EPT[L][D] Terran Mech: Resources - Page 30
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Tanks aren't reliable vs infestors lategame, or at all really against mass infestor. They're just a decent defensive deterrent during the midgame. Not to mention they're much less cost efficient than ghosts as anti-infestor units; and lategame they become increasingly less useful overall. Ultralisks, Broodlords, and mass burrowed infestors all destroy tanks easily. As defensive options they're only competetive lategame against heavy roach play, and zergs don't mass roach lategame because they suck at that point in the game. Hellion/PF is better as ling-defense, thors are infinitely more useful against broodlords, and are also better against ultralisks (strike cannons or well-positioned defensive targetting). Ghosts have wonderful utility beyond their function of nullifying the infestor threat (as if that wasn't good enough in and of itself). | ||
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
(mech play) | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On December 17 2012 04:17 kollin wrote: If anyone has any TvT mech vods that are at a pretty high level it would be great to link them here! Weirdly, that's the only matchup we're lacking in ^^ http://www.twitch.tv/ministryofwin_morrow/b/345191617 the 2:59:00 game on antiga is a really good mech game vs biomech. Too bad morrow doesn't allow more vods V_V | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 17 2013 09:57 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not going through them to find a specific example, but I always emply Ghosts in lategame tvz, and frequently zergs like to rely on the crutch that is mass infestors really lategame; so consider looking at my replay packs. Tanks aren't reliable vs infestors lategame, or at all really against mass infestor. They're just a decent defensive deterrent during the midgame. Not to mention they're much less cost efficient than ghosts as anti-infestor units; and lategame they become increasingly less useful overall. I really disagree. Tanks remain useful throughout the game, even against Broodlords, precisely because they can deal with Infestors (and Queens); since their 13 range is unmatched they're actually the only ground unit able to kill Infestors beneath or slightly behind Broodlords (Ghosts can't touch Infestors protected by Broodlords and Overseers, they get blocked by Broodlings and die), not to mention splash damage is the only way to deal with Infested Terrans. Hellions help a bit in this department but you can't exactly afford to have 20 of them supply-wise. While sieged Tanks are rather awful against Ultralisks, Ultralisks should come along with Zerglings and Infestors, and Tanks are good against those (BFH can deal with Zerglings but they can't blast Infestors from afar); besides, you can leave them unsieged if necessary, i. e. if Zerg has mostly Ultralisks for one reason or another. If your Tanks get destroyed by burrow play your problem is not Tanks but lack of detection (I always get a Raven above my mech army to prevent such tricks); or you don't have enough Tanks and thus you get submerged, so your problem is still not Tanks but on the contrary lack of Tanks. Upgraded Thors are okayish when the Broodlord count is low, but as Zerg gets more and more Broodlords they become worse and worse, to such an extent they end up absolutely useless. I used to get 7-10 Thors to fight Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors but recently I have much more success keeping a healthy Tank count (15-20) and going mass Vikings/Ravens with only 2-3 Thors to help a bit against Corruptors and soak up damage; Tanks and Vikings guard each other against Broodlords and Infestors. Thors are good against Ultralisks but if you don't have Tanks to kill Infestors he can just use Neural Parasite on your Thors. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On January 18 2013 07:33 TheDwf wrote: + Show Spoiler + I really disagree. Tanks remain useful throughout the game, even against Broodlords, precisely because they can deal with Infestors (and Queens); since their 13 range is unmatched they're actually the only ground unit able to kill Infestors beneath or slightly behind Broodlords (Ghosts can't touch Infestors protected by Broodlords and Overseers, they get blocked by Broodlings and die), not to mention splash damage is the only way to deal with Infested Terrans. Hellions help a bit in this department but you can't exactly afford to have 20 of them supply-wise. While sieged Tanks are rather awful against Ultralisks, Ultralisks should come along with Zerglings and Infestors, and Tanks are good against those (BFH can deal with Zerglings but they can't blast Infestors from afar); besides, you can leave them unsieged if necessary, i. e. if Zerg has mostly Ultralisks for one reason or another. If your Tanks get destroyed by burrow play your problem is not Tanks but lack of detection (I always get a Raven above my mech army to prevent such tricks); or you don't have enough Tanks and thus you get submerged, so your problem is still not Tanks but on the contrary lack of Tanks. Upgraded Thors are okayish when the Broodlord count is low, but as Zerg gets more and more Broodlords they become worse and worse, to such an extent they end up absolutely useless. I used to get 7-10 Thors to fight Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors but recently I have much more success keeping a healthy Tank count (15-20) and going mass Vikings/Ravens with only 2-3 Thors to help a bit against Corruptors and soak up damage; Tanks and Vikings guard each other against Broodlords and Infestors. Thors are good against Ultralisks but if you don't have Tanks to kill Infestors he can just use Neural Parasite on your Thors. This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build. How do you usually open? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:44 gillon wrote: This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build. How do you usually open? This post (second part) should answer your question. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
Yeah, thanks, I actually ended up finding it through your history before your response and read through it, sounds good. On a somewhat unrelated note, when doing your standard hellion banshee opener - do you prefer the CC first or 1 rax FE version and is there a particular reason? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:04 gillon wrote: Yeah, thanks, I actually ended up finding it through your history before your response and read through it, sounds good. On a somewhat unrelated note, when doing your standard hellion banshee opener - do you prefer the CC first or 1 rax FE version and is there a particular reason? The 1 rax FE version, for two reasons: - you can have 3 or 4 Marines in your Bunker while you can have only 2 for a while with CC rax gas, and dealing with 7+ Roaches pressure (or 25+ Speedlings pressure) with only 2 Marines in the Bunker is really horrible; - slightly earlier Hellions. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:24 TheDwf wrote: The 1 rax FE version, for two reasons: - you can have 3 or 4 Marines in your Bunker while you can have only 2 for a while with CC rax gas, and dealing with 7+ Roaches pressure (or 25+ Speedlings pressure) with only 2 Marines in the Bunker is really horrible; - slightly earlier Hellions. What order do you usually do with gases/2nd depot? I usually do 1 marine, CC, 2nd depot, double gas and then resume marine production. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:42 gillon wrote: What order do you usually do with gases/2nd depot? I usually do 1 marine, CC, 2nd depot, double gas and then resume marine production. Usually Marine CC gas SCV gas depot SCV Marine etc. with my SCV building a Bunker after the second Depot is complete (usually I don't SCV scout on 2-players maps); sometimes I use the second depot before dual gas variation. | ||
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
Which one hits earlier / do more dmg? What do you guys prefer? | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On January 18 2013 10:28 KAB00000000M wrote: Is it more effective with blue frame drop or just fast 4 hellion + medivac drop? Which one hits earlier / do more dmg? What do you guys prefer? Non BF drop hits earlier and is usually the preferred way of doing it, since earlier worker kills is more significant worker kills. | ||
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
I would say cc first into siege tank + siege mode is a pretty safe opening. But is it a better idea to get hellions out before the siege tank? | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On January 18 2013 21:37 KAB00000000M wrote: I have seen a lot of replays. Especially TvZ. I would say cc first into siege tank + siege mode is a pretty safe opening. But is it a better idea to get hellions out before the siege tank? Yes. While you're really safe with a tank opening, it leaves the zerg to do whatever he wants because you can't threaten anything. | ||
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
On January 18 2013 22:15 gillon wrote: Yes. While you're really safe with a tank opening, it leaves the zerg to do whatever he wants because you can't threaten anything. Ok. But if the enemy is going 2 base roach all in. Will the fast tank siege mode be safer? Do you know where I am going with this? I feel there is no time to react if you go hellion first. And realize that he is going 2 base all in. Because it comes pretty fast. I have this dilemma every TvZ game. I don't feel I have control of the game. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
On January 20 2013 02:05 Nightmarjoo wrote: CC first into siege tanks is fine if you plan on using a passive banshee-less style; but since you are giving zerg a lot of freedom you have to know your attack windows really well. Cloaked banshee or 2fact with blueflame give you slower expos, but more map presence. Although, I don't know how exactly you'd adapt a siege opening against 2base lair; probably just add 2nd fact and get an armory asap. Yeah the problem is that I feel the zerg go 2 base all in if I hellion open. Or macro when I siege tech expand. By the way. I tried to watch some of the mech replays. TvZ. But the replay was all purple/pink in color. Impossible to watch. Do you know how to fix this? Is it possible to ask for a hellion drop build order? (without blue flame) including expand before or after the drop. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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llIH
Norway2144 Posts
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: You just have to scout their gas timing. Your scv scout should be in their main by around 3:00 to check their build. If they show you gas before your scv leaves you probably shouldn't banshee (2fact or siege instead). Scan at 6:30 to see if they're going lair, all-in tech, or just speedling (even if they didn't show your scv gas). If their gas is fast enough you need to move a scv and put it on hold at the front of your nat (I forget the exact timing, but, maybe 30 seconds before your hellions finish) to give you vision of a speedling all-in if that's what they elect. Having the extra vision gives you the time to move your scvs to your bunker to surround it to defend. If they're going roach all-in and you elected to open hellion something (hellion banshee or 2fact) just make a couple marauders with the techlab while it's on your rax, and have the other building make its own techlab. Low-tech all-ins should be cake, because you can harass and expo easily after you defend them. It's 2base lair builds which can be tough to defend, because they can expo while pressuring you, and to defend you have to give up some of your map control, which can make it hard to expo at the same time. But if you go 2fact against them (which I recommend) you can defend while applying some pressure with a few blueflame hellions. Thanks a lot! | ||
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