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![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRw6eLuOa6FhGBG5zB7FKuPgrd0fQxd2s8HUgMs9sbMg9hHjJ9BQ)
^^ You guys are JERKS! <3
Since the advent of the Queendralisk, you may have seen Korean Terrans going CC first and thought to yourself, “What a greedy mother @#$%er!”
Is he?
Here is some research I stole:
How to wall on the low ground:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208
Worker travel time by map:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324475
Slow zerglings travel 5% faster than workers.
Based on these facts, and with the help of sc2planner.com, I have calculated the absolute fastest time that a pack of six zerglings could arrive at the bottom of the ramp to your main. All times are in SC2 seconds.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N0Kn7.png)
Assumptions: 15 CC vs Pool before hatch.
I feel that even with my terrible control and micro, I can hold these. I also feel that I cannot be punished by ANY hatch first build.
My very low level game-plan, with scouting variations:
+ Show Spoiler +10 Depot Scout, 15 CC
(If I scout pool before hatch, hotkey some workers and start second barracks wall at the top of the ramp)
Double gas
Immediate marine and bunker as soon as barracks finishes
Factory on 100 gas
If zerg takes gas before 4:00, do not make a hellion. Make a techlab and get siege mode and a tank immediately and a third command center in base. When banelings show up at 7-7:30, Laugh at them, win.
If no gas until 4 minutes, I do a sloppy 2 port cloak banshee with some hellions wandering aimlessly into packs of speedlings, followed by forgetting my armory at 8 minutes so I take way too much damage from Mutas . From there, my plan is to make the zerg rage as much as possible that I won’t just GTFO of the game for the next 40 minutes because I am so far behind and hope HSM can kill a few broodlords before I die. Any helpful modifications to this plan that you people can offer would be appreciated
It seems like the risk/reward is WAY in Terran’s favor. If Terran made a barracks before CC, Zerg loses with a 6/10 pool. If Terran did not, Zerg MIGHT be able to punish it. They pretty much have to make this bet blindly.
so y u no 15 cc?
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Please feel free to pipe up if you disagree with any timings listed
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i liked it... its true.. you can probably hold them off, since 6 pool is the least likely thing a zerg would do...
but figures, i believe Korhal Compound cannot be walled off in the low ground...
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Mmm... I love posts that have research behind them.
Do you have any stats for the difference between CC-before-rax and rax-before-CC(economy wise)?
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On September 05 2012 12:11 guN-viCe wrote:
Mmm... I love posts that have research behind them.
Do you have any stats for the difference between CC-before-rax and rax-before-CC(economy wise)?
this was done before... there is a couple of posts that i cannot find right now that shows it... i believe you have a 3 worker advantage (aopart from the earlier 2x mule)
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I am pretty sure you can wall on the low ground on all maps with no neutral supply depot
It is hard to get a fixed statistic on economic advantage because in order to do that, I would have to have TWO replays with no mistakes doing the same build but with different timings. In case you didn't read my transitions spoiler... well... there is a reason this is a [D] and not a [G] =)
Also, if a mod can add the word "map" to the end of the title, my copy and paste was evidently incomplete
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What do I do on tournament maps that have that neutral supply depot on all bases that would stop my low ground wall?
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Why are your 6pool times identical to your 10pool times?
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I actually asked this question to myself a few days ago, and with the current metagame there is no reason to not go for CC first every single TvZ.
In 99,9% of my TvZs (in high master EU current season) i went 1rax FE and i've never been attacked with a pool first timing that I could have not hold going CC first.
The only thing though I guess is that with 1 rax expand on the smallest maps you actually can poke with your scouting SCV and the 3 first marines (they're just going to stay in a bunker at your natural anyway) and pick up one/two drones, disturb a little bit the mining, make the zerg overreact a bit by producing a few lings or even get an overlord if you're lucky, because it's approximately the timing where the queen just poped out.
So, yeah CC first is quite logical and not greedy in TvZ I think. Am I wrong ?
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A very good point...
I think the only reason people haven't been doing it is that they're so used to doing 1rax fe.
I personally feel nervous when I'm going for cc first just because I'm always worried about that pool before hatch build.
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On September 05 2012 12:53 anguyenm wrote:
A very good point...
I think the only reason people haven't been doing it is that they're so used to doing 1rax fe.
I personally feel nervous when I'm going for cc first just because I'm always worried about that pool before hatch build.
tbh im not really worried about a 15 pool... i think the cc is done so you can lift and defend properly
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On September 05 2012 12:39 Aro wrote:
Why are your 6pool times identical to your 10pool times?
@#$%
Because I'm an idiot and copied the same column twice. Fixed
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On September 05 2012 12:39 Aro wrote:
Why are your 6pool times identical to your 10pool times?
They aren't? ... You must be looking at the graph wrong.
EDIT : Ninja'ed :d nice research and I agree with this.
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On September 05 2012 12:36 reikai wrote:
What do I do on tournament maps that have that neutral supply depot on all bases that would stop my low ground wall?
I would discuss it in a thread not titled "ladder edition," and also, I worry about it when I am good enough to have a shot at winning a tournament.
Accept that any zerg who 6 pools a Terran (and doesn't know that you CC first every game,) is making a very bad statistical bet. There are lottery winners in this world, and I am happy for them. But I personally don't buy lottery tickets because I understand the math behind it.
But with a 6 pool, your second supply depot starts just as the lings arrive at the bottom of your ramp (180 seconds,) so with even 10 seconds advanced notice I would, hypothetically:
Cancel CC
Start engineering bay as third pin in my wall (quicker build time, will have more HP sooner)
Start second barracks right behind my depot and send (less than 10) scvs to auto repair the supply depot and get a bunker next to that assuming they didn't kill the ebay before a marine pops. Then I wait for the incoming baneling bust with a triple thick wall and accept the Zerg's gracious GG.
Non-hypothetically, I would spam hotkeys while intently watching my worker cross the map. Then, when I notice Zerglings have killed my SCV building the CC, I panic and mash all of the buttons on my keyboard and click furiously while not raising my depot, constructing anything, or even attacking with my workers. Then I would float my CC to the corner of the map and go make a burrito.
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In one of Day9's dailies he showed how you can defend a 6pool when you go CC first. It's in the Teaja daily, it seems pretty simplistic to pull off, but requires pretty good critical thinking and problem solving to work.
Pretty much what ended up happening is that Taeja canceled his expansion on the low ground at the last possible moment to buy himself time, mined as much minerals as he could and then loaded 5 scv and lifted his main CC to another expo. While his other workers pretty much kited the lings across the map. While this is going on you sneak some workers away to build a supply depot and barracks around the map, once you get 3-4 marines you gather up your SCV and clean up the drones/lings.
Also worth mentioning that you never should be afraid of a 6 pool on Shakuras plateau or Entombed Valley since you can just land the command center onto the expansions that are blocked by rocks. It will take ages for the lings to break it down, even if he isn't chasing your scv with all his lings which just gives you more time to get a considerable marine force out.
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The neutral supply depot makes it not worth doing for anyone with any interest in participating in tournaments/competitions.
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Wait so basically, you're saying that I can CC first vs Zerg safely as long as I do the low ground walloff?
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What Ive been doing is building the 10 depot on nat ramp, 15 CC, then wall off with rax - depot - bunker, with 2nd rax in main. Most nats wall off like this, and even if it doesnt - I follow up with a 6 rax +1 push so Im relatively safe against most attacks save for a quick roach bane that I didnt scout for.
Theres really no point in NOT doing a 15 CC once you are in a league where zergs always 15hatch
On September 05 2012 13:55 Janitorwolfman wrote:
In one of Day9's dailies he showed how you can defend a 6pool when you go CC first. It's in the Teaja daily, it seems pretty simplistic to pull off, but requires pretty good critical thinking and problem solving to work.
Pretty much what ended up happening is that Taeja canceled his expansion on the low ground at the last possible moment to buy himself time, mined as much minerals as he could and then loaded 5 scv and lifted his main CC to another expo. While his other workers pretty much kited the lings across the map. While this is going on you sneak some workers away to build a supply depot and barracks around the map, once you get 3-4 marines you gather up your SCV and clean up the drones/lings.
Also worth mentioning that you never should be afraid of a 6 pool on Shakuras plateau or Entombed Valley since you can just land the command center onto the expansions that are blocked by rocks. It will take ages for the lings to break it down, even if he isn't chasing your scv with all his lings which just gives you more time to get a considerable marine force out.
Requires "good critical thinking". Most people would just micro the workers instead of lifting off...really interesting stuff here.
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Against 6pool, why not just wall on the low ground with depot+CC? If the zerg doesn't six pool you only have to move the CC on a very short distance once it's done, if the Zerg 6pool, your low ground wall is already done when Zerglings hit, and it buys you time to complete a rax in your main.
Of course it wouldn't work in tourneys, but if we're talking about ladder would it work?
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Why must everyone Terran go CC first or 1Rax FE just because you can get away with it?
Is Zerg THAT good now at holding off ALL forms of early pressure?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ptfpX.png [url=https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRw6eLuOa6FhGBG5zB7FKuPgrd0fQxd2s8HUgMs9sbMg9hHjJ9BQ]https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRw6eLuOa6FhGBG5zB7FKuPgrd0fQxd2s8HUgMs9sbMg9hHjJ9BQ[/url])
