EPT[D] TvZ Ladder Edition: Why not CC first on every - Page 4
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
Even though you're theoretically able to get away with 15 cc every game, the zerg will still have a small opening, if they do scout you at the earliest possible time, to do 4 hatcheries before a pool. That in itself will pose a serious problem for you to deal with if they're smart about scouting and predicting that the only thing you can possible to do to damage the zerg econ is some drop, banshee, hellion/marauder combo, all of which are basically countered by mass queens/lings and/or mutas. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote: I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die. Did you read the OP? I have beaten multiple pool before hatch builds with CC first, and I am terrible... | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote: I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die. I just ran a bunch of 5 minute custom games with a friend using CC first against a mix of 10, 12, 14, 15, and 16 pools. With a 15 pool you can hold very easily, even on the low-ground, especially if you do the 2rax follow-up that Taeja and MKP do sometimes. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Way better, doesn't seem to be any risk. Doesn't seem like any risk from the popular metagame builds, for sure. You could always just go depot scv scout like toss does right? i always go fast third before pool vs cc first, but i dont feel like im THAT much further ahead. seems quite even to 6 queen vs 1 rax FE | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
CC first is fine, it's a good alternative to rax first, but it isn't inherently better than rax first. | ||
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dOraWa
Korea (South)53 Posts
Maybe someone more experienced can give some insight into that | ||
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M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:35 Whatson wrote: I just ran a bunch of 5 minute custom games with a friend using CC first against a mix of 10, 12, 14, 15, and 16 pools. With a 15 pool you can hold very easily, even on the low-ground, especially if you do the 2rax follow-up that Taeja and MKP do sometimes. hmm could be true, I checked the replays and terrans my drone into ling agression handled very poorly. Sometimes If I go hatch/hatch/pool I add macro hatch as soon as possible. Seems that I can outecon terran at ~8mins. And I have idea that OC/OC/rax is inferior to OC/rax/OC/additional tech/OC since if you get OC/OC/rax your tech is so late | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 06 2012 03:27 Willzzz wrote: Thing is neither is your economy light years ahead. Rax first is actually really close to CC first in terms of economy. Sure, but if you can get away with +3 SCVs it's fine. On September 06 2012 03:27 Willzzz wrote: Also the moment you feel the need to scout on 10 or build a bunker you end up equal or behind a rax first build. There's no need to 10 scout or build an early Bunker anyway. On September 06 2012 04:45 nottapro wrote: 1 Rax FE you can kill scouting drones and overlords earlier. You won't kill any scouting Drone or Overlord against a competent Zerg. On September 06 2012 12:12 M4nkind wrote: I think opening cc first is good, but you should do it on the high ground. Since if I go 15 pool you die. 15 pool does not kill CC first, at best it forces a lift if Terran didn't go 2 rax after. On September 06 2012 13:02 imBLIND wrote: Better hope future maps can still be walled with just 2 buildings. Even though you're theoretically able to get away with 15 cc every game, the zerg will still have a small opening, if they do scout you at the earliest possible time, to do 4 hatcheries before a pool. Never seen anyone going 4 Hatcheries before pool, you would only handicap yourself doing that. On September 06 2012 14:12 Belial88 wrote: From my experience, it seems it accelerates terran's build by 30 seconds, ie the first 2 hellions from a 2 gas hellion/banshee come at 7:00 instead of 7:30, banshees 30 seconds earlier, etc. No, timings for first Hellions are roughly the same as 1 rax FE if you go rax 15 gas 16, and ~30 seconds later if you go rax 15 rax 17 then dual gas. On September 06 2012 14:12 Belial88 wrote: You could always just go depot scv scout like toss does right? No real point and messes up with the build. | ||
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hersenen
Belize176 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:12 Belial88 wrote: I don't understand why terran doesn't just CC first every game. It seems if you make it as part of the ramp, even the dreaded nestea 10 pool (that has only been done once in pro play, vs supernova) can be handled. Mmm not quite. Leenock vs aLive in GSL on Ohana. Leenock did 10pool + drone pull and beat aLive who was going for a 1rax expand (aLive didn't get the second depot up to block in time). Maybe it was a 6pool with a drone pull, but that would just be even harder to hold. I remember MKP also winning vs some zerg in GSL who went for a 6pool when he went CC first. Early pools vs fast expanding terrans work 1/5 times I've personally witnessed at pro level (a game from aLive, MKP, MMA, TaeJa, and someone else I forget maybe Mvp? aLive is the only person it worked against). However, the games where it hasn't worked has been due to the zerg player making a pretty large error. For example, letting one scv split up with the pack who then goes back to base and makes a bunker, or letting the orbital land somewhere and start dropping mules while the zerg just mindlessly lets his lings follow SCVs stalling for plenty of time. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 06 2012 21:01 hersenen wrote: Mmm not quite. Leenock vs aLive in GSL on Ohana. Leenock did 10pool + drone pull and beat aLive who was going for a 1rax expand (aLive didn't get the second depot up to block in time). Maybe it was a 6pool with a drone pull, but that would just be even harder to hold. Yes, it was 6 pool + drone pull. On September 06 2012 21:01 hersenen wrote: I remember MKP also winning vs some zerg in GSL who went for a 6pool when he went CC first. MKP vs SuHoSin on Ohana. He managed to sneak a Barracks and a Bunker somewhere on the map behind a mineral line. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On September 06 2012 21:50 U_G_L_Y wrote: Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot? 14 cc 15 rax 16 rax 17 scout double orb x2 rine production | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 06 2012 21:50 U_G_L_Y wrote: Both builds require an SCV cut to avoid or because of a supply block and it pisses me off. It feels bumpy and awkward either way. When are you people that have a CC first build taking your gas, orbitals, second depot? 14 CC 16 rax 16 or 17 gas 20 Marine + dual OC 21 Factory or 14 CC 16 rax 17 rax 20 Marine + dual OC then dual gas before Marines #2 & #3 Second Depot somewhere around 25/30. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:25 shivver wrote: 14 cc 15 rax 16 rax 17 scout double orb x2 rine production No fast gas? | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On September 06 2012 20:41 TheDwf wrote: You won't kill any scouting Drone or Overlord against a competent Zerg. That's conjecture. Even pro zergs lose overlords and drones to early marines. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
I make my 3rd cc, so no | ||
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