would get it. Still, a bitch of a build even when you know it's coming, and bunker your main, and expo, and protoss still do damage. | ||
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ian952
Canada124 Posts
On November 10 2012 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote: I don't seem to have as much trouble identifying this build, as on those few maps (ohana, shakuras, cloud, antiga) if I don't see a 1 gate FE I expect this and tuck my barracks back further into my base. Losing stim is losing the game, in my experience. I actually on these maps I expect this opening, do a 15 gas opening, to get stim earlier than expected than 1 rax FE would get it. Still, a bitch of a build even when you know it's coming, and bunker your main, and expo, and protoss still do damage. This build is really strong, no matter how hard you prepare for it, you can still lose. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On November 10 2012 08:42 ian952 wrote: This build is really strong, no matter how hard you prepare for it, you can still lose. Thank you for reiterating what I already said in the last line. Excellent input. I'd like to think that at the decent level I play at, that I would know that. I lose to about everything I know is coming. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
I like getting a second stalker out of the gateway, because it gives me a better chance to deny scouting of my natural. I only do this build in Antiga, so I search around a bit and leave a stalker in each side of the intersection in front of the natural ramp, forwardish. I also get more probes, so my first attack doesn't hit as fast as yours, but I still find it worth it. It's important to target tech labs with the stalkers when possible, since delaying stim and marauders assure that can you can keep on pressuring. | ||
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Tingles
Australia225 Posts
On Cloud Kingdom and Antiga it's pretty OP. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ManicMarine
Australia409 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 10 2012 13:41 Sated wrote: As quite obviously stated in the OP, I wouldn't recommend using this build against any Terran strategy that builds a Refinery before expanding. This excludes all the builds that you've mentioned except for the 1 Rax FE. To quote the OP: This build is quite commonly done against gas builds though and is effective against factory builds. A complete guide should include some mention of play vs fact builds | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Hashmeister
Germany238 Posts
I have to say i do agree with monk. and Teoita tbh. You should add more replays showing the build vs different styles. It's not unimportant to have them by any means, just because in my eyes you need at least half a dozen replays in which this strat is used against different styles the terran does. ofc its most efficient against 1 rax fe - but even with this strat there r different follow ups to it - for example the terran scouting it early enough and deciding to bunker up in his main or something. seeing different replays also teach u a lot about positioning in different situations etc. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 10 2012 15:02 Sated wrote: Effective if you're lucky. No good Terran is going to let you see what they're doing beyond Refinery/No Refinery and so using this build after scouting a Refinery is a total coin-flip... ... but that's coming from me, a Protoss player whose standard PvT opening is 2 Gate Robo. I don't personally think that this all-in is safe vs. anything other than a 1 Rax FE and so don't feel safe writing about such. Maybe it's a coin flip, but it's a flip with very good chances. After all, no Terran goes 2 rax anymore on today's maps. And many Protoss do take this flip in the GSL. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
I played this on cloud last night and was doing pretty well. I got quite unlucky as his scout hit the perfect anti timing as my fest stalker popped but he sent his SCV in the nick of time where the last shot my stalker used to kill it was in natural range so he knew I was on one base at just before 5:00. He then scanned about a minute later and caught the robo (not the TC) but he figured it out and had 2 bunkers on the low ground and 2 in his main. He played standard. 3 rax into factory with one EBay and later tried to add 2 more rax. He defended well by I eventually caught a few units and a bunker in the main with no Scvs and quickly sniped it. Then I got to the low ground an sniped a handful of SCVs. Then I got back into the main and killed off stim and more SCVs. A minute later I did it again. It started to snowball and I got way ahead (I thought). Then one time I blinked in his main and started killing shit with no resistance. Just then I caught on the xelnaga his whole army moving to my base. I warped in a couple sentries at home but that didnt slow him down at all obviously. I also pumped an immortal which died without much fight. I eventually got about 8 zealots and 3 sentries warped into my proxy to defend my nexus I built at his 3rd. But by the time he arrived his 3 medivac. 20ish marine, 5 marauder army with shells but no stim absolutely shit on me. Any idea how to engage this with primarily Blink stalkers? | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On November 13 2012 06:57 Dubsy wrote: Have you guys ever faced a base trade playing this style? I played this on cloud last night and was doing pretty well. I got quite unlucky as his scout hit the perfect anti timing as my fest stalker popped but he sent his SCV in the nick of time where the last shot my stalker used to kill it was in natural range so he knew I was on one base at just before 5:00. He then scanned about a minute later and caught the robo (not the TC) but he figured it out and had 2 bunkers on the low ground and 2 in his main. He played standard. 3 rax into factory with one EBay and later tried to add 2 more rax. He defended well by I eventually caught a few units and a bunker in the main with no Scvs and quickly sniped it. Then I got to the low ground an sniped a handful of SCVs. Then I got back into the main and killed off stim and more SCVs. A minute later I did it again. It started to snowball and I got way ahead (I thought). Then one time I blinked in his main and started killing shit with no resistance. Just then I caught on the xelnaga his whole army moving to my base. I warped in a couple sentries at home but that didnt slow him down at all obviously. I also pumped an immortal which died without much fight. I eventually got about 8 zealots and 3 sentries warped into my proxy to defend my nexus I built at his 3rd. But by the time he arrived his 3 medivac. 20ish marine, 5 marauder army with shells but no stim absolutely shit on me. Any idea how to engage this with primarily Blink stalkers? You'd be best off to post a replay with this, but you generally shouldn't be doing this vs a 1 base terran as mentioned in the OP Based on what you've mentioned though, the best response is to scout him moving out and try and pick off units and blink away as he gets near your base(medivacs > marauders > marines in terms of priority) If you can manage to snipe all 3 medivacs you should win, just constantly forcefield your ramp and kill everything you can till he retreats as you build up. Make sure you snipe any medivacs as they pop from the starport while you're doing this though. Failing all that if you actually really think you can't win without engaging the army it basically comes down to blink control ;p Have the immortal shift-target all the marauders, try and disrupt his concave with forcefields and pop a guardian shield and just blink back hurt stalkers as best you can.+ Show Spoiler + This is more of an absolute last resort or something to do after you've followed what I've said above(picking off units and blinking away, most importantly medivacs, as he moves out towards your base) though. I still think it's best not to do this vs a terran who you haven't confirmed to have expanded though and you should still post a replay. =D *Edit* Oh, ignore the stuff about not doing it vs a 1 base terran, apperently I misread your post a bit I thought you said he was on one base, not you. (still don't do the build vs a 1 base terran though ;p) The rest however is still relevant. | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
This definitely would have been ideal as then I could actually FF the ramp (he obviously just lifted all his units when I did it in this game as I only had a couple sentries). I guess my biggest problem was recognizing it too late because I didn't think I could get my stalkers home in time to help fight. I like to have at least one obs on his army but he was VERY dilligent about sniping them with scans making my blink ins a little riskier. Guess I will staring leaving a zealot on the path home so I know when it's time to get out of dodge. If I could fight a my ramp with FF and probes I would have crushed that. Thanks. | ||
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On November 13 2012 07:54 Dubsy wrote: Yeah sorry I kinda implied he was working off a gasless FE. So I'm thinking my best bet woulda been to GTFO his main as soon as I saw him moving out correct? To try to be there to fight at my ramp? This definitely would have been ideal as then I could actually FF the ramp (he obviously just lifted all his units when I did it in this game as I only had a couple sentries). I guess my biggest problem was recognizing it too late because I didn't think I could get my stalkers home in time to help fight. I like to have at least one obs on his army but he was VERY dilligent about sniping them with scans making my blink ins a little riskier. Guess I will staring leaving a zealot on the path home so I know when it's time to get out of dodge. If I could fight a my ramp with FF and probes I would have crushed that. Thanks. Your best bet would have been to get out of his main and start sniping medivacs, marauders, and marines(medivacs with highest importance) as he moved across map. Snipe them by targetfiring one with all your stalkers and then blink away and run them till blink goes off cooldown and go back and repeat, so you don't lose any stalkers. Then when he gets to your main, yes you could confront him with forcefields and good blink micro, but like I said above, if you manage to snipe all the medivacs you can just keep him forcefielded out and go back and ravage his main some more. Just be diligent about sniping any medivacs he tries to produce if you attempt this. ;p | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
versus other builds not so much. But it is also holdable by Terran, you have to pull SCVs though | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On November 13 2012 06:57 Dubsy wrote: Have you guys ever faced a base trade playing this style? I played this on cloud last night and was doing pretty well. I got quite unlucky as his scout hit the perfect anti timing as my fest stalker popped but he sent his SCV in the nick of time where the last shot my stalker used to kill it was in natural range so he knew I was on one base at just before 5:00. He then scanned about a minute later and caught the robo (not the TC) but he figured it out and had 2 bunkers on the low ground and 2 in his main. He played standard. 3 rax into factory with one EBay and later tried to add 2 more rax. He defended well by I eventually caught a few units and a bunker in the main with no Scvs and quickly sniped it. Then I got to the low ground an sniped a handful of SCVs. Then I got back into the main and killed off stim and more SCVs. A minute later I did it again. It started to snowball and I got way ahead (I thought). Then one time I blinked in his main and started killing shit with no resistance. Just then I caught on the xelnaga his whole army moving to my base. I warped in a couple sentries at home but that didnt slow him down at all obviously. I also pumped an immortal which died without much fight. I eventually got about 8 zealots and 3 sentries warped into my proxy to defend my nexus I built at his 3rd. But by the time he arrived his 3 medivac. 20ish marine, 5 marauder army with shells but no stim absolutely shit on me. Any idea how to engage this with primarily Blink stalkers? Honestly a base trade should favor you pretty heavily since your army is already at his base while his has to walk all the way across the map. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
The guide however could be much more in-depth, mainly:
With all of this added I feel this guide could maybe become part of the recommended threads | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On December 07 2012 22:21 Geiko wrote: Good guide, I use this build all the time with great success against high master / GM players. The guide however could be much more in-depth, mainly:
With all of this added I feel this guide could maybe become part of the recommended threads Yes. Those are pretty much the reasons i didn't include it in the recent update. | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
very similiar to this build i wrote about several months ago PvT Blink Staler harass opening It seems the only major difference is that i delay my attack a few seconds and drop down a nexus and turn it into a macro game instead of going all in, so if you are able to do both, could make it very tricky for the terran player to decide how to respond. | ||
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Drisc
France3 Posts
http://www.sendspace.com/file/sjcabn http://www.sendspace.com/file/726cvx | ||
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Tommyth
Poland117 Posts
On December 07 2012 22:21 Geiko wrote:
Well, he wrote that u need to be sure it's rax FE, going for this build against gas openings is very very risky, as it outright loses to any rax based aggresion off 1 base. I like to delay my council a little bit and open with 3 stalker rush(just like pvp). It allows me to easily deflect marine-SCV all in, which sometimes is very difficult to scout(last position on antiga/full wall off), and the stalkers can still inflict some damage before blink finishes. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On December 11 2012 03:56 Sated wrote: You can use it against Marine/Tank/Banshee play because Blink Stalkers can beat that composition if micro'd properly, especially before Siege Mode is ready. The problem is that a good Terran won't let you see whether their gas opening is for a 2 Rax play or a Factory play, and this build really isn't that good against dedicated 2 Rax aggression. That's why I don't recommend using it against a Terran who opens with an early gas. You have both a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, so it transitions into either Colossus or Templar-based play just fine. I prefer going for Colossi since they have better synergy with Blink Stalkers, to be honest, but I've seen both follow-ups being used in the pro scene. EDIT: From the Protoss Help Me Thread: 2 rax FE usually doesn't push up your main ramp once they scout that you haven't expanded because if you went for an aggressive 3 gate and they go up the ramp, they lose the game. This build really works against any kind of terran opening that isn't marine scv allins or any kind of proxy barracks. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
On November 10 2012 07:03 Teoita wrote: I'm fairly sure Deezer also map hacked. LOL theres his 80% win rate for you. on topic: great guide i will add this to my toolbox of builds | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
A finals between Puma on Belshir Beach comes to mind, Puma leaves Heros stargate aline until WAY late in the game, even though he scouted it super early because he can't spare the units to kill it until after He has Hero pinned on 2 bases to his four. I have played over 200 games against this build. What I meant to say (and it came across as a balance whine) is that you are having great success despite bad strategy. Because this all-in is so strong, you don't need to hide anything to win at the pro, or any other level. (see Hero vs Taeja dreamhack g4 on Antiga, Hero gives Taeja's SCV a tour of his base and still roflstomps without even trying to cancel the stim researching right in the middle of Taejas base) I don't really have a problem beating this at master level when I know it is coming. But when they proxy and I have less units and delayed my addons because they forced an extra bunker or a turret, THAT I can't beat without a blind counter to one of four possible strategies. But again, I can't think of a game where I was safe to leave my base and the Protoss didnt GG before I did or I couldnt kill their main with rallying reinforcements. Planning for transition after you scout 1 rax fe is silly imo. TLDR blink really really good, proxy blink is better. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 11 2012 07:47 U_G_L_Y wrote: If the game gets to the point where Terran can leave their base and not lose, Protoss has lost. There is no transition vs 1 rax fe. If I can get units to your proxy, I will just kill you, screw the proxy. A finals between Puma on Belshir Beach comes to mind, Puma leaves Heros stargate aline until WAY late in the game, even though he scouted it super early because he can't spare the units to kill it until after He has Hero pinned on 2 bases to his four. I have played over 200 games against this build. What I meant to say (and it came across as a balance whine) is that you are having great success despite bad strategy. Because this all-in is so strong, you don't need to hide anything to win at the pro, or any other level. (see Hero vs Taeja dreamhack g4 on Antiga, Hero gives Taeja's SCV a tour of his base and still roflstomps without even trying to cancel the stim researching right in the middle of Taejas base) I don't really have a problem beating this at master level when I know it is coming. But when they proxy and I have less units and delayed my addons because they forced an extra bunker or a turret, THAT I can't beat without a blind counter to one of four possible strategies. But again, I can't think of a game where I was safe to leave my base and the Protoss didnt GG before I did or I couldnt kill their main with rallying reinforcements. Planning for transition after you scout 1 rax fe is silly imo. TLDR blink really really good, proxy blink is better. ...what Wrong. They transition fine if they cut a round of stalkers and nexus. They have TC + stalkers for drop defense. Drop double forge, and get charge and defend your self with chargelot archon with blink stalkers harassing as long as possible. When they move out to hit, FF him, target down medics and just let chargelots charge in and clear the army. If not a DT follow up. It's not always as all in as you think. And what... proxy what? The early 2 gas still gives it away as a tech build. Safe play is standard against 2 gas protoss that early with a skipped zeal. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
Every Marauder you make against 3 gate voidray hurts you. Marines are terrible against blink stalkers until they get upgrades. Responding the same way to all 2 gas openings is just dumb. Why would you evacuate your natural against a 4 gate or DT rush or immortal bust? You're telling me that the instant they see your missing pylon they just lift their natural? And that this is a good thing? Also, I disagree that 2 rax counters this. Protoss can handle offensive 2 rax by delaying the build to get sentries and holding the watchtower, and then eventually making a warp prism instead of an observer. With a defensive 2 rax, it is about even footing. Jeffrey: If a Protoss did enough damage with the first couple blinks that he can resume probe production and expand and research charge and storm or colossus while keeping you contained, then he should be able to just kill you without doing those things. I have gotten back into games that were lost when Protoss tried this. Not all of them, but upon watching the replays where the game went long, had they spent the money on units instead, I feel that the Protosses that expanded were just toying with me/messing around because in every case I felt they could have killed me had they spent the money differently. I am glad you have had a different experience. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20294 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On December 11 2012 17:36 Teoita wrote: It happens with blink/obs PvP builds that commit heavily to aggression as well. The reasoning is simply that if you are focusing on microing blink stalkers, you will very likely not hit your warp in rounds efficiently. Even MC goes 4gate with this build. Yes, you also need the 4 gates to hit your first 2 rounds of warpins because of the gas that you have banked up. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
He'll go 1 gate into double gas on 15-16 and only saturate each geyser with 2 probes. the scv will scout it and the terran wont know for sure if you are teching since you have 2 geysers or just going for a 1 gate FE with a higher sentry count (because you are only mining with 4 probes which isnt a total gas commitment either) Once your first stalker is out you use it to deny the scout from the terran, fully saturate your gasses and go on with the blink build (2 more gates, robo, blink etc..) I think the more protoss use the 4 probes in gas and 1 gate FE, the more convincing this build will become and the harder it will be for terran to predict without burning a scan (something they dont really want to do before 8mins) | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Ruin
United States271 Posts
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zheng
United States23 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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sudosu
France120 Posts
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SorrowShine
698 Posts
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
this is all that i know of http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-sages-blink-all-in/ | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 17 2013 03:45 SorrowShine wrote: Is there any updated version of this build for HOTS using MSC instead of observer. I couldnt find anywhere. Yes there is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435336 It's off 2 base with MSC, but it's almost strictly better to do this kind of stuff off 2 base rather than 1 nowadays. You don't hit much later than 1 base build since msc + blink takes quite some time anyway and it's far harder to read what's happening. You'll hit slightly later but with 5-6 gates instead of the 3 to 4 just 1 base can support. | ||
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Littlesheep
Canada217 Posts
On December 17 2013 06:12 Markwerf wrote: Yes there is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435336 It's off 2 base with MSC, but it's almost strictly better to do this kind of stuff off 2 base rather than 1 nowadays. You don't hit much later than 1 base build since msc + blink takes quite some time anyway and it's far harder to read what's happening. You'll hit slightly later but with 5-6 gates instead of the 3 to 4 just 1 base can support. Th 2base hits over a minute later, which pretty much means you're playing against Stim at that point. | ||
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1 Rax FE (vs. Protoss)
