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![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRw6eLuOa6FhGBG5zB7FKuPgrd0fQxd2s8HUgMs9sbMg9hHjJ9BQ)
^^ You guys are JERKS! <3
Since the advent of the Queendralisk, you may have seen Korean Terrans going CC first and thought to yourself, “What a greedy mother @#$%er!”
Is he?
Here is some research I stole:
How to wall on the low ground:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208
Worker travel time by map:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324475
Slow zerglings travel 5% faster than workers.
Based on these facts, and with the help of sc2planner.com, I have calculated the absolute fastest time that a pack of six zerglings could arrive at the bottom of the ramp to your main. All times are in SC2 seconds.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N0Kn7.png)
Assumptions: 15 CC vs Pool before hatch.
I feel that even with my terrible control and micro, I can hold these. I also feel that I cannot be punished by ANY hatch first build.
My very low level game-plan, with scouting variations:
+ Show Spoiler +10 Depot Scout, 15 CC
(If I scout pool before hatch, hotkey some workers and start second barracks wall at the top of the ramp)
Double gas
Immediate marine and bunker as soon as barracks finishes
Factory on 100 gas
If zerg takes gas before 4:00, do not make a hellion. Make a techlab and get siege mode and a tank immediately and a third command center in base. When banelings show up at 7-7:30, Laugh at them, win.
If no gas until 4 minutes, I do a sloppy 2 port cloak banshee with some hellions wandering aimlessly into packs of speedlings, followed by forgetting my armory at 8 minutes so I take way too much damage from Mutas . From there, my plan is to make the zerg rage as much as possible that I won’t just GTFO of the game for the next 40 minutes because I am so far behind and hope HSM can kill a few broodlords before I die. Any helpful modifications to this plan that you people can offer would be appreciated
It seems like the risk/reward is WAY in Terran’s favor. If Terran made a barracks before CC, Zerg loses with a 6/10 pool. If Terran did not, Zerg MIGHT be able to punish it. They pretty much have to make this bet blindly.
so y u no 15 cc?
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Please feel free to pipe up if you disagree with any timings listed
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i liked it... its true.. you can probably hold them off, since 6 pool is the least likely thing a zerg would do...
but figures, i believe Korhal Compound cannot be walled off in the low ground...
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Mmm... I love posts that have research behind them.
Do you have any stats for the difference between CC-before-rax and rax-before-CC(economy wise)?
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On September 05 2012 12:11 guN-viCe wrote:
Mmm... I love posts that have research behind them.
Do you have any stats for the difference between CC-before-rax and rax-before-CC(economy wise)?
this was done before... there is a couple of posts that i cannot find right now that shows it... i believe you have a 3 worker advantage (aopart from the earlier 2x mule)
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I am pretty sure you can wall on the low ground on all maps with no neutral supply depot
It is hard to get a fixed statistic on economic advantage because in order to do that, I would have to have TWO replays with no mistakes doing the same build but with different timings. In case you didn't read my transitions spoiler... well... there is a reason this is a [D] and not a [G] =)
Also, if a mod can add the word "map" to the end of the title, my copy and paste was evidently incomplete
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What do I do on tournament maps that have that neutral supply depot on all bases that would stop my low ground wall?
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Why are your 6pool times identical to your 10pool times?
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I actually asked this question to myself a few days ago, and with the current metagame there is no reason to not go for CC first every single TvZ.
In 99,9% of my TvZs (in high master EU current season) i went 1rax FE and i've never been attacked with a pool first timing that I could have not hold going CC first.
The only thing though I guess is that with 1 rax expand on the smallest maps you actually can poke with your scouting SCV and the 3 first marines (they're just going to stay in a bunker at your natural anyway) and pick up one/two drones, disturb a little bit the mining, make the zerg overreact a bit by producing a few lings or even get an overlord if you're lucky, because it's approximately the timing where the queen just poped out.
So, yeah CC first is quite logical and not greedy in TvZ I think. Am I wrong ?
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A very good point...
I think the only reason people haven't been doing it is that they're so used to doing 1rax fe.
I personally feel nervous when I'm going for cc first just because I'm always worried about that pool before hatch build.
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On September 05 2012 12:53 anguyenm wrote:
A very good point...
I think the only reason people haven't been doing it is that they're so used to doing 1rax fe.
I personally feel nervous when I'm going for cc first just because I'm always worried about that pool before hatch build.
tbh im not really worried about a 15 pool... i think the cc is done so you can lift and defend properly
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On September 05 2012 12:39 Aro wrote:
Why are your 6pool times identical to your 10pool times?
@#$%
Because I'm an idiot and copied the same column twice. Fixed
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On September 05 2012 12:39 Aro wrote:
Why are your 6pool times identical to your 10pool times?
They aren't? ... You must be looking at the graph wrong.
EDIT : Ninja'ed :d nice research and I agree with this.
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On September 05 2012 12:36 reikai wrote:
What do I do on tournament maps that have that neutral supply depot on all bases that would stop my low ground wall?
I would discuss it in a thread not titled "ladder edition," and also, I worry about it when I am good enough to have a shot at winning a tournament.
Accept that any zerg who 6 pools a Terran (and doesn't know that you CC first every game,) is making a very bad statistical bet. There are lottery winners in this world, and I am happy for them. But I personally don't buy lottery tickets because I understand the math behind it.
But with a 6 pool, your second supply depot starts just as the lings arrive at the bottom of your ramp (180 seconds,) so with even 10 seconds advanced notice I would, hypothetically:
Cancel CC
Start engineering bay as third pin in my wall (quicker build time, will have more HP sooner)
Start second barracks right behind my depot and send (less than 10) scvs to auto repair the supply depot and get a bunker next to that assuming they didn't kill the ebay before a marine pops. Then I wait for the incoming baneling bust with a triple thick wall and accept the Zerg's gracious GG.
Non-hypothetically, I would spam hotkeys while intently watching my worker cross the map. Then, when I notice Zerglings have killed my SCV building the CC, I panic and mash all of the buttons on my keyboard and click furiously while not raising my depot, constructing anything, or even attacking with my workers. Then I would float my CC to the corner of the map and go make a burrito.
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In one of Day9's dailies he showed how you can defend a 6pool when you go CC first. It's in the Teaja daily, it seems pretty simplistic to pull off, but requires pretty good critical thinking and problem solving to work.
Pretty much what ended up happening is that Taeja canceled his expansion on the low ground at the last possible moment to buy himself time, mined as much minerals as he could and then loaded 5 scv and lifted his main CC to another expo. While his other workers pretty much kited the lings across the map. While this is going on you sneak some workers away to build a supply depot and barracks around the map, once you get 3-4 marines you gather up your SCV and clean up the drones/lings.
Also worth mentioning that you never should be afraid of a 6 pool on Shakuras plateau or Entombed Valley since you can just land the command center onto the expansions that are blocked by rocks. It will take ages for the lings to break it down, even if he isn't chasing your scv with all his lings which just gives you more time to get a considerable marine force out.
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The neutral supply depot makes it not worth doing for anyone with any interest in participating in tournaments/competitions.
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Wait so basically, you're saying that I can CC first vs Zerg safely as long as I do the low ground walloff?
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What Ive been doing is building the 10 depot on nat ramp, 15 CC, then wall off with rax - depot - bunker, with 2nd rax in main. Most nats wall off like this, and even if it doesnt - I follow up with a 6 rax +1 push so Im relatively safe against most attacks save for a quick roach bane that I didnt scout for.
Theres really no point in NOT doing a 15 CC once you are in a league where zergs always 15hatch
On September 05 2012 13:55 Janitorwolfman wrote:
In one of Day9's dailies he showed how you can defend a 6pool when you go CC first. It's in the Teaja daily, it seems pretty simplistic to pull off, but requires pretty good critical thinking and problem solving to work.
Pretty much what ended up happening is that Taeja canceled his expansion on the low ground at the last possible moment to buy himself time, mined as much minerals as he could and then loaded 5 scv and lifted his main CC to another expo. While his other workers pretty much kited the lings across the map. While this is going on you sneak some workers away to build a supply depot and barracks around the map, once you get 3-4 marines you gather up your SCV and clean up the drones/lings.
Also worth mentioning that you never should be afraid of a 6 pool on Shakuras plateau or Entombed Valley since you can just land the command center onto the expansions that are blocked by rocks. It will take ages for the lings to break it down, even if he isn't chasing your scv with all his lings which just gives you more time to get a considerable marine force out.
Requires "good critical thinking". Most people would just micro the workers instead of lifting off...really interesting stuff here.
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Against 6pool, why not just wall on the low ground with depot+CC? If the zerg doesn't six pool you only have to move the CC on a very short distance once it's done, if the Zerg 6pool, your low ground wall is already done when Zerglings hit, and it buys you time to complete a rax in your main.
Of course it wouldn't work in tourneys, but if we're talking about ladder would it work?
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Why must everyone Terran go CC first or 1Rax FE just because you can get away with it?
Is Zerg THAT good now at holding off ALL forms of early pressure?
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On September 05 2012 16:21 Thezzy wrote:
Why must everyone Terran go CC first or 1Rax FE just because you can get away with it?
Is Zerg THAT good now at holding off ALL forms of early pressure?
Zerg is THAT good yeah, the multiple queens will do the job. A good zerg will always react in time to the most common early pressure (2 rax, marauder hellion allin, 3/4 rax allin). That's exactly why the last queen buff was made and keeping up in economy to build a strong mid/late game is the new way to go in TvZ.
The only kind of all in I manage to make actually work are timing on two bases around 10-11 min mark (banshee hellion and marines with combat shield on 5 rax, 4reactor and 1 tech lab) when the zerg takes a fast third.
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10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master)
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I actually go cc first now on every TvZ, and i never lost out of a rush(directly).
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On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master)
Even if you have to cancel the cc, which you shouldnt, you will still be ahead.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Whenever I seem to go for CC first I die slightly later to a baneling bust. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, but then again I learnt from Nightmarejoo yesterday my mech build wasn't as good as it could have been, so maybe that's why.
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My drone scout loves attacking your building worker.
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On September 05 2012 20:28 AdrianHealey wrote:
My drone scout loves attacking your building worker.
"You son of a bitch !"
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Just a question why don't more people use the CC as part of the wall? I do it all the time making a fast depot CC rax wall off and have held 6 pools very easily even if you do need to pull a couple of SCVs trying to drone block.
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On September 05 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
Whenever I seem to go for CC first I die slightly later to a baneling bust. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, but then again I learnt from Nightmarejoo yesterday my mech build wasn't as good as it could have been, so maybe that's why.
This happens to me too. When I go bio I die to banelings, when I go mech I die to roach pushs.
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On September 05 2012 19:06 Qikz wrote:
Whenever I seem to go for CC first I die slightly later to a baneling bust. I'm sure I must be doing something wrong, but then again I learnt from Nightmarejoo yesterday my mech build wasn't as good as it could have been, so maybe that's why.
That is why you scout with the worker that made the first depot. If Zerg takes gas before the 4 minute mark (keep your scv alive and running around his base until then) you should make the fastest seige tank possible (no hellion) and make a second wall at the top of your ramp and double thick at the bottom. Send a worker outside your natural at 6:30 - 6:45 and if you see more than a couple lings, send almost all of your workers into your main.
Part of what I like about CC first is that it BAITs busts. They say "You greedy arrogant SOB, only I can go 3 hatch before pool, Ima bust you and teach you a lesson!"
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Basically, (props to Sianos and SC2John) gas before 4 minutes? OVER REACT. It will pay off.
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On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master)
With a low ground wall?
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On September 05 2012 16:21 Thezzy wrote:
Why must everyone Terran go CC first or 1Rax FE just because you can get away with it?
Is Zerg THAT good now at holding off ALL forms of early pressure?
Hellion Banshee expand. Its not like we are ONLY using 15cc or 1rax FE, its just that early pressure isnt that great anymore and hellion banshee expands require quite the amount of multitask
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CC first in TvZ, to me, has the same problems that FFE has in PvZ. You're giving zerg full drone saturation, because there is no chance you can reasonably pressure.
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base?
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On September 05 2012 21:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master) With a low ground wall?
I can't find a unit tester that doesn't make every building build instantly. But...
It looks like you can get 6 zerglings attacking the low ground depot (way more than up the ramp). And they take a little over 10 seconds or so to kill a fully built depot. From your stats, it looks like the depot will still have 20 seconds to build when the zerglings arrive, and since you can't repair a building while it builds it appears you're just going to die.
(Or at least have to cancel the CC then quickly wall in at the top of the ramp too and cancel the buildings at the bottom or something. I really doubt you're still ahead after that though).
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On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
CC first in TvZ, to me, has the same problems that FFE has in PvZ. You're giving zerg full drone saturation, because there is no chance you can reasonably pressure.
? You can use the same Hellions/Banshees follow-up as you would with 1 rax FE. You don't have any earlier pressure going 1 rax FE, you don't even have minerals to attempt a fake Bunker pressure and you get only 3 Marines before making add-ons with your Barracks.
On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base?
Honestly it's not a big deal, I doubt Zerg economy is light years ahead compared with gasless 5' third with earlier Queens.
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As a Zerg player when I scout CC first (12 drone scout) I Sometimes go for a baneling bust. I go the usual 15 hatch 17 pool double queen then 2 gas ASAP. I mine 100 gas get speed and then pull 3-4 guys off of gas after I mine another 50 gas and start my bling nest. So far this build has worked for me every time I've tried it which is about 10 times vs diamond KR terrans might want to try defending this kind of bust with a practice partner to see if it's defendable or not with cc first.
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On September 05 2012 22:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base? Honestly it's not a big deal, I doubt Zerg economy is light years ahead compared with gasless 5' third with earlier Queens.
It's a much bigger deal than the ~4 larvae worth of zerglings or roaches that aren't needed to deal with hellions because of the queen change that terran players claimed "broke" the matchup. With good injects, that hatchery 2 minutes earlier is worth ~15-16 larvae.
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I dont wall on low ground, I just go CC first and then 16/17 rax and wall off using 1 supply depot and 2 rax... think it was MKP that I stole it from.
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On September 05 2012 22:17 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 21:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master) With a low ground wall? I can't find a unit tester that doesn't make every building build instantly. But... It looks like you can get 6 zerglings attacking the low ground depot (way more than up the ramp). And they take a little over 10 seconds or so to kill a fully built depot. From your stats, it looks like the depot will still have 20 seconds to build when the zerglings arrive, and since you can't repair a building while it builds it appears you're just going to die. (Or at least have to cancel the CC then quickly wall in at the top of the ramp too and cancel the buildings at the bottom or something. I really doubt you're still ahead after that though).
The supply depot is done. It is the barracks that you are finishing when lings arrive. You can repair the depot.
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Why not CC first every game? Cuz on KR they will pool you after you open CC first one too many times (usually just once). And then you will lose.
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On September 05 2012 23:25 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:17 netherh wrote:On September 05 2012 21:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:On September 05 2012 16:50 Snowbear wrote:
10 pool actually beats 14 CC. And yes, I've been 10pooled a lot on ladder (high master) With a low ground wall? I can't find a unit tester that doesn't make every building build instantly. But... It looks like you can get 6 zerglings attacking the low ground depot (way more than up the ramp). And they take a little over 10 seconds or so to kill a fully built depot. From your stats, it looks like the depot will still have 20 seconds to build when the zerglings arrive, and since you can't repair a building while it builds it appears you're just going to die. (Or at least have to cancel the CC then quickly wall in at the top of the ramp too and cancel the buildings at the bottom or something. I really doubt you're still ahead after that though). The supply depot is done. It is the barracks that you are finishing when lings arrive. You can repair the depot.
Whoops, good point.
Still, you can fit ~10 lings around the barracks and kill it in 20 seconds, so I'm not sure that helps.
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you can go cc first on every map. vs zerg, even if they go 6pool just scout with ur 10-15 worker (whenever u wanna scout)
if you see 6pool cancel cc built barracks with ur scoutin workers and then built a bunker behind the mineral line ur scouting worker built the rax. and fly their is almost guarenteed win
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I did CC first a lot for about a year. I switched off because it is inferior to builds trying to do damage early on to the zerg and retain the threat of fast tech they have to look out for. It was never a question of whether it could hold off early aggression like the OP makes it to be, rather if it was as good as any other opener.
I think Korean Terrans are switching to it because they can rely on their control and map awareness to fight back in to the game and secure a reasonable 3rd. A bunch of queens is a defensive build yet it forces Terrans to cut corners a lot to keep up economically. In my experience it is harder to deny zerg information, figure out what they are doing in time, keep the threat of attack on them and time your expansions in away that you can stay in the game compared to forcing as much stuff early on as possible and delaying the third base.
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why not CC first every game? Because I think 1rax transitions better into 1rax 4CC, than CC first does. 
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On September 05 2012 22:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
CC first in TvZ, to me, has the same problems that FFE has in PvZ. You're giving zerg full drone saturation, because there is no chance you can reasonably pressure. ? You can use the same Hellions/Banshees follow-up as you would with 1 rax FE. You don't have any earlier pressure going 1 rax FE, you don't even have minerals to attempt a fake Bunker pressure and you get only 3 Marines before making add-ons with your Barracks. Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 22:12 TrippSC2 wrote:
The popular response in the GSL to CC first is 15 hatch 18 hatch before pool. Do you really think that's a better situation to be in for terran is to allow zerg a ~3 minute third base? Honestly it's not a big deal, I doubt Zerg economy is light years ahead compared with gasless 5' third with earlier Queens.
Thing is neither is your economy light years ahead. Rax first is actually really close to CC first in terms of economy.
I just did a test and over an 11 minute build you gain 4 seconds by going CC first, it's nothing.
Also the moment you feel the need to scout on 10 or build a bunker you end up equal or behind a rax first build.
I mean CC first is fine, but it's not better than rax first.
If you can bait out a 6 pool and win then that's fantastic, but most zergs know better.
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You can't bait a 6 pool unless you have played the same person before because they can't scout it.
But I think that playing the same build with a more passive opening is a mistake because of when the econ advantage kicks in. My TvP build is so exact that if I lose more than 1 scv in the first 6 minutes or have to use a scan, I definitely feel like I am dirt poor.
In the other two matchups, I don't have anything figured out yet so I make it up on the fly. But for someone that actually plays more than once a week and doesn't just lurk TL from work and post from their phone, I would think that the extra 3 scvs and earlier mule would make a huge difference...
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1 Rax FE you can kill scouting drones and overlords earlier.
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But for someone that actually plays more than once a week and doesn't just lurk TL from work and post from their phone
Hey =(
I just don't have the time to play a lot.
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On September 05 2012 12:11 guN-viCe wrote:
Mmm... I love posts that have research behind them.
Do you have any stats for the difference between CC-before-rax and rax-before-CC(economy wise)?
at 5:00
12 rax 16 cc (1 depot) 700 mineral income.
14cc (i like it because of rax timing, 15 cc is weird) 1000 mineral income
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does it really worth it going cc first instead of 1rax expand? I mean does the diamond low master macro really benefit from this decision?
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I have a friend that goes roach ling all in at 6:30... how can you possibly hold that? the all in consists of 10 ish lings, 6 roachs and streaming speedlings
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On September 06 2012 04:56 smoosh wrote:Show nested quote + But for someone that actually plays more than once a week and doesn't just lurk TL from work and post from their phone Hey =( I just don't have the time to play a lot.
Lol, I was referring to myself. =)
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On September 06 2012 06:43 xTrim wrote:
I have a friend that goes roach ling all in at 6:30... how can you possibly hold that? the all in consists of 10 ish lings, 6 roachs and streaming speedlings
It leaves at 6:30 or hits at 6:30? 1 hatch or two?
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Yo Ugly, This should help your point.
I am 1450-1500 Masters this season zerg.
and I 12 pool expand nearly every zvt.
Vs 1 rax expand, I can get my 6 lings there in time to kill the scv making the cc, and kill all the rines. Pretty much force the cancel, and I am ahead.
With CC first. My lings get there RIGHT when its done. Then the CC is lifted up, and I am behind.
^_^
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On September 06 2012 06:47 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:43 xTrim wrote:
I have a friend that goes roach ling all in at 6:30... how can you possibly hold that? the all in consists of 10 ish lings, 6 roachs and streaming speedlings It leaves at 6:30 or hits at 6:30? 1 hatch or two?
hits at 630... and 2 hatches... the build is 15h-15p-17 gas.. then speed, then roach warren and flood
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I don't get it. The rax doesn't have time to finish and his lings just kill the rax and then i lose.
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It's just nice to know that someone is actually using my map distance research in a meaningful way.
I had been long wondering if anyone benefited from the work that took me hours to finish.
Thanks for using it
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On September 06 2012 08:25 superbarnie wrote:
I don't get it. The rax doesn't have time to finish and his lings just kill the rax and then i lose.
What's your rax timing?
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I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die.
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Sexy post....I like that you researched the timings. I wonder how much of a eco advantage u get with CC first rather than 1 rax FE (my normal build)
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Better hope future maps can still be walled with just 2 buildings.
Even though you're theoretically able to get away with 15 cc every game, the zerg will still have a small opening, if they do scout you at the earliest possible time, to do 4 hatcheries before a pool. That in itself will pose a serious problem for you to deal with if they're smart about scouting and predicting that the only thing you can possible to do to damage the zerg econ is some drop, banshee, hellion/marauder combo, all of which are basically countered by mass queens/lings and/or mutas.
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On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote:
I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die.
Did you read the OP? I have beaten multiple pool before hatch builds with CC first, and I am terrible...
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On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote:
I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die.
I just ran a bunch of 5 minute custom games with a friend using CC first against a mix of 10, 12, 14, 15, and 16 pools. With a 15 pool you can hold very easily, even on the low-ground, especially if you do the 2rax follow-up that Taeja and MKP do sometimes.
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I don't understand why terran doesn't just CC first every game. It seems if you make it as part of the ramp, even the dreaded nestea 10 pool (that has only been done once in pro play, vs supernova) can be handled. From what I understand, cc first owns early pools too. From my experience, it seems it accelerates terran's build by 30 seconds, ie the first 2 hellions from a 2 gas hellion/banshee come at 7:00 instead of 7:30, banshees 30 seconds earlier, etc.
Way better, doesn't seem to be any risk. Doesn't seem like any risk from the popular metagame builds, for sure. You could always just go depot scv scout like toss does right?
i always go fast third before pool vs cc first, but i dont feel like im THAT much further ahead. seems quite even to 6 queen vs 1 rax FE
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CC first shouldn't make the first 2 hellions any faster at all, and yes CC first allows zerg to be greedy too which wipes out any advantage that you do get.
CC first is fine, it's a good alternative to rax first, but it isn't inherently better than rax first.
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The problem is if a zerg drone scouts (I see alot of it from upper-mid master zergs) and sees what you're doing, he'll go fast 3 hatch before pool and you can't punish him for that. With the 1 rax fe if my drone sees a late pool I'll immediately rally marines over and bunker that shit and at least force a drone pull, many times drone pull + lings + eventual cancel.
Maybe someone more experienced can give some insight into that
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On September 06 2012 13:35 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote:
I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die. I just ran a bunch of 5 minute custom games with a friend using CC first against a mix of 10, 12, 14, 15, and 16 pools. With a 15 pool you can hold very easily, even on the low-ground, especially if you do the 2rax follow-up that Taeja and MKP do sometimes.
hmm could be true, I checked the replays and terrans my drone into ling agression handled very poorly. Sometimes If I go hatch/hatch/pool I add macro hatch as soon as possible. Seems that I can outecon terran at ~8mins.
And I have idea that OC/OC/rax is inferior to OC/rax/OC/additional tech/OC since if you get OC/OC/rax your tech is so late
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On September 06 2012 03:27 Willzzz wrote:
Thing is neither is your economy light years ahead. Rax first is actually really close to CC first in terms of economy.
Sure, but if you can get away with +3 SCVs it's fine.
On September 06 2012 03:27 Willzzz wrote:
Also the moment you feel the need to scout on 10 or build a bunker you end up equal or behind a rax first build.
There's no need to 10 scout or build an early Bunker anyway.
On September 06 2012 04:45 nottapro wrote:
1 Rax FE you can kill scouting drones and overlords earlier.
You won't kill any scouting Drone or Overlord against a competent Zerg.
On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote:
I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die.
15 pool does not kill CC first, at best it forces a lift if Terran didn't go 2 rax after.
On September 06 2012 13:02 imBLIND wrote:
Better hope future maps can still be walled with just 2 buildings.
Even though you're theoretically able to get away with 15 cc every game, the zerg will still have a small opening, if they do scout you at the earliest possible time, to do 4 hatcheries before a pool.
Never seen anyone going 4 Hatcheries before pool, you would only handicap yourself doing that.
On September 06 2012 14:12 Belial88 wrote:
From my experience, it seems it accelerates terran's build by 30 seconds, ie the first 2 hellions from a 2 gas hellion/banshee come at 7:00 instead of 7:30, banshees 30 seconds earlier, etc.
No, timings for first Hellions are roughly the same as 1 rax FE if you go rax 15 gas 16, and ~30 seconds later if you go rax 15 rax 17 then dual gas.
On September 06 2012 14:12 Belial88 wrote:
You could always just go depot scv scout like toss does right?
No real point and messes up with the build.
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On September 06 2012 14:12 Belial88 wrote:
I don't understand why terran doesn't just CC first every game. It seems if you make it as part of the ramp, even the dreaded nestea 10 pool (that has only been done once in pro play, vs supernova) can be handled.
Mmm not quite. Leenock vs aLive in GSL on Ohana. Leenock did 10pool + drone pull and beat aLive who was going for a 1rax expand (aLive didn't get the second depot up to block in time). Maybe it was a 6pool with a drone pull, but that would just be even harder to hold.
I remember MKP also winning vs some zerg in GSL who went for a 6pool when he went CC first.
Early pools vs fast expanding terrans work 1/5 times I've personally witnessed at pro level (a game from aLive, MKP, MMA, TaeJa, and someone else I forget maybe Mvp? aLive is the only person it worked against).
However, the games where it hasn't worked has been due to the zerg player making a pretty large error. For example, letting one scv split up with the pack who then goes back to base and makes a bunker, or letting the orbital land somewhere and start dropping mules while the zerg just mindlessly lets his lings follow SCVs stalling for plenty of time.
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On September 06 2012 21:01 hersenen wrote:
Mmm not quite. Leenock vs aLive in GSL on Ohana. Leenock did 10pool + drone pull and beat aLive who was going for a 1rax expand (aLive didn't get the second depot up to block in time). Maybe it was a 6pool with a drone pull, but that would just be even harder to hold.
Yes, it was 6 pool + drone pull.
On September 06 2012 21:01 hersenen wrote:
I remember MKP also winning vs some zerg in GSL who went for a 6pool when he went CC first.
MKP vs SuHoSin on Ohana. He managed to sneak a Barracks and a Bunker somewhere on the map behind a mineral line.
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Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot?
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On September 06 2012 21:50 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot?
14 cc
15 rax
16 rax
17 scout
double orb
x2 rine production
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On September 06 2012 21:50 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot?
14 CC
16 rax
16 or 17 gas
20 Marine + dual OC
21 Factory
or
14 CC
16 rax
17 rax
20 Marine + dual OC then dual gas before Marines #2 & #3
Second Depot somewhere around 25/30.
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On September 06 2012 23:25 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 21:50 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot?
14 cc 15 rax 16 rax 17 scout double orb x2 rine production
No fast gas?
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On September 06 2012 20:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 04:45 nottapro wrote:
1 Rax FE you can kill scouting drones and overlords earlier. You won't kill any scouting Drone or Overlord against a competent Zerg.
That's conjecture. Even pro zergs lose overlords and drones to early marines.
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On September 07 2012 00:14 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 23:25 shivver wrote:On September 06 2012 21:50 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot?
14 cc 15 rax 16 rax 17 scout double orb x2 rine production No fast gas?
I make my 3rd cc, so no
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