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Hey guys if anyone would want to see some TvP mech replays, with a really cool opener, here you go! Its gas first into double expand, it punishes 1G FE pretty nicely.
http://drop.sc/296679
Vs 1g FE on Cloud kingdom. He does the fast 2 base blink build that's supposedly stomps mech players. I hold it off with a combination of frantic micro and him getting apprehensive because he can't lose the observer, so he thinks I have more defenses in my natural than whats actually there.
This replay really shows the power of doing a double expand from a gas first opening. Even though I lose so many SCVS, I actually float over 1000 minerals during the bulk of the harass! And again, to any people who say mech is too harassable, just watch as I stabilize. He keeps trying to harass me, and I send my hellions right into his bases. I repeat this cycle and eventually weasel my way back into the game. He does a miscalculation (very common for people who don't face mech very often) and loses his entire army with me having 4 tanks left and some hellions. I deny his fourth, kill some more probes, then I'm able to finish the game. Insane game where both of us are at 200 APM for the whole game.
http://drop.sc/296678
Vs 1g FE on Daybreak. He does the standard 3g into robo followup from an expand. I harass him with hellions and banshees. Also note that he kept a lot of his probes inside his main until he had enough stalkers. But I still do quite a bit of economic damage with this build, and I am able to get away with a double expand BECAUSE I saw how defensive he was getting. He was even keeping multiple obs with his units even though I didn't have cloak. I still trust my gut and don't reveal my expansion until I have a large enough army size + siege mode. He tries to feign an attack, but I simply run my hellions in from the third when my watchtower hellion sees his army moving out. That move solidified my win, I hold off various attacks and end the game with tank mode a-move lol.
Check out my TvP Hellion Banshee -> Mech guide (forum post in strategy section as well) for more info! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=390846
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I can't watch the replays right this minute, but gas first into double expo seems like you would just get fucked by any aggressive opener.
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On January 20 2013 05:35 kollin wrote: I can't watch the replays right this minute, but gas first into double expo seems like you would just get fucked by any aggressive opener.
THey can't 4gate because my scv stays in their base for too long, and will see it coming a mile away. If they have 2 gas, first 2 hellions go straight to their base. I know right away if they are cheesing (2 gas + missing pylon from first scout + only 1 stalker + a bunch of probe kills while they proxy their stargate.)
Here's me beating a void-ray response played yesterday
http://drop.sc/296691
dark templar is even easier, i already have starport and techlab, and supply depot wall. proxy robo is a little trickier, but I have way more time to scout it (compared to voids) and can deal with it accordingly. IMO the best protoss response is a 3G robo. That way I can't expand until much later, and I'm forced to go 1 base vs 1 base (I basically transition into 1-1-1) and its just like TvP beta again.
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What about an immortal bust?
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On January 20 2013 05:42 kollin wrote: What about an immortal bust? Unfortunately, I have to stop making hellions and do 1-1-1, but basically the protoss has commited to 1 base as well, so alls fair.
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On January 18 2013 21:37 KAB00000000M wrote: I have seen a lot of replays. Especially TvZ. I would say cc first into siege tank + siege mode is a pretty safe opening.
But is it a better idea to get hellions out before the siege tank? Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible if you intend to go mech; triple OC defended by fast Tanks is dubious but possible with biomech for various reasons, but Hellions/Banshees is vastly superior for mech: Tanks are slow, expensive, provide no map control/presence, don't force anything from Zerg and delay your Armories and/or additional Factories. Hellions/Banshees can defend any pressure/all-in (even if you lose some SCVs) and, even more importantly, they allow you to strike back after Zerg fails, thus hindering his development and scouting his follow-up; if Zerg tries to pressure with, say, 8 Roaches and is welcomed by a sieged Tank shot, sure you take no damage but he just retreats and presses the D key for 3 minuts and you can't do anything about it (see example below) while you're left in the dark about his subsequent plan.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: You just have to scout their gas timing. Nope, you can't know:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 21 2012 11:10 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 19:09 Bwall wrote: What do you look for when you scv-scout in TvZ(let's say it's a 2-player map, so we know where he spawned)? I can't really understand the gas timings, because sometimes people just go for a fast lingspeed to be safe, and with the same gas-timing it might be a 5-7 roach rush. The scout doesn't always survive long enough to see if he mines >100 gas, and the zerg could also pull off drones from gas for a few seconds to trick me. Zergs always open 15 hatch, and I don't go cc first so 3rd hatch before pool is out of the question. You can really never know for sure if they are going speedling allin, speedling expo, ling/bane allin, roach timing, roach/ling allin, or roach/bane/ling. All you can really do note what is possible from the gas timing. i,e, if they get gas around when pool finishes, it will be something 7 mins +, while if they go gas pool, you have to account for a 1 or 0 queen 550 baneling bust or 630 40 ling runby. Another possibility, map dependent, is leave an scv in front of their ramp so you can have advance warning if units stream out.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: If they show you gas before your scv leaves you probably shouldn't banshee (2fact or siege instead). Why? Hellions/Banshees can hold all the aforementioned attacks and allow you to take the initiative after his possible attack while Tanks are static and give Zerg free reign to drone unchallenged. See Polt vs viOLet, Entombed Valley, IPL5: viOLet goes for some Roach agression and is met with Hellions and a Tank; his push does nothing (killing 5 SCVs, not a big deal) but since he saw Polt's opening was passive, he drones at his heart's content and here was the result 2 minuts later. (Thanks to KawaiiRice for screenshots.)
And Polt had zero way to punish this. viOLet had scouted Polt's early third but it would be the same with a 2 Factories build anyway: no Terran is going to push on the map with 3 Tanks to punish… punish what anyway since you have no way to know what he's doing without Banshees to repel Roaches? At best you can drop 4 BFH as soon as possible but it's way less threatening than Hellions/Banshees pushing back as soon as the Roach agression is held.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: Scan at 6:30 to see if they're going lair, all-in tech, or just speedling (even if they didn't show your scv gas). Early Scans are generally horrible, (a) because they weaken your economy and (b) because they're not even reliable: you don't know where he's making buildings and/or Lair. They may see everything, they may see nothing, they may see something… But what?
What is he doing? (2360 gas left in each geyser; I did not cut anything with the resizing, there was nothing else to be seen. And I do mean nothing.)
Some scans are more puzzling than helpful because they can be interpreted in entirely different ways, from an all-in to standard macro play.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: If they're going roach all-in and you elected to open hellion something (hellion banshee or 2fact) just make a couple marauders with the techlab while it's on your rax, and have the other building make its own techlab. Marauders are unnecessary when going Hellions/Banshees after the 1 rax FE variants since you have 3 (sometimes with the possibility to get a fourth in time) or 4 Marines in your Bunker. With CC rax gas one blind Marauder (before swapping Barracks and Starport) upon scouting gas is a possibility since otherwise you have only 2 Marines tickling Roaches, but you should start Banshees as soon as possible instead of making more Marauders (same problem as Tanks: Marauders defend but cannot counter/punish, plus they're useless with mech).
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: It's 2base lair builds which can be tough to defend, because they can expo while pressuring you, and to defend you have to give up some of your map control, which can make it hard to expo at the same time. But if you go 2fact against them (which I recommend) you can defend while applying some pressure with a few blueflame hellions. What pressure? You can't apply pressure with BFH against Roaches; and even if he's too lazy to sacrifice an Overlord and thus scout your 2 Factories build, a simple wall is all it takes to nullify any BFH pressure. Hellions/Banshees is better, you can adapt your follow-up depending on what you scout without committing to early BFH (which shows your hand too fast on top of other drawbacks) or Tanks.
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Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible Well, that you don't like it doesn't mean it's inviable. Gumiho frequently uses this kind of opening.
Nope, you can't know He said he was having trouble against all-ins using hellion openings. Stopping an all-in requires being knowledgeable of it (either specifically knowing what is coming or knowing what you can't rule out and must prepare for) and adapting properly. First step is checking whether or not he gases. Your scv scout does this one, and the 6:30 scan confirms. If he doesn't have gas at either timing then he isn't going all-in. If he does have gas a multitude of builds are possible, including all-ins. You can't guarantee to scout his 3rd base with your scv if he's not going all-in; and even if you are able to scout an absence of a 3rd base when he should have one if he wasn't going all-in it doesn't rule out the possibility that he either is going for a build which involves multiple simultaneous extractors before 3rd base (but still isn't all-in) or that he simply made his 3rd hatch in his main/nat. Thus you need more information.
If he showed you gas and didn't speedling all-in the 6:30 scan shows how much he mined from that extractor. The odds of zerg anticipating your scan and stopping at 100 gas mined on the one extractor in main while proceeding to take both nat extractors to deliberately hide their tech build are very fucking low. If he showed you no gas it's my experience that zergs are more likely to take their main extractor(s) first because they're less susceptible to lucky scv scouts. Furthermore if you are able to get an scv to their third at this time to confirm no expansion but your scan in main also sees no extractors you can extrapolate that gas in their nat is a distinct possibility. Slightly hurting your build to prepare for all-ins in this case won't give you a disadvantage since even if he elected to just get a 3rd hatch in his nat he's still delayed his actual expansion, and thus the gas income which makes useful units.
Marauders are unnecessary when going Hellions/Banshees after the 1 rax FE variants since you have 3 (sometimes with the possibility to get a fourth in time) or 4 Marines in your Bunker. With CC rax gas one blind Marauder (before swapping Barracks and Starport) upon scouting gas is a possibility since otherwise you have only 2 Marines tickling Roaches, but you should start Banshees as soon as possible instead of making more Marauders Roach and baneling (not both together) all-ins hit before banshee is out, but most hit about the time your first Marauder finishes if you build it with your techlab and have the port make its own techlab. A second marauder further helps you defend in case zerg is rallying more roaches, and does not in the least bit delay your banshee. Cloak, yes, the Banshee, no. 30 seconds of free shots on your depots/repairing-scvs is accepting unnecessary damages that could be prevented by making the Marauder. A second will be more situational, but even if unnecessary isn't a big loss. Yes Marauders aren't reliable for counter aggression (not that they can't ever be used this way though), but your banshee isn't countering while it's cleaning up roaches in your base (which is a very slow process). Having both speeds this up if nothing else. Also we're talking about cc-first, so we don't have 4 marines, and our banshee is 10 seconds slower than that of a 1rax cc gasgas depot build. edit: Also you mention that Marauders are useless with mech, but that's not really true. MMA for example has used a marauder/mech build before.
Why? Hellions/Banshees can hold all the aforementioned attacks... Yes Hellion/Banshee can hold lowtech aggression; those aren't what I'm worried about. They fare very poorly against fast 2base muta; which isn't to say that they can't defend it, because they absolutely can; but while defending muta they cannot stop zerg from taking his 3rd (before he starts the muta in fact) and also cannot simultaneously take their own 3rd; the end result being zerg having map control and a significant economic advantage.
What pressure? You can't apply pressure with BFH against Roaches I may not have been clear, but again I have 2base muta in mind when I say this. A 2fact opening can much more easily make the thors necessary to defend muta (defend and also secure a 3rd base; turrets can help with the former but not the latter), and has the capacity to also make some hellions to apply some harassment/claim some map control while you are defending the mutas (or making him use his mutas on the wrong side of the map, giving you room/time to expand).
If you scout gas, you are aware that mutas are a possibility. The 6:30 scan can either explicitly scout 2base lair or fail to rule it out (especially with conjunction with an scv scout at their 3rd). Since hellion/banshee is bad against this (gives them free map control + 3rd) there's no reason to risk the possibility of effectively having a build order loss by going hellion/banshee against a gas opening. So if your scv scouts no gas feel free to hellion/banshee; and then the 6:30 scan lets you know whether or not you need to adapt the build against a lowtech all-in or 2base lair in the cases where he opted to get gas after your scv left (and of course moving your scv out of their base and then back in can frequently catch this attempt at misinformation unexpectedly). If you scout gas why use a build which is harder to adapt to the possibility of 2base muta than one which is not only easier, but has equal merit in the other possible scenarios to that of hellion/banshee (3base, lowtech all-in).
In general I agree with your account of why early scans are unreliable, with the exception of cc first into mech against zerg. The options zerg have that threaten you are inherently susceptible to being scouted at this timing because of their gas needs to employ them. Your screenshot doesn't show the whole picture. I don't mean that literally; I'm not saying you cropped it. There's more information I would have (and I would scan the main anyway) from what my initial and possibly secondary scv scout(s) saw, from my knowedge of the opponent, and of the map and from what I know my opponent is aware of. I agree that if you had literally only the information from that scan you would know very little, but that's impossible. For example your screenshot leaves out what's going on just in front of his nat which could be informative, whether or not he's taken a 3rd which could be informative (though I doubt he had done so in this particular game given his gas mined, though it actually isn't impossible). I also don't know whether or not my scv scout saw any gas in his main initially. However it seems likely to me that the absence of queens in his nat is not because he has 2 queens just outside his nat spreading creep, but that he did not in fact make more than two queens. Thus from his gas mined it seems likely to me that he is not doing a roach + bane all-in, but is doing something on 2base lair, most likely 2base muta since I'm assuming he's not spreading any creep (making a roach/bane build and a roach/queen/nydus build both less likely; the former because creep spread reinforcement, and the latter because even though nydus doesn't need creep spread he'd still be spreading creep with his extra queens). Since he has no tech in the nat I'm going to assume he also has gas in the main, because if he were trying to give you misinformation by having no gas in his main he would also have no tech in the main, but since we can see he has gas but not tech in his nat then he either has gas and tech in the main, or has expanded and is pooling gas for a wave of roach after making some drones for his 3rd (or is making roach now with his 3rd, and will make drones only after a wave of roach, which if I'm correct that he has no extra queens spreading creep outside your screenshot, is mineral-possible).
At anyrate I'm much less concerned with being tricked into being too safe and much more concerned with not dying. You're welcome to play differently if you'd like. My advice to him was not intended to be the holy grail of information on how to not lose early-game, but rather some basic steps he can employ to alleviate his problems. His problems are "[losing to] a 2base all-in if [he] goes hellion open", so I gave advice which I know from firsthand experience can help prevent losing to 2base all-ins given his opening (cc first) and style (mech).
I'm not sure what the point of your post is; you seem to be advocating blindly using builds which do have some vulnerabilities without making any attempt to scout or prepare for those possibilities. Hellion/Banshee is a wonderful opening which gives a strong economy, good map presence, harass potential, creep-spread-limiting-potential, and scale well into the rest of the game as they accumulate (becoming increasingly more useful as the zerg spreads out giving you more opportunities to exploit). However it is not the only such build to have such utility and efficacy, and if employed blindly as if in a vacuum does not inherently beat every possible build zerg can do; i.e. that it's a good build doesn't mean other builds aren't equally viable, and it isn't a perfect beat-all build. It however is a great build for practicing multi-tasking and learning mech by and I absolutely recommend it to those aspiring to use and improve in employing the mech style against zerg. However if he's having such a hard time with "hellion openings" that he's considering siege openings instead (which I still insist are viable, even if I do not personally use them or have much experience in using them for exactly the limitations that you described), then maybe he would be able to ease into hellion/banshee by first utilizing 2fact, which I maintain is safer in a vacuum considering all the possibilities zerg can throw at you, and may be easier for someone to learn mech by-- hence my advice.
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I'd like to see those gumiho tank builds, if you have any vods, because I've never seen him rushing tanks after expo.
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Tanks after expo is super strong against early aggression
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And only early aggression.
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I'm pretty sure he did it in gstl on atlantis vs I don't know who, for example. His opponent was not aggressive. It was during his 3kill or all-kill; something like that. He used the same build against another zerg in the same match if I remember correctly.
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But can't you apply pressure with the tanks + some marines or is that a completely other build?
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Not if you're going mech, because you don't want to build marines.
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Is it possible to pressure with the hellions + tanks? or is it too late?
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Well you won't have siege or blue flame or many tanks before they can just pump out roaches, so yeah it's too late.
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On January 21 2013 04:05 kollin wrote: Well you won't have siege or blue flame or many tanks before they can just pump out roaches, so yeah it's too late.
ok thanks
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On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Well, that you don't like it doesn't mean it's inviable. Gumiho frequently uses this kind of opening. Please don't cut a relevant part of the quote: Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible if you intend to go mech; triple OC defended by fast Tanks is dubious but possible with biomech for various reasons. I know GuMiho plays them sometimes, and Bomber too (systematically going Marines/Tanks afterwards); but simply because pros use the opening does not make it any less questionable, you have to examine the objective strengths/weaknesses of the build: pros frequently use suboptimal builds for various reasons. It's not about “me disliking them,” it's about what you get vs what you give up. Those builds had already been discussed in the Pro Terran Strategy Q/A thread so I'll just be lazy and quote Ver:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 06:50 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 10:28 SHODAN wrote:On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about. Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1. I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested. GSTL Season 2, Gumiho vs. SealWCS Korea, Gumiho vs. SoulkeyWCS Korea, Gumiho vs. Effort Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit. Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta.
The idea behind triple OC + Tanks → Marines/Tanks is that Tanks are able to protect your ambitious opening, i. e. fast third and fast dual upgrades, and you can't emulate this with mech (the fast third is of little use because mech is not able to use the extra minerals with Barracks + Marines, and early Tanks + dual Armory woud make the build as dynamic as a caterpillar tractor).
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Stopping an all-in requires being knowledgeable of it (either specifically knowing what is coming or knowing what you can't rule out and must prepare for) and adapting properly. No, going 1 rax CC gas gas depot → Hellions/Banshees with no SCV scout I never had any problem holding Speedlings pressure/“all-in,” Roaches, Roaches/Speedlings, and of course Roaches + Baneling bust. That's the point, the build is tailored to hold any of those things without even needing to know beforehand if and when he took gas or which units he's making. CC rax gas is more vulnerable due to having only 2 Marines + slightly delayed Hellions, so if the problem is here he can just play 1 rax expand instead.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: If he showed you no gas it's my experience that zergs are more likely to take their main extractor(s) first because they're less susceptible to lucky scv scouts. Yes, no, maybe. I have no statistical data about this; some Zergs will take their gas and make their tech buildings in the main, some will do the opposite, some will mix, so you're essentially rolling the dice. Regarding the SCV sacrifice issue you will not see anything in his natural with 2 Queens in front of his base anyway.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Also we're talking about cc-first, so we don't have 4 marines Already adressed this point in the quote to which you answer.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Also you mention that Marauders are useless with mech, but that's not really true. MMA for example has used a marauder/mech build before. Didn't see the games or don't remember them; I suppose you mean Hellions/Thors/Marauders? I don't call this mech, but anyway it's terrible; I had a period in which I played this, then I ran into a cleverer Zerg who bothered to research Neural Parasite, and I never ever made this mix again. Totally inferior to Tanks. (Just saying.)
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: I may not have been clear, but again I have 2base muta in mind when I say this. (1) A 2fact opening can much more easily make the thors necessary to defend muta (defend and also secure a 3rd base; turrets can help with the former but not the latter), (2) and has the capacity to also make some hellions to apply some harassment/claim some map control while you are defending the mutas (or making him use his mutas on the wrong side of the map, giving you room/time to expand). (Added marks so I don't have to split the quote in two.) (1) Why? You're supposed to see a Spire before making Thors, or you can make them blindly if you're not able to rule out Mutalisks, but I don't see why an appropriate follow-up to Hellions/Banshees could not do that either. (2) And Hellions from a Hellions/Banshees opening somehow cannot do that? How so?
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: If you scout gas, you are aware that mutas are a possibility. Mutalisks are a possibility whether he opens gas or gasless; the only thing a delayed dual gas build cannot do is a supersonic 4'30 Lair (which are bad and rare anyway), otherwise he can take dual gas after SCVs leaves his base and go ~5'00 to 5'30 Lair, or take dual gas at 5'10 and go 6'10 Lair, or take quad gas at once and go 6'30 to 7'00 Lair. Basically scouting gasless means you can rule out pre 5'00 Lairs and that's all. (Just saying.)
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: The 6:30 scan can either explicitly scout 2base lair or fail to rule it out (especially with conjunction with an scv scout at their 3rd). (1) Since hellion/banshee is bad against this (gives them free map control + 3rd) there's no reason to risk the possibility of effectively having a build order loss by going hellion/banshee against a gas opening. So if your scv scouts no gas feel free to hellion/banshee; and then the 6:30 scan lets you know whether or not you need to adapt the build against a lowtech all-in or 2base lair in the cases where he opted to get gas after your scv left (and of course moving your scv out of their base and then back in can frequently catch this attempt at misinformation unexpectedly). (2) If you scout gas why use a build which is harder to adapt to the possibility of 2base muta than one which is not only easier, but (3) has equal merit in the other possible scenarios to that of hellion/banshee (3base, lowtech all-in). (1) What? When Mutalisks are out you have no map control anyway (you can have map presence with Hellions and even Banshees to some extent, but if he wants to chase them you'll have to retreat) regardless of the build you use, what possible difference could a 2 Factories build make regarding this point? Zerg can always take a third, again what possible difference could a 2 Factories build make regarding this point?
Hellions/Banshees, risk of build order loss against a gas opening? Please. As I'm constantly repeating these days if you die to 2-bases Lair your problem does not lie in Hellions/Banshees but (a) in your (lack of) scouting and/or (b) an inadequate follow-up. It's like saying 1 rax expand dies to 2-bases Colossi all-ins in TvP when in truth your problem was that you built your third out of 3 rax and went dual Reactor on your Barracks; the problem is not the core of the build order but the branch you chose after.
You seem to misunderstand what Hellions/Banshees is; it does not mean being forced to continuously produce Hellions and Banshees nor does it even mean being forced to get Cloak, so there is a lot of flexibility depending on what you scout, therefore you can adapt your follow-up to the information collected by Hellions and your Banshee(s): for instance against 2-bases Mutalisks you can skip Cloak, cut Banshee production and go either CC fact fact armory or CC armory fact fact and your Thors will be out in time (or nearly so and Turrets cover your base), and you won't have any extra particular trouble to secure your third.
If Zerg played a supersonic (pre 5'30) Lair and your additional Factories are not yet ready, you just swap Factory with Starport and get 2 Vikings while your Armory is in construction, with a few Turrets it should be enough to hold his weak initial Mutalisk wave: even a 4'30 Lair cannot get Mutalisks in your base before ~8'30 so you have ample time to react since your first Hellions can scout his lack of third then his suspiciously empty (or a surprisingly hasty wall with a Spine) natural's front at ~6'45. Not mech-related but see Polt vs Golden, Cloud Kingdom, NASL4: Polt's first Hellions were late, he didn't even see Mutalisks before they hatched and still he was able to defend them.
(2) Nope it's not harder to adapt, it comes down to scouting and in this regard Hellions/Banshees is superior (because you have an air unit earlier, so you can fly around/over his bases, and you can still scan if you feel it's too dark). Isn't there a Bogus vs HyuN game (the third), Bel'shir Vestige, which exemplifies this? Can't remember for sure if it was 2- or 3-bases Mutalisks but I think Bogus opened with 2 Factories BFH, failed to scout or prepare for Mutalisks in time and died anyway, so it's not a matter of core build order. Both Hellions/Banshees and 2 Factories can handle 2-bases Mutalisks with proper scouting and deviations.
(3) On the other hand adapting to Roach agression with 2 Factories is harder because you need to deviate (the original plan with this build is a mass BFH attack, if you get Tanks anyway regardless of what your opponent is doing you're playing overly safe), and thus have intel, and you may not have said intel in time. (See below.)
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Your screenshot doesn't show the whole picture. I don't mean that literally; I'm not saying you cropped it. There's more information I would have (and I would scan the main anyway) from what my initial and possibly secondary scv scout(s) saw, from my knowedge of the opponent, and of the map and from what I know my opponent is aware of. True. But my point was that sometimes, you will not be able to know for sure since some build orders can look identical while requiring opposite reactions, so you will be forced to roll the dice.
For the story:
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Thus from his gas mined it seems likely to me that he is not doing a roach + bane all-in That's precisely what he was doing (Bomber vs Symbol, Ohana, IPL5). To be totally fair you would have probably known with a SCV noticing lack of third and your 6'30 scan in the main; Symbol had opened gasless by the way.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: At anyrate I'm much less concerned with being tricked into being too safe and much more concerned with not dying. Sadly that's the same thing against Zerg, the only difference being that your death animation takes longer to complete in the first case; if you're overly safe while Zerg develops at top speed you fall behind, and if you fall behind you lose due to Zerg being Zerg. Not mech-related but see Bomber vs Bly, Entombed Valley, IEM GamesCom: after the opening Bomber is convincingly ahead but he fears some kind of agressive follow-up, plays overly safe and thus Bly simply catches up and has the right to play a 50 minuts macro game despite initially losing his Hatchery to a non-committed 12/12. Now imagine the same kind of scenario with both players being equal in skill and set on equal footing before Terrans enters the “overly safe” phase and you can easily figure what is bound to happen. Playing too safe while it's not required is a bad thing, otherwise 2gR expands would be standard in PvT.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not sure what the point of your post is; you seem to be advocating blindly using builds which do have some vulnerabilities without making any attempt to scout or prepare for those possibilities. Hence the second part of this post probably: the epitome of blind, non-reactive play for sure.
The point of my post? Quite straightforward: why are you advocating inferior builds with clear coinflip issues when Hellions/Banshees can defend anything (i. e. tier1 agression, tier2 agression is a matter of transition) without requiring a PhD in Zerg hermeneutics, has a stronger economy, a better initiative and is not punishable?
Just look at the following comparison and tell me, where does 2 Factories shine? (By the way, to me 2 Factories = Reactor Hellion → second Factory with Tech Lab → 6'50 Starport if not pressured, e. g. the build order Mvp used in his first game vs Life; please precise if you mean something else so we don't misunderstand each other because we talk about different build orders.)
(Best economy because of earlier third.)
In short 2 fact BFH may be marginally better to metagame an opponent going Speedlings → third (which is why Mvp used it against Life since he often plays this way) without sacrificing an Overlord and that's all; against everything else it's worse/slower/coinflippy.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: However if he's having such a hard time with "hellion openings" that he's considering siege openings instead (which I still insist are viable, even if I do not personally use them or have much experience in using them for exactly the limitations that you described), then maybe he would be able to ease into hellion/banshee by first utilizing 2fact, which I maintain is safer in a vacuum considering all the possibilities zerg can throw at you, and may be easier for someone to learn mech by-- hence my advice Is he using the safest one (1 rax CC gas gas depot) instead of the more ambitious and therefore more vulnerable CC rax gas? Is he executing those Hellions openings correctly? Last time someone asked for another build order to defend Roaches/Speedlings his Bunker was naked one screen ahead of his natural, he was lacking 10+ SCVs and had 0 Hellion by the time Zerg attacked, plus his Banshee was not even started, so the problem was obviously not the build order itself but the execution. This is something worth checking before recommending alternative build orders, especially below Master level.
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That last diagram really helps. Thanks.
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Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible if you intend to go mech In the games I'm talking about, Gumiho is going mech! Why is this so hard to believe? In one particular gstl match where he all-killed he used this build on atlantis and won; and then used the same build against another zerg in the same match and won again.
No, going 1 rax CC gas gas depot... We are discussing CC first here, not 1rax CC!
CC rax gas is more vulnerable due to having only 2 Marines + slightly delayed Hellions, so if the problem is here he can just play 1 rax expand instead Or... he can continue to use the build which has a very significant economic advantage to 1rax cc (faster 3rd and higher scv count or faster banshee, depending on the gas timing after 1rax cc) and simply heed my advice which is tailored to this build, NOT 1rax cc!
Regarding the SCV sacrifice issue What sacrifice? If your scv is in his main by 3:00 (which is when I recommended) you can scout everything, leave, and then dip right back in and get out before queens are up yet, baiting him to gas the moment you leave.
(1) Why? You're supposed to see a Spire before making Thors, or you can make them blindly if you're not able to rule out Mutalisks, but I don't see why an appropriate follow-up to Hellions/Banshees could not do that either. (2) And Hellions from a Hellions/Banshees opening somehow cannot do that? How so? What? Propose how you can possibly see a spire in time to adapt if you find out he went 2base mutalisk is when your banshee arrives (which should arrive shortly before his mutalisks hatch) if you aren't scanning at 6:30 (which is when your port is ~50% done). With CC first you afford 3rd cc right after you get banshee and cloak (if you elect to get cloak); your build is going to be severely compromised if you only find out some 30 seconds after you start 3rd cc that he has mutalisks on the way. If you find out he's going mutalisk with your banshee you at best can maybe get turrets up in-time, which will delay your armory and thor production greatly-- making securing a 3rd impossible for a long period of time. In what universe is that a preferable scenario to the one I describe where we scout on-time and adapt in the optimal manner?
Mutalisks are a possibility whether he opens gas or gasless; the only thing a delayed dual gas build cannot do is a supersonic 4'30 Lair (which are bad and rare anyway), otherwise he can take dual gas after SCVs leaves his base and go ~5'00 to 5'30 Lair, or take dual gas at 5'10 and go 6'10 Lair, or take quad gas at once and go 6'30 to 7'00 Lair. Basically scouting gasless means you can rule out pre 5'00 Lairs and that's all. (Just saying.) And the 6:30 scan confirms/denies the possibility of 2base muta.
...what possible difference could a 2 Factories build make regarding this point? The difference is, instead of having a starport whose only value is in making addons and possibly a banshee you cannot get any utility out of for most of the game in addition; you have a second factory with a techlab on it to get blueflame while you make your armory and can begin 2thor production to defend the mutas (AND secure your 3rd, which 1fact thor production can't as effectively do) sooner than you could than if you had wasted money on your port. The difference is you have blueflame hellions instead of regular hellions, so the small number you have after switching to thor production are more effective if you can get them around his mutalisks.
Hellions/Banshees, risk of build order loss against a gas opening? Please. As I'm constantly repeating these days if you die to 2-bases Lair your problem does not lie in Hellions/Banshees but (a) in your (lack of) scouting and/or (b) an inadequate follow-up. I am advising you to scout and and adapt appropriately and in a timely manner. You on the other hand appear to be advising not scouting and not adapting until the last possible second, guaranteeing your opponent to have the upper hand. The scenario I'm concerned about is hellion/banshee vs 2base muta. All other possibilities are easily handled by hellion/banshee-- I've stated this already. The scenario with hellion/banshee vs 2base muta is one where they can start their 3rd hatch right before they start mutalisk production which you cannot in the least contest because of their impending mutalisks. Furthermore you cannot expand yourself at this time because you're making an armory, thors, and possibly also turrets. This means you cannot take your third until you have the anti-air capacity to defend 3 bases (which is more than 3 spots-- thor range is not THAT long). With a slower 3rd base your economy and production capacity are relatively poor, making contesting his 4th base very difficult, if not impossible, as well. This means he has map control, an economic advantage, and you are stuck in a defensive posture. In my experience this always leads to a scenario where I cannot possibly defend his second hive-max because he simply has more money. Hence instead of risking this scenario as a possibility, I am advising adapting your build preemptively by going 2fact instead of banshee. This accomplishes having faster thor production which enables you to secure your 3rd much earlier, while also giving you potential harass-potential in the form of blueflame hellions. You don't even have to make the blueflame early if you don't want to. Remember 2nd fact, armory, and thors delay your cc relative to the normal timing. So if you already have your 2nd fact by the time you scout mutalisks you have 2 thors out 120 seconds later. Your thor timing is such that you don't need turrets to merely defend 2base (while you're making 3rd cc), which means if you don't get blueflame your 3rd cc is at least 500 minerals earlier (port, banshee, 2turrets), which means you can easily take it the moment you have 4 thors (180 seconds after scouting mutalisk), since his unit accumulation will be worse than if you'd delayed your cc with the port build.
you just swap Factory with Starport and get 2 Vikings while your Armory is in construction, with a few Turrets it should be enough to hold his weak initial Mutalisk A valid point, but a scenario I'd rather avoid since thors are more useful early on-- I'm trying to be as efficient as possible.
it comes down to scouting and in this regard Hellions/Banshees is superior (because you have an air unit earlier, so you can fly around/over his bases, and you can still scan if you feel it's too dark An air unit that in the scenario I'm concerned about is unlikely to be useful again, if it even makes it home alive, for a very long time. I'd rather not waste the time and money on it-- again focusing on being efficient.
On the other hand adapting to Roach agression with 2 Factories is harder because you need to deviate (the original plan with this build is a mass BFH attack, if you get Tanks anyway regardless of what your opponent is doing you're playing overly safe), and thus have intel, and you may not have said intel in time Remember, with the way I'm playing I'm making a Marauder if I know/suspect roach on the rax, and having the 2nd building (port or fact) make its own techlab. So that doesn't pose a threat to what I'm advising. You only have blueflame and excess hellions if you don't do the 6:30 scan.
Sadly that's the same thing against Zerg, the only difference being that your death animation takes longer to complete in the first case; if you're overly safe while Zerg develops at top speed you fall behind, and if you fall behind you lose due to Zerg being Zerg. I think mech's efficiency combined with good control of the ghost/thor I'm advising making in conjunction with smart decision making can overcome such a defecit should it happen. I'm not surprised what I describe wouldn't be the case with tank/viking oriented compositions though; since you have less gas and supply for useful and efficient lategame units such as ghosts and ravens.
The rest of your post suggests there have been some miscommunications between us. I am only describing CC first, I am only describing the scenarios where terran scans at 6:30 and makes a marauder if roach can't be ruled out, and am only concerned about 2base muta. I absolutely agree that tier1 aggression is easily stamped out by hellion/banshee (though you lose more scvs if you don't make the marauder vs roach; not a trade I'm okay with). Your proposed adaptations against mutalisk appear valid, but I'm not convinced they're optimal. I maintain at the moment that what I describe will come out ahead in the specific scenario I'm concerned than would a terran employing your proposed adaptations; but I also believe that 2fact does not have the weaknesses that you state. I'm not even advising never making banshees; I'm simply advising against them against gas openings where 2base muta is likely until after you make your 3rd cc. Banshees do wonders at limiting zerg's expansion attempts in a way that banshee-less doesn't come close. Except when zerg has mutalisks out on the map-- having and lacking banshees comes out the same. As far as economy goes I don't see how a 2fact opening is any different from a banshee opening. Instead of port, banshee, cloak, you're getting fact, blueflame, and a couple hellions prior to starting 3rd cc. If you want even more harass potential you can add a port and get a medic the way MVP did vs Life (against fast 3base zerg). As for your chart: after you defend his roaches easily with your hellions + a couple marauders you can harass his drones with hellions if he has not made a ton of roaches. If he has, then he hasn't made as many drones; and even a banshee build would be concerned with the roaches than with harassing drones in that case. I'm not sure how you think zerg is going to take advantage of your build after scouting it; you can easily adapt to whatever he does unless he's 3hatch on 2base, in which case it doesn't even matter. If you do have to adapt the build by getting tank and siege to hold an all-in, then you easily have the capacity to secure expansions at an aggressive rate; no loss there. If you hold a roach/bane all-in his expo is slow and he has no means with which to stop you from expoing afterwards (somewhat map dependant). So again: I'm not trying to bash hellion/banshee at all; it's by far my favourite build in tvz and does amazingly against the vast majority of possibilities-- with the exception of 2base muta, which was becoming increasingly more common in my experience. So again remember I'm giving advice to someone who said they were using CC first and losing to 2base builds. So I gave advice for dealing with 2base builds with CC first. I don't know what his problems are since he was vague.
Is he using the safest one (1 rax CC gas gas depot) instead of the more ambitious and therefore more vulnerable CC rax gas? Is he executing those Hellions openings correctly? Again, CC first. My advice is focused on those vulnerabilities. Is he executing the openings correctly? No clue; I'm not helping him with the execution, only with a tit-for-tat theoretical action/reaction scheme over a few possible scenarios. You can see his posts too. I dunno what his problems are; could easily be execution as you describe.
I think overall we don't disagree on much here, just on some little things; which probably neither of us are capable of convincing the other about.
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"Can you prevent your opponent from breaking his D key after defending his roaches attack?"
Can someone explain what this meant? I don't understand. (Taken from the white diagram above)
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