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On September 05 2012 16:21 Thezzy wrote:
Why must everyone Terran go CC first or 1Rax FE just because you can get away with it?
Is Zerg THAT good now at holding off ALL forms of early pressure?
Zerg is THAT good yeah, the multiple queens will do the job. A good zerg will always react in time to the most common early pressure (2 rax, marauder hellion allin, 3/4 rax allin). That's exactly why the last queen buff was made and keeping up in economy to build a strong mid/late game is the new way to go in TvZ.
The only kind of all in I manage to make actually work are timing on two bases around 10-11 min mark (banshee hellion and marines with combat shield on 5 rax, 4reactor and 1 tech lab) when the zerg takes a fast third.
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10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master)
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I actually go cc first now on every TvZ, and i never lost out of a rush(directly).
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On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master)
Even if you have to cancel the cc, which you shouldnt, you will still be ahead.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
Whenever I seem to go for CC first I die slightly later to a baneling bust. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, but then again I learnt from Nightmarejoo yesterday my mech build wasn't as good as it could have been, so maybe that's why.
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My drone scout loves attacking your building worker.
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On September 05 2012 20:28 AdrianHealey wrote:
My drone scout loves attacking your building worker.
"You son of a bitch !"
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Just a question why don't more people use the CC as part of the wall? I do it all the time making a fast depot CC rax wall off and have held 6 pools very easily even if you do need to pull a couple of SCVs trying to drone block.
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On September 05 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
Whenever I seem to go for CC first I die slightly later to a baneling bust. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, but then again I learnt from Nightmarejoo yesterday my mech build wasn't as good as it could have been, so maybe that's why.
This happens to me too. When I go bio I die to banelings, when I go mech I die to roach pushs.
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On September 05 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
Whenever I seem to go for CC first I die slightly later to a baneling bust. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, but then again I learnt from Nightmarejoo yesterday my mech build wasn't as good as it could have been, so maybe that's why.
That is why you scout with the worker that made the first depot. If Zerg takes gas before the 4 minute mark (keep your scv alive and running around his base until then) you should make the fastest seige tank possible (no hellion) and make a second wall at the top of your ramp and double thick at the bottom. Send a worker outside your natural at 6:30 - 6:45 and if you see more than a couple lings, send almost all of your workers into your main.
Part of what I like about CC first is that it BAITs busts. They say "You greedy arrogant SOB, only I can go 3 hatch before pool, Ima bust you and teach you a lesson!"
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Basically, (props to Sianos and SC2John) gas before 4 minutes? OVER REACT. It will pay off.
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On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master)
With a low ground wall?
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On September 05 2012 16:21 Thezzy wrote:
Why must everyone Terran go CC first or 1Rax FE just because you can get away with it?
Is Zerg THAT good now at holding off ALL forms of early pressure?
Hellion Banshee expand. Its not like we are ONLY using 15cc or 1rax FE, its just that early pressure isnt that great anymore and hellion banshee expands require quite the amount of multitask
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CC first in TvZ, to me, has the same problems that FFE has in PvZ. You're giving zerg full drone saturation, because there is no chance you can reasonably pressure.
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base?
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On September 05 2012 21:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master) With a low ground wall?
I can't find a unit tester that doesn't make every building build instantly. But...
It looks like you can get 6 zerglings attacking the low ground depot (way more than up the ramp). And they take a little over 10 seconds or so to kill a fully built depot. From your stats, it looks like the depot will still have 20 seconds to build when the zerglings arrive, and since you can't repair a building while it builds it appears you're just going to die.
(Or at least have to cancel the CC then quickly wall in at the top of the ramp too and cancel the buildings at the bottom or something. I really doubt you're still ahead after that though).
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On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
CC first in TvZ, to me, has the same problems that FFE has in PvZ. You're giving zerg full drone saturation, because there is no chance you can reasonably pressure.
? You can use the same Hellions/Banshees follow-up as you would with 1 rax FE. You don't have any earlier pressure going 1 rax FE, you don't even have minerals to attempt a fake Bunker pressure and you get only 3 Marines before making add-ons with your Barracks.
On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base?
Honestly it's not a big deal, I doubt Zerg economy is light years ahead compared with gasless 5' third with earlier Queens.
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As a Zerg player when I scout CC first (12 drone scout) I Sometimes go for a baneling bust. I go the usual 15 hatch 17 pool double queen then 2 gas ASAP. I mine 100 gas get speed and then pull 3-4 guys off of gas after I mine another 50 gas and start my bling nest. So far this build has worked for me every time I've tried it which is about 10 times vs diamond KR terrans might want to try defending this kind of bust with a practice partner to see if it's defendable or not with cc first.
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On September 05 2012 22:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base? Honestly it's not a big deal, I doubt Zerg economy is light years ahead compared with gasless 5' third with earlier Queens.
It's a much bigger deal than the ~4 larvae worth of zerglings or roaches that aren't needed to deal with hellions because of the queen change that terran players claimed "broke" the matchup. With good injects, that hatchery 2 minutes earlier is worth ~15-16 larvae.
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I dont wall on low ground, I just go CC first and then 16/17 rax and wall off using 1 supply depot and 2 rax... think it was MKP that I stole it from.
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On September 05 2012 22:17 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 21:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master) With a low ground wall? I can't find a unit tester that doesn't make every building build instantly. But... It looks like you can get 6 zerglings attacking the low ground depot (way more than up the ramp). And they take a little over 10 seconds or so to kill a fully built depot. From your stats, it looks like the depot will still have 20 seconds to build when the zerglings arrive, and since you can't repair a building while it builds it appears you're just going to die. (Or at least have to cancel the CC then quickly wall in at the top of the ramp too and cancel the buildings at the bottom or something. I really doubt you're still ahead after that though).
The supply depot is done. It is the barracks that you are finishing when lings arrive. You can repair the depot.
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EPT
