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[G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-07 06:32:02
August 10 2012 04:59 GMT
#1
[G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP


Painful setback for Zerg. Yummy moment for Protoss

[image loading]

Introduction
Sim City –the term used to refer to a group of buildings or a part of a player's base, constructed in such a way that they serve more functions than those of the individual buildings, according to liquipedia. While learning sim city is a must for Terran/Protoss, Zerg players often ignore it completely. Careful building placements are almost non-existent especially in ZvP with no speedling/hellion type run-by from Protoss. Often times, tech buildings are thrown down at random locations on creep. Because of this, lategame tech snipe by small Zealot/DT(melee units) squad with warpprism is relatively easy today even at pro level. This entire thread is devoted to sim city(wall-in) for protecting Greater Spire vs Zealot/DT drops like the one in the image above.

Why Greater Spire?
+ Show Spoiler +

Greater Spire is the most important tech structure to defend because
1. Broodlord(BL) is essential for late game army composition vs Protoss.
2. It takes 100sec to make spire, additional 100sec to morph into Greater Spire =200sec to remake greater spire. Most other tech buildings take only 60 or so seconds to remake.
3. It costs 200 200 + 100 150 = 300mineral 350gas to remake. Gas cost is significantly higher than other tech buildings when you remake.

2nd one is probably the biggest reason. It also takes 34sec to morph from corruptor to BL, so it actually takes 200+34 =234sec=almost 4minutes before you can remake BL. Not having to worry about BL remax for as long as 4min is a huge advantage for Protoss. Sure, losing Spawning Pool, Roach Warren, or Infestation Pit hurts as well, but not nearly as badly in terms of both building time and cost.


Zerg Wall-in Mechanics
+ Show Spoiler +

As simple as it sounds, walling-in your greater spire is the best and easy way to defend it from melee units. Without surface area, melee units such as Zealot/DT cannot attack it. Recently, some Zerg players started to do so. However, very few seem to understand walling mechanics in SC2. It is important to know that a 3X3 building DOES NOT occupy area covered by 3X3 square. It actually occupies area covered by the octagon inscribed in 3X3 square.(Footprint Type A in the image below) Spine crawlers and spore crawlers use even smaller octagon(Footprint Type B) unlike similar 2X2 pylon/depot which use Footprint Type A.

[image loading]

Because corners of building grids are NOT blocked by buildings, relatively small units like Zealot/DT can get through in between badly placed 2 buildings, which sometimes go against intuition and graphics. Your walling experience with Protoss/Terran play does not help either because spine/spore are smaller than pylon/depot.

After hundreds of experiments, I found some common combinations of buildings that fail to completely wall-in greater spire. Hole 4&5 in image must be counterintuitive to most players.

[image loading]

These wall-ins are probably good enough in real game situations. A hole that lets only 1 zealot attack is hardly a big problem. However, there is a better way to wall-in without having to invest more. When there is a better way, why bother trying suboptimal wall-ins?


Conclusion: Best way to wall-in Greater Spire
+ Show Spoiler +

There are 3 ways to completely wall-in your greater spire that I could find.
One is what I call “Windmill Arrangement,” the best way.
The other 2 are asymmetric way with spine/spore as a part of the wall.

[image loading]

In-game images
Clockwise Windmill Arrangement
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

Counterclockwise Windmill Arrangement
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

With spine/overseer
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


Those 3X3 buildings looked like sails of a windmill with greater spire as its axis, so I thought windmill arrangement was a nice way to denote what I consider will be the standard play in future. Windmill arrangement is the best way because of several reasons:
1. No spine/spore is used as a part of the wall. Least health for 3X3 building is 750 for evolution chamber, which is still much higher than spine/spore(300/400). 850 health is standard for Zerg tech buildings with 1000 for Spawning pool being the exception and highest.
2. Any 3X3 building spawns 6 broodlings when it dies. These 6 broodlings buy time for as much as 8 seconds unlike spine/spore which doesn’t spawn any broodlings. Extractor doesn’t spawn broodlings, but gas location is impassable anyways.
3. One of the 4 3X3 buildings can be an extractor. In fact, I recommend using extractor as one of the 3X3 buildings because defense for greater spire around the wall-in also defends hive/mineral line/gas effectively.
4. If you do a build that makes a 3X3 building after spire anyways, then literally no additional investment is required to complete this wall-in. Baneling nest, Ultralisk Cavern, or 2nd Evolution Chamber comes to my mind for example.
5. Complete wall-in prevents protoss from target firing greater spire. If he does, then AI gets confused and zealots/DTs dance around the wall. Also, shift-click target firing doesn’t work well either. Shift-clicking one walling buliding first to greater spire second lets those 6 broodlings buy full 8 seconds before zealots/DTs can start attacking greater spire because shift-clicking beforehand prevents them from killing broodlings that push them back.


Possible Cons
+ Show Spoiler +

Whenever there are pros, there are cons as well. However, I believe pros of windmill arrangement outvalue cons. Following are possible cons and my answer.

Con No.1: Your spire location becomes predictable once you prepare other buildings for it.
When you want to do hidden mutalisk tech switch, then probably hiding your spire now is more important than making at better defendable location for later. Other than that, going broodlord in lategame ZvP is no secret. An observer or hallucinated phoenix can find a “hidden” spire location in your base quite easily as well.

Con No.2: Having multiple tech buildings at one location has a risk of losing them all together.
I agree, but at the same time, you only need spine forest at that particular location rather than everywhere in your base. Also, non-greater spire tech buildings are much easier to rebuild. Losing them is not as big of a problem.

Con No.3: You need to invest in a 3X3 building to complete the wall-in after making spire.
Yes. If you have no plan to make any more 3X3 buildings after spire, then it is the investment you wouldn’t have to make otherwise. I usually make 1 evolution chamber to complete the wall even if 3-3 upgrades are already done because evo chamber is the cheapest 3X3 building. In fact, evo chamber is cheaper than 1 spine crawler. I believe 1 evo chamber wall investment is more worth than 1 spine crawler at that stage of the game. If you are rich enough in mineral, making 2nd spawning pool isn’t that bad of an idea for extra 250 health and vs pool snipe.

Con No.4: When extractor is used as a part of the wall, a 3X3 building next to it partially blocks gas mining route.
You always need to carefully choose clockwise windmill arrangement or counterclockwise one depending on the angle of the gas. Sometimes, wrong choice delays gas mining by a lot. I found that counterclockwise version works more often than clockwise version because of current map making tendency.


Experiment: Windmill Arrangement vs Exposed
+ Show Spoiler +

As long as you have decent response, windmill arrangement + spines around are usually enough to deter small Zealot/DT attacks. However, greater spire does die if you don’t have enough spines for DPS or you couldn’t respond in time. So, let’s find out how many seconds windmill arrangement buys compared to exposed greater spire.

[image loading]

When only 2 zealots fit in vs greater spire at Step 2, then it dies in 48sec. (this happens more often)
When 3 zealots managed to fit in vs greater spire at Step 2, then it dies in 38sec.
Unlike 4 Zealots experiments that resulted in either 38sec or 48sec and nothing in between, 8 Zealots experiment results were more diverse. 34sec was the best record among them.

Depending on the number of Zealots, they take around twice or 3 times more time to kill protected greater spire = about 20-35 sec additional time. As long as you have lings/roaches on your side of the map, it is usually enough time to get back in time. DTs significantly speed up the process, though. This is a little known fact, but not only do DTs have better DPS, but also DTs are smaller than Zealots which make them better when attacking from 1 side. At Step 2, DTs are far more likely to attack greater spire in trio than Zealots which usually work in duo and rarely in trio.


Final Thought
+ Show Spoiler +

I do this windmill arrangement whenever my ZvP gets into lategame. I am nowhere near pro level, so my opponent is as terrible as myself. They don’t do zealot/DT harass as often as those pros. Even so, I hardly ever lose my greater spire when it does happen because this wall-in buys so much time for my horrible response time. Therefore, from my perspective, I have always thought pro Zerg players are just too lazy(?) to this simple sim city. I don’t know. There might be actually reasons not to do this, but from what I’ve seen, even pros lose greater spire way too easily with no wall-in or failed wall-in with spines.

I actually came up with this idea when I was playing a custom game called phantom mode. When I turtled in my base with 500 supply in 1v3 situation, my greater spire was sniped by DT warp-ins and I couldn’t remax fast enough because of it. Then, I started to do research on careful tech building placements, during which I found this to be very effective even on ladder.

I hope this helped some players. I did as extensive research as I could think of and my time allowed. Feedback/counter argument is much appreciated.


Orek's Articles/Guides
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler [Article etc.] +

BitByBit Fan Club
A bit on BitByBit
IlIlIlIlIlIl or lIlIlIlIlIlI?
Optimal Creep Spread in Theory
Various Businesses in Starcraft 2
Balance Discussion Math(Best of N format analysis)
Underground Activities in Starcraft 2
Artosis pylon Art
Map Size History & Analysis
Larva disappearing Glitch in 1.5 (not about 20th larva)


+ Show Spoiler [Guide] +

[G] Walling Mechanics
[G] Unit/Structure Selection Priority
[G] ~8% faster gas mining
[G] ZvT Perfect Spine placement vs 2rax Bunker
[G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP
[G]Health Bar Color
[G]Map Distance & Travel Time

jonaa
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands151 Posts
August 10 2012 05:10 GMT
#2
Honestly in ZvP I'm gna start putting my roach and evo in windmill clockwise whatever it is position so once i put down my spire i can full wall it with 2 more. It's a good idea I think losing your greater spire in ZvP can you lose many games.
D:
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
August 10 2012 05:28 GMT
#3
I always do this. It's definitely worth making extra evo chambers to wall off the spire, and generally I'll put at least 5-10 spines around my greater spire and a bunch of evos in the lategame.

Cool charts though, I'm going to start staggering my evo's for that purpose.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
ncsix
Profile Joined February 2012
1370 Posts
August 10 2012 05:37 GMT
#4
Great work as usual orek!
Definitely going to remember to do this more often.
Zerg players in general can get pretty complacent with SIM city compared to the other races, even more so now with the queen patch.

Think you could put a diagram for a complete wall with a spore crawler thats walled in as well? That way, it also keeps DTs visible for the longest possible duration without needing an overseer in place.

Monsyphon
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada190 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 05:46:46
August 10 2012 05:45 GMT
#5
I thought this would just be a guy scoffing about how pros don't do "x", but this is much better, much more detailed and impressive.

RiceAgainst
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1849 Posts
August 10 2012 05:49 GMT
#6
Even though I don't play zerg, this is still a nice read. I always thought that pros were crazy for putting their greater spire between their nat and third sometimes but I figure that it had to do with simcity not being much of an option for zerg. Hopefully we'll see more pros doing this simcity, and when I do see it, I'll remember this!
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 10 2012 06:01 GMT
#7
Nicely put man ... gonna try this laddering this week.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
August 10 2012 06:03 GMT
#8
I'll see if I can dig up replays where I've done this (i mean i do it every game, but an example where I put like 10+ spines down lol). I make over 100 spines by lategame in most of my match-ups, there's just no reason not to do it in extreme lategame, just like terran masses OC's, zerg should always pump up to 100 drones for a second so they can make 20 free spines. 20 spines around a far-off expo just makes it absolutely drop proof, making the immobility of broodlords a non-issue.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
August 10 2012 06:11 GMT
#9
Pro zergs should do this. Makes me wonder if it wouldn't be smarter to put it at the natural, since natural in general has to be defended with spines(sometimes) anyways. Very good guide.
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
August 10 2012 06:18 GMT
#10
On August 10 2012 14:28 Belial88 wrote:
I always do this. It's definitely worth making extra evo chambers to wall off the spire, and generally I'll put at least 5-10 spines around my greater spire and a bunch of evos in the lategame.

Cool charts though, I'm going to start staggering my evo's for that purpose.


"Stagger" is probably the word I was looking for. I couldn't come up with a word that could express the shape, and somehow "windmill" came to my mind first. I hope I am not the only one who thinks it looks like a windmill.
sewergoat
Profile Joined May 2011
United States97 Posts
August 10 2012 06:49 GMT
#11
so funny i was just thinking about this at work earlier today and thought i was a genius. good job for sharing it on tl and nice op!
Silence is better than bullshit
doggy
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany306 Posts
August 10 2012 09:32 GMT
#12
Thx for your work, ive thought about that many times but always forgot about it again after a while :o)
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
August 10 2012 09:36 GMT
#13
very, very nice!
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
August 10 2012 09:38 GMT
#14
I'm guessing you have to make a building AFTER greater spire is morphed because you can't get a drone inside the ring created by the structures?
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 09:42:35
August 10 2012 09:42 GMT
#15
This is a cool as fuck guide to walling in your greater spire correctly. Nicely done!
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
RustySpork
Profile Joined March 2012
United Kingdom49 Posts
August 10 2012 10:16 GMT
#16
this in very in depth, TL needs more guides like this! Thx very much for putting in the time to teach us fellow zergs this nice trick
IMPrime
Profile Joined September 2011
United States715 Posts
August 10 2012 10:26 GMT
#17
i don't even play zerg (i play terran so this literally does not apply to me at all), but this is a nice trick
ThePlayer33
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia2378 Posts
August 11 2012 04:30 GMT
#18
cute~
| Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca |
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
August 11 2012 04:53 GMT
#19
http://drop.sc/236516

here's a recent game I played where i did a sim city, as well as planting tons of spines at my 5th base.

It always amazes me why pros never just go balls out and plant 20 spines at a far off expo, instead preferring to lose it to a single drop of marines about 5 times. Especially on antiga shipyard. It's free for zerg, just make 100 drones, and walla, 30 free spines.

I'll try to find a replay where the sim city is actually an issue though, in this game the toss never did a warp prism harass, dts, or even went to my 5th with anything so there isn't any real practice to it.

It's also nice to lay a creep tumor in your main with a queen with excess energy when it's super lategame hive stage, so you can better plant spines and evo's and such.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Scarlett`
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada2385 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-11 05:22:59
August 11 2012 05:22 GMT
#20
Nice, simple guide. Definately gonna try to do this in ZvPs from now on (just been lazy about it ><)

On August 11 2012 13:53 Belial88 wrote:
http://drop.sc/236516

here's a recent game I played where i did a sim city, as well as planting tons of spines at my 5th base.

It always amazes me why pros never just go balls out and plant 20 spines at a far off expo, instead preferring to lose it to a single drop of marines about 5 times. Especially on antiga shipyard. It's free for zerg, just make 100 drones, and walla, 30 free spines.

I'll try to find a replay where the sim city is actually an issue though, in this game the toss never did a warp prism harass, dts, or even went to my 5th with anything so there isn't any real practice to it.

It's also nice to lay a creep tumor in your main with a queen with excess energy when it's super lategame hive stage, so you can better plant spines and evo's and such.

It would be wonderful if you could spare 3000 minerals to make spines per base in a pro game, wouldn't it ?
Progamer
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-11 06:21:16
August 11 2012 06:18 GMT
#21
^ Yes, when Pro Zergs are on 6 bases, I typically see them bank at least 3k minerals. Also, you don't just make them right away - you make 100 drones, and then about a minute later you make your 'free' 30 spines. This is done by many pros in ZvP macro games, where Zerg will make 100 drones, 4th, hive, infestors, when Toss goes for the third, and then they'll lay down 30 spines so when the 3 base 3+ colossus push comes, it buys that critical ~30 seconds for those broodlords to pop. I think this has been the standard way to play ZvP, Stephano does it a lot and there was even a day9 daily about it (#429).

It's the same concept - make 100 drones, put down mass spines for 'free'. Only difference is instead of using to make a defensive spine wall to buy time, you use it to put down mass spines at expos. You can also, once your broodlords have popped, simply re-root those 30 spines you made for that pre-hive 3 base push, to the bases, since you aren't worried about a frontal attack once broodlords are out.

You just instantly saturate some far off base that would put you at 4+ mining bases, and then after a minute of mining, throw down the 30 spines there. Pros do it every game ZvP for the pre-hive timing, no reason not to do it in extreme lategame when the game is no longer about timings.

If I'm out of place here, then I'm wrong and I'm sorry, but this is how I view it. Obviously you are a much better player, but I do see pros bank money at extreme lategame, and I do see pros lose a hatch over and over to simple harass. Patrolling ~10 ling/bane or putting down a couple spines there I think would be well worth it, as opposed to losing the hatch over and over, that they KNOW is vulnerable to a drop and is the one thing that could cost them the game, and force them to move their sloooow hive tech army (or fast hive tech army, whatever) to protect a base instead of using it to apply pressure to the opponent and deal damage in some form. If 30 spines is too much, you could maybe go with ~5 spines, I don't think 500 minerals is too much to ask when on 6 bases, and just relying on reaction time and having those 5 spines just buy the time you need, or re-root the mass spine wall you made earlier.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
August 11 2012 08:19 GMT
#22
Should try it by placing the spire at the border of the terrain, space/cliff, and wall the rest with buildings.
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
BounCy
Profile Joined November 2011
South Africa3 Posts
August 11 2012 10:00 GMT
#23
Nice guide and interesting read, will try this out more in games. Hate losing my greater spire, takes so long to rebuild!
StoHazzo
Profile Joined June 2012
Italy28 Posts
August 11 2012 10:46 GMT
#24
Old ?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290375
Like a rolling stone
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-11 13:09:30
August 11 2012 13:07 GMT
#25
This is a very cool, VERY good guide!
I'd give you 5 stars for this guide if I could! I will try this later

^_^


Rofl. I had a funny meta game thought If this became standard. You go for your early sim city for a 2 base muta timing. However, you just put a spore there instead and just take your third.
Spec
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Taiwan931 Posts
August 11 2012 13:53 GMT
#26
My take on the subject is to wall with the gas. It's invincible so you lose one entrance point. Then enough spine wall to buy time. I don't think it matters if 1 zealot is hitting it since the queen will be there anyways. Love your diagrams.
Eye for an eye make the world go blind - Gandhi
Nogard
Profile Joined July 2011
Italy40 Posts
August 11 2012 14:03 GMT
#27
On August 11 2012 19:46 StoHazzo wrote:
Old ?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290375



User was warned for this post
jimbob615
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Uruguay455 Posts
August 11 2012 14:56 GMT
#28
nice guide, just one question though... what if they warp in stalkers? o_O
nonsequitur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
384 Posts
August 11 2012 15:06 GMT
#29
On August 11 2012 23:56 jimbob615 wrote:
nice guide, just one question though... what if they warp in stalkers? o_O


Stalkers take forever to kill buildings so there should be no problem getting back in time to defend.
achristes
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Norway653 Posts
August 11 2012 17:11 GMT
#30
Stuff like this seems very obvious, but barely anyone does it :/
Good writeup.
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Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
August 11 2012 18:47 GMT
#31
On August 10 2012 18:38 Targe wrote:
I'm guessing you have to make a building AFTER greater spire is morphed because you can't get a drone inside the ring created by the structures?


Just drop it in with an overlord, ez!
hundred thousand krouner
Beelzebro
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom45 Posts
August 12 2012 00:38 GMT
#32
On August 11 2012 19:46 StoHazzo wrote:
Old ?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290375


Well this guide is better than the thread you linked to so meh.
"as full and bright as I am, this light is not my own and, a million light reflections... pass over me"
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
August 12 2012 05:17 GMT
#33
On August 11 2012 14:22 Scarlett` wrote:
Nice, simple guide. Definately gonna try to do this in ZvPs from now on (just been lazy about it ><)


Wow. You mean that Scarlett is gonna try this out?
From today on, my dream moment is seeing you hold a zealot/DT warp-in thanks to this wall-in. Not that I am the first nor only one who presented this idea, but still, I would feel so honored

Also, I'm glad to know that pros are still lazy :D in some fields, and a scrubby player like myself can offer something to the community as long as enough thought is given.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 13 2012 06:38 GMT
#34
If zergs start doing this I'm gonna have to actually use speed immortal drops to kill that spire >_<.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 12:53:36
August 24 2012 12:53 GMT
#35
Just a question from your suggestions- Why would you build a second pool as part of the wall instead of 3 evo chambers when you're trying to safeguard against your pool being sniped? Surely if they show up and snipe your pool they'll stick around and kill the second one to get to your GS. Of course it buys time, but how much more time than a simple evo really. And if you lose your GS or an evo as well as your original pool, you could always remake it at the location to block in your new GS (as long as you weren't in dire need of immediate zerglings0
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
maracuja123
Profile Joined February 2012
Brazil419 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 13:15:15
August 24 2012 13:10 GMT
#36
I`m high master zerg and what I do (and always work) is put SPORES on the ground limits of my main base, so a warp prism can`t just get through and enter my base. Even if it does that it will have low hp and will die quite easily when trying to make zealots. There are some maps though where this is a lit bit harder and the warp prism can just get out of the way and warp in inside of the base, then I make a lot of spores close to the spire and in range of the other spores, gg, they cant warp in.

And this is a mineral waste only, not a single gas needed. If prottos can make 10 zealots (1k), plus the wp, to destroy my Greater spire, why can`t I use 10 drones to build 10 spores? I might waste a little bit more but it`s late game so I have bank already.

And with that I`ll defend my whole base actually.
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
August 24 2012 20:14 GMT
#37
On August 24 2012 21:53 Probe1 wrote:
Just a question from your suggestions- Why would you build a second pool as part of the wall instead of 3 evo chambers when you're trying to safeguard against your pool being sniped? Surely if they show up and snipe your pool they'll stick around and kill the second one to get to your GS. Of course it buys time, but how much more time than a simple evo really. And if you lose your GS or an evo as well as your original pool, you could always remake it at the location to block in your new GS (as long as you weren't in dire need of immediate zerglings0


As you pointed out, evo chamber should be the first choice.
If you are floating like 3000 mineral, then 2nd pool might be worth it. Otherwise, probably not.
Nowhere in the OP did I strongly recommend using 2nd pool as a part of the wall.

Unless you are planning to transition into ultra/baneling conposition after BL, you usually need no 3X3 building after spire. Therefore, you are forced to make 3X3 building just for the wall. I would say evo chamber is the best choice as it is the cheapest, but when you are rich, why not pool for extra health and insurance. When you look at the big picture, I think it is a trivial matter, though.

Logic.jake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States37 Posts
October 28 2012 08:14 GMT
#38
this is legit

User was warned for crap post
You cool man ?
jnd
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Czech Republic915 Posts
October 28 2012 17:37 GMT
#39
I don't know if you should include this here but the latest HotS patch changed things:

Spine Crawler
This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers.
Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers.
The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7004440896
Team 8 BaBy will be the next Terran Bonjwa in HoTS | HSC V, the best tournament in 2012 | GD Studio #1 no fluff esports show
niilzon
Profile Joined October 2010
Belgium105 Posts
October 29 2012 12:48 GMT
#40
Thanks Orek this is a sweet article that I will apply as soon as I'm back on BNet !! Very "professional" ("scientific") writing, this is appreciated
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 13:09:03
October 29 2012 13:08 GMT
#41
and if those mean protosses just warp in stalker?
sorry for my stupid question but i never reach t 2 :/
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Wilshire093
Profile Joined June 2011
United States31 Posts
October 29 2012 15:18 GMT
#42
Thats pretty smart.
porygon361
Profile Joined August 2012
81 Posts
October 29 2012 15:35 GMT
#43
On October 29 2012 22:08 Bad_Habit wrote:
and if those mean protosses just warp in stalker?
sorry for my stupid question but i never reach t 2 :/


Well, stalkers are weak and die easily to Spine crawlers, while zealots and DTs are more resilient to those attacks and has more damage-for-cost than a stalker ie. a warp in of zealots/DTs are much, much more cost effective than a warp in of stalkers.

It is actually less of a stupid question and more of an inquiry that opens up more possibilities for discussion
"Sometimes life is like this dark tunnel. You can't always see the light at the end of the tunnel. But if you just keep moving, you will come to a better place."
ThirdDegree
Profile Joined February 2011
United States329 Posts
October 29 2012 15:40 GMT
#44
Zergs need to start doing this. Late game, you have resources and drones to burn, put up a few spines and maybe a spore near your spire/infestation pit. I have sniped these a lot for free with zealot drops. Mid game, I can see not wanting to, but it should be standard for late game zerg
I am terrible
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
October 29 2012 17:15 GMT
#45
On October 29 2012 02:37 jnd wrote:
I don't know if you should include this here but the latest HotS patch changed things:
+ Show Spoiler +


Spine Crawler
This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers.
Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers.
The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7004440896

Thank you for the reminder. I can't test it because I don't have a beta key, but it will probably change one thing.
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
In this image, currently Hole2B is incomplete, but new HotS change will make it complete. Hole2A will stay incomplete. Without testing, nothing is for sure, but that's how I think just reading the patch note.

On October 29 2012 22:08 Bad_Habit wrote:
and if those mean protosses just warp in stalker?
sorry for my stupid question but i never reach t 2 :/
On October 30 2012 00:40 ThirdDegree wrote:
Zergs need to start doing this. Late game, you have resources and drones to burn, put up a few spines and maybe a spore near your spire/infestation pit. I have sniped these a lot for free with zealot drops. Mid game, I can see not wanting to, but it should be standard for late game zerg
This is how the metagame should shift:
1. Zerg players start to use this greater spire wall-in ->
2. Protoss players start to use 2 immortal drops to snipe the greater spire
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 13 2012 15:38 Whitewing wrote:
If zergs start doing this I'm gonna have to actually use speed immortal drops to kill that spire >_<.

->
3. Zerg players are forced to leave some lings at main/natural to deal with it becauses spines are useless vs immortals ->
4. Less army supply for BL/infestor slightly favors Protoss players than it does today ->
5. Protoss players start to think that late game PvZ is not as bad ->
6. Less immortal/sentry all-in ->
7. Profit(?)

Stalker is not the answer. Immortal is. Once BL/infestor army is established, immortals Protoss make mid-game vs roaches are basically useless. Suicide mission would be well worth it. Current metagame is way behind the perfect state I envision, so HotS will come out sooner than these shifts, unfortunately.
McTeazy
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada297 Posts
October 29 2012 17:59 GMT
#46
I assume you've tested hole 5, but it doesn't make sense. A zergling tight wall is two building sharing a side of a square on a build grid (except for spines and spores as you mention).

are you absolutely sure you can get in that way?
a person is smart, people are stupid
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
October 30 2012 10:35 GMT
#47
On October 30 2012 02:59 McTeazy wrote:
I assume you've tested hole 5, but it doesn't make sense. A zergling tight wall is two building sharing a side of a square on a build grid (except for spines and spores as you mention).

are you absolutely sure you can get in that way?

ABSOLUTELY
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]


I don't often fail in my researches. Glad someone noticed it, though.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
October 30 2012 10:43 GMT
#48
Just to reiterate on the Immortal thing: they are the best reaction vs this not only because they are ranged and kill buildings ridicolously fast, but most importantly they have no uses in the lategame after the 3base defense/3base timing stage for the P.

This means a P has to trade them in some way vs infestor broodlord, and the greater spire is a prime target. Also, the warp prism allows P to micro vs guarding lings so that's kinda nice.

And i'm very, very afraid of the day this gets standard lol.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
October 31 2012 01:44 GMT
#49
On October 30 2012 19:43 Teoita wrote:
Just to reiterate on the Immortal thing: they are the best reaction vs this not only because they are ranged and kill buildings ridicolously fast, but most importantly they have no uses in the lategame after the 3base defense/3base timing stage for the P.

This means a P has to trade them in some way vs infestor broodlord, and the greater spire is a prime target. Also, the warp prism allows P to micro vs guarding lings so that's kinda nice.

And i'm very, very afraid of the day this gets standard lol.


I've been doing these drops for a while and they're often ridiculously effective, zergs just often don't expect them at all. Get warp prism speed and you can out-run corrupters, and you can even warp in zealots to hold off or deal with lings in small amounts if they don't heavily commit to defending it. It's not unusual for me to kill off not only the greater spire but also the infestation pit or even the hive with this. If they seem particularly out of position you can even warp in a sentry or two and force them to stay out while you pump in zealots. The spines they might have do pretty much nothing with immortals in there. The best part is, as you said, you don't actually care about losing the immortals so you can afford to be a little more risky with them, and a lot of zergs just count on you not risking expensive units and play light on the defense.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Lasbike
Profile Joined January 2011
France2888 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-02 18:28:12
November 02 2012 18:26 GMT
#50
Can someone explain me why pros zergs don't do this ?

Do they know something that we don't ?

Because it's seriously painful to see the best zergs out there (Stephano, Life, etc...) get their greater spire destroyed in every single ZvP late game.
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
November 03 2012 15:50 GMT
#51
On November 03 2012 03:26 Lasbike wrote:
Can someone explain me why pros zergs don't do this ?

Do they know something that we don't ?

Because it's seriously painful to see the best zergs out there (Stephano, Life, etc...) get their greater spire destroyed in every single ZvP late game.


Reasons I can think of:
1. They simply don't know. A 15000 viewer thread is not impactful enough.
2. Placing structures randomly is easier, so they are lazy so to say.
3. They think that randomizing structure placements is more important, which I disagree.

When I wrote the article in August, I thought that it would become the standard soon, but so far, I haven't seen a single pro who does this. It is disappointing that this wall-in which has almost no disadvantage hasn't become the standard play yet.
Lasbike
Profile Joined January 2011
France2888 Posts
November 04 2012 15:57 GMT
#52
Exactly my thoughts.

Anyway, at least, you saved my great spire life in all of my ZvP (I'm top25 master EU), and I thank you for it.
Dray
Profile Joined November 2012
1 Post
November 19 2012 09:45 GMT
#53
Very great guide! I was also wondering what your graphics settings were they look like low low but they seem to have some look to it?
Sweetfrost
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden211 Posts
November 19 2012 10:26 GMT
#54
I really admire you for taking your time to write a long strategic article about this Orek. Thanks for helping out, I think it was a very intressting and sim city tactic.

Well written!
Before practice, we ate Kimchi soup made my MMA. His cooking has made me so depressed that I think we may lose GSTL." -Miya
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