EDIT: People on EU! Join the channel "mech" where you can have more discussion in game!
Hello everybody, Many of us want to go mech. Whether it be because you don't have the APM or marine micro to go bio, or that your positional sense is particularly excellent. But, until very recently, people have only really gone mech in TvT. And even that died out at the start of 2012, replaced by ol' reliable marine tank. In TvZ, it was pretty rare to see, until the August of this year when MVP (of course it would be him), introduced the fast double armory variation of mech. Most Korean's have stopped doing this now, because how to beat it has been figured out, but I do see a lot of KeSPA pros going for 1 armory mech, which will be something to research in the future! In TvP, mech on a high level is still very rarely seen. The only person to do it successfully recently was Liquid's very own Sea. Hopefully we can see more of it, now he's participating in Proleague. Anyway, the point of this slightly rambling introduction was, if you wish to mech, this is the number 1 place to find discussion, build orders, replays and VODs.
First of all however, I need your help. The OP before I updated it (11th December 2012), was not that great. It wasn't nice to look at, and certainly wasn't a resource thread content wise. The only thing people were getting out of this thread was some good advice, from people like Nightmarjoo, and interesting discussions from everyone and anyone. I think we can all agree, this needs to change. It needs to be our mission statement to keep this up to date, and reliable with sources. Are you friend with a pretty decent GM player who you know mechs? Ask him for a replay pack, or maybe even a guide! Did you watch some amazing GSL game where you saw some very interesting openings into mech? Link it here! However, if you do link a singular replay or VOD, then please, please make sure that it is a VOD which has something unique in it. For example, if you find a completely new build, or maybe you find a VOD of something standard, but the Terran's opponent has done something that forces you to react differently and change the build. Here is a suggestion on how you set out a submission:
Players: Liquid'Sea vs Naniwa Link: [insert link here] [Date game was played] [Event game was played at] [Short description of the game, from both players]
The names are linked to the stream page of the person on TL.net. In case they don't have a thread on Teamliquid, I'll link the streams location. The Occasional Mech Players list shows streams of players who will go mech often, but also play other styles.
Baby opens Command Centre first into hellion banshee. He defends Symbol's 3 base Roach and Nydus pressure, taking a 4th of his own while killing drones with hellion drops. Symbol gets to hive tech and begins producing brood lords, while Baby constantly denies Symbol's bases with tank drops and fantastic multitasking. Baby takes out Symbol's hive while Symbol kills Baby's 4th base. Eventually Baby manages to re-establish it, and his economic lead forces Symbol out.
Demuslim opens CC First, and then goes for a quick 3 bases, while MMA gets faster 3 bases off a reactor hellion opening. The game transitions normally from there, with Demuslim going bio tank and MMA going into mech. MMA does end up losing because he doesn't scout Demuslim's air switch, but this is still a good example of how to play a mech vs bio TvT.
Sea opens with a fast expansion into hellion banshee. He then plays out a standard hellion tank mech game, using a large amount of tanks as well as control of the centre of the map to crush Naniwa's army repeatedly.
Both players open with fast expands, Sea going down his usual route with hellion banshee, a pretty quick 3rd base and double armory. Genius opens with fast collosus, also getting a quick 10 minute 3rd. Sea amasses a huge amount of tanks while doing some excellent hellion harass. Both players repeatedly deny each others 4th bases, before backing off again. Sea is again given a chance to get an enormous amount of tanks, around 30, and just smashes through Genius's army multiple times, ending the 30 minute long game.
i think you could add dragon to your stream list. the guy has some sick mech TvZ where he ultimatly transitions to thor raven Bc. Afaik he is some korean grandmaster?
Please add these to TvP. You may consider these to be outdated, but they are still useful and relevant. Obviously, the metagames are different, but you can still learn a lot about the strategies and builds. I only consider mech games like Thorzain vs MC in TSL4 on Crossfire or Jinro's mech games vs MC in GSL Open Season 3 to be outdated, because the patches have affected those strategies/builds and thus, studying those replays won't be very helpful since it is not a good representation of what it would look like today (For example, thor strike canon changes in these examples).
The last one is KR masters replays.
There's also another link of gorapadong's KR replays (high master / GM) with a guide in korean (his build is used in many of the above vods) i'll get that later.
Jinro occasionally does mech TvP and probably TvZ and TvT on stream (or least, has done so before). Same with other pros like MKP, Polt, ForGG, Rainbow, Aphrodite
Yoshi, i very much doubt you'll see Polt go mech very often, that guy just loves bio too much, but i think i remember MMA doing some good mech builds
Heheh you're right, he's more a bio guy But i did hear he did some thor centric mech build in TvP in some tournament (MLG?) and heard he did try some mech for a while in TvP on stream. (Obviously, probably not nearly as much as the others though :D)
I've seen MMA go TvP mech on TDA once against a foreigner, i think MLG or something, he did (IIRC) 2 fact 2 starport (that all-in that many terrans were doing at the time)
Maybe we can do online list for everyone, where can everyone add matches to make them public. If you do have any feedback for my list please don't hesitate to do it
PS: "spielübersicht" (name of the file) is german and means matchoverview
About the streams, A lot of Terrans play mech every 20 games on their stream. We are looking for streams at which you can watch for an hour and be pretty much guaranteed to see mech.
That's why this thread is here :-) I'll look at MVPs games in Code A. I won't go through the entire HSCV but undoubtedly somebody who knows where to find them pops up!
You may want to add following streams to the Occasional streams: ST_Hack plays some cool TvP Mech on his stream Naama has some funky Mech /BioMech builds in all matchups. Loves banshees
I thought id mention this game where Happy tries to go full mech against puzzle but ultimately fails before he gets siege tanks out. Happy opens gas first into a single cloackless banshee into expo and then proceeds to get blue flame while building marines from his reactored rax. He adds 2 more facts to his 1/1/1 expo build and adds a raven.
MMA goes for a reactor rax expand into a weird mix of bio and thors and hellions if i remember correctly. Anyways not a full mech game, but the opener might still be interesting for mech TvP.
And btw is there really not a TvT guide on TL about mech?
Great initiative, I recently started playing more again after a Diablo 3 + work break and have found mech in especially TvP to be a really fun and completely different way to look at the matchup.
In TvP & TvZ, I've looked at pro games but disagree with the overproduction of hellions - why not dump the extra minerals on absurd amounts of PFs instead to secure you fully against toss & zerg warpins/remaxes? I would love to see VODs if any pro has been doing this kind of aggressive PF-spamming.
Nope, I was surprised too not to find a TvT Mech Guide at TL. There's also really few openers, most are standard bio openers but with faster double gas at main and faster at nat and addind fact instead of rax. Very low defense :/
TvP mech is very interesting. I myself have a lot of trouble expanding to a 4rth because I dont dare to unaiege. That first volley seems to be so critical in holding off Zealots:/ maybe pf expanding is indeed the answer, making a huge wall to your 4rth. Endgame TvP i feel like Thor Cruiser Ghost (viking or tank, depending on P) is the way to go. Gasheavy as fuck ^^
On July 25 2012 05:46 Toastie.NL wrote: Nope, I was surprised too not to find a TvT Mech Guide at TL. There's also really few openers, most are standard bio openers but with faster double gas at main and faster at nat and addind fact instead of rax. Very low defense :/
TvP mech is very interesting. I myself have a lot of trouble expanding to a 4rth because I dont dare to unaiege. That first volley seems to be so critical in holding off Zealots:/ maybe pf expanding is indeed the answer, making a huge wall to your 4rth. Endgame TvP i feel like Thor Cruiser Ghost (viking or tank, depending on P) is the way to go. Gasheavy as fuck ^^
I've sent you a TvT mech guide :D In tvp I think you should have a very low number of tanks. As in, 4 or 5 and remain on ghost hellion Thor banshee (maybe with a raven or two) to give you a bit more mobility.
Maybe that is my mistake - running around with 20 tanks is scary as hell, especially with my internet with over 2500 ping if I click Siege half the tanks have been zealotted before they shopt
On July 25 2012 06:03 Toastie.NL wrote: Maybe that is my mistake - running around with 20 tanks is scary as hell, especially with my internet with over 2500 ping if I click Siege half the tanks have been zealotted before they shopt
Yeah the trouble with going very heavy siege tanks is if your opponent goes chargelot immortal archon or something like that. Sieged or unsieged it will just roll straight over you.
On July 25 2012 06:56 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Next time you have a misnamed thread, you can go ahead and report it so that a mod can take care of it ^_^ looks good though
Here is a recent TvP Mech play from STHack from the recent (this month) TSL4 qualifiers (KR #3). It revolves around hellions. Its a mass hellion play from Hack in the mid and late game where he has tanks and vikings for backbone. Not a single thor was built so that makes it even more interesting.
I think both games (1 win, 1 loss) show some strenghts (40+ probe kills?) and weaknesses. I would love to see more professionals try this kind of play and evolve it more. Personally, I get crushed in diamond with my 70apm which is a hindrance when in need of hellion harass. Hack did alright with 300apm, though decision-making is likely important too.
Really nice thread man ! My stream you found here is a old one used only for some tests, and my other stream on twitch isn't used anymore.
If you want to add them, my guide has links towards my VODs (only 2,and about TvP. going to do more during holydays) and replays, if you want to add them.
Anyway really nice initiative, i'm going to follow this!
General: Terran Mechanics/Improvement Guide by GFever
Every aspiring terran NEEDS to read this guys' guide. Not only does he talk about things like mindset, mechanics, hotkeys, etc., his guide includes a guide for EACH match-up, and these are very thorough and provide a lot of good information.
Not only does he have a bunch of text, he's even made specific [long] videos for each MU to give more tips/advice and to expand on the information given in his guide.
Gfever's thread is the most helpful thread/video-series I have ever found.
Also, I feel like even though you've already included his guide, you should also put his VODs and his replay pack into the respective sections, so that people who are looking for VODs/replays can see them without having to check every guide to see if they have anything other than text.
This is the same guy who wrote the TvZ mech guide, LemonyTang. He streams pretty often and always goes mech in TvZ and TvT.. I don't know if he's good enough to get added to the list but thought I'd post anyway. thanks for gathering these resources!
Still looking for that gorapadong guide + replays (some against pros or retired pros, so probably GM level or top masters at least)
It seems that on playxp, they get rid of threads that are a few months old? When I use the search function, it only goes as far back as May 2012. But I know I found the gorapadong guide+replays before... anyone know how to navigate this site? :D
Also I found a stream http://www.justin.tv/mechainc_ori/b/292526476 The name is gorapadong with only 1 video, which shows him play both Protoss and Terran. However, the stream link has the name "mechanic ori", which is the name of someone who has been posting replays of the gorapadong build (linked a couple posts back)
The confusing thing though is that when I found the gorapadong build, the thread creator's name was gorapadong. So maybe he has two accounts, or did he mechanic_ori want to impersonate gorapadong? The former's replays/opponents certainly seem to be lower skilled than gorapadong's.
Anyways, just thought I should mention this for those who are interested.
Even though it's a short game and it doesn't reach the midgame, here you can see Hack using his 8 marine drop + hellion opening, and see what you should or shouldn't do when things get ugly.
Could I ask you, Yoshi Kirishima, Avilo, Lyyna, and all the other good Mech players, to produce some replays (maybe even a pack :3?) so we can fill the thread up? Mech is rare to see in a VOD, but finding the reps is even harder. You are all higher level players most of the people browsing this thread can learn a lot from. And, who know, you might too ?
Avilo was already in. I'll put Major at the occasional mech players! Thanks for the contribution.
Smalll pointer, when posting links, please keep an eye on the http://de.blablabla part, since you're a Deutscher the pages will display in German if you use these links !
Meching vs T and Z is going fine for me now. Protoss, however. It seems like the guy can just make some units, 1a them across the map, make some more, lose them killing 2 thors and a BC, do the same trice and meanwhile, I can't get a 6th expansion up while he is on 7...!? Cannons > any attacks. Anybody ? (Cloud Kingdom btw)
GSTL Finals Game 1 - Gumiho vs MMA: a SICK Mech game. How to deal with basetrades and how to come back! Editting it in when the VOD is uploaded (And: game 1 is free for all!!)
Major vs Hyun TSL round 32 game 4 is an excellent example of how to mech. I recommend you post it up as soon as it is uploaded to the tl youtube channel :D
GSTL season 2 finals game 1 is an amazing example of Mech vs Marine-Tank. I think everyone can view it for free since it is game 1 in a series: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67636
This is a nice sky Terran guide by synystr who way back made a guide on using banshees in tvp. It's really good actually especially for people who don't really like that standard tank hellion Viking mix in tvp.
On July 29 2012 06:24 Toastie.NL wrote: Thank you a ton Kollin
When i find those threads, I read them and look the reps and totally forget to put them in this thread lol. Seen GuMiho's games?
Haha XD
Gumiho is a MONSTER seriously. He is just looking so strong. Also me and a friend are working on a 2 base mech all in that MKP does, as well as a more economical focused timing. We'll have a guide up some point in the future :D
I'm glad to see someone is doing the same thing I do: I go mech all 3 races. I'm high master T and GM P and the most controversial is going TvP mech; however, I find this is my greatest w/l to date....go figure! I typically go gas first into reactor helion production and just raid their mineral line; it throws many toss of guard. Even the ones that see it coming sometimes miss their forcefield and "GG." Then I transition into exand and some banshee harass while producing tanks and full on mech.
I beleive many P these days have completely disregarded mech as being viable, so they are confused of how to counter it much of the time. Much do not practice against this composition so it can sometimes result in a auto-win if Protoss produces too much of one unit (i.e.mass immortal and emp'd to death). I'd be happy to provide some of my replays, but many would criticize my wins are because of a overwhelming amount of probe kills via drop, run-by and banshee harass. But, hey, that's what you have to do with mech!
This is a nice sky Terran guide by synystr who way back made a guide on using banshees in tvp. It's really good actually especially for people who don't really like that standard tank hellion Viking mix in tvp.
I really don't think that should be included here, that is sky terran, not mech. The two have completely different styles. Just because the units from both tech trees are mechanical does not mean it is "mech". Mech comprises of the styles that utilize mostly Factory units. That's the definition of Mech, since BW. It's as different as bio and mech, and even marine tank is much closer to mech than sky but still very different. If you like to use thor/banshee kinds of mech compositions instead of the tank/hellion kinds, just check out lyyna's guide. That's the composition he goes for.
This is a nice sky Terran guide by synystr who way back made a guide on using banshees in tvp. It's really good actually especially for people who don't really like that standard tank hellion Viking mix in tvp.
I really don't think that should be included here, that is sky terran, not mech. The two have completely different styles. Just because the units from both tech trees are mechanical does not mean it is "mech". Mech comprises of the styles that utilize mostly Factory units. That's the definition of Mech, since BW. It's as different as bio and mech, and even marine tank is much closer to mech than sky but still very different. If you like to use thor/banshee kinds of mech compositions instead of the tank/hellion kinds, just check out lyyna's guide. That's the composition he goes for.
I did use Lynna's build for a while. I get your point about it not being "proper" mech, but it's still a very effective style and I think it should be included.
The Skyterran/ Mech Terran discussion is kind of hard. I tend to agree with Yoshi, but for completions sake I just put it in. If you don't like it, don't read it. I named it after Sky Terran so it should be easy enough to skip if you aren't interested !
Well I don't know if the thread is dead since op was banned, but I'm a high masters terran that primarily uses mech in all three matchups. My stream is twitch.tv/lyrathegreat.
The lyyna tvp mech thread linked in op is pretty much the ultimate active source of discussion for tvp mech in general and is a wealth of information and replays (though I've linked all the recent reps in the thread). I recommend following it if you're at all interested in meching tvp.
I can upload more replays (for all matchups) if there's any interest.
Hey guys, I have been using a 14cc strat in all my matchups for a while now, and instead of going heavy Bio in TvT off of the 14cc I have been experimenting with mech. Has anyone tried this or have reps or vods of this? Any TvT mech play off of a 14CC would be absolutely awesome.
15cc into mech is pointless tvt because you have to get a 2nd rax or you'll die to 1rax pressure. The advantage of 15cc over 1rax cc is minerals, and if you have to spend those minerals on a 2nd rax and marines further delaying your gas then you have no advantage.
I have asked monk if I can become owner of the thread or start a new one, as I think this thread is a really good resource for Terran players and it would be a shame to let it go to waste.
Thanks for the tip Nightmarjoo. Yes I have been going 14cc into 2 rax (like you said, you need the 2 raxes in any scenario otherwise basically anything early kills you). I see what you mean that the second rax could be skipped and thus gaining back that small advantage. Good point. I was then using the 2 raxes as add-on builders, but obviously you can do that with one rax instead. I guess one of the raxes could be used as a scout also, but overall it seems like this is a bad idea for a build.
Kollin, I hope he does transfer it, it is a great thread. What happened to Toastie?
Does anyone have the VOD of a TvT, sjow (I'm not 100% sure it was sjow) vs someone on Ohana, one of them went for 2 base 4 factory mech, the meching player won on 2 bases (I think). Sorry for the vague description, but I'm interested in that game because you never see mech being aggressive.
I have a question. Since there is no proper mech guide, as far as I know, is going 1 rax fe into 1-1-1 a good idea? My big confusion of mech is the addons....I dont know when to add what addons....the barrack is ready to make an addon, but what? Should I start TL for the factor for early tank for defending? Maybe yes, but after that, I want a reactor for my 2nd fact for hellions right? Then for my 3rd fact, I want another TL? And lastly when do I get reactor for viking production?
And of course, is there a general guide for mech, so that I can at least understand the gamestyle, positioning, understanding, because people say playing mech may mean less micro/apm however it requires decent understanding, strategies, positioning etc.
This may or may not address anything you want to know, but it's something I posted in the lyyna thread which touches on the difference between bio and mech in my understanding:
On July 31 2012 03:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not familiar with what he advises, but I'm inclined to suggest improving your fundamentals with bio before trying to learn mech. Bionic play is very mechanical in nature (player-mechanics) With bio it almost doesn't matter if you're doing the right or wrong thing as long as you're doing it fast. Your units are powerful but flimsy, requiring good attention and control to get the most out of them. Succeeding in gaining any level of mastery over bio will inevitably help your core mechanics as a whole. And you can get by in bio just by focusing on having efficient macro and active units.
In sharp contrast mech is much more decision-based than bio is. In tvz mech you'll have 3 techlab facts for a large percent of the game. The difference between making three thors and two thors and one tank with a production cycle could be the difference between losing horribly and winning decisively. When you complete a new CC you have to decide whether you can safely expand with it, giving you a new place to drop mules with the added requirement of more space to defend (more opportunities for your opponent to damage you), make an extra OC out of it for scanning and mule-dropping, or making a defensive PF out of it helping secure what you already have. Expanding when you can't hold that expansion is a huge waste of money, making an extra OC when you have no place to mule is a huge waste of money, and making an extra PF when you're running out of income is going to lose the game. Efficient macro isn't inherently good here if you aren't making the right thing. And often the bulk of your units aren't active, which makes getting the most out of the units which can be active far more imperative.
However, just getting to that point in the game where you have to make a decision, a choice based on your experience and the information you have specific to the game's scenario, requires good mechanics. You can't focus on your mechanics playing mech if you're losing by making poor choices, but you can't survive to learn how to make those decisions without decent mechanics. My standard tvz opening is cc first or 1rax cc into hellion/banshee. I use the hellion/banshee to scout my opponent, limit their creep spread (which effectively gives me time to react to anything), slow their economic and military growth by forcing them to use larvae replacing drones and lings instead of making new things to hurt me with, and to give me a safety net of force and distraction behind which I can secure my 3rd base allowing me to produce what I need to stay in the game. If you don't have the micro, macro, and multi-task to do all those tasks simultaneously, you're just going to lose to a single roach attack. And while you could try to develop those skills playing mech, you're better off doing so with bio imo. Being forced to multi-task like that with repetition and time will improve your multi-task, but only if you get there alive by knowing to make your bunker next to the cc instead of in part of your wall because you scouted his fast gas making a mass ling runby a possibility, and knowing to scan again at 6:30 to rule out the possibility of a roach all-in which would require you to make marauders with the rax-techlab and make the port-techlab with the port itself instead of floating to the rax techlab, etc etc.
I have no idea how viable it is to try to climb the ladder with mech. I started sc2 with the skill and experience playing bw competetively for 6 years yields and have been the equivalent of high masters since the beginning of beta. I played very nearly exclusively bio in sc2 until about last spring (except tvt, which I started meching in after mlg anaheim last year or so). Switching to mech was relatively easy for me once I came to understand the elementary decision making behind each matchup. I can't possibly say how easy or difficult that switch can be for someone at all relatively lacking in experience and skill.
Also with bio you have the huge advantage of being able to copy and mimic what progamers do. When you aren't sure how to handle a situation you can find replay or vod showing you the solution, or giving you a different build altogether to try out to avoid the scenario entirely, etc. With mech you mostly have to make up the answers for yourself since it isn't popular. Thus what games there are out there (and at whatever level) additionally include a great number of idiosyncrasies that you can't always copy for success. So if you choose mech, know that you do so at your own win% peril.
As for benchmarking economy, just compare income to necessary spending. I have games where my economy is just in shambles because I had to sack SCVs early to defend an attack, or to free up supply to adjust my composition safely to be able to stay in-game, etc, while having 10 OCs. You think, 10 orbitals? That's pretty good! But 10 OCs isn't good if I actually need 13 to support the constant production of everything I need, and thus I have no money and everything I choose to make is a potential game-ending hazard if I budgetted for the wrong thing (chose a BC when I needed a thor, etc).
Alllllllllll that being said, I think mech is wonderful style in each matchup, and that every terran should learn what they can about it to increase terran's strategic diversity as a whole across the world. If it turns out you can improve while learning mech, great! But if you choose this route, you may hit barriers forcing you to pause playing mech to improve your skill with bio.
On August 03 2012 01:53 dynwar7 wrote: Nice thread.
I have a question. Since there is no proper mech guide, as far as I know, is going 1 rax fe into 1-1-1 a good idea? My big confusion of mech is the addons....I dont know when to add what addons....the barrack is ready to make an addon, but what? Should I start TL for the factor for early tank for defending? Maybe yes, but after that, I want a reactor for my 2nd fact for hellions right? Then for my 3rd fact, I want another TL? And lastly when do I get reactor for viking production?
And of course, is there a general guide for mech, so that I can at least understand the gamestyle, positioning, understanding, because people say playing mech may mean less micro/apm however it requires decent understanding, strategies, positioning etc.
Going 1 rax fe into mech is fine but if you scout anything that might involve your opponent pressuring you, then you need a TL factory ASAP. That is why generally you should go for the TL factory first. When you are up to 3 factories you want 1 reactor and 2 tech labs. Unless you scout banshees or a 1/1/1 from your opponent you want to put the reactor on your star port straight away and pump Vikings. If you lose air superiority then it can be very hard to win as a mech player (though definitely possible with thors.
This may or may not address anything you want to know, but it's something I posted in the lyyna thread which touches on the difference between bio and mech in my understanding:
On July 31 2012 03:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not familiar with what he advises, but I'm inclined to suggest improving your fundamentals with bio before trying to learn mech. Bionic play is very mechanical in nature (player-mechanics) With bio it almost doesn't matter if you're doing the right or wrong thing as long as you're doing it fast. Your units are powerful but flimsy, requiring good attention and control to get the most out of them. Succeeding in gaining any level of mastery over bio will inevitably help your core mechanics as a whole. And you can get by in bio just by focusing on having efficient macro and active units.
In sharp contrast mech is much more decision-based than bio is. In tvz mech you'll have 3 techlab facts for a large percent of the game. The difference between making three thors and two thors and one tank with a production cycle could be the difference between losing horribly and winning decisively. When you complete a new CC you have to decide whether you can safely expand with it, giving you a new place to drop mules with the added requirement of more space to defend (more opportunities for your opponent to damage you), make an extra OC out of it for scanning and mule-dropping, or making a defensive PF out of it helping secure what you already have. Expanding when you can't hold that expansion is a huge waste of money, making an extra OC when you have no place to mule is a huge waste of money, and making an extra PF when you're running out of income is going to lose the game. Efficient macro isn't inherently good here if you aren't making the right thing. And often the bulk of your units aren't active, which makes getting the most out of the units which can be active far more imperative.
However, just getting to that point in the game where you have to make a decision, a choice based on your experience and the information you have specific to the game's scenario, requires good mechanics. You can't focus on your mechanics playing mech if you're losing by making poor choices, but you can't survive to learn how to make those decisions without decent mechanics. My standard tvz opening is cc first or 1rax cc into hellion/banshee. I use the hellion/banshee to scout my opponent, limit their creep spread (which effectively gives me time to react to anything), slow their economic and military growth by forcing them to use larvae replacing drones and lings instead of making new things to hurt me with, and to give me a safety net of force and distraction behind which I can secure my 3rd base allowing me to produce what I need to stay in the game. If you don't have the micro, macro, and multi-task to do all those tasks simultaneously, you're just going to lose to a single roach attack. And while you could try to develop those skills playing mech, you're better off doing so with bio imo. Being forced to multi-task like that with repetition and time will improve your multi-task, but only if you get there alive by knowing to make your bunker next to the cc instead of in part of your wall because you scouted his fast gas making a mass ling runby a possibility, and knowing to scan again at 6:30 to rule out the possibility of a roach all-in which would require you to make marauders with the rax-techlab and make the port-techlab with the port itself instead of floating to the rax techlab, etc etc.
I have no idea how viable it is to try to climb the ladder with mech. I started sc2 with the skill and experience playing bw competetively for 6 years yields and have been the equivalent of high masters since the beginning of beta. I played very nearly exclusively bio in sc2 until about last spring (except tvt, which I started meching in after mlg anaheim last year or so). Switching to mech was relatively easy for me once I came to understand the elementary decision making behind each matchup. I can't possibly say how easy or difficult that switch can be for someone at all relatively lacking in experience and skill.
Also with bio you have the huge advantage of being able to copy and mimic what progamers do. When you aren't sure how to handle a situation you can find replay or vod showing you the solution, or giving you a different build altogether to try out to avoid the scenario entirely, etc. With mech you mostly have to make up the answers for yourself since it isn't popular. Thus what games there are out there (and at whatever level) additionally include a great number of idiosyncrasies that you can't always copy for success. So if you choose mech, know that you do so at your own win% peril.
As for benchmarking economy, just compare income to necessary spending. I have games where my economy is just in shambles because I had to sack SCVs early to defend an attack, or to free up supply to adjust my composition safely to be able to stay in-game, etc, while having 10 OCs. You think, 10 orbitals? That's pretty good! But 10 OCs isn't good if I actually need 13 to support the constant production of everything I need, and thus I have no money and everything I choose to make is a potential game-ending hazard if I budgetted for the wrong thing (chose a BC when I needed a thor, etc).
Alllllllllll that being said, I think mech is wonderful style in each matchup, and that every terran should learn what they can about it to increase terran's strategic diversity as a whole across the world. If it turns out you can improve while learning mech, great! But if you choose this route, you may hit barriers forcing you to pause playing mech to improve your skill with bio.
Wow that's a really good piece of advice. I remember messaging it to toastie but then he got banned T_T
http://drop.sc/packs/1269 Ok here're some more replays. It contains all of my wins in my current replay folder (which started sometime in June). Something like 133 terran games according to sc2gears. I didn't sort it at all, but it should be something like 95% mech. I don't claim that any of these games are necessarily good (or gm), but 99% are vs high masters or gm opponents. Some should be games that I've already uploaded, but whatever. Some are short, some are insanely long. Probably half of it is ladder, rest are customs, tournament, and/or clanwar matches.
The tvp games probably vary the most across time. Maybe stick to watching the more recent tvps to get an idea of what I think is viable for conventional play. The tvzs and tvts should be pretty similar across time.
On August 03 2012 02:55 Nightmarjoo wrote: http://drop.sc/packs/1269 Ok here're some more replays. It contains all of my wins in my current replay folder (which started sometime in June). Something like 133 terran games according to sc2gears. I didn't sort it at all, but it should be something like 95% mech. I don't claim that any of these games are necessarily good (or gm), but 99% are vs high masters or gm opponents. Some should be games that I've already uploaded, but whatever. Some are short, some are insanely long. Probably half of it is ladder, rest are customs and/or tournament matches.
The tvp games probably vary the most across time. Maybe stick to watching the more recent tvps to get an idea of what I think is viable for conventional play. The tvzs and tvts should be pretty similar across time.
If I get made OP these will definitely get included, thanks! :D
This may or may not address anything you want to know, but it's something I posted in the lyyna thread which touches on the difference between bio and mech in my understanding:
On July 31 2012 03:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not familiar with what he advises, but I'm inclined to suggest improving your fundamentals with bio before trying to learn mech. Bionic play is very mechanical in nature (player-mechanics) With bio it almost doesn't matter if you're doing the right or wrong thing as long as you're doing it fast. Your units are powerful but flimsy, requiring good attention and control to get the most out of them. Succeeding in gaining any level of mastery over bio will inevitably help your core mechanics as a whole. And you can get by in bio just by focusing on having efficient macro and active units.
In sharp contrast mech is much more decision-based than bio is. In tvz mech you'll have 3 techlab facts for a large percent of the game. The difference between making three thors and two thors and one tank with a production cycle could be the difference between losing horribly and winning decisively. When you complete a new CC you have to decide whether you can safely expand with it, giving you a new place to drop mules with the added requirement of more space to defend (more opportunities for your opponent to damage you), make an extra OC out of it for scanning and mule-dropping, or making a defensive PF out of it helping secure what you already have. Expanding when you can't hold that expansion is a huge waste of money, making an extra OC when you have no place to mule is a huge waste of money, and making an extra PF when you're running out of income is going to lose the game. Efficient macro isn't inherently good here if you aren't making the right thing. And often the bulk of your units aren't active, which makes getting the most out of the units which can be active far more imperative.
However, just getting to that point in the game where you have to make a decision, a choice based on your experience and the information you have specific to the game's scenario, requires good mechanics. You can't focus on your mechanics playing mech if you're losing by making poor choices, but you can't survive to learn how to make those decisions without decent mechanics. My standard tvz opening is cc first or 1rax cc into hellion/banshee. I use the hellion/banshee to scout my opponent, limit their creep spread (which effectively gives me time to react to anything), slow their economic and military growth by forcing them to use larvae replacing drones and lings instead of making new things to hurt me with, and to give me a safety net of force and distraction behind which I can secure my 3rd base allowing me to produce what I need to stay in the game. If you don't have the micro, macro, and multi-task to do all those tasks simultaneously, you're just going to lose to a single roach attack. And while you could try to develop those skills playing mech, you're better off doing so with bio imo. Being forced to multi-task like that with repetition and time will improve your multi-task, but only if you get there alive by knowing to make your bunker next to the cc instead of in part of your wall because you scouted his fast gas making a mass ling runby a possibility, and knowing to scan again at 6:30 to rule out the possibility of a roach all-in which would require you to make marauders with the rax-techlab and make the port-techlab with the port itself instead of floating to the rax techlab, etc etc.
I have no idea how viable it is to try to climb the ladder with mech. I started sc2 with the skill and experience playing bw competetively for 6 years yields and have been the equivalent of high masters since the beginning of beta. I played very nearly exclusively bio in sc2 until about last spring (except tvt, which I started meching in after mlg anaheim last year or so). Switching to mech was relatively easy for me once I came to understand the elementary decision making behind each matchup. I can't possibly say how easy or difficult that switch can be for someone at all relatively lacking in experience and skill.
Also with bio you have the huge advantage of being able to copy and mimic what progamers do. When you aren't sure how to handle a situation you can find replay or vod showing you the solution, or giving you a different build altogether to try out to avoid the scenario entirely, etc. With mech you mostly have to make up the answers for yourself since it isn't popular. Thus what games there are out there (and at whatever level) additionally include a great number of idiosyncrasies that you can't always copy for success. So if you choose mech, know that you do so at your own win% peril.
As for benchmarking economy, just compare income to necessary spending. I have games where my economy is just in shambles because I had to sack SCVs early to defend an attack, or to free up supply to adjust my composition safely to be able to stay in-game, etc, while having 10 OCs. You think, 10 orbitals? That's pretty good! But 10 OCs isn't good if I actually need 13 to support the constant production of everything I need, and thus I have no money and everything I choose to make is a potential game-ending hazard if I budgetted for the wrong thing (chose a BC when I needed a thor, etc).
Alllllllllll that being said, I think mech is wonderful style in each matchup, and that every terran should learn what they can about it to increase terran's strategic diversity as a whole across the world. If it turns out you can improve while learning mech, great! But if you choose this route, you may hit barriers forcing you to pause playing mech to improve your skill with bio.
Nicie guide , thank you.
You made a point regarding being offensive with mech or not, should I ? Or just play it safe and focus on defense in early game? The reason I ask is because I love banshees, so of course I will be doing 1 rax into 1/1/1 cloakshee. if I can pin the enemy in their base, then there is no need for such early tanks, right? On the other hand if I cannot utilize the banshees well, I better tl my fact and get siege ASAP?
EDIT: ALso what is your advice to avoid stalemate tank wars that goes 1 hour? Assuming its mech vs mech, how do you avoid this?
1rax cc into banshee isn't safe; it's a gamble. 1/1/1 banshee contain is fine if that's what you're talking about, but you need tanks at home for their inevitable drop. On that site is another guide I wrote on a gas first cloaked banshee build (which isn't an all-in) If you have to choose one or the other, stick to being defensive with core army and harass with hellion/banshee/nuke. Obviously the correct answer is somewhere in between. You need to build up your tank count. The only time you don't need fast tanks after expoing is vs 1rax cc, where it's ok to just make hellions for a bit while you add facts for map control.
If you're meching there's no need for a tank stalemate. Those only happen bio vs bio. You have air control and can push forward with either just good tank positioning or by using a banshee.
If the thread is remade, please include all the playxp replays I've listed. I don't know why toastie didn't put them in, it's not that hard to figure out how to download the replays (and I even explained it in a post o.o).
Ok guys Rich kindly gave me ownership of the thread. I can't edit it properly right this minute because I'm on my phone but I will do it as soon as I get to a proper computer.
On August 03 2012 15:06 Nightmarjoo wrote: They're over a year old...
I can see why he didn't include them then. But even with nerfs like emp or BFH, the gorapadong build is still used and, with so few mech replays, (especially TvP) why not include it? I don't think it would hurt to put it into an "older" section like Toastie did. You can still learn a lot, even if the maps are different and the metagame has changed (as the strategy can be and is still used on maps with similar features by GSL players and is executed with barely any differences). You can learn positioning, unit counters, what not to do as protoss, etc. etc. The important part is that you can learn from them; you don't need to copy when looking at a replay. It's a mech resources thread, so those who want to only study new replays can do that if they wish. Otherwise, would we really remove from the OP? Maybe it could be useful for anyone in the future who wants to look back. It would be easy to just copy and paste the links into an "old" subcategory, as Toastie did. By looking at the replay files, you can tell how old they are and if you want to watch them before loading them up.
So 1 rax fe into banshee is not safe? I thought that by using that banshee, I can harass AND scout if the enemy is going for early aggression. If they are, then I go quick tank, if not , then pump more banshees?
On August 03 2012 18:50 dynwar7 wrote: So 1 rax fe into banshee is not safe? I thought that by using that banshee, I can harass AND scout if the enemy is going for early aggression. If they are, then I go quick tank, if not , then pump more banshees?
What is your opener for mech in TvT, night?
1 rax fe into banshee TvT isn't a good idea. If he is going for anything faintly aggressive (marine hellion drop would be a good example here) ,then you could well lose straight up. It's better to go for something like banshee expand or reactor hellion expand, because it's a lot safer.
On August 03 2012 18:50 dynwar7 wrote: So 1 rax fe into banshee is not safe? I thought that by using that banshee, I can harass AND scout if the enemy is going for early aggression. If they are, then I go quick tank, if not , then pump more banshees?
What is your opener for mech in TvT, night?
1 rax fe into banshee TvT isn't a good idea. If he is going for anything faintly aggressive (marine hellion drop would be a good example here) ,then you could well lose straight up. It's better to go for something like banshee expand or reactor hellion expand, because it's a lot safer.
Agreed, especially on the korean server they often 1 base (like 111). I watched rainbow's stream a lot and he almost always opened 111. Even his opponents (many notable GSL players) would open 111 as well. They play very aggressively and know how to kill you. I like to 1 rax fe into siege tanks + vikings asap (so basically 1 rax expand into 111). It's flexible and can defend the common kinds of builds, but you can still lose (they may be better at micro than you, you may mess up, or the map is good for the opponent's 1 base strategy, etc.)
Could you please change my stream link to http://fr.twitch.tv/lyyna? Actually the stream the op found is a very very old one used only for some tests, and as i'm starting to stream again . . ^^(first one soon btw)
well that is weird :S I see many pros like to go 1 rax fe into banshee :s
EDIT: Btw Yoshi, i checked gfever's fast siege tank build (1rax fe into fast siege tank) that you use, and i compared it with mine. gfever's finishes his siege tank at 8:15, and i have mine done at 8:00, and i have banshee out by that time already.
If his quick tank finishes at 8:15, and mine at 8:00, I think i am ok? Because when I go banshee I like to follow up with fast tank too.
And night, I still dont quite get upgrades. Most pros meching players I see such as MVP, get upgrades ( +1 weapon) really late, perhaps around the 15 minute mark or more. Is this normal when meching? So going double armory is not possible, and that it is better to spend gas on tanks/vikings first, and maybe when you get 3rd base, start double armory?
tl dr, must i wait until 3rd base to get double armory? Or i can have 1 armory in 2 base?
As I said, 1rax cc banshee is viable vs another 1rax cc, but is still a gamble. You can't use it vs any tech opener though because their tech is faster. Progamers do not play safe. They make gambles based on their knowledge of their opponent and on making educated guesses on what they can get away with. You can't copy their builds in ladder or even in tournaments or clanwars because in that environment you're far more likely to run into the counter.
I get my armory after 3rd cc while I'm pumping 2tank 1viking, before I add 4/5 facts. I don't get a 2nd armory until later in the game, when I need to start air ups. I never try a fast 2nd armory, or a fast first armory. The gas is too precious at that stage to spend on anything that won't obviously help you survive. Goal of mech at all points in game is to survive. You might be able to get away with it in mech vs mech, but not mech vs bio. Bio has more money than you in midgame and a much greater production capacity. You have to weather their aggression until you've evened up both.
currently i'm practicing mech TvP ( Thanks to Lyyna, Nightmarjoo and this thread ), first game practice quiet good result ( High Master Protoss and I leaded the game so far ) but since it was a practice game where people intend to macro play, I want to ask you which is the best open in TvP for mech ( :/ Cuz If i'm going to play on ladder, surely will meet more allins, cheese toss
- 1 Rax gasless FE into fast banshee - 2 rax gasless FE into (?) - 1/1/1 Open into fast banshee / siegetank (?) - 1 rax 1gas into Rax Reactor then FE - 1/1/1 Fast thor Open ( Lyyna guide )
Thankyou very much
edit: Thanks Yoshi, I mean a combination of both safe and versatile (:
On August 04 2012 01:00 dynwar7 wrote: well that is weird :S I see many pros like to go 1 rax fe into banshee :s
EDIT: Btw Yoshi, i checked gfever's fast siege tank build (1rax fe into fast siege tank) that you use, and i compared it with mine. gfever's finishes his siege tank at 8:15, and i have mine done at 8:00, and i have banshee out by that time already.
If his quick tank finishes at 8:15, and mine at 8:00, I think i am ok? Because when I go banshee I like to follow up with fast tank too.
And night, I still dont quite get upgrades. Most pros meching players I see such as MVP, get upgrades ( +1 weapon) really late, perhaps around the 15 minute mark or more. Is this normal when meching? So going double armory is not possible, and that it is better to spend gas on tanks/vikings first, and maybe when you get 3rd base, start double armory?
tl dr, must i wait until 3rd base to get double armory? Or i can have 1 armory in 2 base?
Is your build a 1 base? Then yes, since with gfever's build you can barely defend almost anything, 8:00 tank will be pretty safe as long as you're getting siege mode too. If he just does a 1 base marine tank viking push I don't think you can defend it without siege. You can delay it with bunkers but would still need siege soon.
About the armory upgrades, since I see so many differences, I think it is a combination of preference and progamers simply not knowing the best times to start upgrades and how many armories. I'm not sure if you're talking specifically about TvT so I'll just talk generally. Many I see just go 1 armory on 2 base and just get attack upgrade. Sometimes in TvZ you may see defense upgrade instead. Sometimes they get double. I don't think I often see an armory in TvZ just for thors but without upgrades. In TvT, like night said I wouldn't go for double armory vs bio or marine tank. But often I see double armory (or a fast 2nd armory) start upgrading by the time they get their thirds in mech vs mech, while getting a raven after 1-2 vikings. In TvP, mech upgrades don't help that much since you can't go too tank heavy and tanks are the most benefited by [attack] upgrades. So if they go hellion tank heavy, I often see just 1 armory on 2 base. If you think about it, an armory + attack upgrade is 250/200. That's about 1.5 tanks. It makes the tanks do 10% more damage, so for the upgrade to be worth it, you need to have 14 tanks. Otherwise, it will not pay off until then. It's partly preference because you do get to lategame power faster and you could stick with 1 armory instead of 2. If you go for early upgrades, be sure to keep in mind that you will have a weaker army, and therefore defensive play will be more beneficial. The difference between 10 and 11 or 12 tanks is pretty huge. In a fight, think of it not as 1 or 2 more tanks but think of what's left over after a fight with 10 tanks, and have those 1-2 extra tanks shoot 5-10 times. That's enough to kill a lot of units, especially since you don't want to let protoss regenerate their shields. Upgrading only armor TvP I don't see much anymore, but can still work occasionally (as seen in many high level replays). For that you would have to get a thor/hellion or thor/banshee kind of a composition, relying on thors instead of tanks. These kinds of builds usually revolve around a timing push on 2 or 3 base though, quickly maxing on 200/200. Keep in mind also that in TvT, another benefit to getting double armory instead of slowly upgrading attack then defense is so that you can get your ship weapons faster.
So anyways, yes you can start with 1 armory on 2 base, then add a 2nd one later. There are some greedy builds though where you can (if you want to try to get away with it, or are responding to your opponent's greed) fit double armory on 2 base before you have much army (Jinro's done this a lot in his TvP mech games about 2 months ago on stream).
On August 04 2012 11:43 foxj wrote: Hey guys
currently i'm practicing mech TvP ( Thanks to Lyyna, Nightmarjoo and this thread ), first game practice quiet good result ( High Master Protoss and I leaded the game so far ) but since it was a practice game where people intend to macro play, I want to ask you which is the best open in TvP for mech :/ Cuz If i'm going to play on ladder, surely will meet more allins, cheese toss
- 1 Rax gasless FE into fast banshee - 2 rax gasless FE into (?) - 1/1/1 Open into fast banshee / siegetank (?) - 1 rax 1gas into Rax Reactor then FE - 1/1/1 Fast thor Open ( Lyyna guide )
Thankyou very much
What do you mean by best? Safest? Most versatile? A combination of both? There are always risks when choosing strategies, and even pros don't go 1 rax expand bio in TvP all the time. So I assume you mean the build that is "doable" against the most number of strategies (can adapt and respond with proper scouting, etc.)
I prefer expansion builds, so I would go with 1 rax 1 gas reactor rax. Depending on maps or your opponent I would also do 1 rax gasless FE. Going into tanks before banshees for that, though, is a bit more safer (or even thors). Banshee openings and hellion/marine drop/pressure openings are pretty good as well as long as it's not a bad map for it -- it's not hard to get some probe kills or intel to make your delayed expansion that bad.
I would say the safest would be a 111 build if you are ok with 1 basing. Even with reactor rax expand, it is often hard to fight off all-ins if your opponents are good at micro (those korean protoss all-iners are insane lol).
Not included in that list though, is gorapadong's build. This is my favorite. It's been used in tournaments like GSL and against pros on KR ladder before. It opens reactor rax into siege tanks, then you get 2-3 more reactor factories. BFH asap.
There's also a build I believe MKP first showed, it's on audio builds on youtube. I like using this build on maps where it's easy to defend blink harass into your main (Daybreak, Ohana, Metropolis, etc.) You gasless expand into 3 reactor factories, then get another OC (can land at third depending on map), then all your reactors finish up in time for you to support pumping 6 hellions continuously. You can get 2 tech lab factories after or you can go double armory first if you don't think he's going to push with fast blink or colossi. This build works well on maps with open naturals, especially metropolis. Your hellions force him to stay home and if he decides to push, you should have enough time to set up final preparations.
Yes I 1 rax fe like I love and still get banshee and quicker tank then gfever and have good number of marines too.
Well I guess I just need to play and get some experience on when to get upgrades etc.
Lastly....I dont....really need to get vikings THAT early right? Maybe delay viking for a bit, it is safe right? Because I like to make 2 banshees first, THEN Raven, THEN reactor vikings. What are your thoughts on this
On August 04 2012 12:09 dynwar7 wrote: Thank you Yoshi for that.
Yes I 1 rax fe like I love and still get banshee and quicker tank then gfever and have good number of marines too.
Well I guess I just need to play and get some experience on when to get upgrades etc.
Lastly....I dont....really need to get vikings THAT early right? Maybe delay viking for a bit, it is safe right? Because I like to make 2 banshees first, THEN Raven, THEN reactor vikings. What are your thoughts on this
Do you make the tech lab on the barracks for the factory? You do gasless expand right?
If you see him doing a 111 push, you will need vikings or else, without air dominance, you will only have 2 OC's worth of scans to defend, which is not enough. If he expands without vikings you can try to push him and continue to make banshees, then making vikings to match his count. If he is doing a marine tank banshee push though, yes you can still make banshees, though I think vikings would be better since you can snipe the banshees and stay out of range of the marines.
I make tech lab on the factory, barracks just pumping marines for early defense. Plus I need the gas for everything else, not reactor barracks.
Hmm, so talking in general, going to macro game, do you advice to get reactor starport later or it is compulsory to have it early? Because like I said, 2 banshee, 1 raven, then starport reactor sounds good? Maybe I will start starport reactor aruond the time I take my 3rd? Which should not be late because I have so many minerals.....which mech player doesnt lol.
I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok?
On August 06 2012 00:17 dynwar7 wrote: I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok?
If you do not have sky superiority as mech, especially against another mech player, then that is bad. Generally it's good to start reactor Viking production off 2 base then get your armories when you take a 3rd.
I love playing mech. TvT mech vs mech or mech vs bio is great. It is all about positioning and thinking strategic.
The problem with mech is TvP. Protoss can often just a-move over a sieged up mech army. I do not care about balance since it does not affect my level of play, but it feels like a design error that Protoss can just engage head on against a sieged up army.
Protoss should have to abuse the immobility of mech like bio Terrans do, but it should not be possible to just a-move into a sieged up mech army. Hopefully Hots will correct this.
This is purely a question and I'm not even sure it would work, but could a siege expand hold off most of the early protoss openings? I was seriously thinking about trying to force mech to work for me in TvP as either I have to end the TvP fast or I lose late game due to bad micro. I play mech in both TvT and TvZ so I'm pretty good with the positional game and I think if you use buildings (like rax) you might be able to hold the zealots off long enough for your mech army to do some decent damage.
In TvZ when I push anywhere with my siege/thor/hellion army I always float some barracks with me to create either choke points or wall off behind me to stop them coming directly behind me with lings and I'm not ready, I really wonder if that sort of thing would work well in TvP too since Bio is a bit too micro intensive at my level.
On August 06 2012 01:38 Qikz wrote: This is purely a question and I'm not even sure it would work, but could a siege expand hold off most of the early protoss openings? I was seriously thinking about trying to force mech to work for me in TvP as either I have to end the TvP fast or I lose late game due to bad micro. I play mech in both TvT and TvZ so I'm pretty good with the positional game and I think if you use buildings (like rax) you might be able to hold the zealots off long enough for your mech army to do some decent damage.
In TvZ when I push anywhere with my siege/thor/hellion army I always float some barracks with me to create either choke points or wall off behind me to stop them coming directly behind me with lings and I'm not ready, I really wonder if that sort of thing would work well in TvP too since Bio is a bit too micro intensive at my level.
There are a lot of mech openings that involve tanks. The best in my opinion is the Thorzain opening.
12 Rax , produce marines until 4 , then reactor on rax (usually just after CC) 13 Gas Factory Bunker Techlab on fact 1 Tank CC Good opening getting a CC around 5:30 and can defend most cheeses,but its CRITICAL to keep your scouting scv alive, as its your only scouting thing
On August 06 2012 00:17 dynwar7 wrote: I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok?
If you do not have sky superiority as mech, especially against another mech player, then that is bad. Generally it's good to start reactor Viking production off 2 base then get your armories when you take a 3rd.
But what do you do with the air superiority that early? If you choose to reactor starports and your opponent chooses armories, the only advantages you gain is that you out range his tanks and/or you can add a second starport and make banchees, further delaying your upgrades and both advantages get shut down by any number of thors with your opponents army. Even if you wanted to get a raven or 2 to negate the thor would all of that gas spent not on upgrades be worth it? I suppose with you wanted to very quickly transition to sky Terran it could be worth it to reactor vikings that early, but what are some other reason to delay upgrades for more vikings?
On August 06 2012 00:17 dynwar7 wrote: I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok?
If you do not have sky superiority as mech, especially against another mech player, then that is bad. Generally it's good to start reactor Viking production off 2 base then get your armories when you take a 3rd.
But what do you do with the air superiority that early? If you choose to reactor starports and your opponent chooses armories, the only advantages you gain is that you out range his tanks and/or you can add a second starport and make banchees, further delaying your upgrades and both advantages get shut down by any number of thors with your opponents army. Even if you wanted to get a raven or 2 to negate the thor would all of that gas spent not on upgrades be worth it? I suppose with you wanted to very quickly transition to sky Terran it could be worth it to reactor vikings that early, but what are some other reason to delay upgrades for more vikings?
Because as mech unless your doing a lot of hellion vs hellion battles upgrades do not make a huge difference. Obviouly you want them, but 1/1 tanks are gonna rip through bio or unsieged tanks nearly as quickly as 2/2 tanks. The reason you want air superiority is yes, it's easier to transition to sky terran, but also positioning. Mech is all about positioning and if your opponent has air superiority he has a big advantage in being able to position his tanks where he likes.
On August 06 2012 00:17 dynwar7 wrote: I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok?
Did you not read the tvt guide I linked? It answers a lot of the questions you've been asking. You don't need to produce reactor vikings constantly, constant 1port production is fine at first. I already said you probably shouldn't be getting fast double armory. Point of early vikings (vs a FE) is to have enough to stop drops when they come. Drops can show up as early as 9:30 (fact before stim/addons) and onwards (stim fact, stim reactor reactor fact, stim reactor reactor +1 fact, stim +1 fact, etc).
On August 06 2012 01:38 Qikz wrote: This is purely a question and I'm not even sure it would work, but could a siege expand hold off most of the early protoss openings? I was seriously thinking about trying to force mech to work for me in TvP as either I have to end the TvP fast or I lose late game due to bad micro. I play mech in both TvT and TvZ so I'm pretty good with the positional game and I think if you use buildings (like rax) you might be able to hold the zealots off long enough for your mech army to do some decent damage.
In TvZ when I push anywhere with my siege/thor/hellion army I always float some barracks with me to create either choke points or wall off behind me to stop them coming directly behind me with lings and I'm not ready, I really wonder if that sort of thing would work well in TvP too since Bio is a bit too micro intensive at my level.
I know the thread hasn't yet been reorganized, but just a few pages back are a bunch of tvp mech reps. It is viable. Personally I'm not a fan of tank/hellion focused builds, but even if you were gonna use them you almost never actually need siege before cc. You have to scout well and adapt. Siege + reactor marine production will definitely keep you safe from absolutely everything, but you'll fall behind really quickly delaying your cc that much vs economic play by protoss.
On August 06 2012 00:17 dynwar7 wrote: I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok?
If you do not have sky superiority as mech, especially against another mech player, then that is bad. Generally it's good to start reactor Viking production off 2 base then get your armories when you take a 3rd.
But what do you do with the air superiority that early? If you choose to reactor starports and your opponent chooses armories, the only advantages you gain is that you out range his tanks and/or you can add a second starport and make banchees, further delaying your upgrades and both advantages get shut down by any number of thors with your opponents army. Even if you wanted to get a raven or 2 to negate the thor would all of that gas spent not on upgrades be worth it? I suppose with you wanted to very quickly transition to sky Terran it could be worth it to reactor vikings that early, but what are some other reason to delay upgrades for more vikings?
rofl if you outrange his tanks you win. Just slow push carefully, burning out his scans with minimal losses, and keep pushing until he has a concave you can't circumvent. At which point you bring in a banshee to continue pushing. As you push you open up paths to harass or attack his expos by. Your push limits counter attacks and counter harass. Now air control is actually less initially important in mech vs mech than mech vs bio. Thors can make up for an air control deficiency as a temporary solution to stall to get vikings out. If you don't have air control vs bio they drop on your expos, production facilities, and/or army and you lose the game instantly.
If the toss does a 1 gate robo expand, (aka expands at about 5:30), would it be better to expand with reactor marines into siege or siege tank then expand (thorzain)? I would think the first option would be better since bunkers should be good enough to defend and it's more economical, but maybe there could be some kind of timing with fast siege mode + higher siege tank number since toss's expansion is at 5:30 instead of 4:30 and hence will have less stuff later.
Also, same with if protoss does a 2 gate expand. Or one of those weird 2 gate phoenix expands.
On August 06 2012 04:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Just thought of something --
If the toss does a 1 gate robo expand, (aka expands at about 5:30), would it be better to expand with reactor marines into siege or siege tank then expand (thorzain)? I would think the first option would be better since bunkers should be good enough to defend and it's more economical, but maybe there could be some kind of timing with fast siege mode + higher siege tank number since toss's expansion is at 5:30 instead of 4:30 and hence will have less stuff later.
Also, same with if protoss does a 2 gate expand. Or one of those weird 2 gate phoenix expands.
When I see Protoss go for 1 gate expand or 1 gate robo expand I go reactor expand personally, so I'm not too behind on eco. However I have also found that against a 15 nexus or 1 gate expand, you can put on some pressure with the initial tank and marines. Hell if he 15 nexuses you can straight up win with the pressure.
How do you scout a 1gate robo expand before deciding what to do? Shouldn't 2gas robo look like an immortal all-in or colos drop opening too, with stalkers denying further scouting?
Making tanks vs phoenix seems a little daft. Should thor imo.
On August 06 2012 04:47 Nightmarjoo wrote: How do you scout a 1gate robo expand before deciding what to do? Shouldn't 2gas robo look like an immortal all-in or colos drop opening too, with stalkers denying further scouting?
Making tanks vs phoenix seems a little daft. Should thor imo.
With the thorzain opening you only make a single tank, then you can switch over to thor hellion banshee or w/e. Even if you don't have a thor out in time against phoenix you still have marines which will be able to push the phoenixes back until the thor does pop out.
On August 06 2012 04:47 Nightmarjoo wrote: How do you scout a 1gate robo expand before deciding what to do? Shouldn't 2gas robo look like an immortal all-in or colos drop opening too, with stalkers denying further scouting?
Making tanks vs phoenix seems a little daft. Should thor imo.
Oh yeah, good point, with either reactor expand and siege tank expand protoss' expand would come after you already chose one X)
I'm curious as to how Lastshadow is able to win games on KR high masters with mech (thor hellion banshee mostly). He beat MC once with it on antiga. Did the protoss just make a bunch of mistakes and lastshadow included the replays for those to show that they can work, or maybe there is something unique about lastshadow's builds that the protosses were confused about? LS says mech doesn't work and he only does it for fun, but from his replays it definitely seems that it works, whatever "works" means to you.
On August 06 2012 04:47 Nightmarjoo wrote: How do you scout a 1gate robo expand before deciding what to do? Shouldn't 2gas robo look like an immortal all-in or colos drop opening too, with stalkers denying further scouting?
Making tanks vs phoenix seems a little daft. Should thor imo.
Oh yeah, good point, with either reactor expand and siege tank expand protoss' expand would come after you already chose one X)
I'm curious as to how Lastshadow is able to win games on KR high masters with mech (thor hellion banshee mostly). He beat MC once with it on antiga. Did the protoss just make a bunch of mistakes and lastshadow included the replays for those to show that they can work, or maybe there is something unique about lastshadow's builds that the protosses were confused about? LS says mech doesn't work and he only does it for fun, but from his replays it definitely seems that it works, whatever "works" means to you.
I remember watching the replay of that MC game a few times, and I have to say I think MC didn't deal with it well. The immortal void ray was in theory a good idea, but with 250mm strike cannon as well as the scv's repairing it just wasn't enough.
EDIT: Also can I ask people to keep contributing! This database could be expanded a lot, especially with mech making a resurgence in TvT and TvZ. If you have any VOD's/replays of pros doing mech put post them here or PM me!
There's a few things I think could have made things go a lot better for MC.
1) MC's third was earlier than Lastshadow's, and he might have had a lot more probes too, could have been more zealots. 2) He teched too much. Immortals, voids, and colossi with thermal lance? Maybe just immortal + void rays would have been enough. 3) His voids were clumped up quite a lot, and got shot at by 1 thor while stacked before the battle even started. 4) Lastshadow brought lots of SCVs, so MC could have pulled his SCVs off his line to help tank (it seems that MC didn't think that lastshadow's push would be that strong, else he would have pulled probes, or maybe MC already felt that he lost once he saw the army at his third) 5) Maybe he just didn't choose the best tech. Going both colossi and void ray seems to be not that good because what if lastshadow just got some vikings? Vikings do well against both void rays and colossi. We've seen Thorzain beat MC in TSL4 with thor hellion viking. Maybe just colossi + Feedback HT would have been better? Or Storm HT + immortals.
And for those saying that people HAVE tried mech enough though and you don't see it because it doesn't work (incontrol, etc. etc.), that doesn't seem to be true at all because even great players like MC don't know how to deal with mech that well. You could say MC was trying something new out but... would he really need to try out something new if people really actually tried out mech so much, as anti-mech people argue? After the game's been out for almost 2 years? And if mech was really so easily beat, why would MC need to try out something new anyways? And why are people saying mech is unviable instead of "hard" or "difficult" when it doesn't seem mech has any glaring holes in its play? There's a big difference between "unviable" and "hard" to me. The former means there is a gaping hole in the play, for example if ghosts were missing in TvP then terran would just get screwed over by templar tech. Hard just means that it is, subjectively, hard for whoever is using it. It could be unforgiving, etc. etc.
Just watched the Day9 Mech TvP daily. That's pretty damned useful for anyone else who haven't seen it.
I definately want to throw myself at it on the ladder until I can refine it for my own play. One thing I noticed was turret rings are going to be really important to stop warp prisms. Sort of like Turret Rings against arbiters due to the way late game protoss can warp in like 30 units at a time.
Is it possible to be aggressive with mech? It is common stereotype to wait until 200/200 to attack with mech, but surely you can be aggressive with mech early on?
Is there any pro player who is aggressive using mech?
In tvt there are 4fact 2base builds which hit at about 150 supply. In tvp tank/hellion oriented builds are VERY aggressive. Constant constant hellion harass all over the place, using hellions instead of marines. I'm not familiar with the attack timings beyond the hellions though. Tvz tends to be more army-passive (still plenty of hellion/banshee aggression) because of the strength and threat of zerg counters and general mobility.
On August 06 2012 12:37 dynwar7 wrote: Thanks night
In the other thread, no, I really appreciate your input. Just looking for more input, that is all.
May I ask what this 4 fact 2 base bulid is ? I want to be aggressive in mech, I guess incorporatae my aggressive style using bio, to mech.
Maybe it's not the one he's talking about but Gumiho used an aggressive 2 base push and destroyed Ryung in GSTL season 2 finals.
And yes of course, mech can be aggressive. It's not the same as attacking though. Tank/hellion styles are good for being aggressive in TvP like night said.
For example: thestc vs jjakji gsl code s 2012 season 2 ro32 dual sight TheStc goes gas first blueflame cc (1 hellion, no pressure), 2nd gas, port (then resumed hellion production), reactor, viking (jjakji opened gas, substitute with medic vs FE imo), moved fact to reactor and port to techlab for reactor hellion production and 1 banshee, reactor, moved port to 2nd reactor for 2viking production, took 3rd gas as soon as he landed oc in nat, 2/3 fact during 2/3viking production, 4th gas at about 75% 2/3 fact production, 4th fact when can afford while constantly producing tank/viking (stopped at 7 viking), siege. Attacked on approximately 150 supply (attack delayed by jjakji's aggression though). He had harassed main with banshee with 3viking support, and at another time probed with hellion/viking to look for harass/attack opportunities (and found none).
Alright Yoshi ,and Night, you are both very knowledgable regarding mech. Let me ask, what then, do you think is the main weakness of mech? Is it what everyone seems to say - immobility? Or the slow reproduction of mech army? IOr perhaps the vulnerability to drops even with turret rings? What do you think?
On August 06 2012 14:07 dynwar7 wrote: Alright Yoshi ,and Night, you are both very knowledgable regarding mech. Let me ask, what then, do you think is the main weakness of mech? Is it what everyone seems to say - immobility? Or the slow reproduction of mech army? IOr perhaps the vulnerability to drops even with turret rings? What do you think?
Getting to the midgame. Since you're spending more on teching compared to the safe 1 rax expand into bio (in which even players like Polt or ForGG occasionally have big trouble against Protoss all-ins on stream), it's harder to defend until you get your mech going. Unlike bio, where you have lots of marines which are flexible and can defend many things with good micro, you don't have your full mech composition going yet and if you don't respond properly to the all-in or attack protoss is doing, you can easily lose.
Either that, or its unforgiving nature. I've gotten a lot better at watching the minimap and making sure I siege and position my army correctly and on time, but if you slip up once and let him walk around your army to your base(s) then it's really hard to win. Even if you siege up half a second too late, the difference could be 1000-2000 resources worth of units. Things like that happen occasionally. I guess its a bit the same with bio, but with bio you're more often pressuring the protoss but with mech usually it's the other way.
Thanks yoshi. By the way I am only curious in TvT VS p and z I just go bio. Also, what is your advice for a bio player who wants to drop and sees 120 turrets? lol. Basically, if there are many turrets, is it just impossible for bio to drop? Other than usind raven PDD that is.
On August 06 2012 15:00 dynwar7 wrote: Thanks yoshi. By the way I am only curious in TvT VS p and z I just go bio. Also, what is your advice for a bio player who wants to drop and sees 120 turrets? lol. Basically, if there are many turrets, is it just impossible for bio to drop? Other than usind raven PDD that is.
Night, what do you think?
Drop on low ground, snipe turrets, land on high ground. If the turrets are too far from the cliff for you to snipe from the bottom, then just drop on the high ground and tank the damage. If you kill the turrets it's all good.
Well when I play bio against mech I do my best to get air dominance, because then I can get banshees, ravens and battlecruisers. Then I'll also get ghosts for nukes. Something I saw MVP do in a gsl final was use ravens to stop the turrets, then dropped ghosts and thors. He used the ghosts to drop 3 or 4 nukes on his opponents production.
Weakness of mech is that you can't power through mistakes. The style typically emphasizes more decision-based skill rather than mechanical. In tvz if you make 3 thors thinking you need them to fight zerg's broodlords instead of 1 thor and 2 tanks you may find yourself overrun by roach. There's no "oops I didn't make exactly what I needed, I'll just micro really well and multitask a couple drops at same time". In tvt you may max and push out and just crush through the bio's army, but having left too little defense at home you lose all of your factories and can't quite kill him with your push, letting him kill you on both fronts. In tvp you may have your lyyna quotas of numbers and think "great, it's bc production time!" and failing to scout protoss' immortal/archon mix you get run over as the first insignificant bcs come out since you didn't make 3banshee and 2 more tanks instead. When Protoss is attacking you at 2 completely different spots at once it can be very difficult to quickly and appropriately split up your army to efficiently win or at least just hold on both fronts. Personally I don't have any trouble getting to midgame or lategame; that's probably a matter of scouting, using units well, and making smart decisions.
What I find difficult is the proper endgame army control priorities, positioning, and proper reinforcement compositions. I've lost tvzs where I was winning all game and decide it's a good time to start bc production and lose to mass corruptors because I don't have the raven energy/count and zerg has too much money. Or I'll be in a great spot tvp all game until it comes down to one fight that protoss is initiating and I'll blunder my control a bit and just lose the game instantly to a single moment of miscontrol instead of winning the game as a result of my patience and smart decisions. While the same thing certainly happens in bio as well I think it's more disheartening with mech since you have to be so smart and patient to get that far in the game. With bio you had timing windows and opportunities to exploit that you didn't for whatever reason and that the summation of your total mechanical successes and failures for the game lead to the result. So you can look at the game and easily see how you can do better next game, and by simply not missing your timing window you can end a game quickly by improving your macro and scouting, etc. With the mech scenario you can have done everything correctly and taken advantage of your timing windows and that the scenario inevitably lead to that endgame fight, which means the only way to correct your control error is to play out the entire game again and get back to that scenario and then you get to experiment with different positioning or priorities or general control and hope it works out again.
On August 06 2012 17:30 Nightmarjoo wrote: Weakness of mech is that you can't power through mistakes. The style typically emphasizes more decision-based skill rather than mechanical. In tvz if you make 3 thors thinking you need them to fight zerg's broodlords instead of 1 thor and 2 tanks you may find yourself overrun by roach. There's no "oops I didn't make exactly what I needed, I'll just micro really well and multitask a couple drops at same time". In tvt you may max and push out and just crush through the bio's army, but having left too little defense at home you lose all of your factories and can't quite kill him with your push, letting him kill you on both fronts. In tvp you may have your lyyna quotas of numbers and think "great, it's bc production time!" and failing to scout protoss' immortal/archon mix you get run over as the first insignificant bcs come out since you didn't make 3banshee and 2 more tanks instead. When Protoss is attacking you at 2 completely different spots at once it can be very difficult to quickly and appropriately split up your army to efficiently win or at least just hold on both fronts. Personally I don't have any trouble getting to midgame or lategame; that's probably a matter of scouting, using units well, and making smart decisions.
What I find difficult is the proper endgame army control priorities, positioning, and proper reinforcement compositions. I've lost tvzs where I was winning all game and decide it's a good time to start bc production and lose to mass corruptors because I don't have the raven energy/count and zerg has too much money. Or I'll be in a great spot tvp all game until it comes down to one fight that protoss is initiating and I'll blunder my control a bit and just lose the game instantly to a single moment of miscontrol instead of winning the game as a result of my patience and smart decisions. While the same thing certainly happens in bio as well I think it's more disheartening with mech since you have to be so smart and patient to get that far in the game. With bio you had timing windows and opportunities to exploit that you didn't for whatever reason and that the summation of your total mechanical successes and failures for the game lead to the result. So you can look at the game and easily see how you can do better next game, and by simply not missing your timing window you can end a game quickly by improving your macro and scouting, etc. With the mech scenario you can have done everything correctly and taken advantage of your timing windows and that the scenario inevitably lead to that endgame fight, which means the only way to correct your control error is to play out the entire game again and get back to that scenario and then you get to experiment with different positioning or priorities or general control and hope it works out again.
Great points, I totally agree on the decision making part. It's so different than bio or marine tank, and I love the diversity of styles and strategies. Having the right composition to survive each fight can be tricky (especially in TvP I feel, unless you play a thor/banshee heavier style which I feel is more flexible than tank/hellion). Not simply because you might lose the battle and thus the game by having a slightly wrong composition, but because, as Night has mentioned, since you can't rely on really good micro to make more out of your units, you have to have as perfect a composition (and position of course) as you can to make the most of your army. But knowing whether you should have 20 hellions and 15 tanks or 30 hellions and 10 tanks or such can be a really hard decision, yet it will make a small difference which will quickly snowball after each successive fight.
Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
On August 06 2012 22:50 dynwar7 wrote: Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
You can get marine/marauder drop on your tankline when you can't repel the medivacs. You've got no marines when you play mech, so for this thread all TvT needs aircontrol! Thors are few and far between so you wont have enough to stop medivacs dumping bio or even tanks on your tankline and you will not trade efficiently because all you tanks will damage themselves with each other's splash damage.
Vikings make sure some medivacs die enroute to your tanks so you won't trade that badly. Its really the #1 way to stop drops on your tanks which is the #1 way for you to lose an engagement to bio even when you are sieged up.
Banshees will slowly kill your tanks so you only need 2 or so vikings for that.
If you look from the opponent's perspective, he has to go around your tanks or over them. Dropping on tanks is an easy way to win as a bio-player, so he'll do that if you allow him to. High level players will try to draw away your vikings with a drop somewhere else. MMA (bio) showed this against Supernova (mech) on Ohana, where he constantly got the vikings out of position to drop on sieged up tanks, eventually winning the game in engagements against mech (hard to do). So you want vikings babysitting your tanks.
On August 06 2012 22:50 dynwar7 wrote: Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
On August 06 2012 22:50 dynwar7 wrote: Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
On August 06 2012 19:30 Jockmcplop wrote: When are you going to be streaming again Yoshi? I watched a load of yr vids on twitch yesterday and your builds are great.
Hmm, I've been playing Dota 2 a lot so I haven't been playing as much SC2 recently, but I think I'll stream some within a few hours from now.
I'm really lost when meching against Zerg, I can mech better in TvP then I can TvZ strangely enough. I can turtle and get to 4 bases, but sometimes i just get rolled by hive tech, broodlord/infestor/ling and then ultimately an ultra switch. I just don't get it, I really want to mech TvZ and I know it can be viable, but I just have no clue how to pull it off.
On August 07 2012 05:47 Crowned wrote: I'm really lost when meching against Zerg, I can mech better in TvP then I can TvZ strangely enough. I can turtle and get to 4 bases, but sometimes i just get rolled by hive tech, broodlord/infestor/ling and then ultimately an ultra switch. I just don't get it, I really want to mech TvZ and I know it can be viable, but I just have no clue how to pull it off.
Can you give us some clues to your composition? A replay or too would be nice as well, so we can see where the really big issues are.
On August 07 2012 05:47 Crowned wrote: I'm really lost when meching against Zerg, I can mech better in TvP then I can TvZ strangely enough. I can turtle and get to 4 bases, but sometimes i just get rolled by hive tech, broodlord/infestor/ling and then ultimately an ultra switch. I just don't get it, I really want to mech TvZ and I know it can be viable, but I just have no clue how to pull it off.
I was getting rolled yesterday with mech vs zerg but I found out with zerg if you get so many 3-3 tanks and a load of barracks walls to stop lings you can basically hold off anything as long as your viking control is good enough to stop fungals.
Saying that though I just had a 1:26:00 minute TvZ in which every base on the map bar one got mined out. I really should have won but I was too scared of fungals on my vikings >_<
Ghosts are necessary for sniping and emping infestors. Try to be aggressive before broodlords are out, clearing tumors and pressuring expos if nothing else. Try to position a PF and turrets to where you expect the fight to be. This is easier on some maps than others. Nuke expos as is possible. Use hellions to scout his unit mix so that your next production cycle is correct.
On August 07 2012 06:21 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ghosts are necessary for sniping and emping infestors. Try to be aggressive before broodlords are out, clearing tumors and pressuring expos if nothing else. Try to position a PF and turrets to where you expect the fight to be. This is easier on some maps than others. Nuke expos as is possible. Use hellions to scout his unit mix so that your next production cycle is correct.
Thanks for the ghost advice, I always thought of it, but then never did anything about it.
I think I definately played too passive in the game of mine, but wow it really showed the cost effectiveness of mech that game. he'd send his whole ground army in, get 2 tanks and lose everything. I eventually lost because he managed to get the last mining base and he got a really nice fungal on my vikings >_<
On August 07 2012 06:21 eXeprOxy wrote: Damn this thread is awsome.
Also whats a good standard opener TvP with mech for ladder that is safe against most cheese and gets a expo up at a reasonable time? Thanks!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15669283 http://drop.sc/packs/1269 Ton of replays of me. My favourite "standard" tvp opening is thor cc (or cc thor if you scout nex with 2nd scv scout). Normal rax/gas timing, 2nd gas is at 75% fact (send scv at 40/60 seconds build time so that it gets to geyser at 45/60). I reactor the rax and make a hellion before techlab to scout further. In my reps I think I'm getting my 2nd gas faster than I just described, but what I just described is much more efficient and something I refined very recently. The raven timing with this build is not sufficient for most dt builds, so if you suspect or at least can't rule out dt as a possibility you should get an ebay. If you have to turret your main ramp, so be it.
I also like hellion/marauder openings a lot. These can apply pressure vs 1gate nex and some tech openings (not so good vs robo before nex). Sometimes I use it if I suspect a blink opening because it hits before blink is done, thus greatly delaying the blink attack. I've used it successfully (albeit unknowingly) vs a void all-in in the past as well.
So far I'm not a fan of reactor hellion expand, but that potentially could be adapted well vs aggression as well.
If you scout what looks like a 4gate (all chrono on warpgate, and other subtler signs) you should get a tank asap instead of a thor. Otherwise the thor holds aggression very well, and is useful rest of game. I held a 3gate robo immortal all-in in a cw the other day so easily that I thought it was 3gate nexus robo aggression.
On August 07 2012 03:48 Nightmarjoo wrote: I can never get any viewers on my stream, how do you guys succeed?
Well the more you stream the more followers you will get. For the longest time I was only getting like 1-2 viewers lol. But then 3, sometimes 4, and now i have 5-10.
1 thing that helped me a lot is to post your stream on reddit. I'm not sure anymore actually if knowing that you play mech or mostly mech on stream attracts more or less viewers, cus I know there are many who only want to play the "standard safe" way. But anyways, once I posted in the allthingsterran and sc2 general reddits, my average viewers jumped from 5 to 10, sometimes 15. But now it's more like 5-10 again, either because I stream less often and/or the people who followed me from reddit forgot about me or got lazy to check my stream out.
A general rule I found is that the average number of concurrent viewers you have is very close to 10% of your followers. I found this true most of the time for even really popular streams.
Also have good quality... i think that's one thing that hurts me. I can stream a decent quality but these days it seems most people think that anything less than 1080p is bad quality =/
Also from different stream/poll threads, it seems that most people do prefer commentary, because most people watch streams to learn. Also I found it's really effective to have people talking other than you. It makes it more lively and feel more social. For example, you can just join a skype call with a few friends. If they are watching your stream and talking about it that's great, but it can even help if they're just going on about their own lives and just discussing other things. Hopefully your friends won't mind you giving commentary while they talk heheh.
Also I think I get many more viewers at night... and generally the longer you stream the higher your number builds up, even if those viewers are often afk. I live in EST, when I stream at 10 pm or especially even later like 2-6am, it seems i get a lot more viewers (I've checked my stats). I'm not sure why, maybe it's coincidence, or maybe europeans/asians watch streams much more often than the americas? I guess it's also because many stay up late (especially teens/kids) and also because many people have work until the evening, and at 10 pm everyone on west coast should be done with work too. Back when I was only getting 1-3 viewers at a time, I went on a 17 hours sc2 marathon (with breaks) and my viewer count hit ~10 at one point, that started from like midnight all the way to evening of the next day.
Also (yes, i'm gonna keep using this as a introductory word :D) I like to make my stream titles very accurate and updated. This way your followers know what you are streaming, so when they see the email "XXX is streaming "Mid masters mech"" they know exactly if they want to watch or not. If you have "Streaming SC2 Terran" but they see you playing LoL they might get lazy and never check again.
I also see most people from polls do prefer a set scheduled time. Since most people watch streams to learn, this makes sense. These are serious people who want to catch your stream and stay organized. This way they can set aside time in their schedules and know they will catch you, instead of hoping they don't miss much by checking their email constantly.
Anyways maybe hopefully this may help a bit? haha
Note: Hey I skipped around in your stream a bit, it sounds like you're getting a lot of sound distortion. To fix this you might need a combination of things: Turn your recording volume down, turn your volume down if you're using stereo mix, turn your music/game speed down, or buy VAC to improve sound quality. Anyways, if it's softer then compensate by increasing output volume in your encoder (I use FME, I think you use xsplit? I'm not sure if you can increase output volume in xsplit like that)
Note2: Argh seems I won't get to play sc2 for another few hours or may be til tomorrow.
On August 07 2012 09:34 Crowned wrote: Man mech is frustrating, I want to stick with it but one false move and you lose... I really want to get this down (
It's frustrating at first, but much like with every other style in the game if you don't stick with it you'll never get good with it. I learnt with Mech TvZ even though I lost 15 games in a row I didn't want to give up as the alternative I couldn't bear thinking about. Banelings... *shudders*
Just keep getting back on that horse and go for another game. Every game will be practice for you and you'll slowly start to learn what works and doesn't work in your style and also what to look out for.
In TvT I've been opening 15CC into Mech (might change that) and I just straight up lost to a guy doing 2 rax reaper as I was only getting 1 marine at a time and even they were late. I know that that's a possibility now and I'll make sure to never lose to that again.
On August 07 2012 09:34 Crowned wrote: Man mech is frustrating, I want to stick with it but one false move and you lose... I really want to get this down (
just start thinking about "ok what kills me here" because there are quite a few things that exploit mech's glaring weaknesses. in TvZ, if you reactor hellion->cloakshee you can basically build order lose if he 12 roach rushes you, or if he is going 2 base spire and you don't get turrets.
by dying to these over and over, I have learned almost every freaking way to scout for these, and when they show up. I know exactly when I need to scout it, and what my response needs to be if it is coming.
TvZ mech is amazingly easy to play in comparison to tank/marine. The reason i've started playing this exclusively is because tanks can be so incredibly cost in-efficient vs bane/lings. But once you get past the 12 roach push, and the 2base muta play, nearly the only things that will give you trouble are roach drops, or just massing roaches.
Just keep toughing it out, and eventually you will discover what makes it frustrating, and how to smooth them out.
Thanks yoshi. Yeah I use xsplit just cuz that's what I know to use. Should I switch to another program?
Yeah I checked my vods and it seems like the sound quality is fine for either the music or the game effects, but having both at the same time sounds like shit.
On August 07 2012 12:06 Nightmarjoo wrote: Thanks yoshi. Yeah I use xsplit just cuz that's what I know to use. Should I switch to another program?
Yeah I checked my vods and it seems like the sound quality is fine for either the music or the game effects, but having both at the same time sounds like shit.
Np
Yeah, it only sounds bad when there is a lot AKA the battles really. I prefer FME to be honest, it gives me higher performance with less strain. Also xsplit is horrible at encoding the text, if you look at your VOD I think you can know what I mean. It's all heavily pixelized. Xsplit has some advantages though like being able to set up overlays easier and such but if you're not too into that I would recommend FME.
Here's 2 guides that are extremely comprehensive if you want to try FME. You just need mic + stereo mix to commentate. Also download VH Capture from CNET (it's safe).
http://www.destinysc2.com/newbies-guide-to-streaming/ (All the pictures are missing but the descriptions should be enough to figure it out)
(Explains how to set up VH Capture and Part 4 is a simplified/shorter guide to FME)
If you got questions I can help ya ^^
On August 07 2012 09:34 Crowned wrote: Man mech is frustrating, I want to stick with it but one false move and you lose... I really want to get this down (
Adding on to what Qikz/ordinarY said, I remember when I was sort of stuck around the 750 Masters level at the end of 2 season in a row, but then suddenly, I stopped making the same mistakes and I just felt I finally "learned" many things like looking at the minimap very often to siege up in time in the right positions, then got a really high winrate until i leveled out in the 1000-1100 range. I think with mech especially, you just have to be patient. You might keep losing stupidly now, but eventually it should click and you just feel like you got a lot better.
What are people's thoughts on the Ruind style opening of 14cc into 2 rax double gas and then factory? So far it seems ok against most aggression with good scouting and bunker placement. But it does seem to transition into mech extremely well.
CC first gives extra minerals, which can't even be used for progressing mech if they're being blown on an extra barracks and marines. I think it's a silly build.
I like the CC first build in TvP atm. I use it to transition into 2 reactor fac, 2 tech fac and use the 2 rax for ghosts and go hellion/tank/ghost/(viking) like ST_Hack did. If I was going a more banshee style, I wouldn't do the CC first (in TvP).
In other matchups I don't like it as much as I don't need the rax (for ghosts).
I find that the opening transitions to ghosts much smoother than my old build (lyynas) and having 2 rax early makes me feel a lot safer and feel I can push out (with marine/tank) to punish really greedy builds.
Basically I don't feel it's that unsafe and enjoy the feel of the build, so it's a personal thing. It gives me confidence in game as I feel I'm not behind (economically) and feel I'm safe from random cheese (cause I have a number of marines), and feel I have the ability to push out and punish certain builds. I also feel that getting the earlier CC lets me get the 3rd/4th gasses quickly and get a 3rd cc quickly too if needed.
I think the CC into 2 rax and then transitioning into mech in both tvt and tvp is nice if you can get away with the early CC. I feel like the that the extra rax makes it easier to hold certain pressure builds and on top of that they can be used for building add ons and scouting later. However for safety reasons I use a less economical but probably more safe option of going for 1 rax expo into 2 gas and then adding the 2nd rax. In TvP as Rhubarb mentions the extra marines also makes it more comfortable to move out on the map with marines and 2 tanks for example. The replay from gumiho vs mma in this thread showcases the build that im talking about. Because its TvT the starport is needed as well here. Gumiho keeps every building naked thus being able to pump hellions, marines, vikings or medivacs at first. But depending on scouting he can put up the add ons that he feels is needed.
1rax cc gasgas rax isn't safe tvp. I'll try the cc first opening out to get a feel for it, but I expect there are all-ins you can't scout in time to react in time to defend, as is the case with 1rax cc gasgas. And it seems like the ways to adapt to all-ins would not transition well into mech, leaving you vulnerable to a 2base timing later. When I used 1rax cc gasgas end of last season tvp I had great success with it. When I used it early this season (when everyone is all-inning to climb quickly) I encountered several scenarios where what I would scout would look inoccuous, and then my 2nd scv scout would identify that it was an all-in and I would immediately take all scvs off gas, make a 2nd bunker, and add 2-3 rax and pump marines, and still lose because there just wasn't enough time to get a proper marine count. It's a great build if you know your opponent will 1gate nex or nex first, but only then.
So then I tried 1rax cc raxrax gasgasgasgas instead. That was working out well at first, then I encountered a midgame timing attack at 12:00 with heavy immortal that I found I couldn't stop for simple lack of gas. When the attack came I would have 12-16 marines, 2nd thor just finishing, and a raven without 100 energy. Maybe I could've held by lifting my 3rd and making 5 bunkers in my nat, but by that point there is absolutely 0 advantage garnered by having opened 1rax cc. Even if I could hold that attack I would be behind. My cc thor opening in contrast has 3 thors, a 100 energy raven, and a banshee by that time. It can hold anything but a super fast 4gate (which is easy to scout and get a tank out instead vs), and holds the 2base timing.
On August 08 2012 02:41 Nightmarjoo wrote: 1rax cc gasgas rax isn't safe tvp. I'll try the cc first opening out to get a feel for it, but I expect there are all-ins you can't scout in time to react in time to defend, as is the case with 1rax cc gasgas. And it seems like the ways to adapt to all-ins would not transition well into mech, leaving you vulnerable to a 2base timing later. When I used 1rax cc gasgas end of last season tvp I had great success with it. When I used it early this season (when everyone is all-inning to climb quickly) I encountered several scenarios where what I would scout would look inoccuous, and then my 2nd scv scout would identify that it was an all-in and I would immediately take all scvs off gas, make a 2nd bunker, and add 2-3 rax and pump marines, and still lose because there just wasn't enough time to get a proper marine count. It's a great build if you know your opponent will 1gate nex or nex first, but only then.
So then I tried 1rax cc raxrax gasgasgasgas instead. That was working out well at first, then I encountered a midgame timing attack at 12:00 with heavy immortal that I found I couldn't stop for simple lack of gas. When the attack came I would have 12-16 marines, 2nd thor just finishing, and a raven without 100 energy. Maybe I could've held by lifting my 3rd and making 5 bunkers in my nat, but by that point there is absolutely 0 advantage garnered by having opened 1rax cc. Even if I could hold that attack I would be behind. My cc thor opening in contrast has 3 thors, a 100 energy raven, and a banshee by that time. It can hold anything but a super fast 4gate (which is easy to scout and get a tank out instead vs), and holds the 2base timing.
If you want to upload a replay I wouldn't mind going through it. In my opinion on most maps (aside from daybreak) 1/1/1 off of 1 gas works quite well and you still get your expo before 7 minutes, most often doing enough damage to justify the later cc. If you can hide your gas more often than not it can straight up kill a greedy player.
I was explaining the evolution of my mech openings to what I'm doing currently and the reasoning for it; relevant to the cc first stuff because I don't think it's safe/viable.
Thanks for the tips guys, still working at this TvZ mech. I just played a decent game vs a mid-masters Zerg on my smurf, would still like some tips if you guys can check it out. (I know my macro slipped big time when I was trying to do some pressure with initial hellions/banshee.)
Didn't scout for 3rd or gas (could've died to a 3gas roach/bane attack). Hellion/banshee control was poor, poor macro during the aggression too. Your factories were so late that you were starting your first 2 thors when you should've already had 4 thors and 2 tanks. Lifted your 3rd incredibly late as well. Didn't stay on top of upgrades. Too many thors, very late extra factories. +3 mech attack is more important than +1 ship armour. You're fighting broodlord away from pf/turrets. Sacked your ravens. Money is extremely high all game. Macro is your biggest weakness. 250mm cannons are good vs ultra. Your lack of hellions is allowing lings to kill your thors. No ghosts. Very slow expos and too few OCs. Not scouting his unit composition. You win imo because your opponent didn't upgrade his broodlords and never made any Roach.
On August 08 2012 03:28 Nightmarjoo wrote: Replay of what?
I was explaining the evolution of my mech openings to what I'm doing currently and the reasoning for it; relevant to the cc first stuff because I don't think it's safe/viable.
From what you wrote it seemed like you still weren't happy with your current opening ><
Currently I am looking to get as many inputs as I can because I asked amoderator and found out there is no actual thread for HOTS. So let me just ask one thing about your opinion.
Please dont get this wrong - I never want to start a balance thread, and there is no HOTS general discussion thread, and I only simply want to know one thing and one thing only.
Yes, HOTS hasnt come out yet, but apparently with all these fellow terrans tears, in HOTs mech will be more viable to use. Does this mean bio will simply die? All I am looking here is an opinion, please do not misunderstand. I just hope that HOTS will make mech viable but does not mean will kill bio right? I just absolutely love the playstyle of bio, micro macro intensive, drop here everywhere, split vs fungal and storm, etc.
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
Now this is what I dont want to see, mech becoming standard lol
With Yoshis comment I dont mind,. I dont mind seeing mech become viable, what I dont want to see is mech KILLING bio.
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
Now this is what I dont want to see, mech becoming standard lol
With Yoshis comment I dont mind,. I dont mind seeing mech become viable, what I dont want to see is mech KILLING bio.
Yeah seriously. Bio is so freaking fun if it wasnt viable in TvP / TvZ i'd switch races.
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
Now this is what I dont want to see, mech becoming standard lol
With Yoshis comment I dont mind,. I dont mind seeing mech become viable, what I dont want to see is mech KILLING bio.
they will bring back bio-ball in LOTV, for HOTS it's time to make mech-ball
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
Now this is what I dont want to see, mech becoming standard lol
With Yoshis comment I dont mind,. I dont mind seeing mech become viable, what I dont want to see is mech KILLING bio.
they will bring back bio-ball in LOTV, for HOTS it's time to make mech-ball
On August 08 2012 15:20 Nightmarjoo wrote: Full mech may become inviable vs zerg and protoss unless the thor replacement retains splash.
Are you talking about the warhound? That's not replacing the thor.
Also, what if LotV made Air more viable :D
I thought the Thor was becoming a one-in-play only unit like the mothership, and losing its anti-air attack. Was that idea scrapped?
Yeah, they're adding in a warhound which is anti-ground mechanical unit (no air attack) and thor is staying in as is. Yay! People say the warhound is a mech marauder which may be true but... this is mech here, we don't need units that have high micro potential like bio. The warhound's stats are really interesting, and I can see many uses for it in TvZ even though zerg has no mechanical units.
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
Now this is what I dont want to see, mech becoming standard lol
With Yoshis comment I dont mind,. I dont mind seeing mech become viable, what I dont want to see is mech KILLING bio.
they will bring back bio-ball in LOTV, for HOTS it's time to make mech-ball
Well, Mech in HOTS is going to be terrible
Lynna, may I Ask why you think mech in HOTS is gonna be terrible?
On August 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Blizzard wants mech/bio to be played closer to 50/50 instead of what it is now. So eventually they should reach that point.
Seems like that's what they want but with the addition of Blinding Cloud, Ultra charge, Swarm Hosts, Mship Core Purify and its other habilities and with Terran bio getting absolutely nothing to deal with any of these HARD counters I think we will see Mech becoming standart for TvP and TvZ even at the higher levels (unless we see some sort of Ghost and Reaper buffs).
That's it, I called it folks, mech will be the new T standart in HOTS, you saw it first here!
Now this is what I dont want to see, mech becoming standard lol
With Yoshis comment I dont mind,. I dont mind seeing mech become viable, what I dont want to see is mech KILLING bio.
they will bring back bio-ball in LOTV, for HOTS it's time to make mech-ball
Well, Mech in HOTS is going to be terrible
Lynna, may I Ask why you think mech in HOTS is gonna be terrible?
Battle hellion : we already have hellions,but its ok. Warhound : useless versus bio heavy armies in TvT, zerg armies, any zealot/colossus armies vP. Widow mine : cost supply, resources,factory times, ez to outmicro or just to spot with one detector
Protoss get Tempest, best anti mech unit ever Mothership, for even stupider agressive play
Zerg get Hydra speed Ultra Charge
Ultra/hydra is already very good versus mech, now it's going to be unstoppable Oh and,Viper. Able to grab your tanks because we still dont have any fucking good anti air unit.
Seriously blizz, plz, give us a goliath.. and a spider mine. The fact is that they realised we need sc:bw things to "fix" mech play, but they dont want to do so, so they give us a "look alike" mine,which is absolutely impossible to use, and an anti ground goliath . which is useless except versus pure mech terran armies, or stalker based protoss armies
Lol lynna, why did you say battle hellion is weak vs heavy bio in tvt? Arent they gonna be so good vs marines?or maybe you meant vs marauders in the heavy bio force?
Well there is only 1 thing i hope for....that bio does not die in HOTS....I dont mind seeing mech viable, so people like kollin, yoshi night, lynna all can use the power of mech, but i certainly do not want to see bio die
On August 09 2012 01:05 Crowned wrote: So what's the absolute money composition vs each race? The ultimate army I can turtle and defend until I get and then just go win.
Thor battlecruiser ghost raven probably. Though that is super late game and very hard to get to.
Well I can just turtle at 4th while getting it and if they want to force an engagement into my tank line, then fine. But I can start to sacrifice units slowly as I build this ultimate composition.
Yeah what kollin said, but more realistically (before BC/Ghost with maybe Thor/Raven)
TvZ = Thor, Tank, Raven, maybe some ghost/viking (I can almost never get to BCs in TvZ... only on TDA haha, but Ravens for seeker missiles can happen often)
TvP = Thor, Tank, Ghost, BC
TvT = Thor, Tank, BC, Viking, Raven
These mentioned compositions won't just "win" you the game though, but they are definitely very strong.
TvP is the easiest to get to the BC/Ghost composition
On August 09 2012 03:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah what kollin said, but more realistically (before BC/Ghost with maybe Thor/Raven)
TvZ = Thor, Tank, Raven, maybe some ghost/viking (I can almost never get to BCs in TvZ... only on TDA haha, but Ravens for seeker missiles can happen often)
TvP = Thor, Tank, Ghost, BC
TvT = Thor, Tank, BC, Viking, Raven
These mentioned compositions won't just "win" you the game though, but they are definitely very strong.
TvP is the easiest to get to the BC/Ghost composition
Ever since I've started going mech I've noticed a lot more people randomly BM me/call me an idiot/insult me for using siege tanks as my main unit. Also all my matches usually go on for 40mins to 1 hour because I like to super turtle which I'm fine with, but what is it with mech that annoys people?
On August 10 2012 04:57 Qikz wrote: Ever since I've started going mech I've noticed a lot more people randomly BM me/call me an idiot/insult me for using siege tanks as my main unit. Also all my matches usually go on for 40mins to 1 hour because I like to super turtle which I'm fine with, but what is it with mech that annoys people?
I get that alot. When people start screaming how BS Tanks are, I just make hearts. "(♥_♥) Why you so mean, I wuv you"
Hm I don't encounter any specific BM to my mech play =/
If they're BMing you, I recommend you
1) Immediately block them 2) Say "umad?" -- be sure you say this before he might say it! 3) he gets pissed off and you don't get butthurt as a result of your opponent's idiocy/immatureness
On August 10 2012 05:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Hm I don't encounter any specific BM to my mech play =/
If they're BMing you, I recommend you
1) Immediately block them 2) Say "umad?" -- be sure you say this before he might say it! 3) he gets pissed off and you don't get butthurt as a result of your opponent's idiocy/immatureness
I just don't respond, then feel happy about my win. :p
Before I took a super defensive position with planetaries and a few barracks walls at the side on Shakuras while having my third on the middle base, it took me a while to secure my fourth but I did so with the middle planetaries (not optimal) but it was TvZ. He threw all his ultras, broods and lings into me beforehand and remaxed himself, he came back in again this time trying to go around the side which was less defended, I obliterated everything he had, he said noob and quit. I felt glad I got another win but it just made me laugh that I'm the noob when he's the one throwing his units into the grinder. God I love mech <3
Haha yeah, i love how illogical those BMers are. They call you a noob or say you can't play or that you're a joke, yet they are losing to you so what does that make them...? lol
I mech specifically so that I can collect protoss tears about "impossible lategame".
I tried out tank/hellion style more in tvp, and fucking hate it. When maxing on tank/hellion I found no way to safely unmax to get a lategame composition. When doing tank/hellion just until 8 tanks before switching to normal composition (for extra harass potential) I find no real advantage, and I'm behind on tech (no port) and ghost count/energy. The money really doesn't work very well. Also I hate opening tank cc, because there's no hellion for complete map scouting.
Cannot wait for HOTS so we will actually have a Mech unit below T3 that can shoot up. So annoying having Zerg go 10m mutas and losing because of any inability to deal with it other than reactor rax.
I generally go for 1 rax fe double gas into 3 factory 1 starport while taking a 3rd in every match up if i can.. Relatively successful v early aggression from all 3 match ups.. just not sure how to engage them early for a lead or heavy pressure without dying
Well, that's not exactly a game plan I'd recommend following, except in tvt. Maybe try looking at some of the reps posted in this thread (the op isn't updated yet) for ideas. E.g. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15755304. Most if not all of those are 1.4.3 though. In a few days I'll release more reps from just 1.5.
1. Night, In tvt mech, in your guide, why did you say mech is not immobile? You mentioned that this fact is a myth since mech can use hellions and banshees?
2. About mech in tvt again, lets say in cloud kingdom, theres lots of sieged tanks in the middle of the map. No bio army will ever want to come close to that. But then again, what about the other attack paths? Lets say oyu are a mech player in cloud kingdom, spawning in the north. as you take your 3th and 4th bases, they are far from each other, so if you are sieged in the middle, what defense will you have in 3rd and 4th base? A few sieged tanks may be good, but I heard/read that mech in small numbers are not strong?
If that is the case, then the bio can simply outmaneuver you by going left, right , left right? Even sensor tower won't nullify this since all it does is tell you where the enemies are. So you basically have to keep moving the army to left right left right to match the bio movement? OR leave 2-3 tanks in your 3rd 4th bases? But then again, like I said above, tanks are not good in small numbers are they?
EDIT: Night, perhaps you have got some replays that explain the situation above? Where the bio attacks your left base, then right base, etc. What would you do? In addition to this, I would love to see you play with banshees aggressively, to remove the myth of mech immobility
@Nightmarjoo when you do the hellion marauder push if toss decides to stay on 1 base how do you usually follow up at your base like bunkers a starport or do you put your CC down first? Juust wondering if you think its better to put down your CC first and then concentrate on bunkers ect or to make sure your safe first.
On August 10 2012 14:00 ConstantSc wrote: Is the reactor helion banshee your tvz opener?
After cc first or 1rax cc, yes, that's my standard.
On August 10 2012 15:05 dynwar7 wrote: 1. Night, In tvt mech, in your guide, why did you say mech is not immobile? You mentioned that this fact is a myth since mech can use hellions and banshees?
2. About mech in tvt again, lets say in cloud kingdom, theres lots of sieged tanks in the middle of the map. No bio army will ever want to come close to that. But then again, what about the other attack paths? Lets say oyu are a mech player in cloud kingdom, spawning in the north. as you take your 3th and 4th bases, they are far from each other, so if you are sieged in the middle, what defense will you have in 3rd and 4th base? A few sieged tanks may be good, but I heard/read that mech in small numbers are not strong?
If that is the case, then the bio can simply outmaneuver you by going left, right , left right? Even sensor tower won't nullify this since all it does is tell you where the enemies are. So you basically have to keep moving the army to left right left right to match the bio movement? OR leave 2-3 tanks in your 3rd 4th bases? But then again, like I said above, tanks are not good in small numbers are they?
EDIT: Night, perhaps you have got some replays that explain the situation above? Where the bio attacks your left base, then right base, etc. What would you do? In addition to this, I would love to see you play with banshees aggressively, to remove the myth of mech immobility
It is mobile. Hellions and Banshees are an example of very mobile units that are a staple to mech. The only immobile part of mech are sieged tanks, but only a small percent of your tanks need to be sieged at any given moment. Early on you may need to sit and defend, but that's no different than bio in many scenarios.
I'll have 1 tank in my main behind a turret ring sieged. 2 tanks behind the wall covering my nat ramp. The rest of my army will be in my 4th, which also defends my 3rd. A sensor tower in nat and 4th and a hellion on the tower give me vision of everything. As I see enemy movement I'll scout around with scans or hellions to figure out how much I need to send where. The mech army is fluid, it moves around to meet what it defends. When I max I leave behind a few tanks at every spot to defend counters. I don't need to leave behind enough to completely crush an entire bio army, just enough to make it not worth his while to attack there. I can lose the fight at one of these spots and be fine as reinforcements arrive. The idea is just to not let him have free reign killing my infrastructure. On a map like cloud my 4th will be a pf. On daybreak it'll probably be an oc, but my 5th will be a pf. Tanks are fine in small numbers when positioned well. Use your buildings to protect them as well. If your raven is approaching max energy and you aren't going to be using it for a while feel free to drop a pdd at some defensive position, maybe it'll help defend a counter from marauders.
On August 10 2012 15:14 MetalGear wrote: @Nightmarjoo when you do the hellion marauder push if toss decides to stay on 1 base how do you usually follow up at your base like bunkers a starport or do you put your CC down first? Juust wondering if you think its better to put down your CC first and then concentrate on bunkers ect or to make sure your safe first.
So if protoss cancels their expansion the moment I arrive or when they scout my attack etc, I'll set up a contain in front of their ramp with 2 bunkers. I'll fill them and then keep my marine rally at home. Assuming my contain doesn't get broken too early I'm going to expand, add a bunker, get 2nd gas, armory, and get a thor out, followed by port and raven. If when trying to set up a contain I just get smashed because it turns out they weren't going 1gate nexus I'll bunker before cc, and possibly even add 1-2 rax to be safe. Usually this isn't an issue though, because most protoss prefer not to leave their base knowing I have hellions on the field. I'm ok with making bunker before cc in general if I feel unsafe otherwise.
When going mech what is the best early late game unit combo for Terran when going up against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor.
So far I have never been able to beat this combo in early late game since tanks cannot be sieged up when broodlords attack. Late late game you have mass ravens to complement the Thor/hellion combo which makes it easier, but what can you do early late game against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor?
On August 10 2012 19:20 MockHamill wrote: When going mech what is the best early late game unit combo for Terran when going up against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor.
So far I have never been able to beat this combo in early late game since tanks cannot be sieged up when broodlords attack. Late late game you have mass ravens to complement the Thor/hellion combo which makes it easier, but what can you do early late game against BroodLord/Roach/Infestor?
Personally, ok I'm only in high platinum but my army composition is a lot of tanks, hellions to deal with broodlings a few thors for the corrupters and a healthy amount of vikings with a few ravens. By that point you should have a lot of orbitals so you can sack SCVs or use them to add turrets to help vs corrupters.
If it's only early late game you should still have a healthy amount of tanks/hellions and you can leave your tanks sieged up against broodlords with hellion support so the roaches are not a problem.
Recently I've been seeing a few Korean Terrans experiment with TvZ mech - the two Terrans that I've been following closely are ForGG and Supernova.
Both of these players, when committing to mech, open up with 3 to 4 rax and make a lot of marines. Now, by no means am I any good at this game and I do not claim to be able to read these players minds as they operate on a much higher level than myself, but from what I can tell this serves 3 purposes:
1) The Zerg player feels more inclined to go banelings, as all he sees for the most part is a barracks wallin and a lot of pure marines. This is a favorable response as a) banelings aren't really good against mech as long as you don't let them hit your hellions and you don't clump your thors, and b) the most common unit to complete these banelings will be mutas, which will absolutely get shredded by a thor-heavy compositon
2) This allows you to delay thor production in favor of hellions, as you'll have marines to defend against mutas.
3) This also allows you to maintain map presence - with a lot of marines on the map, the Zerg will feel less inclined to mass expand which is the most common response to mech
Behind these three to four rax, both of these Terrans will get three factories, an armory, and a third CC. One factory will have a tech lab for blue flame, but it will only produce hellions. ForGG favors getting reactors on the other two factories immediately, while Supernova prefers to leave them naked (another stylistical thing that ForGG does is he gets combat shields for his marines, even though he's meching).
After a good amount of hellion production (it varies a lot, depending on how much the Zerg has scouted/what his response was to the initial pokes), both Terrans will start producing Thors. In ForGG's case, he will take the tech labs on his rax and put the factories on them and have the rax on the reactors, while Supernova just throws down tech labs on his two naked factories. Behind this, both players add two more factories and another armory while saturating their third and taking a fourth depending on the situation of the game.
I'm not sure about how these players decide when to start tank production. My access to replays/vods of these games is limited, due to the fact that the times I've seen these builds have been on stream (ForGG's personal stream in his case, and as for Supernova it's usually been in smaller tournaments, like the IEM VI qualifiers and the MSI Pro Cups although I believe he meched vs Nestea in the GSL although I might be mistaken). I do have one replay of each player (ForGG vs Moon from ASUS ROG and Supernova vs Symbol from MSI Pro Cup 12) but that's not enough to accurately infer when and why they start to make tanks. I'd say a good rule of thumb is to start tanks after you know they've scouted your mech and they start pumping roaches, although thor heavy compositions are really what you're aiming for in the endgame.
I also want to note that ForGG is really not fond of mech as far as I can tell. When he uses it, most of the time he goes 1 armory/1 engie bay and goes for double attack upgrades and goes for some sort of biomech hybrid which really works well for him, but you can't really consider it mech due to that fact. However, it could easily be mech with more factories and a second armory instead of engie bay - the opening is the same, and the thought process is similar to Supernova's in any case.
This style of mech is also used by MKP when he mechs vs Z - I don't know if any of you recall the MLG where Apollo predicted that MKP would mech after he threw down 4 rax, but it was a very similar style. I've also seen Bomber use this sort of opening - unfortunately, he stopped uploading his stream vods otherwise I'd post the link here.
Anyway, those were just my thoughts - I've been noticing most of the people here and most of the replays/vods shown here use a sort of hellion/banshee opener into mech or some sort of 1rax FE -> fast siege + 3CC build and I figured I'd give me take on how the Koreans handle TvZ mech.
Also got a question for you top level meching guys.
What are some good guidelines to follow for as far as saccing scvs lategame. Such as "after you have x number of OCs you can start to get rid of x number of scvs and then you can sac x number of scvs for every OC you add after that." Any general strategy you guys follow when it comes to this?
This is a bit of an out there question, but I'm having trouble in TvZ and TvP on one specific map. I find it really hard to mech on cloud kingdom and admittedly it's probably because it's one of the harder maps for it, but could I show you some maps and then see if you think this is the correct course of action for expanding? The circles are building walls (I usually use rax) and the arrows show a slowish push.
Basically the main issue I have with this map, is I feel if I sit at my "natural" fourth I find myself incredibly blocked in and unable to ever push forward and expand again due to broodlords or ultras keeping me somewhat pinned back. If I leave a relatively large (maybe 8-9 tanks) at my third it should be able to hold them off to get my units back into position, but I find if I take the natural fourth I have real trouble stopping runby's or ever putting any pressure on. I understand this isn't really important as mech and I use a lot of hellion runbys to kill as many drones as I can to force him to remake them,
On the map though I just find it really difficult to take the fifth I would normally want to take (across from the natural fourth) as I find it really hard to get that highground in between them both secure without getting either pushed back by Broodlords as I take my fourth pretty slowly and if I try and defend up there too fast I find myself dealing with huge problems at my natural ramp as it's so far away. Would taking the zergs natural fifth and pushing onto his fourth slowly be a better choice for me? My style involves a hell of a lot of tanks, turrets if needs be, hellions and vikings with a few thors for support and extra splash against corrupters.
Secondly in TvP I have massive massive issues in ever taking a fourth and keeping it mining then moving onto my fifth.
*2 is one of my main concerns as zealot runbys cause me a hell of a lot of damage, but if I build the wall there I open myself to the problem at *3 which is that highground above the minerals. I really have no idea how I'm supposed to defend that highground as mech while also defending the lowground as if they go collosus they just hurass my mineral line and stop me mining. Causing me to either scan to get vision or put my banshees up higher than I'd want them at that point as they're in a lot of danger. Is there any advice you could give me to help me deal with that highground area? Should I maybe try and push towards that highground between my fourth and future fifth much sooner? Then again that opens me to the problem of busts at my walled natural ramp.
*4 is just the area I think I need to be defending quicker to stop the hurassment, but I'm unsure how to get there relatively quickly against an aggressive toss.
Sorry if I wrote a lot and none of it makes sense, I'm quite tired and felt like asking something with as much detail as I can (hence the maps). I don't really have the same problems on any other map as I find it relatively easy to push towards places while expanding, while still managing to defend my other bases.
On August 10 2012 19:37 Tyrseng wrote: Recently I've been seeing a few Korean Terrans experiment with TvZ mech - the two Terrans that I've been following closely are ForGG and Supernova.
Both of these players, when committing to mech, open up with 3 to 4 rax and make a lot of marines. Now, by no means am I any good at this game and I do not claim to be able to read these players minds as they operate on a much higher level than myself, but from what I can tell this serves 3 purposes:
1) The Zerg player feels more inclined to go banelings, as all he sees for the most part is a barracks wallin and a lot of pure marines. This is a favorable response as a) banelings aren't really good against mech as long as you don't let them hit your hellions and you don't clump your thors, and b) the most common unit to complete these banelings will be mutas, which will absolutely get shredded by a thor-heavy compositon
2) This allows you to delay thor production in favor of hellions, as you'll have marines to defend against mutas.
3) This also allows you to maintain map presence - with a lot of marines on the map, the Zerg will feel less inclined to mass expand which is the most common response to mech
Behind these three to four rax, both of these Terrans will get three factories, an armory, and a third CC. One factory will have a tech lab for blue flame, but it will only produce hellions. ForGG favors getting reactors on the other two factories immediately, while Supernova prefers to leave them naked (another stylistical thing that ForGG does is he gets combat shields for his marines, even though he's meching).
After a good amount of hellion production (it varies a lot, depending on how much the Zerg has scouted/what his response was to the initial pokes), both Terrans will start producing Thors. In ForGG's case, he will take the tech labs on his rax and put the factories on them and have the rax on the reactors, while Supernova just throws down tech labs on his two naked factories. Behind this, both players add two more factories and another armory while saturating their third and taking a fourth depending on the situation of the game.
I'm not sure about how these players decide when to start tank production. My access to replays/vods of these games is limited, due to the fact that the times I've seen these builds have been on stream (ForGG's personal stream in his case, and as for Supernova it's usually been in smaller tournaments, like the IEM VI qualifiers and the MSI Pro Cups although I believe he meched vs Nestea in the GSL although I might be mistaken). I do have one replay of each player (ForGG vs Moon from ASUS ROG and Supernova vs Symbol from MSI Pro Cup 12) but that's not enough to accurately infer when and why they start to make tanks. I'd say a good rule of thumb is to start tanks after you know they've scouted your mech and they start pumping roaches, although thor heavy compositions are really what you're aiming for in the endgame.
I also want to note that ForGG is really not fond of mech as far as I can tell. When he uses it, most of the time he goes 1 armory/1 engie bay and goes for double attack upgrades and goes for some sort of biomech hybrid which really works well for him, but you can't really consider it mech due to that fact. However, it could easily be mech with more factories and a second armory instead of engie bay - the opening is the same, and the thought process is similar to Supernova's in any case.
This style of mech is also used by MKP when he mechs vs Z - I don't know if any of you recall the MLG where Apollo predicted that MKP would mech after he threw down 4 rax, but it was a very similar style. I've also seen Bomber use this sort of opening - unfortunately, he stopped uploading his stream vods otherwise I'd post the link here.
Anyway, those were just my thoughts - I've been noticing most of the people here and most of the replays/vods shown here use a sort of hellion/banshee opener into mech or some sort of 1rax FE -> fast siege + 3CC build and I figured I'd give me take on how the Koreans handle TvZ mech.
Thanks a bunch for these observations, it is really useful! I remember that game, and I was thinking to myself "He's putting more rax down, and you think he's going mech? trololol" xD
I'm assuming it may be indeed true (many say it but it may not true, just as people said mech doesn't work in TvT back then, but then most terrans started meching, etc.) that mech is weak/unviable if they just pressure you with lots of roaches early (though I'm not sure exactly how hellion/banshee fares against that if the zerg plays correctly), if forGG, who has played mech a lot in TvZ not too long ago on his stream, is doing this new bio into mech kind of style.
Now that I think of it, I guess it does make a bit of sense, that they can start similar to bio but then add mech (hellions) for a marine/hellion composition which has shown to work before, before getting more and more mech, so that they survive to the midgame. Even though you made a few rax in the beginning and may not use them later on, it's not exactly a waste because you have so many minerals with mech anyways. Those rax can also be used to wall off or push or scout.
On August 10 2012 21:02 Crowned wrote: Also got a question for you top level meching guys.
What are some good guidelines to follow for as far as saccing scvs lategame. Such as "after you have x number of OCs you can start to get rid of x number of scvs and then you can sac x number of scvs for every OC you add after that." Any general strategy you guys follow when it comes to this?
I like staying on 70 scvs as long as possible for maximum oc count. I tend to sack them only when I feel I have to for the sake of adjusting my composition rather than relative to some OC count. 13 OCs is a good number to strive for. Don't mine out your main/nat/3rd until you have to later on in the game.
LastShadow's rule for tvz was to sack 6 at a time to afford another thor.
Qikz I didn't read your post in its entirety, but yes protoss kingdom can be tough. I do however always take the expos in the natural order. The biggest worry is double attacks at the nat and 4th simultaneously, but a well-timed pf on the nat ramp behind a depot wall should make it possible to split your army sufficiently to defend both fronts. I'd say that if you're worried protoss may do that (e.g. you see high stalker count for blink harass, or high early gateway count for aggression) you can start the pf cc right after you start your 4th expo cc at the earliest.
Since it is hard to attack his expos, make sure to get nukes out when conventional harass methods fail. The thing you have going for you is that in a long game it's easier for you to take the expo near his nat and the one near you than it is for him to take either. So you can starve out and outmoney them just by staying alive long enough. I've never put any pfs on the center highground, but that might be smart for pushing, defense, and securing expos.
Thanks for the advice Nightmare, I didn't think about putting a PF near my natural ramp since I didn't think it'd fit, but if I have that I can probably leave some tanks with it too to stop anything getting in for atleast long enough for my army to get back. Nukes is a cool idea too, I never thought of really using them as I keep forgetting to get ghosts (which as I just found out, is devestating when loads of immortals come into play T_T)
On August 12 2012 02:11 Qikz wrote: Thanks for the advice Nightmare, I didn't think about putting a PF near my natural ramp since I didn't think it'd fit, but if I have that I can probably leave some tanks with it too to stop anything getting in for atleast long enough for my army to get back. Nukes is a cool idea too, I never thought of really using them as I keep forgetting to get ghosts (which as I just found out, is devestating when loads of immortals come into play T_T)
Another thing you could do is put 1-2 OCs there instead of PFs, and have ~2 tanks there, (like if you are on 3 or 4 base and floating lots of minerals), then later on if you need to take your 4th/5th then you can replace the OCs with PFs since you're more spread out.
http://drop.sc/packs/1286 Personally I don't think these are very good, but maybe you guys will disagree. I renamed two replays that were intense to play, and I guess I'd recommend them. I haven't watched them myself so maybe they actually suck. Both were from a single clanwar. They're the reps that start with "tvt" and "tvp" respectively.
Some of the tvzs are bansheeless (at least in the opening). I absolutely do not recommend playing that way unless you have no choice. I find it incredibly difficult personally, but practiced it because sometimes you have no choice but to play that way.
When going mech in TvZ when do you start your mech upgrades? It takes so much gas just to set up factories and making units that I constantly find myself behind on upgrades.
Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
you do +1 defense first? why?
I've been doing this 1 rax expand, w/ double gas + 3rd CC, and it's worked out pretty well but i'm not too sure how to defend aggression or unit comp that i should be going for
i've been getting 3-4 thors out first, before even starting tanks, and i'm not sure that's the proper way?
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
I normally open 1-rax FE into 4 rax pressure when he takes his 3rd. While building up my marine count for the push I take 3 gasses and build 4 factories (3 with techlab, 1 with reactor). I produce mostly tanks in the beginning since my marines (which I never upgrade) makes it possible to delays thors for a while. I then push out and take my 3rd shortly followed by my 4th while going into Thor/Hellion production.
The combo I am trying to go for in late game is Thor/Hellion/Raven with SM. Problem is that it is very risky to try to prioritize Ravens in early late game since they do little against Ultras at that point in time and you often do not have enough Ravens yet to combat BroodLords. Which I why I try to go for 2/2 Mech before Ravens since Thors with an upgrade advantage beat the typically 1/0 upgraded BroodLords, provided you have enough Thors.
But the problem is that I cannot get enough gas for my upgrades in time since I need to get tanks initially to secure my 3rd and then build up my Thor count so that I can hold early late game attacks.
On August 12 2012 16:26 MockHamill wrote: When going mech in TvZ when do you start your mech upgrades? It takes so much gas just to set up factories and making units that I constantly find myself behind on upgrades.
I like 3 OC openings into double armory before your 2nd and 3rd factory in TvZ. You get your upgrades started pretty early and as long as you keep up with them you will have 3/3 done fairly quickly and be able to start your air upgrades.
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
you do +1 defense first? why?
I've been doing this 1 rax expand, w/ double gas + 3rd CC, and it's worked out pretty well but i'm not too sure how to defend aggression or unit comp that i should be going for
i've been getting 3-4 thors out first, before even starting tanks, and i'm not sure that's the proper way?
I don't think there is a flat out best option, attack or defense. It's up to you, but of course it would effect the way you play. I like defense because the way I open is I go hellion banshee, and get a max of 4 thors.
If I see he's getting mutas I just get 4 thors and if he gets early, i automatically win by pushing. If he gets later mutas (and makes enough roaches for defense), then I can still max out at 200/200 quickly and push while taking my fourth, with optional tanks (not sure if better or not -- i guess it depends how roach heavy he is -- one style would be to go lower on the thor count but just build a few turrets with your push, i think that's really sexy).
If during my hellion banshee harass I am not able to find out what he's doing, i get up to 4 thors anyways until I know what tech he is going (muta or infestor).
If he goes infestor, I don't need thors, I can skip right to tanks. You can then upgrade attack instead of defense.
If he goes mutas though, you will have thors. Attack does not help because hellion or thor do not really gain an advantage on roaches, thors still 2 shot roaches, thors still 1 shot zerglings, and hellions still 2 shot zerglings. Attack and defense both work about equally well for thors vs mutas. So I pick defense first. I have a stronger midgame. But yes, because of this, my attack upgrade will be lower later on when I do have tanks. This is a downside I guess.
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
I normally open 1-rax FE into 4 rax pressure when he takes his 3rd. While building up my marine count for the push I take 3 gasses and build 4 factories (3 with techlab, 1 with reactor). I produce mostly tanks in the beginning since my marines (which I never upgrade) makes it possible to delays thors for a while. I then push out and take my 3rd shortly followed by my 4th while going into Thor/Hellion production.
The combo I am trying to go for in late game is Thor/Hellion/Raven with SM. Problem is that it is very risky to try to prioritize Ravens in early late game since they do little against Ultras at that point in time and you often do not have enough Ravens yet to combat BroodLords. Which I why I try to go for 2/2 Mech before Ravens since Thors with an upgrade advantage beat the typically 1/0 upgraded BroodLords, provided you have enough Thors.
But the problem is that I cannot get enough gas for my upgrades in time since I need to get tanks initially to secure my 3rd and then build up my Thor count so that I can hold early late game attacks.
Hm sorry but I can't really give you advice on that then. I'm unfamiliar with that kind of build. I would think though, that you would want double armories because your mech is delayed unless you can make an early armory while you're still on marines? Idk.
I haven't played around specifically to try to survive with thor hellion raven, but vikings and banshees and tanks make it so much easier, so i would advise against it. I don't see how you would deal with infestors NP'ing your entire army, or what would happen if he goes pure mass roach. You don't have tank splash to deal with roach/infestor and even though you have SM, a good zerg should be able to fungal/NP those ravens before they get into 6 range. Even against roaches, yes SM is powerful but as a 200 gas unit that takes a long time to gain enough energy... not to mention the upgrades you need for the Raven, it doesn't seem nearly as efficient as simply getting 1 tank and 1 viking for each raven you have (vikings for BL/corruptor/vision). It's the same amount of gas. Yes, it takes much more minerals of course, but minerals are not a limiting factor in TvZ mech. If a tank shoots twice, that pretty much already does about the same as 1 SM, and usually they fire several times in a battle.
To make that style work it seems like you would have to harass a lot to prevent zerg from just attacking you, but roaches are really good against both auto turrets and hellions. But if it's working for you, please let me know how :D
On August 13 2012 07:54 ConstantSc wrote: Any of you higher mech players been testing the waters with Medivac Mech drops? if so.. Any success?
I'm not a higher mech player but I've been trying some 2 tank 4 hellion drops in TvP like the vulture/tank drops from Brood War and they seem to be alright if it's a decent enough position and I can siege up. The hellions can funnel the zealots in the protoss sim city and also the tanks shoot down the stalkers.
On August 13 2012 07:54 ConstantSc wrote: Any of you higher mech players been testing the waters with Medivac Mech drops? if so.. Any success?
I'm not a higher mech player but I've been trying some 2 tank 4 hellion drops in TvP like the vulture/tank drops from Brood War and they seem to be alright if it's a decent enough position and I can siege up. The hellions can funnel the zealots in the protoss sim city and also the tanks shoot down the stalkers.
It's just a shame there's no spidermine :/
Ye that would have been the cream on top but I've been dropping thirds and fourths while a small drop takes attention in the main to some success.. Just trying to get more mobile without sinking gas into banshees
On August 13 2012 07:54 ConstantSc wrote: Any of you higher mech players been testing the waters with Medivac Mech drops? if so.. Any success?
I'm not a higher mech player but I've been trying some 2 tank 4 hellion drops in TvP like the vulture/tank drops from Brood War and they seem to be alright if it's a decent enough position and I can siege up. The hellions can funnel the zealots in the protoss sim city and also the tanks shoot down the stalkers.
It's just a shame there's no spidermine :/
Ye that would have been the cream on top but I've been dropping thirds and fourths while a small drop takes attention in the main to some success.. Just trying to get more mobile without sinking gas into banshees
One other reason I think dropping in Mech TvP can work is usually they won't prepare for drops if they see mech since who the hell (first of all plays mech TvP) and secondly who the heck drops with it. :p
Tommorow if I get a game going on Ohana against a Protoss I really want to just try and doom drop his main. I'd like to see him attack up his small ramp into my army.
On August 13 2012 07:54 ConstantSc wrote: Any of you higher mech players been testing the waters with Medivac Mech drops? if so.. Any success?
I'm not a higher mech player but I've been trying some 2 tank 4 hellion drops in TvP like the vulture/tank drops from Brood War and they seem to be alright if it's a decent enough position and I can siege up. The hellions can funnel the zealots in the protoss sim city and also the tanks shoot down the stalkers.
It's just a shame there's no spidermine :/
Ye that would have been the cream on top but I've been dropping thirds and fourths while a small drop takes attention in the main to some success.. Just trying to get more mobile without sinking gas into banshees
One other reason I think dropping in Mech TvP can work is usually they won't prepare for drops if they see mech since who the hell (first of all plays mech TvP) and secondly who the heck drops with it. :p
Tommorow if I get a game going on Ohana against a Protoss I really want to just try and doom drop his main. I'd like to see him attack up his small ramp into my army.
Also you would need a lot of medivacs haha, even if you don't drop your whole army you would still need maybe 10 medivacs to transfer 5 tanks 2 hellions 5 thors, you could use that 1000/1000 for 2-3 more BCs for your army ^^.
Hellion drops can work well though especially if they're not putting up canons or leaving units at home. I've noticed that against templar tech opening, mech players still get a starport but instead of getting vikings, they just make medivacs and drop hellions. I guess it's more effective since they don't have colossi for splash -- even if they leave 4 stalkers in each mineral line, you can still kill lots of probes with 4 BFH unless they have canons. They have archons but those are only 3 range and using storm would be costly, not to mention the hellions can just run outside of it. Also I guess a protoss who opens templar tech has a slightly more immobile army because of HTs instead of colossi. Another thing is that HTs are more gas heavy, so perhaps they'll have less sentries to FF. These are the only reasons I can think of as to why they drop [more often] vs templar. Maybe another reason is because they want that starport to be up early just in case rather than late, so they don't want to waste it by not producing anything?
Regarding drops though... I have tried doing 1-2 thor drops against protoss if they're expanding fast, or to try to snipe 1-2 forges, or to harass when he's maxed out. Canons are pretty ineffective against thors, and you would need ~10 gateway to deal with it. Compared to 2 MM drops, yeah it is a little more costly, and they don't need as many warp ins to deal with it if you micro well, but if you have 2 thors, you can drop immediately, instead of waiting for them to come out then stimming. You can unload them much faster and so if you want to snipe something, it is pretty quick. If they have pylons around the perimeter and you're dropping, then they'll see the under attack alert. It is really easy to snipe tech buildings with 2 thor drops because by the time he reacts and the units finish warping in, the tech building will already basically be dead, with the 2 thors hitting for a total of ~150 dmg with upgrades. A forge only has 400/400 hp/shield. Another advantage the thor drops have to MM drops is, since you're only dropping 1 unit per medivac and don't need to worry about stimming, it is easy to fly around their base and snipe their zealot/stalkers lying around. Against MM drops they can just leave them where they were after the drop is fended off, and the chargelots can charge in when the MM drop 1 by 1, but with double thor you can just keep picking off gateway units. He would need to then keep his units more clumped, which allows you more space to drop to snipe pylons or such. Of course if he's watching the minimap the drop should be defended with ease, but the same can be said with MM drops. Furthermore, sometimes they're not paying attention because, well, who would expect mech players to drop, and I can actually snipe a nexus (especially if they are trying to take advantage of you by taking a lot more expansions, like expanding 2 times at once, or I saw them warp in a wave of units already and know that i have a huge window to kill that nexus). For better players I guess this will be less effective, but it is still something you can consider if you want to take advantage of your opponent playing suboptimally.
I just got Wrecked by Blink stalker off 2 bases as mech.. slow unseiging and slow thors.. got raped.. What can I do to defend my main and naturals from blink stalkers? other than the obvious bunkers with marines..
On August 13 2012 18:27 ConstantSc wrote: I just got Wrecked by Blink stalker off 2 bases as mech.. slow unseiging and slow thors.. got raped.. What can I do to defend my main and naturals from blink stalkers? other than the obvious bunkers with marines..
Make sure you have your tanks sieged up on time. Sounds obvious but it's really important. If you lose an early tank, he can easily snowball his numbers and keep sniping tanks/thors without losing enough stalkers. It hurts less to pull SCVs to help defend than if you're playing with bio since minerals aren't a limiting factor, and it should be easy to fill up 4 gas (only 12 SCVs lol), so don't be afraid to pull your SCVs many many times. Takes forever for stalkers to kill them anyways. It can take some practice/experience to know when to pull them and if you are losing too many or not though. What I do is position my tanks so that they're a little spread out (esp maps with big mains like shak) so that you can cover wherever you blink in, but so that if they want to kill a tank, they get shot by the other tanks. This way they also can't just blink onto a clump of tanks before your SCVs get there to tank/attack/repair. Another benefit is that he may not know exactly how many tanks you have. If you keep only 1 bunker at your natural, make sure you have a few SCVs sitting there ready to repair. If he snipes that with his blink stalkers, it will be very hard to get up a new bunker because he'll just keep poking back in. You want to try not to use so many bunkers, but you also don't want to keep so many tanks at your natural since you want to cover your main. (This is at least for maps where they have a ramp at the natural, and if they want to enter your nat either by blinking or walking in they'll have to run through the bunker(s), which is almost all maps these days)
Position your buildings smartly. On some maps like Ohana and Daybreak, you should have no problem with blink stalkers because there are so few ways they can blink into your nat/main. You can put the buildings in a line (depots connecting them if you wish to walk through) and put tanks behind it, that way the stalkers blinking in will have to walk around the wall to get to the tanks. This gives you time to pull SCVs and whatnot and to kill some stalkers to prevent him from snowballing too hard, if at all. On maps like Daybreak, you can position buildings very easily to shut down blink stalkers. Aside from the natural which would have the bunker(s) and some of your army there, the only place you need to worry about is that small area right next to your main ramp where they can blink up. Position your buildings a few spaces away from the ledge -- this way, if the stalkers blink in, they can't blink past the buildings. Make this wall connect to the edge of the main (put depots so you can go through), and put 1-2 tanks a few spaces behind that. This way, whenever he wants to blink stalkers into your main, he will get shot ~3 times before he can blink again. Getting shot 3 times by 2 tanks will lose him a few stalkers. This 10 seconds also gives you much more time for your production cycle to finish so you get some units to help out. If it's early game this should be no problem to defend. If it's late game and you guys are on multiple bases and (this isn't really a problem on daybreak, but for maps where blinking is better) you think he will or he has been constantly blink harassing in a certain location(s), then set up a wall/tanks there, you could even leave 1 ghost there so he can send off 1-2 EMPs, this will make him lose ~10 stalkers before he can blink again. Usually though lategame, if you're playing tank hellion you want to find ways to force him to not be able to harass you for free (siege his base up, etc) and if you're playing a thor/banshee kind of style then you are usually more defensive and should have your army ready to defend anyways.
Thanks for that, Ye he sniped my first tank and it went down hill from there.. He also macro'd up behind this keeping me contained and worried about where his stalkers would pop up.. Eventually I got too far behind to win.. sigh
Interesting tactics guys. I like the idea of discussing some viable playstyles for mech. As you could mention Im also a terranplayer who likes it to drive his tanks infront of a Protoss Base and make them suffer. Im Playing on the european server my skill level is between rank 20-14 in masterleague and my nickname is MDxZxGanon.
I would like to enjoy your talks about mech in all matchups. So if you all got the time and your also playing on the european servers we could work and play together and test some strategies. Im also able to play Protoss and Zerg on low Master niveau but its better than nothing :x.
If i get the time i could also send you some of my own creations and could explain you my builts. I got like 5-7 builts in TvP and situational builts and all are viable for mech ^^.
Man, getting wrecked by Mutas suck especially when you have Thors but they're too spread out to do much. What's the mech answer to ultras? cause for Bio it's marauders, but I'm not even sure if I should siege tanks for ultras or just keep thor production up
On August 14 2012 00:20 Qikz wrote: Is there a dedicated Mech chat thing on Europe? If there is I want to be in it. ^^
There's channel 'mech', not many guys in there though. Just hang out in that channel until someone drops by!
On August 14 2012 00:23 Chaggi wrote: Man, getting wrecked by Mutas suck especially when you have Thors but they're too spread out to do much. What's the mech answer to ultras? cause for Bio it's marauders, but I'm not even sure if I should siege tanks for ultras or just keep thor production up
ughuuu losing an army sucks too
Thors are good against Ultras, tanks are okay but I find them to have not enough power to deal with ultras. Dont forget to block Ultras with your hellions so the Thors stay alive, also targetfiring down ultras one or two at the time is better than having them all at half health of course.
Personally I keep some tanks because I'm really scared of infestors added to the ultra army, with their neurals its a very one-sided fight.
On August 14 2012 00:23 Chaggi wrote: Man, getting wrecked by Mutas suck especially when you have Thors but they're too spread out to do much. What's the mech answer to ultras? cause for Bio it's marauders, but I'm not even sure if I should siege tanks for ultras or just keep thor production up
ughuuu losing an army sucks too
I'm only a gold player so my advice might not be great but getting ravens for pdd helps with mutas. Also, slowing your advance and bringing SCVs with yr army to build turrets wherever your army is can use up your minerals and controls the zerg army movement.
On August 14 2012 00:23 Chaggi wrote: Man, getting wrecked by Mutas suck especially when you have Thors but they're too spread out to do much. What's the mech answer to ultras? cause for Bio it's marauders, but I'm not even sure if I should siege tanks for ultras or just keep thor production up
ughuuu losing an army sucks too
I'm only a gold player so my advice might not be great but getting ravens for pdd helps with mutas. Also, slowing your advance and bringing SCVs with yr army to build turrets wherever your army is can use up your minerals and controls the zerg army movement.
against ultralisk as a mech player is definetely mass thors it's funny how they mass thors crush ultralisk like stuffed animals
if i scout ultralisk i play really thor heavy with some banshees, maybe even battlecruiser depends on your lategame and just create some PF's and force them into a row.
1 thors beats one ultralisk and ultralisk don't have the same range.
I don't think I'm ever going to get involved into a discussion about a unit in a live report thread again. I've always seen ravens as quite viable against clumped corrupters and broodlords and I can use them at my level to great sucess if I have good viking numbers.
Apparently since I'm not GM though I have no idea what I'm talking about and I'm lying about the fact I can split my air units before an engagement. I don't get it. Why do I even bother reading those threads. T_T
On August 14 2012 07:27 Qikz wrote: I don't think I'm ever going to get involved into a discussion about a unit in a live report thread again. I've always seen ravens as quite viable against clumped corrupters and broodlords and I can use them at my level to great sucess if I have good viking numbers.
Apparently since I'm not GM though I have no idea what I'm talking about and I'm lying about the fact I can split my air units before an engagement. I don't get it. Why do I even bother reading those threads. T_T
Lol just stay out of LR threads dude they're pretty much one step away from being non sub twitch.tv chat.
All the best mech strategies are on this thread anyway
I just won a game barely mech TvP on Ohana, but I've noticed a big problem with that map. How the heck do I push towards a fifth base? Should I take his pocket expansion from his main? I was trying to slow push there but he kept pushing me back and going to the other base was suicide. Luckily I ended up with vikings to take out his last remaining carriers and he had mined out that pocket base anyway so I won on the basis of he couldn't mine to get anymore units where as I could secure the last base with my tanks and mine without giving a damn about my other base.
Hey guys! I just watched the Hack Mech TvP replays again and have a question. Why does Hack build so many Hellions and forsake a High tank count? Yeah perhaps to easily crushed by immos or something but I dont know =/ he just has so many Hellion. Sorry for the Noob question
On August 15 2012 05:45 GumBa wrote: Hey guys! I just watched the Hack Mech TvP replays again and have a question. Why does Hack build so many Hellions and forsake a High tank count? Yeah perhaps to easily crushed by immos or something but I dont know =/ he just has so many Hellion. Sorry for the Noob question
Forsake? Actually he is pumping as many tanks as he can while still getting enough factories/uprgades/starports up. Tanks take a long time to build and are gas expensive. You can barely build 4 tanks constantly if you're on 3 base, but that's only if you have all the factories and upgrades up already. So that's why it's so slow ^^
The hellions are his mineral sink, since there is not much else to spend it on in terms of army. Mass hellion count helps tank for the tanks, and chip away at Immortal shields. Hellions also synergize well with tanks because they both do splash damage, and tanks have smart firing. The hellions also allow you to have some mobility and harassment, and lots of map control. They are sort of dispensable, so if your opponent ever messes up he could lose 10-20 probes and that would be a big advantage.
On August 15 2012 05:45 GumBa wrote: Hey guys! I just watched the Hack Mech TvP replays again and have a question. Why does Hack build so many Hellions and forsake a High tank count? Yeah perhaps to easily crushed by immos or something but I dont know =/ he just has so many Hellion. Sorry for the Noob question
Forsake? Actually he is pumping as many tanks as he can while still getting enough factories/uprgades/starports up. Tanks take a long time to build and are gas expensive. You can barely build 4 tanks constantly if you're on 3 base, but that's only if you have all the factories and upgrades up already. So that's why it's so slow ^^
The hellions are his mineral sink, since there is not much else to spend it on in terms of army. Mass hellion count helps tank for the tanks, and chip away at Immortal shields. Hellions also synergize well with tanks because they both do splash damage, and tanks have smart firing. The hellions also allow you to have some mobility and harassment, and lots of map control. They are sort of dispensable, so if your opponent ever messes up he could lose 10-20 probes and that would be a big advantage.
Yeah but I mean he had like 2 techlab factorys on 3base
so I have a question for any master league mech players who happen to stumble upon it- when I play mech against zerg, im decent at getting my 3ccs up and going at a reasonable rate, also I have good enough positioning (most times) to be able to deal with any roach attacks off of 3 bases and mutalisk harrass before the lategame. The problem that I often have is how to get back on the offensive. I often feel that by the time I am moving out (towards the zerg 4th or 5th depending on how they have been expanding) the zerg has hive tech up and ready for me and I have to retreat/hope to not lose too much as I scramble to get my raven/vikings out. It often goes downhill from there as I pretty much have to let them have map control and hope that I can win one big engagement, but my comp is often too far behind the zergs and I get stomped. I open up with no banshees, often in a totally defensive position and hope that my hellion harrass can do enough damage or at least force enough units to slow down his lategame tech. Am I making any fundamental mistakes with this strategy? Im pretty good at not making any of the classic mistakes with mech (moving unseiged onto creep, not being ready for muta tech switches, etc.) I think I can best summarize my problem by saying that Im good at not dying, but Im bad at being able to kill my opponent. Ile upload some reps as soon as I figure out how, but if anyone reads this and detects a big problem with my strat, any pointers would be welcome http://drop.sc/238738 http://drop.sc/238737 http://drop.sc/238736 PS (for mods) I did make this same post in another guide but I feel that my chances of getting the response that Im looking for are better here, im not sure if the other guide is still active or not
so I have a question for any master league mech players who happen to stumble upon it- when I play mech against zerg, im decent at getting my 3ccs up and going at a reasonable rate, also I have good enough positioning (most times) to be able to deal with any roach attacks off of 3 bases and mutalisk harrass before the lategame. The problem that I often have is how to get back on the offensive. I often feel that by the time I am moving out (towards the zerg 4th or 5th depending on how they have been expanding) the zerg has hive tech up and ready for me and I have to retreat/hope to not lose too much as I scramble to get my raven/vikings out. It often goes downhill from there as I pretty much have to let them have map control and hope that I can win one big engagement, but my comp is often too far behind the zergs and I get stomped. I open up with no banshees, often in a totally defensive position and hope that my hellion harrass can do enough damage or at least force enough units to slow down his lategame tech. Am I making any fundamental mistakes with this strategy? Im pretty good at not making any of the classic mistakes with mech (moving unseiged onto creep, not being ready for muta tech switches, etc.) I think I can best summarize my problem by saying that Im good at not dying, but Im bad at being able to kill my opponent. Ile upload some reps as soon as I figure out how, but if anyone reads this and detects a big problem with my strat, any pointers would be welcome http://drop.sc/238738 http://drop.sc/238737 http://drop.sc/238736 PS (for mods) I did make this same post in another guide but I feel that my chances of getting the response that Im looking for are better here, im not sure if the other guide is still active or not
Why do you need to slow down his hive tech? Why do you need to "kill him"? Personally if I was you, I know I'm not masters but I've been playing mech for a good while now and I think the best thing you can do is if you say you're good at not dying. just keep doing that. Split the map and build a massive bank then let the map run out of minerals, keep defending until your opponent gives up. :p
so I have a question for any master league mech players who happen to stumble upon it- when I play mech against zerg, im decent at getting my 3ccs up and going at a reasonable rate, also I have good enough positioning (most times) to be able to deal with any roach attacks off of 3 bases and mutalisk harrass before the lategame. The problem that I often have is how to get back on the offensive. I often feel that by the time I am moving out (towards the zerg 4th or 5th depending on how they have been expanding) the zerg has hive tech up and ready for me and I have to retreat/hope to not lose too much as I scramble to get my raven/vikings out. It often goes downhill from there as I pretty much have to let them have map control and hope that I can win one big engagement, but my comp is often too far behind the zergs and I get stomped. I open up with no banshees, often in a totally defensive position and hope that my hellion harrass can do enough damage or at least force enough units to slow down his lategame tech. Am I making any fundamental mistakes with this strategy? Im pretty good at not making any of the classic mistakes with mech (moving unseiged onto creep, not being ready for muta tech switches, etc.) I think I can best summarize my problem by saying that Im good at not dying, but Im bad at being able to kill my opponent. Ile upload some reps as soon as I figure out how, but if anyone reads this and detects a big problem with my strat, any pointers would be welcome http://drop.sc/238738 http://drop.sc/238737 http://drop.sc/238736 PS (for mods) I did make this same post in another guide but I feel that my chances of getting the response that Im looking for are better here, im not sure if the other guide is still active or not
Why do you need to slow down his hive tech? Why do you need to "kill him"? Personally if I was you, I know I'm not masters but I've been playing mech for a good while now and I think the best thing you can do is if you say you're good at not dying. just keep doing that. Split the map and build a massive bank then let the map run out of minerals, keep defending until your opponent gives up. :p
well yeah I guess I could play that way, I think the thing I need to do is get to the super lategame terran army of battlecruisers, ravens, vikings, etc. Ive heard that its pretty good
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
you do +1 defense first? why?
I've been doing this 1 rax expand, w/ double gas + 3rd CC, and it's worked out pretty well but i'm not too sure how to defend aggression or unit comp that i should be going for
i've been getting 3-4 thors out first, before even starting tanks, and i'm not sure that's the proper way?
I don't think there is a flat out best option, attack or defense. It's up to you, but of course it would effect the way you play. I like defense because the way I open is I go hellion banshee, and get a max of 4 thors.
If I see he's getting mutas I just get 4 thors and if he gets early, i automatically win by pushing. If he gets later mutas (and makes enough roaches for defense), then I can still max out at 200/200 quickly and push while taking my fourth, with optional tanks (not sure if better or not -- i guess it depends how roach heavy he is -- one style would be to go lower on the thor count but just build a few turrets with your push, i think that's really sexy).
If during my hellion banshee harass I am not able to find out what he's doing, i get up to 4 thors anyways until I know what tech he is going (muta or infestor).
If he goes infestor, I don't need thors, I can skip right to tanks. You can then upgrade attack instead of defense.
If he goes mutas though, you will have thors. Attack does not help because hellion or thor do not really gain an advantage on roaches, thors still 2 shot roaches, thors still 1 shot zerglings, and hellions still 2 shot zerglings. Attack and defense both work about equally well for thors vs mutas. So I pick defense first. I have a stronger midgame. But yes, because of this, my attack upgrade will be lower later on when I do have tanks. This is a downside I guess.
There's a lot of critical upgrades tied to +1 Vehicle Attack in TvZ.
+1 Vehicle Attack lets Sieged Tanks 1-shot Zerglings with +1 armor instead 2-shot +1 Vehicle Attack plus Blue Flame lets Hellions 2-shot Drones instead of 3-shot +1 Vehicle Attack lets Thors 2-shot Mutalisk instead of 3-shot
And then you need +2 Vehicle Attack in order to compensate the Zerg going up to +1 Carapace on Drones and Mutas.
All mech units do splash damage, so they benefit from early attack upgrades even if there isn't a critical upgrade that changes the per shot. I've found that +Attack makes a big deal against Roaches, bigger than Armor. Roaches do big damage slow attacks too so armor doesn't help much when fighting them. Even though Thors and Tanks will still kill Roaches in the same number of direct shots, the extra damage on the Tank+Hellion AOE helps immensely. Another thing to consider is that because Roaches regenerate health so fast, critical upgrades are not very reliable when fighting against them anyway.
Personally when I go mech, I like to go +1 Attack, +2 Attack, +1 Armor, +2 Armor, +3 Armor, +3 Attack. The +3 Attack only really helps with Thors vs Broodlords and Ultras. I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
Of course you can do a 2 or 4 thor push but if your opponent knows what he's doing he'll have enough roaches to easily block that, and then you creally can't have map presence until you have a good number of tanks, and then it'll be constant roach remax vs tank/thor, and then it just becomes turtley until you can get that Raven/BC/Thor composition, which is inevitable if your opponent actually has a clue of what to do.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors,
Have you tried? It's really, really good and if you get them in a nice pocket they can take out infinite structures and units.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
Defensive play is the exact definition of positional play. Tank lines? That's completely positional. It's all about knowing where to set up and where to split the map to give you a good amount of expansions and enough room to go and thor drop.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
On August 12 2012 16:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Depends on your build. Can you specify? There are a lot of different times to build armories and sometimes you may want double armory. If you go hellion expand into cloak banshee, i start my armory at ~7:45 so that it's up in time for muta and upgrade defense first. I build the 2nd one whenever I feel like it, I guess you should try to time it to finish when either +1 defense or +1 attack is done (+1 defense then +1 attack with first armory).
you do +1 defense first? why?
I've been doing this 1 rax expand, w/ double gas + 3rd CC, and it's worked out pretty well but i'm not too sure how to defend aggression or unit comp that i should be going for
i've been getting 3-4 thors out first, before even starting tanks, and i'm not sure that's the proper way?
I don't think there is a flat out best option, attack or defense. It's up to you, but of course it would effect the way you play. I like defense because the way I open is I go hellion banshee, and get a max of 4 thors.
If I see he's getting mutas I just get 4 thors and if he gets early, i automatically win by pushing. If he gets later mutas (and makes enough roaches for defense), then I can still max out at 200/200 quickly and push while taking my fourth, with optional tanks (not sure if better or not -- i guess it depends how roach heavy he is -- one style would be to go lower on the thor count but just build a few turrets with your push, i think that's really sexy).
If during my hellion banshee harass I am not able to find out what he's doing, i get up to 4 thors anyways until I know what tech he is going (muta or infestor).
If he goes infestor, I don't need thors, I can skip right to tanks. You can then upgrade attack instead of defense.
If he goes mutas though, you will have thors. Attack does not help because hellion or thor do not really gain an advantage on roaches, thors still 2 shot roaches, thors still 1 shot zerglings, and hellions still 2 shot zerglings. Attack and defense both work about equally well for thors vs mutas. So I pick defense first. I have a stronger midgame. But yes, because of this, my attack upgrade will be lower later on when I do have tanks. This is a downside I guess.
There's a lot of critical upgrades tied to +1 Vehicle Attack in TvZ.
+1 Vehicle Attack lets Sieged Tanks 1-shot Zerglings with +1 armor instead 2-shot +1 Vehicle Attack plus Blue Flame lets Hellions 2-shot Drones instead of 3-shot +1 Vehicle Attack lets Thors 2-shot Mutalisk instead of 3-shot
And then you need +2 Vehicle Attack in order to compensate the Zerg going up to +1 Carapace on Drones and Mutas.
All mech units do splash damage, so they benefit from early attack upgrades even if there isn't a critical upgrade that changes the per shot. I've found that +Attack makes a big deal against Roaches, bigger than Armor. Roaches do big damage slow attacks too so armor doesn't help much when fighting them. Even though Thors and Tanks will still kill Roaches in the same number of direct shots, the extra damage on the Tank+Hellion AOE helps immensely. Another thing to consider is that because Roaches regenerate health so fast, critical upgrades are not very reliable when fighting against them anyway.
Personally when I go mech, I like to go +1 Attack, +2 Attack, +1 Armor, +2 Armor, +3 Armor, +3 Attack. The +3 Attack only really helps with Thors vs Broodlords and Ultras. I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Hm let me restate my position, I go attack when I don't see mutalisks (infestors) or when he doesn't get early mutas (10-11 mins) as it's autowin when I push (and armor helps more at that point). But most of the time, I see the latter, so I often get defense over attack.
Thors don't 3 shot mutas though, they 6 shot them, and with +1 attack it's 4 shot. Maybe for certain kinds of compositions attack will actually be better when I'm pushing when they get early mutas (and/or depending on how much damage i did to him during my harass), but mutas shouldn't be a problem because I can build turrets, while armor helps against both lings and roaches and allows my army to stay alive longer, thus making my banshees get more dmg in.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
Of course you can do a 2 or 4 thor push but if your opponent knows what he's doing he'll have enough roaches to easily block that, and then you creally can't have map presence until you have a good number of tanks, and then it'll be constant roach remax vs tank/thor, and then it just becomes turtley until you can get that Raven/BC/Thor composition, which is inevitable if your opponent actually has a clue of what to do.
I think this may be dependent on skill level and/or how good you are with multitasking and/or if you have high APM and/or if you decide to just multitask a lot and sacrifice macro/micro. A lot of my games (well the ones where I don't just autowin...), i will be splitting my mech army to different areas of the map, some to defend my base(s), some to siege a corner expansion, banshees harassing somewhere else, hellions killing drones somewhere, and a main army moving around trying to find an opening to kill more bases or gain some advantageous position like the high ground around the middle base on cloud kingdom. Since Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak have lots of expansion paths and counter attack paths, I find these to be the games where I am more active on the map. I guess I like to play a more aggressive style, but a defensive one is also possible (turtling for a deathball).
Edit: The way I'm describing my experiences may make it sound just like bio, where you are dropping and advancing your main marine tank army. But the difference is that the chunks of my army that I'm sending out to harass/kill stuff is not just a-moved but [when there are tanks] i siege them up strategically to get the most out of them. Unlike bio, where once the zerg sends stuff to deal with it and you have to micro against it or run away, with the mech comp you'll always do OK unless if he sends so much over (which may open him up somewhere else). So you put less focus/time/APM on the micro (as in stutter stepping and splitting units), but in return you focus more on the positional play. I send a couple thors, a few tanks to a base, I siege up a couple tanks in range of the hatch and siege the other tanks a bit spread out but also on/below a cliff, and I just leave it alone. The position is secured. Also, the main army that you are moving around is much stronger for sieges because you are upgrading your mech and because, unlike marine tank, you don't have to worry about leapfrogging your tanks so well or else lose 25 marines to 2 fungals. You can push harder, and secure your position more strongly. Hellion harass is like bio drops, but still different. With bio drops, you can be dropping an expansion expecting to kill the defense there and then the drones, maybe the hatch. You can usually drop regardless of where most of his army is, as long as you drop it between the minerals or such. But with hellions and/or banshees, they benefit more when you know the zerg won't have his army there in time to save his drones. You can chase the drones easier with hellions unlike marines, and you can get out easier because you don't have to worry about losing a medivac to a fungal or mutas. Again, there is more focus of where his army is. This doesn't directly relate to positioning but I feel it is very mech-y. With bio, you can win with great micro and constant aggression and pressure. But with mech, you need to focus more on both you and your opponent's composition and position.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
Of course you can do a 2 or 4 thor push but if your opponent knows what he's doing he'll have enough roaches to easily block that, and then you creally can't have map presence until you have a good number of tanks, and then it'll be constant roach remax vs tank/thor, and then it just becomes turtley until you can get that Raven/BC/Thor composition, which is inevitable if your opponent actually has a clue of what to do.
I think this may be dependent on skill level and/or how good you are with multitasking and/or if you have high APM and/or if you decide to just multitask a lot and sacrifice macro/micro. A lot of my games (well the ones where I don't just autowin...), i will be splitting my mech army to different areas of the map, some to defend my base(s), some to siege a corner expansion, banshees harassing somewhere else, hellions killing drones somewhere, and a main army moving around trying to find an opening to kill more bases or gain some advantageous position like the high ground around the middle base on cloud kingdom. Since Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak have lots of expansion paths and counter attack paths, I find these to be the games where I am more active on the map. I guess I like to play a more aggressive style, but a defensive one is also possible (turtling for a deathball).
That's all good, but it's all situational I suppose. Sure, if you do enough damage with banshee/hellion play you can win but that's not positional and you could've easily transitioned into bio. Microing tanks in two different locations is good as well - I'm not trying to say that mech is all 10APM mind over mechanics stuff, I'm just trying to say that it's a tradeoff vs bio.
It's much more difficult positionally when your only positional unit can't shoot at one of the Zerg's best unit iin the late game (as opposed to TvT, where tank play is always viable until the sky terran transition). You can stay active in the midgame and if you're able to deny bases with a good, well executed opening so he can't overwhelm your tank/thor composition with roach/ling/infestor then sometimes you'll win in the midgame but most of the time it'll end up with a highly aggressive opening that turns into really passive play because the mech player is forced to get thors due to the possibility of mutas but he cannot move out due to the fact that Thors vs roaches (which is the correct response) doesn't work until a high number of thors. This passive play allows for the Zerg to take a large amount of bases and overwhelm any moveouts with constant reinforcement of roach/ling/infestor while teching to broodlord (the Zerg can also lose in this phase of the game by dying to hellion/banshee, but again that's not positional play) and then it ends up in a turtlefest.
You can sometimes force this situation by executing an aggressive opening like hellion/banshee or 3rax pressure and doing well with it, but that's a small portion of the games and I think it's silly to play a playstyle that only surfaces in a small fraction of the total games played.
I feel Terran needed more positional units for mech to be used more often in HotS, and Blizz just flubbed it witht he mindset that mech is just factory units.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
I'm completely serious with the never pushing against zerg. If you have enough tanks/vikings with a few thors a lot of turrets and planetaries then you're never going to be over-run. Ever. You get a lot of factories due to your bank and if you lose anything you replace it with what you need, either more tanks or vikings and harass with hellions.
Note, just edited my post, regarding why I feel harassing with mech is not the same as harassing with bio, and does feel like what mech should be to me.
I don't agree with the aggressive opening turning into really passive play. You may be defensive, since roaches are good at this point of the game and you are saturating your third and teching and trying to max out to get into the lategame, but you should be able to defend it if you play well, and zerg will not be ahead [in bases and able to swarm you easily].
the mech player is forced to get thors due to the possibility of mutas but he cannot move out due to the fact that Thors vs roaches (which is the correct response) doesn't work until a high number of thors
I highly disagree with this, yes you need thors but you really only need 6-8 thors for most of the game to be very safe and avoid situations where you have no more AA and have to get chased down or sac your army trying to kill some stuff. You should be able to turret up your bases easily with your mineral sink. Also, thors are not the correct response vs roaches, a high number of thors is indeed strong vs roaches when maxed because roaches are food inefficient (3 roaches gets raped by 1 thor), but tanks work much much better as long as you siege up in time, and get stronger as the game goes on due to clumping and the design of the tanks getting shots off before the zerg engages.
This passive play allows for the Zerg to take a large amount of bases and overwhelm any moveouts with constant reinforcement of roach/ling/infestor while teching to broodlord (the Zerg can also lose in this phase of the game by dying to hellion/banshee, but again that's not positional play) and then it ends up in a turtlefest.
If this is coming from your experiences (or is it observations? or perhaps both), then this is just a case of not punishing the zerg. You can choose to deathball it up if you want and then push out and hopefully kill the zerg fast enough without letting him beat you by delaying you and fighting with 1-2 remaxes, but you can also play aggressively when you see he is expanding too fast or when he does not have enough defense. An example of just turtling up would be Gumiho vs Min, on atlantis spaceship in the recent GSTL finals. It is doable, but I don't prefer that style because I find it boring. Gumiho shows it can be done, so for those losing because they want to play defensively, I think they are not being greedy enough themselves (lots of OCs and expansions, and quickly get lots of seeker missiles ready).
The only time TvZ mech is positional is if the Zerg doesn't have enough bases/larva/resources to completely overwhelm the Terran army with roaches and the Terran can slowly push with tanks and section of parts of the map to contain the Zerg. At this point, the Terran is still vulnerable to counterattacks/drop play, much like in TvT.
Well, the same can be said for zerg. There are always openings to [beneficially] harass and hurt his econ. With good positioning of your army and rally point of your reinforcements, plus turrets and sensor towers, counterattacking as zerg can be hard unless he wants to do some kind of base trade.
You can sometimes force this situation by executing an aggressive opening like hellion/banshee or 3rax pressure and doing well with it, but that's a small portion of the games and I think it's silly to play a playstyle that only surfaces in a small fraction of the total games played.
Well hellion banshee is a really safe opening, it is a "low risk high reward", with the high reward being you getting a third base before he does. You can keep harassing him or at least get some map control with the hellion banshee throughout the game too. Even if it is just scouting around the map to check for his expansions and occasionally snipe a hatch with your banshees if he's trying to expand in a corner.
Edit: Again, I heavily disagree with not being able to use many tanks in TvZ... you don't need that many thors, you can make turrets all over, 2 layers of turrets + sensor tower guarding your main, 2 layers of turrets + sensor tower guarding your third, some for your fourth, and the position of your army should be covering the rest or forcing zerg to defend by sieging/attack him. 8 Thors is a good number, and that's only 48 food.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
Ehhh, but they'll just go pure air and the tanks will just be empty supply, they might as well be bunkered marauders for all the damage they're going to deal to corruptor/bl. The Zerg will just keep you contained because if you move out your Vikings will get fungaled and then will get killed by Corruptors and then you'll get rolled over by a few Broodlords. Sure, it's defensive positional play but you're not allowed to push out at all (well, you can, but it's a very very very slow push). It's just as turtley as teching to BC/Raven/Thor, except it still resembles mech because you're playing positionally. Mech should be able to push out of its base without dying horribly.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
Ehhh, but they'll just go pure air and the tanks will just be empty supply, they might as well be bunkered marauders for all the damage they're going to deal to corruptor/bl. The Zerg will just keep you contained because if you move out your Vikings will get fungaled and then will get killed by Corruptors and then you'll get rolled over by a few Broodlords. Sure, it's defensive positional play but you're not allowed to push out at all (well, you can, but it's a very very very slow push). It's just as turtley as teching to BC/Raven/Thor, except it still resembles mech because you're playing positionally. Mech should be able to push out of its base without dying horribly.
A big problem I have with TvZ mech is that in the late game, you're only getting tanks to shoot Infestors, which I find ridiculous. There's no reason a unit should be so good that you need an entire tank battery to make sure that your air army can survive. Without Infestors, lategame TvZ tank-centric mech would turn into sky terran because you wouldn't really need tanks any longer.
They can't go pure air unless if you failed to punish them, especially because they also need infestors which are very gas heavy to prevent his army from being totally sniped by mass viking with some thor/raven. It's just so gas heavy. Mutas are 1:1 ratio and are not strong in direct engagements, corruptors can't shoot ground, and BLs are slow and can't be everywhere at once.
Tanks do really really well against roach/infestor. In the lategame, when it is BL infestor with some roaches, your tanks keep your position by preventing the zerg from just attacking into your thor/hellion with his roaches. You have to be careful with how fast you move your army via leapfrogging your tanks, or else you may get your army NP'd, or he can just run in with the roaches and kill your thors. The positioning of your units is much more critical than with marine tank, as you need to worry about more things and if you mess up and lose your army, it will probably be very hard to come back. But the longer the game goes, the stronger terran's composition becomes, especially once you start building PFs/turrets to split the map and start stockpiling ravens for seeker missile.
If he is already sitting at your base and sieging your fourth, that's simply the zerg being ahead of you and you failling the positional game (like if he's behind your 4th on the high ground on Cloud Kingdom). You let his deathball get into an advantageous position, instead of seeing his movement beforehand and responding correctly. And again, if your tanks/vikings are positioned well, he cannot fungal your vikings unless he wants to sacrifice some infestors.
About infestor-less zergs, infestors will always be useful, even if zerg wants to get a very air heavy army. He will need the infestors for the vikings and ravens, as I mentioned earlier. Thus, tanks will always be useful. However, you don't have to transition into air... you can add more to support you, but if you transition into air, that's not really mech, so you can't complain about it not being mech anymore. If you want to keep playing with a mech dominant army, that's totally viable, and still strong in its own ways. It'll be very difficult to get to 3/3 BCs WITH ravens, as you can just use all those resources for your already 3/3 mech army, which you already have enough factories for.
On August 15 2012 19:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Note, just edited my post, regarding why I feel harassing with mech is not the same as harassing with bio, and does feel like what mech should be to me.
I don't agree with the aggressive opening turning into really passive play. You may be defensive, since roaches are good at this point of the game and you are saturating your third and teching and trying to max out to get into the lategame, but you should be able to defend it if you play well, and zerg will not be ahead [in bases and able to swarm you easily].
the mech player is forced to get thors due to the possibility of mutas but he cannot move out due to the fact that Thors vs roaches (which is the correct response) doesn't work until a high number of thors
I highly disagree with this, yes you need thors but you really only need 6-8 thors for most of the game to be very safe and avoid situations where you have no more AA and have to get chased down or sac your army trying to kill some stuff. You should be able to turret up your bases easily with your mineral sink. Also, thors are not the correct response vs roaches, a high number of thors is indeed strong vs roaches when maxed because roaches are food inefficient (3 roaches gets raped by 1 thor), but tanks work much much better as long as you siege up in time, and get stronger as the game goes on due to clumping and the design of the tanks getting shots off before the zerg engages.
This passive play allows for the Zerg to take a large amount of bases and overwhelm any moveouts with constant reinforcement of roach/ling/infestor while teching to broodlord (the Zerg can also lose in this phase of the game by dying to hellion/banshee, but again that's not positional play) and then it ends up in a turtlefest.
If this is coming from your experiences (or is it observations? or perhaps both), then this is just a case of not punishing the zerg. You can choose to deathball it up if you want and then push out and hopefully kill the zerg fast enough without letting him beat you by delaying you and fighting with 1-2 remaxes, but you can also play aggressively when you see he is expanding too fast or when he does not have enough defense. An example of just turtling up would be Gumiho vs Min, on atlantis spaceship in the recent GSTL finals. It is doable, but I don't prefer that style because I find it boring. Gumiho shows it can be done, so for those losing because they want to play defensively, I think they are not being greedy enough themselves (lots of OCs and expansions, and quickly get lots of seeker missiles ready).
The only time TvZ mech is positional is if the Zerg doesn't have enough bases/larva/resources to completely overwhelm the Terran army with roaches and the Terran can slowly push with tanks and section of parts of the map to contain the Zerg. At this point, the Terran is still vulnerable to counterattacks/drop play, much like in TvT.
Well, the same can be said for zerg. There are always openings to [beneficially] harass and hurt his econ. With good positioning of your army and rally point of your reinforcements, plus turrets and sensor towers, counterattacking as zerg can be hard unless he wants to do some kind of base trade.
You can sometimes force this situation by executing an aggressive opening like hellion/banshee or 3rax pressure and doing well with it, but that's a small portion of the games and I think it's silly to play a playstyle that only surfaces in a small fraction of the total games played.
Well hellion banshee is a really safe opening, it is a "low risk high reward", with the high reward being you getting a third base before he does. You can keep harassing him or at least get some map control with the hellion banshee throughout the game too. Even if it is just scouting around the map to check for his expansions and occasionally snipe a hatch with your banshees if he's trying to expand in a corner.
Pumping out 6-8 thors off of 2/4 factories takes a long time - long enough for the Zerg to really reach out and grab bases unless you continue to be aggressive with some sort of harass unit, which at some point hurts you more than it hurts the Zerg unless he is very clumsy because it delays your tech.
I didn't mean that thors were the response to roaches, I meant roaches were the response to thors.
I'm not saying multitasking is exclusive to bio, nor that multitasking makes your playstyle akin to bio, I'm just trying to say that bio doesn't have as much of a focus on positional playing and on the flip side, mech play doesn't have as much of a focus on unit control and speed.
Nor am I trying to say that positional play isn't viable in TvZ - all I am trying to say is that positional play only works up until the point where the Zerg can get into the lategame. If you can win all your games before the lategame, more power to you, but if they get to lategame then you're really forced into a situation where you can either rely heavily on Thors and try to end it earlier on in the lategame with a maxed Thor/hellion/tank army, or you can take it into the latelatelategame where you have Thor/Raven/BC. Neither of these options are positional, really - of course, there's a lot of emphasis on securing bases and there's always dances all across the map but that's also present in bio play and is really one of the core elements of sc2 in general - it's not the same thing as a mech vs marine/tank battle in TvT in the middle stages of the game.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
Ehhh, but they'll just go pure air and the tanks will just be empty supply, they might as well be bunkered marauders for all the damage they're going to deal to corruptor/bl. The Zerg will just keep you contained because if you move out your Vikings will get fungaled and then will get killed by Corruptors and then you'll get rolled over by a few Broodlords. Sure, it's defensive positional play but you're not allowed to push out at all (well, you can, but it's a very very very slow push). It's just as turtley as teching to BC/Raven/Thor, except it still resembles mech because you're playing positionally. Mech should be able to push out of its base without dying horribly.
A big problem I have with TvZ mech is that in the late game, you're only getting tanks to shoot Infestors, which I find ridiculous. There's no reason a unit should be so good that you need an entire tank battery to make sure that your air army can survive. Without Infestors, lategame TvZ tank-centric mech would turn into sky terran because you wouldn't really need tanks any longer.
Right, going from my personal experience I really disagree. Your tanks are never useless. You defend with your vikings against corrupters (using the turrets and Thors to help) then kill the Broodlords. After that you'll have your vikings to control the skies and stop him ever going broodlords again and then it forces them into Ultras. Ultras MELT to well positioned/defended tanks. Turrets also stop any drop play and nydus play as you have vision everywhere with sensor towers and the like.
You never, ever get into a position where you get fungalled with your vikings. It's boring, but it works and you'll win the majority of the time. If his broods start killing your planetary wall, who cares? It costs like nothing with your bank. The only problem some people would have playing mech this way (I love it) is it looks and feels extremely slow, slowly leapfrogging to more bases and when they over extend you send about 5 tanks to go punish expansions. it's good because it works and there's not much they can do to punish them.
Let their broodlords damage you, you've got a split map and if all they have is air, they can't push the fact some of your tanks die before you remax with them.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
Ehhh, but they'll just go pure air and the tanks will just be empty supply, they might as well be bunkered marauders for all the damage they're going to deal to corruptor/bl. The Zerg will just keep you contained because if you move out your Vikings will get fungaled and then will get killed by Corruptors and then you'll get rolled over by a few Broodlords. Sure, it's defensive positional play but you're not allowed to push out at all (well, you can, but it's a very very very slow push). It's just as turtley as teching to BC/Raven/Thor, except it still resembles mech because you're playing positionally. Mech should be able to push out of its base without dying horribly.
A big problem I have with TvZ mech is that in the late game, you're only getting tanks to shoot Infestors, which I find ridiculous. There's no reason a unit should be so good that you need an entire tank battery to make sure that your air army can survive. Without Infestors, lategame TvZ tank-centric mech would turn into sky terran because you wouldn't really need tanks any longer.
They can't go pure air unless if you failed to punish them, especially because they also need infestors which are very gas heavy to prevent his army from being totally sniped by mass viking with some thor/raven. It's just so gas heavy. Mutas are 1:1 ratio and are not strong in direct engagements, corruptors can't shoot ground, and BLs are slow and can't be everywhere at once.
Tanks do really really well against roach/infestor. In the lategame, when it is BL infestor with some roaches, your tanks keep your position by preventing the zerg from just attacking into your thor/hellion with his roaches. You have to be careful with how fast you move your army via leapfrogging your tanks, or else you may get your army NP'd, or he can just run in with the roaches and kill your thors. The positioning of your units is much more critical than with marine tank, as you need to worry about more things and if you mess up and lose your army, it will probably be very hard to come back. But the longer the game goes, the stronger terran's composition becomes, especially once you start building PFs/turrets to split the map and start stockpiling ravens for seeker missile.
If he is already sitting at your base and sieging your fourth, that's simply the zerg being ahead of you and you failling the positional game (like if he's behind your 4th on the high ground on Cloud Kingdom). You let his deathball get into an advantageous position, instead of seeing his movement beforehand and responding correctly. And again, if your tanks/vikings are positioned well, he cannot fungal your vikings unless he wants to sacrifice some infestors.
If he's saying it's viable to Thor drop and lose the Thor in order to kill tech, it's gotten to a point in the game where the Zerg can fund air + infestor army (Scarlett is a great example of this kind of play - somehow, she can max on on 15+ Infestors, 25+ Corrupters, and a lot of Broods on 4/5 base).
Tanks are very good vs Infestor/Roach. If you have enough units in the midgame and he can't overwhelm you with waves of roaches and base denial/counterattacks/drops, then it turns into positional play where a) the Terran wins because he pushes all the way to the Zerg's bases, b) the Zerg wins because the Terran slips up in his positioning/map control as you said, or c) it comes to a stalemate at which point the Zerg gets to BL/Corruptor/Infestor at which point the Terran is forced to transition.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
Ehhh, but they'll just go pure air and the tanks will just be empty supply, they might as well be bunkered marauders for all the damage they're going to deal to corruptor/bl. The Zerg will just keep you contained because if you move out your Vikings will get fungaled and then will get killed by Corruptors and then you'll get rolled over by a few Broodlords. Sure, it's defensive positional play but you're not allowed to push out at all (well, you can, but it's a very very very slow push). It's just as turtley as teching to BC/Raven/Thor, except it still resembles mech because you're playing positionally. Mech should be able to push out of its base without dying horribly.
A big problem I have with TvZ mech is that in the late game, you're only getting tanks to shoot Infestors, which I find ridiculous. There's no reason a unit should be so good that you need an entire tank battery to make sure that your air army can survive. Without Infestors, lategame TvZ tank-centric mech would turn into sky terran because you wouldn't really need tanks any longer.
Right, going from my personal experience I really disagree. Your tanks are never useless. You defend with your vikings against corrupters (using the turrets and Thors to help) then kill the Broodlords. After that you'll have your vikings to control the skies and stop him ever going broodlords again and then it forces them into Ultras. Ultras MELT to well positioned/defended tanks. Turrets also stop any drop play and nydus play as you have vision everywhere with sensor towers and the like.
You never, ever get into a position where you get fungalled with your vikings. It's boring, but it works and you'll win the majority of the time. If his broods start killing your planetary wall, who cares? It costs like nothing with your bank. The only problem some people would have playing mech this way (I love it) is it looks and feels extremely slow, slowly leapfrogging to more bases and when they over extend you send about 5 tanks to go punish expansions. it's good because it works and there's not much they can do to punish them.
Let their broodlords damage you, you've got a split map and if all they have is air, they can't push the fact some of your tanks die before you remax with them.
I'm agreeing with you - that is positional play, and I also did say it was very slow and it relies heavily on a viking dance where you're trying to bait his infestors into your tank line so you can kill his air with your vikings. What I'd prefer is a faster paced, non-stalemate mech vs zerg situation where you can push back the Zerg air/infestor army by sectioning off pieces of the map without it ending up in a turtle fest.
On August 15 2012 17:58 Tyrseng wrote: Doesn't anyone else here feel like TvZ mech isn't really mech? I mean sure, your units are 'mechanical', but the essence of mech is positional play and in-depth strategy over the more speed-centric bio. Thors don't have much value positionally, and the only real difference between bio and Thor-centric mech is the fact that it's not viable to drop Thors, and they're too slow to benefit from good unit control. We only have one positional unit in SC2 - the tank. The tank allows for very good positional play in TvT, but tanks are only good in decent numbers so mech in TvT suffers as you cannot defend all the space necessary to support mech - this is why players like Taeja and MMA rip mech apart with sheer power of unit control and multitasking.
I've kind of given up on mech because even though I win a lot of my games, it's just kind of tedious, constantly building up Raven/Thor/BC and then a-moving with some seeker missiles. That isn't positional play, it's just using the defensive power of the tank to turtle up and win.
I play tank centric mech with lots of planeteries for blocking off areas. I find it exactly like mech in TvT if I'm against bio. It's all about defensive positioning and all the same good stuff. Also you don't have to play thor centric mech in TvZ, it only helps slightly against Broodlords and against Ultras tanks work just as well.
I think if you play mech correctly then you should never let the game reach that point.
Why?
I think the whole point of mech is to force the late game. Your mech ball is super powerful in the late and late late game, against ALL compositions. Why wouldn't I just defend and force the late game? Why is there this sudden rule that you HAVE to push against your opponents? Zergs don't do it with broodlords in ZvP, why does Terran? Mech isn't bio, you don't need to timing push to end the game. You can end the game by playing much better at split map situations and defense.
I'm assuming your first paragraph is referring to TvP mech, and I agree - I feel TvP mech is viable but it's a lot harder than bio TvP, although the Battle Hellion should help positional TvP (I refuse to think of the Warhound as a mech unit because it's just a-movey and doesn't have any value positionally, which is what mech is/should be). TvZ mech cannot be tank-centric, because then they'll just go pure air and there's not much you can do without mass Thor vs that, no matter how well you're positioned.
It's not viable to drop Thors because you can't lift them out - the medivacs will get sniped by corruptors and that's a huge loss.
The third paragraph quotes something I didn't say.
I know defensive play is positional play, but you're using positional play as a crutch/stool to get to another a-move non-positional composition.
My first paragraph was talking about TvZ. Mass air is dealt with with your vikings, your thors (not loads) and turrets. If you've split the map you have so many excess minerals and turrets (with hi-sec) and planetaries together are really, really good for any form of air switches.
If your medivac is getting sniped by corrupters, you can't really lift anything out. At the stage of the game where you want to thor drop the cost of one or two thors is very little compared to your bank anyways. If you've that worried about losing them, take vikings with you. You need vikings to deal with Broodlords anyway.
Ehhh, but they'll just go pure air and the tanks will just be empty supply, they might as well be bunkered marauders for all the damage they're going to deal to corruptor/bl. The Zerg will just keep you contained because if you move out your Vikings will get fungaled and then will get killed by Corruptors and then you'll get rolled over by a few Broodlords. Sure, it's defensive positional play but you're not allowed to push out at all (well, you can, but it's a very very very slow push). It's just as turtley as teching to BC/Raven/Thor, except it still resembles mech because you're playing positionally. Mech should be able to push out of its base without dying horribly.
A big problem I have with TvZ mech is that in the late game, you're only getting tanks to shoot Infestors, which I find ridiculous. There's no reason a unit should be so good that you need an entire tank battery to make sure that your air army can survive. Without Infestors, lategame TvZ tank-centric mech would turn into sky terran because you wouldn't really need tanks any longer.
Right, going from my personal experience I really disagree. Your tanks are never useless. You defend with your vikings against corrupters (using the turrets and Thors to help) then kill the Broodlords. After that you'll have your vikings to control the skies and stop him ever going broodlords again and then it forces them into Ultras. Ultras MELT to well positioned/defended tanks. Turrets also stop any drop play and nydus play as you have vision everywhere with sensor towers and the like.
You never, ever get into a position where you get fungalled with your vikings. It's boring, but it works and you'll win the majority of the time. If his broods start killing your planetary wall, who cares? It costs like nothing with your bank. The only problem some people would have playing mech this way (I love it) is it looks and feels extremely slow, slowly leapfrogging to more bases and when they over extend you send about 5 tanks to go punish expansions. it's good because it works and there's not much they can do to punish them.
Let their broodlords damage you, you've got a split map and if all they have is air, they can't push the fact some of your tanks die before you remax with them.
I'm agreeing with you - that is positional play, and I also did say it was very slow and it relies heavily on a viking dance where you're trying to bait his infestors into your tank line so you can kill his air with your vikings. What I'd prefer is a faster paced, non-stalemate mech vs zerg situation where you can push back the Zerg air/infestor army by sectioning off pieces of the map without it ending up in a turtle fest.
That's fair enough, but I was just trying to explain that you can win in the way I described. Positional play (defensively) is still incredibly viable and you don't even need ravens/bcs to win. Just pure ground mech, turrets and vikings.
Also I don't bait his infestors, I just position myself above turrets where he's never going to be able to get to me. When he attacks into me I have a massive viking ark and a lot of turrets/thors shooting his corrupters. He's never going to kill my tanks or my air, it's impossible for him if you're defended well enough.
Edited my previous post again, and it works as a response for your new comment Tyrseng.
Pumping out 6-8 thors off of 2/4 factories takes a long time - long enough for the Zerg to really reach out and grab bases unless you continue to be aggressive with some sort of harass unit, which at some point hurts you more than it hurts the Zerg unless he is very clumsy because it delays your tech.
With my hellion banshee opener, I can easily max out at around the 14-15 minute mark. 6-8 thors does not take very long at all to make, only about 2 minutes if you start from scratch and are on 3 or 4 bases. Also remember that you don't always need 6-8 thors, that's only IF the zerg decides to go very very heavy on mutas (~30 or more that is), which isn't common as he will probably be spending them on roaches, which are better as you can easily turret up and mutas eat too much gas that he needs to save up for BL/infestor, and he can just drop roaches if he wants. Also don't forget you can also make turrets with your push if you want to move out if he has 30+ mutas and you don't have 6-8 thors.
can either rely heavily on Thors
I'm not sure what you mean. Thors are not the center of the army, tanks still are. Thors + turrets to deal with mutas, tanks to deal with roaches infestors and (thanks qikz, totally forgot,) ultras. You want vikings for the corruptors. If you are sticking with thor/hellion/tank, this may be why you feel it is hard to push out as you are probably making more thors than you need since you aren't making vikings and thus need more thors to deal with the BLs, in turn lowering your tank count.
Also I think some replays can help out this kind of discussion ^^
Edit: Also yeah, I don't find myself needing to bait infestors. Vikings are range 9, Infestor fungal is 11 (including radius), tank 13. BLs have 9.5 So if you have your vikings .5 range infront of your tanks to protect them vs BLs, you have 3.5 spaces of leeway. You don't have to leapfrog many tanks at once, and inching forward isn't that slow. Remember, at this point he isn't swarming you anymore, it's just deathball vs deathball. As the mecher, you are trying to engage properly so you want to position your units carefully to prepare for the engagement. It's not positional play on a grand scale across the map, but it still is much more positional than marine tank as you can't just rely on dropping 2+ places on the map and hope the zerg to mess up.
Also, sectioning off areas of the map is very doable. If he's containing you, he can't contain you from all angles. You should be able to send some units off in another direction, or else you simply let him gain an advantageous ground on you and thus you are playing a harder situation than you should be in. BLs are very slow. If you inch toward his army well, you will eventually be able to either scare him from running away or forcing him to commit to the attack because he cannot run away with his BLs. You are in a much more flexible position.
Edit2: Also I know we are sort of posting in between each other's comments so there is some overlap or redundancy in what we're saying ^^;; oh well.
If he's saying it's viable to Thor drop and lose the Thor in order to kill tech, it's gotten to a point in the game where the Zerg can fund air + infestor army (Scarlett is a great example of this kind of play - somehow, she can max on on 15+ Infestors, 25+ Corrupters, and a lot of Broods on 4/5 base).
Tanks are very good vs Infestor/Roach. If you have enough units in the midgame and he can't overwhelm you with waves of roaches and base denial/counterattacks/drops, then it turns into positional play where a) the Terran wins because he pushes all the way to the Zerg's bases, b) the Zerg wins because the Terran slips up in his positioning/map control as you said, or c) it comes to a stalemate at which point the Zerg gets to BL/Corruptor/Infestor at which point the Terran is forced to transition.
Well anything is "viable". It all depends on what your strategy is. Do YOU believe that he has lower multitasking skills than you, and thus you dropping thors will eventually pay off? It's not something that you "need" to do like in marine tank where you must drop to gain a forward position and to harass and such, but it is an option, especially for us lower players who want to punish our opponent as much as we can. Even in high level games though, they do not often protect their tech enough (think of all the times zerg gets sniped by MMM drops, losing pool or hive or greater spire) or they are not keeping up with the terran. Since people don't play perfectly, thor drops can be used successfully as well.
And again, i don't feel you are forced to transition at all. Viking thor hellion tank is a versatile enough composition to deal with zerg's endgame. Terran has the nice bonus of being able to add in more air for an even stronger army, but you don't need to transition into a dominantly air based army. You are still relying on your mech army, you are just using vikings and ravens to support -- they are still a minor part of your army. And the later the game goes, the more army supply you will have thanks to MULEs. A zerg having to fight with a 140 food army with 60 drones (that's not even that high, he has to hope that he can stockpile enough money in time to remax) is kind of funny to see against a 170 food terran army with 30 SCVs and 10-15 OCs.
Again though, I don't think we're going to get anywhere constructively unless we discuss some replays, since each of our experiences and observations will be different.
What the hell are you guys arguing about? Not starcraft, that's for sure. Looks like a big semantics clusterfuck.
I don't remember who said what and I'm not quoting any posts.
The guy who said mech isn't positional is an idiot. How do you beat broodlord/infestor/corruptor? You put a pf in a spot he has to attack, put turrets around that, then position your thors relative to that in phalanx, then position your tanks where you need them (which is only behind the thors if he still has a lot of roach or if you have plenty of ghosts, else they have to be on the side or in front to go after the infestors), while positioning your air units so they don't get fungal'd away from scv/mule/turret.
The guy who said mech isn't mech because it isn't using tanks endgame is silly. There are different ways to play the game, and while tanks are wonderful in the midgame, they don't beat broodlords, and can't attack vs ultra. So obviously you need something else if your intention is to win the game. Mech isn't defined by your opening, isn't strictly defined by your unit composition, and isn't defined by your tactics.
The guy who said mech takes less multi-task than bio is awfully misinformed. Just because you aren't splitting marines in 3 spots doesn't mean you don't need to be as fast as you possibly can. If anything bio takes less multi-task, just more micro. Most people playing bio just play relatively low econ and make a lot of units and attack until they win/lose. With mech you're microing your hellion/banshee in multiple spots on map, scouting enemy's army position and composition so that you can move portions of your army and position them perfectly to handle whatever the enemy chooses to do while carefully starting a production cycle of exactly the right units relevant to what you've scouted, building defenses to facilitate your expansion and army movement/reinforcement, building up your inftrastructure (making the right extra buildings, turning ccs into the right thing at the right spot, etc), and assessing everything else that you have to make sure it's completely efficient. Bio is mindless, the macro is just making more marines, ghosts, and vikings. The micro is intense, but that's all you're doing. And if you blunder your unit control ever it's not "oops I guess I'll have to make more marines and micro them well", it's "oh, I just lost my entire army minus some defenders, now I need to figure out which defenders I need to move just to survive, and need to figure out which units to remake first to rebuild my composition while staying alive".
Ghosts are obviously superior to tanks at getting rid of ghosts.
You can never forgo factory units altogether, I don't care how many bcs, ravens, and ghosts you have. So it's still mech. I have a ton of games where I simply can't afford to add in higher air tech anyway.
It's almost impossible to argue about mech in this thread when the participants are from a range of skill levels using a range of styles.
As far as aggression vs turtling goes, there isn't much difference between mech and bio in that regard vs zerg. Bio can't be aggressive because of fungal and 100 lings, mech can't be aggressive because it needs every engagement to be as favourable as possible, which inherently involves fighting around static defense.
On August 16 2012 02:45 Nightmarjoo wrote: What the hell are you guys arguing about? Not starcraft, that's for sure. Looks like a big semantics clusterfuck.
I don't remember who said what and I'm not quoting any posts.
The guy who said mech isn't positional is an idiot. How do you beat broodlord/infestor/corruptor? You put a pf in a spot he has to attack, put turrets around that, then position your thors relative to that in phalanx, then position your tanks where you need them (which is only behind the thors if he still has a lot of roach or if you have plenty of ghosts, else they have to be on the side or in front to go after the infestors), while positioning your air units so they don't get fungal'd away from scv/mule/turret.
The guy who said mech isn't mech because it isn't using tanks endgame is silly. There are different ways to play the game, and while tanks are wonderful in the midgame, they don't beat broodlords, and can't attack vs ultra. So obviously you need something else if your intention is to win the game. Mech isn't defined by your opening, isn't strictly defined by your unit composition, and isn't defined by your tactics.
The guy who said mech takes less multi-task than bio is awfully misinformed. Just because you aren't splitting marines in 3 spots doesn't mean you don't need to be as fast as you possibly can. If anything bio takes less multi-task, just more micro. Most people playing bio just play relatively low econ and make a lot of units and attack until they win/lose. With mech you're microing your hellion/banshee in multiple spots on map, scouting enemy's army position and composition so that you can move portions of your army and position them perfectly to handle whatever the enemy chooses to do while carefully starting a production cycle of exactly the right units relevant to what you've scouted, building defenses to facilitate your expansion and army movement/reinforcement, building up your inftrastructure (making the right extra buildings, turning ccs into the right thing at the right spot, etc), and assessing everything else that you have to make sure it's completely efficient. Bio is mindless, the macro is just making more marines, ghosts, and vikings. The micro is intense, but that's all you're doing. And if you blunder your unit control ever it's not "oops I guess I'll have to make more marines and micro them well", it's "oh, I just lost my entire army minus some defenders, now I need to figure out which defenders I need to move just to survive, and need to figure out which units to remake first to rebuild my composition while staying alive".
Ghosts are obviously superior to tanks at getting rid of ghosts.
You can never forgo factory units altogether, I don't care how many bcs, ravens, and ghosts you have. So it's still mech. I have a ton of games where I simply can't afford to add in higher air tech anyway.
It's almost impossible to argue about mech in this thread when the participants are from a range of skill levels using a range of styles.
As far as aggression vs turtling goes, there isn't much difference between mech and bio in that regard vs zerg. Bio can't be aggressive because of fungal and 100 lings, mech can't be aggressive because it needs every engagement to be as favourable as possible, which inherently involves fighting around static defense.
Before you go about insulting people, you should probably read what they write - otherwise, you just sound extremely pretentious.
I did not say mech is not positional play - I said the exact opposite.
I did not say mech takes less multi-task than bio. I said it does not rely as heavily on it.
If you want to join what was a constructive discussion, by all means, feel free to do so. However, ignoring 90% of what was discussed in the discussion and calling the participants "idiots", "mis-informed", and "silly" isn't helpful, and it makes you look really stupid when you were calling someone an idiot over something they actually didn't say.
You're making it sound like this discussion was a petty argument, and you're the pretentious douchebag who's supposed to come break it up - on the contrary, we were discussing positional play in late game TvZ and you somehow felt it necessary to belittle the statements and insult the discussers.
Guys, guys, can't we all get along? The people we all have problems with is those people who refuse to make mech standard! T_T
In other news I don't know what the heck I've done but I've not lost a TvT in ages. I just seem to be really good at never getting broken. People keep trying to early tank/marine push me, I push that and eventually split the map. They go into an air transition and I win due to all my turrets and the 8 starports I have pumping out vikings when I notice them switch.
On August 16 2012 02:45 Nightmarjoo wrote: What the hell are you guys arguing about? Not starcraft, that's for sure. Looks like a big semantics clusterfuck.
I don't remember who said what and I'm not quoting any posts.
The guy who said mech isn't positional is an idiot. How do you beat broodlord/infestor/corruptor? You put a pf in a spot he has to attack, put turrets around that, then position your thors relative to that in phalanx, then position your tanks where you need them (which is only behind the thors if he still has a lot of roach or if you have plenty of ghosts, else they have to be on the side or in front to go after the infestors), while positioning your air units so they don't get fungal'd away from scv/mule/turret.
The guy who said mech isn't mech because it isn't using tanks endgame is silly. There are different ways to play the game, and while tanks are wonderful in the midgame, they don't beat broodlords, and can't attack vs ultra. So obviously you need something else if your intention is to win the game. Mech isn't defined by your opening, isn't strictly defined by your unit composition, and isn't defined by your tactics.
The guy who said mech takes less multi-task than bio is awfully misinformed. Just because you aren't splitting marines in 3 spots doesn't mean you don't need to be as fast as you possibly can. If anything bio takes less multi-task, just more micro. Most people playing bio just play relatively low econ and make a lot of units and attack until they win/lose. With mech you're microing your hellion/banshee in multiple spots on map, scouting enemy's army position and composition so that you can move portions of your army and position them perfectly to handle whatever the enemy chooses to do while carefully starting a production cycle of exactly the right units relevant to what you've scouted, building defenses to facilitate your expansion and army movement/reinforcement, building up your inftrastructure (making the right extra buildings, turning ccs into the right thing at the right spot, etc), and assessing everything else that you have to make sure it's completely efficient. Bio is mindless, the macro is just making more marines, ghosts, and vikings. The micro is intense, but that's all you're doing. And if you blunder your unit control ever it's not "oops I guess I'll have to make more marines and micro them well", it's "oh, I just lost my entire army minus some defenders, now I need to figure out which defenders I need to move just to survive, and need to figure out which units to remake first to rebuild my composition while staying alive".
Ghosts are obviously superior to tanks at getting rid of ghosts.
You can never forgo factory units altogether, I don't care how many bcs, ravens, and ghosts you have. So it's still mech. I have a ton of games where I simply can't afford to add in higher air tech anyway.
It's almost impossible to argue about mech in this thread when the participants are from a range of skill levels using a range of styles.
As far as aggression vs turtling goes, there isn't much difference between mech and bio in that regard vs zerg. Bio can't be aggressive because of fungal and 100 lings, mech can't be aggressive because it needs every engagement to be as favourable as possible, which inherently involves fighting around static defense.
Before you go about insulting people, you should probably read what they write - otherwise, you just sound extremely pretentious.
I did not say mech is not positional play - I said the exact opposite.
I did not say mech takes less multi-task than bio. I said it does not rely as heavily on it.
If you want to join what was a constructive discussion, by all means, feel free to do so. However, ignoring 90% of what was discussed in the discussion and calling the participants "idiots", "mis-informed", and "silly" isn't helpful, and it makes you look really stupid when you were calling someone an idiot over something they actually didn't say.
You're making it sound like this discussion was a petty argument, and you're the pretentious douchebag who's supposed to come break it up - on the contrary, we were discussing positional play in late game TvZ and you somehow felt it necessary to belittle the statements and insult the discussers.
I would like to join the discussion!
I really don't agree that the Tank has to be the heart of Mech play (as the link you gave makes the claim) , and I do think Mech is still very positional in the late game vs Zerg. Obviously more so in TvT (and TvP if you play that). But positioning is still very important at all stages of TvZ. The only time I find it really isn't is when you have essentially 'won' because the Zerg just hasn't gotten the appropriate tech in time or has just too weak of an economy, but because Zerg can reinforce so quickly you have to fight off an army or two before you truly have won. Anyways, back to late game TvZ. Vs Brood Lord Infestor you do, suddenly, have the more mobile army. And so the positioning becomes a bit different. Positional play is, in my humble opinion, being mindful of where best to put your units to maximize their effectiveness. Every race and style uses this, but in most situations, Mech lives and dies by it more than the other races. And this is true for every Mech unit I have found. Hellions help you both scout your enemies position, but also abuse it. It also requires specific positioning during engagements: Either behind your Mech army to roast Zerglings, Broodlings, and Banelings (to an extent), or in front of it to shield from Roaches and Ultralisks. This makes it a very positional unit. The Siege Tank I won't explain as you agree it is a very positional unit. In some ways the most. The Thor is essentially the Siege Tank against Mutalisks. Against Mutalisks it serves almost the exact same role as Siege Tanks do against Roaches. You position in key places to defend from Mutalisk attacks. On top of this Thor can be used as a mobile sim-city of sorts (especially with SCV repair), when positioned to protect your Siege Tanks and/or Hellions, depending on the composition you face. The same goes against Ultralisks, and yes, even Brood Lords, it is just a completely different type of positioning.
Anyways, I would like to address something that seems to be at the heart of this Positioning debate. That Positioning is the only tactical emphasis for Mech. I would like to put forth the idea that in SC2 Mech is reliant on 2 key Tactics, not just 1. Positioning AND Target Fire. Positioning is something you do before battles, it's what keeps you active on the map and aware of your opponents army. But Focus Fire is just as central to SC2 Mech and makes all the difference in battles. This difference from BW is, IMO, due to the increased amount of Splash for Mech units, meaning you can do multiple times more damage with Target Fire. Every single unit has it. And on the same token, the increased clumping makes Target Fire considerably more important. So just because a unit isn't very heavy on the positioning side doesn't make it not Mech, IMO, as long as it is balanced by being heavy on the Target Fire side. Hellions are 50/50 between positioning and target fire. Tanks favor the positioning aspect, and Thors favor the target fire aspect. There are situations for all 3 units where one Tactic is far more important than the other. I think this balance among the units is something we definitely see in HotS. While Widow Mines are literally all positioning, the Warhound is, or appears to be, 100% target fire. I don't think it is even up for debate whether or not High Level players will be turning off auto-cast on Warhounds to pick out Immortals and Siege Tanks and ignore Sentries, Stalkers, and Hellions. The unit will be almost all about target firing key units. So while I understand the complaint that it has no positioning and thus isn't a true Mech unit, I do not think that is what Mech is all about anymore. Like it or not.
On August 16 2012 02:45 Nightmarjoo wrote: What the hell are you guys arguing about? Not starcraft, that's for sure. Looks like a big semantics clusterfuck.
I don't remember who said what and I'm not quoting any posts.
The guy who said mech isn't positional is an idiot. How do you beat broodlord/infestor/corruptor? You put a pf in a spot he has to attack, put turrets around that, then position your thors relative to that in phalanx, then position your tanks where you need them (which is only behind the thors if he still has a lot of roach or if you have plenty of ghosts, else they have to be on the side or in front to go after the infestors), while positioning your air units so they don't get fungal'd away from scv/mule/turret.
The guy who said mech isn't mech because it isn't using tanks endgame is silly. There are different ways to play the game, and while tanks are wonderful in the midgame, they don't beat broodlords, and can't attack vs ultra. So obviously you need something else if your intention is to win the game. Mech isn't defined by your opening, isn't strictly defined by your unit composition, and isn't defined by your tactics.
The guy who said mech takes less multi-task than bio is awfully misinformed. Just because you aren't splitting marines in 3 spots doesn't mean you don't need to be as fast as you possibly can. If anything bio takes less multi-task, just more micro. Most people playing bio just play relatively low econ and make a lot of units and attack until they win/lose. With mech you're microing your hellion/banshee in multiple spots on map, scouting enemy's army position and composition so that you can move portions of your army and position them perfectly to handle whatever the enemy chooses to do while carefully starting a production cycle of exactly the right units relevant to what you've scouted, building defenses to facilitate your expansion and army movement/reinforcement, building up your inftrastructure (making the right extra buildings, turning ccs into the right thing at the right spot, etc), and assessing everything else that you have to make sure it's completely efficient. Bio is mindless, the macro is just making more marines, ghosts, and vikings. The micro is intense, but that's all you're doing. And if you blunder your unit control ever it's not "oops I guess I'll have to make more marines and micro them well", it's "oh, I just lost my entire army minus some defenders, now I need to figure out which defenders I need to move just to survive, and need to figure out which units to remake first to rebuild my composition while staying alive".
Ghosts are obviously superior to tanks at getting rid of ghosts.
You can never forgo factory units altogether, I don't care how many bcs, ravens, and ghosts you have. So it's still mech. I have a ton of games where I simply can't afford to add in higher air tech anyway.
It's almost impossible to argue about mech in this thread when the participants are from a range of skill levels using a range of styles.
As far as aggression vs turtling goes, there isn't much difference between mech and bio in that regard vs zerg. Bio can't be aggressive because of fungal and 100 lings, mech can't be aggressive because it needs every engagement to be as favourable as possible, which inherently involves fighting around static defense.
Before you go about insulting people, you should probably read what they write - otherwise, you just sound extremely pretentious.
I did not say mech is not positional play - I said the exact opposite.
I did not say mech takes less multi-task than bio. I said it does not rely as heavily on it.
If you want to join what was a constructive discussion, by all means, feel free to do so. However, ignoring 90% of what was discussed in the discussion and calling the participants "idiots", "mis-informed", and "silly" isn't helpful, and it makes you look really stupid when you were calling someone an idiot over something they actually didn't say.
You're making it sound like this discussion was a petty argument, and you're the pretentious douchebag who's supposed to come break it up - on the contrary, we were discussing positional play in late game TvZ and you somehow felt it necessary to belittle the statements and insult the discussers.
I would like to join the discussion!
I really don't agree that the Tank has to be the heart of Mech play (as the link you gave makes the claim) , and I do think Mech is still very positional in the late game vs Zerg. Obviously more so in TvT (and TvP if you play that). But positioning is still very important at all stages of TvZ. The only time I find it really isn't is when you have essentially 'won' because the Zerg just hasn't gotten the appropriate tech in time or has just too weak of an economy, but because Zerg can reinforce so quickly you have to fight off an army or two before you truly have won. Anyways, back to late game TvZ. Vs Brood Lord Infestor you do, suddenly, have the more mobile army. And so the positioning becomes a bit different. Positional play is, in my humble opinion, being mindful of where best to put your units to maximize their effectiveness. Every race and style uses this, but in most situations, Mech lives and dies by it more than the other races. And this is true for every Mech unit I have found. Hellions help you both scout your enemies position, but also abuse it. It also requires specific positioning during engagements: Either behind your Mech army to roast Zerglings, Broodlings, and Banelings (to an extent), or in front of it to shield from Roaches and Ultralisks. This makes it a very positional unit. The Siege Tank I won't explain as you agree it is a very positional unit. In some ways the most. The Thor is essentially the Siege Tank against Mutalisks. Against Mutalisks it serves almost the exact same role as Siege Tanks do against Roaches. You position in key places to defend from Mutalisk attacks. On top of this Thor can be used as a mobile sim-city of sorts (especially with SCV repair), when positioned to protect your Siege Tanks and/or Hellions, depending on the composition you face. The same goes against Ultralisks, and yes, even Brood Lords, it is just a completely different type of positioning.
Anyways, I would like to address something that seems to be at the heart of this Positioning debate. That Positioning is the only tactical emphasis for Mech. I would like to put forth the idea that in SC2 Mech is reliant on 2 key Tactics, not just 1. Positioning AND Target Fire. Positioning is something you do before battles, it's what keeps you active on the map and aware of your opponents army. But Focus Fire is just as central to SC2 Mech and makes all the difference in battles. This difference from BW is, IMO, due to the increased amount of Splash for Mech units, meaning you can do multiple times more damage with Target Fire. Every single unit has it. And on the same token, the increased clumping makes Target Fire considerably more important. So just because a unit isn't very heavy on the positioning side doesn't make it not Mech, IMO, as long as it is balanced by being heavy on the Target Fire side. Hellions are 50/50 between positioning and target fire. Tanks favor the positioning aspect, and Thors favor the target fire aspect. There are situations for all 3 units where one Tactic is far more important than the other. I think this balance among the units is something we definitely see in HotS. While Widow Mines are literally all positioning, the Warhound is, or appears to be, 100% target fire. I don't think it is even up for debate whether or not High Level players will be turning off auto-cast on Warhounds to pick out Immortals and Siege Tanks and ignore Sentries, Stalkers, and Hellions. The unit will be almost all about target firing key units. So while I understand the complaint that it has no positioning and thus isn't a true Mech unit, I do not think that is what Mech is all about anymore. Like it or not.
I sort of agree with this and yet disagree at the same time. Mech is quite hard to define as of now, is it a style or is it just a composition? As a style, tanks play a very central role and Mech is very focused on positional play. On the other hand, if you say it is a composition, then styles like warhound hellion in HoTS or Thor Banshee Hellion in WoL is also considered mech. The problem is now that units function differently and the tank is weak compared to other, stronger mechanical units, it seems mech isnt one cohesive composition AND style together, it's split.
Anyway, on a different point I think in all three match ups where you choose to engage is very important. Less so in TvT but along the lines of TvP and TvZ its very important. For example, in TvZ if they get a huge surround with mass roaches you could get crushed while if you get a great position on a ramp or something similar, you could utterly destroy them. In TvP its very similar, if they get a huge concave or flank with immortals and chargelots, you'll get screwed over and if you get a narrow choke, you'll destroy him. I think mech really hinges on harassing a lot with hellions to distract the enemy while u get bases and a critical mass of tanks. once u get that critical mass of tanks and upgrades, you can push and destroy your opponent. Either that or you could somehow just expand on certain maps and match with eco and do some huge one punch push that hits a certain timing with like 2/1 upgrades and hit that timing window and obliterate everything. I think probably though, choosing when to mech and when to bio and on what maps will be important to learn if you want to mech at a very high level of play.
Yoshi, what do you feel about Hellion's place in TvZ matchup. I mean, obviously to take out lings/harass but how much do you generally have? When I play TvZ Mech, I always don't feel good about my unit composition.
I played really poorly, and I'm not too sure how to stop him from getting such a huge bank.
My mindset during this was actually that I felt like I was either even or ahead for a good deal of the game, but when I pushed with BC's/Thors/Tanks, and found that I got crushed with the remax in Corruptors, I was just like oh. I went back and saw the replay and saw that his bank was like 2-3x bigger than mine ever was.
I shouldn't have sacced the scvs, and probably should've made more CC's and harassed more. Also I could've been much better with upgrades and maybe included ravens since he clumped up a LOT of his corruptors.
However, if a Zerg expands as heavily as he did, with spines, how do I go about stopping that?
On August 17 2012 02:08 Nightmarjoo wrote: They're for defending thors from lings and broodlings and scouting zerg's composition letting you make the right units in your next production cycle.
I think I've finally found the way I can feel safe against broodlord switches. I mean I always usually hold them off anyway, but what I've started to do is when I get my first starport I just start building and hiding vikings. It doesn't take up too much supply and I stop at about 10-11 then add on starports when i get my fourth. Seemed to work like a charm this last game and I switched into a lot of ravens.
EDIT: Could anyone take a look at this replay and see if I can do anything to end the game quicker? I knew I had the game won due to my positioning but he wouldn't attack in to me and I knew it'd be incredibly dangerous to attack in to him. It eventually ended with me switching to BCs and Vikings since he massed Blink stalkers and void rays, but since he wouldn't attack into me it kind of stale mated. I knew with his warp gates that if I attacked in and lost a single battle I'd lose the game so did everything I could do try and avoid that happening, but it took ages.
I don't mind games like this, but is there anything I can do with any units to maybe force a fight without losing my positioning?
I played really poorly, and I'm not too sure how to stop him from getting such a huge bank.
My mindset during this was actually that I felt like I was either even or ahead for a good deal of the game, but when I pushed with BC's/Thors/Tanks, and found that I got crushed with the remax in Corruptors, I was just like oh. I went back and saw the replay and saw that his bank was like 2-3x bigger than mine ever was.
I shouldn't have sacced the scvs, and probably should've made more CC's and harassed more. Also I could've been much better with upgrades and maybe included ravens since he clumped up a LOT of his corruptors.
However, if a Zerg expands as heavily as he did, with spines, how do I go about stopping that?
On August 17 2012 02:08 Nightmarjoo wrote: They're for defending thors from lings and broodlings and scouting zerg's composition letting you make the right units in your next production cycle.
thanks. I think I always have too many hellions
Mostly bad macro. From early on you missed depots and didn't use your factories constantly. You never expo'd yourself. Suiciding your banshees made preventing his expos impossible. If hellions can't kill drones, use nukes. A few banshee could help kill expos too.
On August 17 2012 06:17 Qikz wrote: I think I've finally found the way I can feel safe against broodlord switches. I mean I always usually hold them off anyway, but what I've started to do is when I get my first starport I just start building and hiding vikings. It doesn't take up too much supply and I stop at about 10-11 then add on starports when i get my fourth. Seemed to work like a charm this last game and I switched into a lot of ravens.
EDIT: Could anyone take a look at this replay and see if I can do anything to end the game quicker? I knew I had the game won due to my positioning but he wouldn't attack in to me and I knew it'd be incredibly dangerous to attack in to him. It eventually ended with me switching to BCs and Vikings since he massed Blink stalkers and void rays, but since he wouldn't attack into me it kind of stale mated. I knew with his warp gates that if I attacked in and lost a single battle I'd lose the game so did everything I could do try and avoid that happening, but it took ages.
I don't mind games like this, but is there anything I can do with any units to maybe force a fight without losing my positioning?
I was just sifting through some of the IEM replays and found the MVP vs Nestea mech game. Also game 2 is good to watch and i think its still relevant if your trying to play mech late game.
I mean units that aren't tanks and vikings. You just sat on 35 tanks and did nothing. If he went carrier you'd lose an expo or two and a fair amount of tanks before you pumped vikings out, then he'd laugh and storm them and/or kill with archon/stalker. You couldn't defend your vikings with tanks because carriers are far more mobile. Just making more turrets isn't an answer either because he can just run zlots into them and your tanks will kill them. I don't consider mass tank viable tvp, which is why so many terrans think mech can't work: they're just massing tanks.
Just want to say, in the recent and still going IEM, they have already released replay packs. There are some TvT mech and TvZ mechby Mvp. No TvP mech so far im afraid.
On August 17 2012 10:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: I mean units that aren't tanks and vikings. You just sat on 35 tanks and did nothing. If he went carrier you'd lose an expo or two and a fair amount of tanks before you pumped vikings out, then he'd laugh and storm them and/or kill with archon/stalker. You couldn't defend your vikings with tanks because carriers are far more mobile. Just making more turrets isn't an answer either because he can just run zlots into them and your tanks will kill them. I don't consider mass tank viable tvp, which is why so many terrans think mech can't work: they're just massing tanks.
I've been going tank/hellion for the past couple of days or so and I've been winning most of my games (usually losing to all ins early on if I fuck up). I like that style because unless they go carriers I can usually get away with splitting the map like that, the only problem I have is when it comes to actually pushing in. Carriers for some reason don't actually seem to much of a problem as since I don't need to mule as much I can get a way with scanning more often to make sure he's not switching in to carriers. When he does I just try and go for thors/vikings after sacking as much supply as I can, but I don't really like giving up my high tank count as that's what keeps me alive from his large amounts of warp ins I've found.
What units would you suggest throwing in instead then?
Obviously I suggest playing the way I do. I use my style because I believe it's the best way to play. If there was something better, I'd switch to it. Feel free to keep doing what you're doing, but I believe it'll hold you back eventually. I don't know how seriously you take starcraft, so for all I know you'll never hit that point and don't need to worry about it at all. For example though, by 30-40 minutes in when all you have is a gigantic tank line that can't do anything, I'm maxed with a healthy bc and ghost count that allows me to start whittling away at protoss and probing for mistakes to end the game by.
On August 18 2012 02:04 Nightmarjoo wrote: Obviously I suggest playing the way I do. I use my style because I believe it's the best way to play. If there was something better, I'd switch to it. Feel free to keep doing what you're doing, but I believe it'll hold you back eventually. I don't know how seriously you take starcraft, so for all I know you'll never hit that point and don't need to worry about it at all. For example though, by 30-40 minutes in when all you have is a gigantic tank line that can't do anything, I'm maxed with a healthy bc and ghost count that allows me to start whittling away at protoss and probing for mistakes to end the game by.
Have you got any of your replays from recent games that go that long? I'd really like to see how/when you transition into BC and I'll admit that game I linked I usually get ghosts but after 1 I kind of forgot about it as I'm playing around with my production hotkeys atm. x_x
Oh sorry I'm an idiot, I didn't realise you'd posted any replays as they wasn't in the first post, sorry about inconveniencing you, I'll go back and check to get the rest. ^^
On Shakuras against Zerg and Protoss which third should I actually be taking? If I take the "pocket" third just by the middle I always find myself unable to actually push in and split the map so I trap myself on 3 base for ages, but if I take the other third I find myself needing to wall everything to stop runbys. Is there any optimal place I should expand to on that map? I had it vetoed since I got bored of it, but after I realised how hard Antiga was to mech on against protoss (if they take the center quickly) so I had to swap over.
TvT on Shakuras is easy since you can take the center with like 3 tanks early and then reinforce, other matchups... not so much. :p
On August 18 2012 06:19 Qikz wrote: On Shakuras against Zerg and Protoss which third should I actually be taking? If I take the "pocket" third just by the middle I always find myself unable to actually push in and split the map so I trap myself on 3 base for ages, but if I take the other third I find myself needing to wall everything to stop runbys. Is there any optimal place I should expand to on that map? I had it vetoed since I got bored of it, but after I realised how hard Antiga was to mech on against protoss (if they take the center quickly) so I had to swap over.
TvT on Shakuras is easy since you can take the center with like 3 tanks early and then reinforce, other matchups... not so much. :p
Against Zerg I think you should always take the "pocket" Third. You can cover it with Tanks from the Highground, it cuts off a huge area of your main from any air tactics. It's a shorter reinforce distance. I don't think there is any question it's the better position. I suggest taking your 4th as a Planetary in the base next to the 'pocket' expansion blocked off by rocks. It cuts off your Main entirely from air threats, and it gives you a really strong position against his 4th base, really strong with Banshees (as any good Meching Terran has!) and even gives you the chance to use Thor drops lol. Now of course when Brood Lords come out, if he wants to, he will probably get that base by positioning them over that cliff. You can't really engage in that choke unless you have a very dominant air force, which is rare if the Zerg goes Brood Lord first.
But it's not a big deal to lose that base by then, the second he positions his Brood Lords over there, just position your Army to gain control of the Towers and the middle of the map, deny any bases past the natural 4 and lift your extra orbitals to take the far away 3rd and 4th because now you want to be fighting in the open and he has the slow army. Also, you usually have the big enough bank of minerals at that point to make a huge wall of turrets on the high ground of the 4th base.
For Protoss, it's a hard decision. I always take the pocket third because I find it actually just impossible to defend the other third against Blink Stalkers, Warp Prism harass, Storm drops, and all that annoying stuff. I usually take that as a 4th base with Planetary Fortess and Siege Tanks to defend from Blink Stalkers and what not, and I have the minerals to wall and such. Though sometimes I will take the 4th I do in TvZ, it really depends on the composition the Protoss has decided upon at that point.
Thanks for the tips man, I didn't even realise tanks could cover the base from zerglings with their range but suprisingly they can :o
I also want to thank Nightmar for telling me to go to battlecruisers quicker. It's certainly awesome and they really do add a decent amount of DPS as long as the guy (even zerg) doesn't have mass void rays (not going to happen) or mass corrupter which when I actually get them doesn't seem to be a problem as they always overmake broodlords. God I love battlecruisers. I've never used them properly before as the general transition for me was to go battlecruisers into die. Kind of like Day9's transition of transitioning into losing my whole fucking base.
Also watching Supernova play mech on Daybreak fixed a problem for me as I never really thought of putting a planetary on that back third, but it really helps! I kind of undervalued Planetaries worrying about Mules, but as a meching player it doesn't seem to really matter since all the minerals do is bank up and it's much better to have the gas than none.
i'm just wondering about a tvp game i recently played and i wonder if anyone can give me some pointers to make the unit comp i had better to use. In the early-mid game i went more for a bio-mech play then late game i went for a more heavy hellion/thor/b.c play and i wonder if there's anything i can do to make that mech comp more deadly so i can use it more on ladder. I know there's been a few times to win the game and i know i should have done more harassment with my hellions or used my banshees more. i opened 3 rax f.e to deal with any 4-gate/3 gate robo play, if there's a better way to open not using 1/1/1 that can allow me to f.e while have a nice army to deal with cheese or b.s please let me know.
Blackknight your build is inefficient. I can't get behind biomech in general, but even as a bio opening it had much to be wanting. If you're interested in mech I highly recommend checking out some of the tvp reps I've posted in this thread and trying my builds.
Here is my attempt at the LG-IMMvP's mech timing from the IEM, got roach rushed but held it off.. early roach play seems strong against this delayed tank/thor cause your banshees have to come home to defend .. Anything I missed?
On August 20 2012 08:59 ConstantSc wrote: Here is my attempt at the LG-IMMvP's mech timing from the IEM, got roach rushed but held it off.. early roach play seems strong against this delayed tank/thor cause your banshees have to come home to defend .. Anything I missed?
Obviously I am not MVP so the timings are not spot on... but the idea is there
Once MVP loses the early map control from the Banshee Hellion he returns Banshees to the attack path Roaches would take, until ~3 Tanks are out with Seige. Also, always pull SCV's against Roaches.
On August 18 2012 03:11 Nightmarjoo wrote: Blame kollin! Taking too long to update things!
Sorry been on holiday for ten days XD. Generally if your releasing a lot of replays I'd like them to be in one pack, so just post it here because I'm too lazy to look through 100 posts.
All the replays I've posted in this thread so far.
If drop.sc ever becomes fully operational again you can use the single link to the drop.sc page sorted for only replays of me: http://drop.sc/players/US/542163/SCSLyra
I actually have my own question. In TvZ, what do you want to be sacrificing to free up space for Viking/Raven? Usually I only have 3 or 4 tanks and that isn't enough to get a sizeable army of Viking/Raven. So should I be looking to sacrifice Hellions, or should I try and get up enough orbitals so that I can be saccing SCV's?
HOLY SUPER EDIT: Woooo I found a rep pack of MVP's IEM run!!!!! You gaize have fun studying it (I know I will :DDD)
Both, sac hellions since they're food inefficient tanking-wise vs Thors, which also have 1 more armor, and because lategame, when you have a big army, mass zergling/bling isn't much of a threat anymore, and making orbitals with all the minerals you save from not making hellions. So with the hellions, keep trying to sac them to kill drones/larvae lategame, scout for new expansions, force spines, scout his army movement, etc.
On August 21 2012 23:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Both, sac hellions since they're food inefficient tanking-wise vs Thors, which also have 1 more armor, and because lategame, when you have a big army, mass zergling/bling isn't much of a threat anymore, and making orbitals with all the minerals you save from not making hellions. So with the hellions, keep trying to sac them to kill drones/larvae lategame, scout for new expansions, force spines, scout his army movement, etc.
Edit: mvp replays? yay :D
OK thanks. I have another question. When I push into the zerg with my big deathball, he usually has one of his own and a big wall of spinecrawlers. Especially on maps like Shakuras Plateau, how do I deal with that, or do I have to wait for him to attack into me?
Eugh, I've no idea why but today I had the best TvT I've ever played and by far the worst TvP and TvZ.
I'm forgetting upgrades left right and center and it's costing me games. The TvT though was awesome. I opened with 2 fact 1 techlab hellions to get blue flame relatively quickly and used them to control the map while I expanded and got my tanks set up. I found using the hellions makes me play faster and I get a lot of benefits from trying to keep some units active at all times. I won eventually with a massive tank push down to his fourth then fifth.
On August 21 2012 23:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Both, sac hellions since they're food inefficient tanking-wise vs Thors, which also have 1 more armor, and because lategame, when you have a big army, mass zergling/bling isn't much of a threat anymore, and making orbitals with all the minerals you save from not making hellions. So with the hellions, keep trying to sac them to kill drones/larvae lategame, scout for new expansions, force spines, scout his army movement, etc.
Edit: mvp replays? yay :D
OK thanks. I have another question. When I push into the zerg with my big deathball, he usually has one of his own and a big wall of spinecrawlers. Especially on maps like Shakuras Plateau, how do I deal with that, or do I have to wait for him to attack into me?
Don't think there is an absolutely specific/best way to deal with it, but you should definitely look for an opening, and not just for that area. You should see if you can attack his other expansions, to spread him thin. His BLs are very very slow, so your army is actually more mobile in many ways. If you can see an expansion you can siege (which will help cut off his reinforcements, as zerg it is SO frustrating to try to gather reinforcements when you're sitting between or at his base(s), because the only way to get around it is to separate the rally points for each hatchery, but then there's no good way of selecting the units at all those hatcheries quickly without being rallied to 1 spot), then do so. Maybe just 2-4 tanks, 1-2 thors, a couple hellions, even less, you really don't need much. This will force him to not be too air heavy, otherwise he won't have enough roaches to deal with those attacks.
If you want to attack, just scan ahead and once you know where is army is, leap forward slowly. You don't have to reposition every part of your army over and over too much though. You just need to have 1-2 tanks move forward and siege, then move the rest of your army, as long as he isn't real close or has a high roach count or has a lot of creep still, etc. The only real thing you need to worry about is having your vikings split so he can't fungal them all, having vision ahead (can do that with vikings and scan already, so that's already done), and not having half your army being NP'd. The 1-2 tanks will pretty much shoot down all the infestors that try to do that.
If he's attacking into you and engaging with the BLs, then you want to make sure you don't have too many tanks sieged up, again you only need 1-2 usually to protect your army from being NP'd. If he tries to go for it anyways, then you can siege more tanks without being caught, then just unsiege when he backs off.
Another thing to keep in mind of is that having a good roach count in his army can make your positioning/engage much harder in some ways. If he has a lot of roaches instead of almost all infestor/BL/corruptor, you need to worry about 1 more thing: him attacking into you when you don't many many tanks sieged up. So this is a downside to having only 1-2 sieged up instead of all your tanks, so if you see a high roach count, be careful, and you might want to siege up more tanks, but of course you're on a timer then unless you're ok with splashing your own army over and over. This is also why it's important to pressure his other bases, because even if he has a lot of roaches and can deal with the pressure, it will still make engaging his main ball much easier since there's less chance of having a bad engage due to zerg moving in with his roach/infestor before you sieged up enough tanks in time to not die.
Random question, on maps like Entombed, how the hell are you supposed to push at a protoss? On Shakuras it's not too bad as they can't warp in around every single side of you and crush your army, but on Entombed I find it hard to do anything bar turtle up on my bases until I either die or he runs out of juice.
On August 22 2012 10:14 Qikz wrote: Random question, on maps like Entombed, how the hell are you supposed to push at a protoss? On Shakuras it's not too bad as they can't warp in around every single side of you and crush your army, but on Entombed I find it hard to do anything bar turtle up on my bases until I either die or he runs out of juice.
I find that map pretty hard to mech on, I've banned it lol ;O when i used to not have that map unbanned (cus bans were used for worse maps at the time :D) my games usually ended up being turtlefests on 4 ish base but it got hard to stretch to the other side to split the map, there's so many different places to defend. But if anyone has success on this map please share your strategies or advice :D
On August 22 2012 10:14 Qikz wrote: Random question, on maps like Entombed, how the hell are you supposed to push at a protoss? On Shakuras it's not too bad as they can't warp in around every single side of you and crush your army, but on Entombed I find it hard to do anything bar turtle up on my bases until I either die or he runs out of juice.
i like to throw out random p.f on my side of the map(just make sure u got the spare minerals to do it.. if they try to attack you and you got one of those suckers up you can see it coming and counter properly. Here's the rep of me doing it on that map.http://drop.sc/242066.
i am just wondering if my build vs zerg is viable. The basics of it are: gas first > fast BFH > expand at 5:20 > a few banshees into a banshee thor hellion style (more tanks if he goes roaches)
I have won a few games, but i guess i just played better than other guy.. in an even match i'm not sure this build is too good vs zerg (it works vs terran).
Is the expand too late? i feel like i have to do a lot of damage or i just get rolled.
Also I've been struggling with mutas alot. Should i get an ebay and put turrets up by ten minutes, or just go for an armory and build thors? i can't afford both.
I think it's a little risky, as you can't guarantee to do any damage. Maybe you could try getting a port up asap after cc for a hellion drop before banshee. When I get rockdarim tvz I usually open gas first reactor hellion banshee and even a huge choke and a relatively high hellion count I can't always do damage before the banshees are out.
Do the hellions really have to do damage though? I thought the main benefit of the hellions were map control early on forcing them into either roaches or mutas so they can move out properly. Also, is Tal'darim actually any good for mech? I've had it vetod for ages as I always presumed it'd be awful due to the openness of it, but if you're playing it then it surely can't be too bad.
I vetoed antiga purely because of TvP too as it's seemingly impossible to take a fourth base,
On August 23 2012 17:40 dynwar7 wrote: Hey mechers, would anyone be able to share the replays of their tvt mech vs bio where you lose? I just intend on studying those replays.
Night, those rep packs, have you got any where you lose against bio?
Thank you
I'd be able to get you loads but I think I deleted most of them as I usually lost by losing my main to a mass runby :/
On August 23 2012 17:40 dynwar7 wrote: Hey mechers, would anyone be able to share the replays of their tvt mech vs bio where you lose? I just intend on studying those replays.
Night, those rep packs, have you got any where you lose against bio?
Thank you
I'd be able to get you loads but I think I deleted most of them as I usually lost by losing my main to a mass runby :/
Well, if you think the bio player is decent and outplayed the mech (you) then I would love to see them, so I can learna thing or two of mech losing to bio
When you look at a replay all you see is shit happening. Often it's not clear how either player intended or expected the game to turn out. You miss the thought process behind the actions. You miss what mistakes were made that required adaptations, or what the opponent did that was unexpected that forced adaptations, etc. Sometimes it isn't even clear what was deliberate, what was a pure accident, what was a complete mess of mistakes, etc.
So here is a full recap of a game from my most recent reppack. It's vs xLsThunder, 1700 point masters protoss. I've played vs him in the past before and he'd always cheesed, so I entered the game with that in mind. I don't think I'd meched vs him before however. http://drop.sc/239792
Opening is normal 12rax 13gas 17 oc (16 scv and 1 marine). Second depot is asap without cutting anything. He didn't save chrono at all, and his 2nd gas was fairly normally timed. I wasn't looking too closely at his build because rather than assuming FE and looking for signs of cheese I was expecting cheese and looking for signs of FE. Had I wanted to look closer I'd have stuck around until he started mining his 2nd gas to see how many probes he used in each, and I might've also looked for 3rd pylon (which is conspicuously missing from his main). The second gas and no zlot already pointed towards cheese though, confirming my suspicions. The second gas timing tells me it can't be super fast dt (I've encountered dt at my base at 5:48 before).
I scout with my marines behind my nat, 3rd, and 4th, all good proxy locations. I don't bother searching my main because his probe never vanished inside it. Note that I actually sent a marine to my 5th where he ended up proxying as well, but it got distracted chasing his probe and I sent it to the 4th and then home instead. It's ok though, because my hellion finds it anyway. Note my hellion rechecking some spots my marines checked earlier. Some aggression may have a relatively late proxy pylon and nothing else.
Since he didn't save chrono (can't fast 4gate), since he's likely not expoing (prompting cc), and since his 2nd gas wasn't super fast (requiring fast ebay) I do my normal thor expand build with thor before cc. Missing depot at 35 forces me to cut scv production to get thor out asap (mistake) while still making marines (which are necessary for shooting ground units since thor will be shooting voidray). So I'm 2-3 workers behind where I ought to be at this point.
Notice I wasn't even sure if he was going to be aggressive since he was taking so long. I figured he may have decided to just expo with me having scouted his build. Notice that in spite of this I stayed on top of my ramp, scouted with only a single marine, and didn't unload the ramp bunker while making the nat bunker. I also made a cc before second thor, but I might have done this even if he was being aggressive. If you have to delay your cc as much as he's delaying his nexus you have no semblance of an advantage, so if you can barely stay alive with a cc you should do that rather than get a very late cc and crush his aggression. Especially since he still has more workers than me (due to my mistake earlier and to him over-making probes) having a cc same time as his nexus would set me behind. Since there's no way to gain map control at this point I might as well have a faster cc.
Notice also how easily I'm holding his aggression despite pointlessly losing my only bunker (due to an inefficient scv pull/repair). Thors are pretty good, which is why thor expand (or armory cc thor) is my standard. I pulled scvs off gas during the aggression since I had enough gas to make thors. If I'd pulled sooner I could've kept 2 on each gas (for about 80% gas income) instead of going to 1 on each. After the aggression ends he has a worker lead due to poor macro on my part. Even so, constant scv production with 2 ccs exceeds constantly chrono'd probe production (possible if he saved chrono during the attack).
First thing I do when I move to my nat is make a bunker, and next thing is make a turret. Cheesy protoss love relying on dts, and the turret protects you from obs scouting your nat as well. The threat of dt is always a possibility throughout the game so that turret is never a loss. Don't think that just because he just used a gas-heavy aggressive build that he won't go dt immediately.
Since he wasn't being aggressive with robo tech I'm getting siege and tanks after 3rd thor instead of a 4th thor and strike cannons.
It's usually safe to get a quick 3rd cc after defending aggression, but I suspect I didn't get it due to having a relatively low scv count. Notice I take my 3rd right after he shows me dts. That may sound counter-intuitive, but if I know he just spent a lot of money on additional tech he can't possibly also be aggressive with an army. Furthermore I welcome him to make more dts, as they're a huge waste of money for him at this point. Worst case scenario I can cancel my 3rd and remake it in my main. That's 100 minerals lost for me and 125 minerals and 100 gas lost for him. Doesn't take a math PHD to figure out who would come out ahead there.
I typically favour slightly delayed ghost production in favour of waiting on moebius reactor first, but felt I should have the ghosts out asap since he was templar tech.
I start my 4th cc the moment my 3rd is up and running. I already have the tech, production buildings, and scv count (or good enough) necessary for 3base, so there's no point in delaying my 4th. What else would I make? Production buildings? I can't support increased production until I have my 4th base gas. I could make factories for hellions, but there's no push timing to make extra hellions for, and I couldn't possibly guarantee extra hellions to do damage exceeding their own value. It is however a mistake to not have been using my existing hellions to scout his expos and unit composition.
Late moebius reactor and cloak is a mistake though. +3 mech attack could've been faster as well.
I take my 5th right after my 4th. The limitations on my production are time and gas, not minerals. If I can't hold my 5th then so be it, I'll take it later. His army composition mostly consists of immortals, which aren't particularly scary by themselves. Heavy archon/immortal can be, but that's nothing a little turtling and some extra tank/banshee/ghost can't hold. Colossi might be scary enough to delay my 5th, but not scary enough to pose any real threat to me. He can't attack into a good sieged position with them, and eventually I'll have the banshee/bc number required to negate his colos altogether.
By 25:00 he has a high archon/immortal count, but that's too late for any push. I have a high enough ghost and tank count to thwart that.
His first major push is a huge bunk because I emp'd the mothership. Sniping my pf was useless since I had another cc to replace it immediately. What this did though was to unmax me, so my money is replacing units to remax rather than remaxing stronger. Had he not attacked I soon would have been able to suicide SCVs, nearing an acceptable oc count.
At 29:30 I looked to want to push, but wisely backed off. My upgrades weren't complete, I wasn't maxed, and I didn't have excess production capacity. Only if those prerequisites are met in addition to the opponent being vulnerable should you actually attack protoss with mech. What harm can waiting cause? His upgrades are already done, so his army isn't getting any stronger. He just blew his entire army while simultaneously having two of his expansions nuked. He's in no shape to make a good army for a long time. He has to invest his money into garbage units just to survive whether I actually attack or not. Even if he comes up with the money and time to make good units later his max will still be heavily diluted with useless supply.
Instead I use my map control to expand, to consolidate my advantage.
When he attacks me next it's again to his utter disadvantage. I lose nothing of importance (I was not in dire need of that expansion, so losing it in exchange for his army is a great trade), and again use the distraction of the fight to nuke another expansion. So he loses the fight and more probes. The reason why despite my prior advantage I wasn't able to engage his army here and just kill him is that my battlecruiser count was still low. The reason why it was low is that I had been spending money on replacing units lost earlier, which also delayed my extra oc production which altogether left me with less money to spend on bcs. Bcs are not a requirement, they're a luxury. You can win endgame tvp with mech without bcs. The only time you truly need bcs are when he has a high carrier count (and even then turret/thor/ghost/raven can hold its own vs that while you make bcs).
Notice me making sure to emp his mothership since the opportunity presented itself. Always keep its energy down if you can. You can't always be aware of its position.
His zlot harass is annoying (and easily prevented by just raising the depot wall on my nat choke), but destroys only addons and weak units. His next attack is again to his own great disadvantage. He fails to destroy the new expansion attempt. He kills the tanks, which is only regrettable due to the inefficiency of their trade (with more units present the tanks would've given him more hell before being destroyed), but losing them in and of itself is no blow by this point in the game. Tanks by this point are only useful in thwarting stalker harass, which is at worst annoying, not a real threat. He loses his archons and mothership, his good units. The colos are completely useless at this point. The aftermath is that I have a bc count he cannot possibly contest for the rest of the game. Again there's no point in attacking now because I can be stronger, and he can't.
Mining my earlier bases instead of the newer ones with my remaining scvs is a mistake. It's better to use them on newer bases, using the old ones as emergency backup instead.
My armour upgrades are a little slow this game, but that's not a big deal since I never really had a huge money bank. My money was always going into worthwhile good things instead. Omitting turret/pf range is a mistake though.
This game may have appeared a little close since I never obtained a perfect max and a huge money bank, but neither of those are requirements for winning tvp with mech. My opponent threw large armies at me to his own detriment, but it still slowed me down.
Now many people try to make this mech style look illegitimate or unviable. They point to the mistakes made by protoss as if that's evidence supporting their claim. This protoss certainly made mistakes, but how would the game have differed if he hadn't? He made a very good army for dealing with conventional ground mech and threw it at me before I could perfect my max. In that sense it was a decent timing for his first attack. Obviously he needed carriers to fight my bcs, but the only way he can make them is by unmaxing in some way. My unit composition, tactics, and level of defense prevent him from possibly unmaxing efficiently.
That means no matter what he's going to have to suicide some of his units to make carriers. Trying to make carriers on a weak army is going to make him vulnerable to harass and give me map control with which I'll expo on. He'll have carriers, but without enough money to fight me. As I said earlier turret/thor/raven/ghost can hold its own vs carriers, and tank/pf protects that from any ground support. With a lot of money I can make a lot of bcs. As long as I'm on top of emping his mothership his army should never be able to beat mine.
Suiciding units to make carriers will always give me an opportunity to push forward a bit to secure more expansions and distract his army to open up harass windows.
So in conclusion outside of the opening this game was fairly typical, if not ideal. What I suggest getting out of this game is to look at how effective not suiciding my army was. Look at how much damage his un-ideal army was able to do to mine in scenarios where he chose the engagement against me at well-defended locations. If I had tried to attack after gaining an advantage I easily could have thrown away my lead by having battles where I don't have the best possibly army in the best possible location.
Feel free to ask questions about this or any other game I've played.
Thanks for that massive post, I've been watching your replays and as you said it's kind of hard to understand why you're doing things and when you're doing things. Just about to watch that replay with my newly gained knowledge to extract as much info as I can out of your build. :D
Might be the timing of it all, most europeans are in bed and I don't think there's many americans other than you that post here is there?
I'd love to read one for TvZ but for me personally I don't think I need one for TvT as it plays a lot like mech did in SC1 (well at least my games anyway, I even open BFH like you'd open vultures in BW :D)
It's been almost 24 hours since I posted, they've had time to read it ._>
But ok, I'll try to find a good tvz to analyze.
I dunno why there aren't many americans in this thread. Seems like I get most of my stream viewers at odd times for me (which would be good for europeans). I guess most americans are zerg now eh?
On August 25 2012 09:39 Nightmarjoo wrote: It's been almost 24 hours since I posted, they've had time to read it ._>
But ok, I'll try to find a good tvz to analyze.
I dunno why there aren't many americans in this thread. Seems like I get most of my stream viewers at odd times for me (which would be good for europeans). I guess most americans are zerg now eh?
Woops didn't notice the time you posted it.
I'm not sure about the Americans thing, maybe it's because either the people who Mech on the American server don't post, or maybe not many people do it for some unknown reason. I know in TvT I come across quite a lot of other meching Terrans.
Nightmare sorry i've not been on this thread in the last day or so i've had friends round my house (non starcraft ones lolol). That is an awesome post i'm about to download your replay and watch. To be honest i think a TvZ one would be far more useful to me
On August 25 2012 07:43 Nightmarjoo wrote: Should I do similar writeups for tvt and tvz? Not sure if the lack of feedback following it implies a lack of interest or just the post's length.
Personally for me it was the post length. I didn't get around to it until now.
I think you got a bit too specific. Why don't you try writing a more generalized guide? Its tough to learn much from a single replay, its much better to blow thru 3-4 games detailing the different paths that the opening takes. I'd be interested to hear more about your variation of the Thor expand. I do think Thor is good at holding one base pushes. And I think its pretty easy to figure out how to win on 5+ bases (just don't attack and defend super cost effectively with minimal rally time). It is the middle 2-4 base aggression that is the difficult part of Ghostmech for me.
I see. I figured being specific would be the most helpful. Being general would just be doing a low-level cast-job of the game, which you can see for yourself just by watching it. I will be writing up guides for both the style and my specific build in the future, but for now I'll stick with simple game recaps and analyses. When I wrote that recap I kept in mind my experiences from other games to point out how it was similar or different from the model. That wouldn't really change just by looking at a few different games.
If I wrote it any shorter it would be missing content though.
As long as at least a single person finds this stuff interesting I'll keep writing them. Sounds like a tvz post is in order. The tvps are more fun though~
I think the TvP write up was really good and would love to see a TvZ one. I have a question though. In the write up you said you knew your opponent didn't have a robo because he went void ray, therefore you could get tanks straight away. What would happen if you knew your opponent did have a robo?
I have a relatively random question regarding TvT. I should know this, but it's something I've never looked into.
When you're going into either battlecruisers or vikings after mech in TvT is it better to start with the armor upgrades first like BW or go for the attack first? I guess at that stage of the game it shouldn't really matter as you can get both, but is there one that's more beneficial?
On August 25 2012 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: I see. I figured being specific would be the most helpful. Being general would just be doing a low-level cast-job of the game, which you can see for yourself just by watching it. I will be writing up guides for both the style and my specific build in the future, but for now I'll stick with simple game recaps and analyses. When I wrote that recap I kept in mind my experiences from other games to point out how it was similar or different from the model. That wouldn't really change just by looking at a few different games.
If I wrote it any shorter it would be missing content though.
As long as at least a single person finds this stuff interesting I'll keep writing them. Sounds like a tvz post is in order. The tvps are more fun though~
Well, a good guide is more than low level play-by-play cast. It outlines the thought process and decision points across a wide variety of contingencies. But your previous post was just a flat-out memory dump of a single game. Which is interesting, but is difficult to learn from, because so many of the scenarios that happened in that game were unique to that game. What if the Protoss 4-gated instead? How about 2 base Zealot/Prism/Carrier (which is actually pretty good against mech)? 6 gate Immortal? Stargate openings? 3 Gate Blink? Double Forge? 3 Colossi push? Etc. That is more general knowledge that you need in order to really develop a new build.
On August 25 2012 22:33 Qikz wrote: I have a relatively random question regarding TvT. I should know this, but it's something I've never looked into.
When you're going into either battlecruisers or vikings after mech in TvT is it better to start with the armor upgrades first like BW or go for the attack first? I guess at that stage of the game it shouldn't really matter as you can get both, but is there one that's more beneficial?
In TvT go ship armor first. Unless it is pure Viking vs Viking, then go Attack first.
The only things that can kill Vikings and BCs are: Marines Turrets Thors BCs Ravens Vikings
Marines, Turrets, Thors, and BCs are all rapid-fire units, so its better to upgrade +1 armor and decrease 20 shots by 1 damage each, then it is to upgrade +1 attack and increase 10 shots by 1 damage. If you take a pack of 8 stimmed Marines and pit them against the BC, its obvious that the BC's armor upgrades are going to trigger more often than its attack upgrades.
Ravens are another consideration. PDD negates the effectiveness of attack upgrades, but armor ups will still function.
The exception is that if you are behind in a pure Viking vs Viking war, it can make sense to go attack first instead because Vikings are more of slow-fire unit. And +2 Ship Attack is a critical upgrade vs +0 armor Vikings. Its only when the opponent mixes in other units that can kill Vikings that armor becomes attractive for Vikings.
Thanks for the help yet again. I love this thread <3
EDIT: Eugh, threw away a completely won game. I had a 3-3 mech army against his 0-0 protoss army and I accidentally unsieged all my tanks and he killed them. God damn that felt bad.
EDIT Again: Why are mains in this game such annoying shapes? I just nearly lost a game by accidentally walling all my factories in with a single turret. I had my 6 BCs raining down on their army and was reinforcing with tanks to deal with the stalkers, but for some idiotic reason none of my tanks were getting to the front lines. Then I checked... god damnit! :p
Still went on to win, but I nearly threw that game too. Need to badly learn my base layout on Ohana, that's the worst for it in the top position.
What is in you opinion the safest way to get to BC/Raven composition in TvP?
I struggle a little bit to get the "best" opening for me. The overall goal should be to get the BC/Raven composition.
@ Night you say in one thread that it is the easiest match up to come to this composition and i watched some games of you and recognize you open a lot with thor expand but i think you don't have a good economy to support your follow up.
You get to bcs by staying alive and mining. If your opponent doesn't have a very strong army (they have a heavily gateway-diluted army instead, but aren't using blink to attack multiple locations), you can start bc production on 8tank 6thor. If they have a very heavy robo army consider delaying bc for more tanks and making banshees instead of bcs for a bit. If they're making carriers make bcs asap and then make more thors (and turrets). If they're using heavy blink harass while also pressuring with a separate colos-based army make tank/banshee/pf before bc.
Yes qikz the mains of every single map are all horrible.
On August 26 2012 23:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: What? What's wrong with my economy?
You get to bcs by staying alive and mining. If your opponent doesn't have a very strong army (they have a heavily gateway-diluted army instead, but aren't using blink to attack multiple locations), you can start bc production on 8tank 6thor. If they have a very heavy robo army consider delaying bc for more tanks and making banshees instead of bcs for a bit. If they're making carriers make bcs asap and then make more thors (and turrets). If they're using heavy blink harass while also pressuring with a separate colos-based army make tank/banshee/pf before bc.
Yes qikz the mains of every single map are all horrible.
i just found that you don't have a good economy with a thor expand and always get troubles with the follow up
I will explain my tries so far. I have to say that i don't like Tanks in TvP because the just overrun you with everything and remax instantly. I also have to say i'am just diamond.
--Openings---
1 Rax No Gas FE into 3 Fac Reactor into Thor+Hellion+Banshee 3 Fac Reactor Opening gets huge Trouble against Blink Stalker on 1 Base because they don't die and also get easily shutdown by any immortal aggression because stalker, immortal > hellions
Thor Expand or 1 Rax No Gas FE into "Fast Thor" A thor Expand is really nice and save but you don't have the economy to support your follow up in my opinion and if you go 1 rax expand before the expand the thor is way too late to help against everything.
I found the safest No Gas FE is followed by a fac with your first 100 Gas and asap Siege+Tank. You can also through down a eaby if you scout early 2 Gas.
---- Follow ups----
I also tried 1 Rax Fe into 5 Fac Tanks with Armor Upgrades but they just get crushed by max attacks with 3/3 at around 17 Min then instant remax and gg.
Thor+Hellion+Banshee out of a 1 Rax Expand into 3 Fac+2 Starports get destroyed by Templars. What do you think about this composition? I think i just need some ghosts but you can not afford this on 3 bases.
I already explained the process that lead to choosing this as my standard build. I don't find that my economy is weak, and I'm not sure why you perceive it as such. I'm not sure what you want me to be able to do that I'm not with my opening, as when I play I can do everything I need.
You can't 1rax cc into mech unless you absolutely know your opponent is going 1gate nex or nex first because there are all-ins you can't scout in time to adapt to stop. You can't 1rax cc into 3 or 4rax then into mech (to be safe vs those all-ins) because you don't have enough gas/time to get an adequate force to stop a 12 minute immortal all-in. If you mass marines/bunkers to hold it you've effectively nullified whatever advantage you garnered from fast expanding instead of doing a tech build. Thus you need to open with gas. Reactor expand is ok, but has no great means to scout, and is still sensitive to aggression. Cloaked banshee expand is good because you can get a hellion out to scout well, and the banshee allows you to clean up their aggression attempts and/or harass them, forcing them to make stalkers and extra obs, and/or cannons. The problem is that your cc is very late with this build, and it's still not super great vs aggression. Double expanding is not always possible, and just making a fast 3rd oc in-base heavily delays your gas. Thor expand gets the fact up early, and thus gets a fast hellion out to scout everything. If Protoss is being aggressive the thor holds everything except a fast 4gate, which is easy to scout, and you just get a tank before hellion vs saved chronos instead. If protoss expands you make cc before thor, and your thor lets you defend any fast aggression after nexus. This build is the best general build for tvp mech imo. It's the safest build, and allows a faster cc than most tech openings. It lacks aggression-potential, but that's irrelevant since your goal with tvp mech is to stay alive.
Why would you mass tanks and get armour upgrades? If you open 1rax cc and don't die you can hold anything later in game. Your only problem is if you try tank/hellion and he goes carrier. But you need attack upgrades, not armour. Armour doesn't do shit, especially for tanks.
Thor/tank/banshee/ghost is viable, but as you can see from my recent reps I've been shying away from port units until later in game. Templar shouldn't be a threat if you have tank/banshee/ghost, as all 3 units can easily snipe ht. Even if you don't make tanks you should be fine. If you're losing to big attacks by omitting tanks and ghost (why you would do that is beyond me) then you're not using your hellion/banshee well. I believe that composition is viable, but I don't recommend it.
You can support the constant production of 2tank (or 2thor), 1banshee, 1ghost on 3base. If you want 2port production you can afford this by cutting 1 thor or 1 tank from your production cycle. On 3fact that means you could have 1 techlab 2 reactors, and be very aggressive with your hellion/banshee while slowly building up your thor or tank and ghost count.
Obviously though I recommend my composition, which is tank/thor/ghost with light hellion into air.
I really haven't experimented much with making only thors (no tanks). I suspect it's viable though. I think that if you want to try it you should do the heavy banshee/hellion composition I just mentioned to keep protoss busy. If they sit and mass archon/immortal you could be in trouble without tanks. Strike cannons can only do so much. Obviously you need ghosts though, you can't skip them.
Your inability to hold attacks when relying on tanks suggests greater problems with your play than just composition though.
Can I get some advice on a replay of a game I just played? I know there's a few things I did wrong, but I'm really perplexed how I didn't just crush his army with what I had. I've been playing around with your thor/tank/hellion into air composition and I don't exactly know what I'm doing wrong but I seem to get crushed everytime, when it was tank hellion I seemed to do a much better job of surviving and nothings really changed minus having less tanks I guess.
I keep up with him in upgrades (although my +3 attack was late), I could probably do with more production facilities to get more hellions to dump my minerals but it was quite early on and I'd just taken my third (I think I may have taken that late too) so I had quite low gas.
Is there any tips you could give me to improve my play? I seem to be doing much better against zerg and Terran but struggling against protoss.
On August 27 2012 01:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: I already explained the process that lead to choosing this as my standard build. I don't find that my economy is weak, and I'm not sure why you perceive it as such. I'm not sure what you want me to be able to do that I'm not with my opening, as when I play I can do everything I need.
You can't 1rax cc into mech unless you absolutely know your opponent is going 1gate nex or nex first because there are all-ins you can't scout in time to adapt to stop. You can't 1rax cc into 3 or 4rax then into mech (to be safe vs those all-ins) because you don't have enough gas/time to get an adequate force to stop a 12 minute immortal all-in. If you mass marines/bunkers to hold it you've effectively nullified whatever advantage you garnered from fast expanding instead of doing a tech build. Thus you need to open with gas. Reactor expand is ok, but has no great means to scout, and is still sensitive to aggression. Cloaked banshee expand is good because you can get a hellion out to scout well, and the banshee allows you to clean up their aggression attempts and/or harass them, forcing them to make stalkers and extra obs, and/or cannons. The problem is that your cc is very late with this build, and it's still not super great vs aggression. Double expanding is not always possible, and just making a fast 3rd oc in-base heavily delays your gas. Thor expand gets the fact up early, and thus gets a fast hellion out to scout everything. If Protoss is being aggressive the thor holds everything except a fast 4gate, which is easy to scout, and you just get a tank before hellion vs saved chronos instead. If protoss expands you make cc before thor, and your thor lets you defend any fast aggression after nexus. This build is the best general build for tvp mech imo. It's the safest build, and allows a faster cc than most tech openings. It lacks aggression-potential, but that's irrelevant since your goal with tvp mech is to stay alive.
Why would you mass tanks and get armour upgrades? If you open 1rax cc and don't die you can hold anything later in game. Your only problem is if you try tank/hellion and he goes carrier. But you need attack upgrades, not armour. Armour doesn't do shit, especially for tanks.
Thor/tank/banshee/ghost is viable, but as you can see from my recent reps I've been shying away from port units until later in game. Templar shouldn't be a threat if you have tank/banshee/ghost, as all 3 units can easily snipe ht. Even if you don't make tanks you should be fine. If you're losing to big attacks by omitting tanks and ghost (why you would do that is beyond me) then you're not using your hellion/banshee well. I believe that composition is viable, but I don't recommend it.
You can support the constant production of 2tank (or 2thor), 1banshee, 1ghost on 3base. If you want 2port production you can afford this by cutting 1 thor or 1 tank from your production cycle. On 3fact that means you could have 1 techlab 2 reactors, and be very aggressive with your hellion/banshee while slowly building up your thor or tank and ghost count.
Obviously though I recommend my composition, which is tank/thor/ghost with light hellion into air.
I really haven't experimented much with making only thors (no tanks). I suspect it's viable though. I think that if you want to try it you should do the heavy banshee/hellion composition I just mentioned to keep protoss busy. If they sit and mass archon/immortal you could be in trouble without tanks. Strike cannons can only do so much. Obviously you need ghosts though, you can't skip them.
Your inability to hold attacks when relying on tanks suggests greater problems with your play than just composition though.
with a thor expand you only can afford 3 Fac compared to maybe TvZ where you can support 5 Fac+Starport mineralwise. Do you 1 Rax Expand followed by a fast siege tank? Until now i don't face any attack which i can not hold easily.
No the way i loose with 5 Fac tanks was against max 200 Attack i also at 200 Supply and hold it off. But then he warps in Mass Zealot+Archon and crush me.
Maybe 4Fac Tanks and 2 Rax Ghosts after the Expand? What do you think about "pure" Tank+Ghost and attack upgrades for mech? I tried a few games today and it seems solid to me. Did someone ever try this?
Qikz your build is bad. If you're under the impression you were using my build, you're mistaken. I don't know if that's what you're trying to do or not though. I wish you could get on NA, this conversation would be a lot easier.
If you tell me what you're trying to do I can be more helpful. Essentially almost everything I can suggest for you to improve on are just the ways that what you did was different from my build and play. If you aren't trying to do my build, explain what you're doing and why you're doing it and I can give feedback on that. If you are trying to do my build and can't see how your play differs from mine from the reps I've uploaded, I can give you a laundry list.
On August 27 2012 01:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: I already explained the process that lead to choosing this as my standard build. I don't find that my economy is weak, and I'm not sure why you perceive it as such. I'm not sure what you want me to be able to do that I'm not with my opening, as when I play I can do everything I need.
You can't 1rax cc into mech unless you absolutely know your opponent is going 1gate nex or nex first because there are all-ins you can't scout in time to adapt to stop. You can't 1rax cc into 3 or 4rax then into mech (to be safe vs those all-ins) because you don't have enough gas/time to get an adequate force to stop a 12 minute immortal all-in. If you mass marines/bunkers to hold it you've effectively nullified whatever advantage you garnered from fast expanding instead of doing a tech build. Thus you need to open with gas. Reactor expand is ok, but has no great means to scout, and is still sensitive to aggression. Cloaked banshee expand is good because you can get a hellion out to scout well, and the banshee allows you to clean up their aggression attempts and/or harass them, forcing them to make stalkers and extra obs, and/or cannons. The problem is that your cc is very late with this build, and it's still not super great vs aggression. Double expanding is not always possible, and just making a fast 3rd oc in-base heavily delays your gas. Thor expand gets the fact up early, and thus gets a fast hellion out to scout everything. If Protoss is being aggressive the thor holds everything except a fast 4gate, which is easy to scout, and you just get a tank before hellion vs saved chronos instead. If protoss expands you make cc before thor, and your thor lets you defend any fast aggression after nexus. This build is the best general build for tvp mech imo. It's the safest build, and allows a faster cc than most tech openings. It lacks aggression-potential, but that's irrelevant since your goal with tvp mech is to stay alive.
Why would you mass tanks and get armour upgrades? If you open 1rax cc and don't die you can hold anything later in game. Your only problem is if you try tank/hellion and he goes carrier. But you need attack upgrades, not armour. Armour doesn't do shit, especially for tanks.
Thor/tank/banshee/ghost is viable, but as you can see from my recent reps I've been shying away from port units until later in game. Templar shouldn't be a threat if you have tank/banshee/ghost, as all 3 units can easily snipe ht. Even if you don't make tanks you should be fine. If you're losing to big attacks by omitting tanks and ghost (why you would do that is beyond me) then you're not using your hellion/banshee well. I believe that composition is viable, but I don't recommend it.
You can support the constant production of 2tank (or 2thor), 1banshee, 1ghost on 3base. If you want 2port production you can afford this by cutting 1 thor or 1 tank from your production cycle. On 3fact that means you could have 1 techlab 2 reactors, and be very aggressive with your hellion/banshee while slowly building up your thor or tank and ghost count.
Obviously though I recommend my composition, which is tank/thor/ghost with light hellion into air.
I really haven't experimented much with making only thors (no tanks). I suspect it's viable though. I think that if you want to try it you should do the heavy banshee/hellion composition I just mentioned to keep protoss busy. If they sit and mass archon/immortal you could be in trouble without tanks. Strike cannons can only do so much. Obviously you need ghosts though, you can't skip them.
Your inability to hold attacks when relying on tanks suggests greater problems with your play than just composition though.
with a thor expand you only can afford 3 Fac compared to maybe TvZ where you can support 5 Fac+Starport mineralwise. Do you 1 Rax Expand followed by a fast siege tank? Until now i don't face any attack which i can not hold easily.
No the way i loose with 5 Fac tanks was against max 200 Attack i also at 200 Supply and hold it off. But then he warps in Mass Zealot+Archon and crush me.
Maybe 4Fac Tanks and 2 Rax Ghosts after the Expand? What do you think about "pure" Tank+Ghost and attack upgrades for mech? I tried a few games today and it seems solid to me. Did someone ever try this?
I can upload some replays if you want them.
I can mass factories if I want, I deliberately don't. I think tank/hellion is bad. Tank/ghost is worse than that even. I'm not sure what part of my style you don't understand: I've been pretty explicitly clear in my posts, especially the long one that was a recap of a game. I don't want a ton of useless units, I want to make the minimum number of mediocre units that keep me alive so that I can spend all of my money into economy, infrastructure, defense, and good units.
I'm not sure why you think mass fact play is good if you're losing with it. It has no lategame, so you either win in a single attack or you lose.
Explain to me how you're going to hold a 1gas 4gate warp prism with 1rax cc tank. Your scv scout is going to see no 2nd gas, and no surplus of nexus energy. If you can get a 2nd scout past his stalker you'll see a lack of nexus which informs you that you've lost. Then the drop is going to hit and you're going to lose. Explain to me how you're going to hold a blink all-in. You're going to scout 2gas, pray it's dt, make an ebay, and if your second scout finds his 2nd stalker you're going to realize you've lost, and then when the stalkers blink into your main you're going to lose.
On August 27 2012 05:49 Nightmarjoo wrote: Qikz your build is bad. If you're under the impression you were using my build, you're mistaken. I don't know if that's what you're trying to do or not though. I wish you could get on NA, this conversation would be a lot easier.
If you tell me what you're trying to do I can be more helpful. Essentially almost everything I can suggest for you to improve on are just the ways that what you did was different from my build and play. If you aren't trying to do my build, explain what you're doing and why you're doing it and I can give feedback on that. If you are trying to do my build and can't see how your play differs from mine from the reps I've uploaded, I can give you a laundry list.
Sorry I keep getting you and Lynna confused as your names in game are so similar. I guess I should probably go back and check through my replays to see where I'm going wrong in the opening stages. I was going off your info of the 8tank 6thor thing before you transition into air, but the main thing I was confused with was wondering what I exactly did wrong in that battle that lost me the game. I had what I thought was the favourable position, got the EMPs I think? but he still rolled straight through my army. I'm guessing it's something to do with positioning, but I'm not sure.
Anyways after MLG I'll go back through your replays so I can see where I'm differing from what you did (I thought I was doing the right thing, either I was doing the other guys build or I was just doing it completely wrong anyways, I kind of blagged it I think).
Once I've checked both the replays I'll post again with what I thought I was going for etc. etc.
@Night : Well, Tank/ghost is good . . once you have 20 of both with max uppgrades. I usually use it as my lategame when playing biomech ^^
Well, the problem about 1 rax CC tank also exists mosts open (including fast thors one). Actually most opening not relying on a reactor'd rax or a fast tank have a huge amount of problems with a lots of cheese because of the same thing : you'll not have enough marines and your tech ready in time, for example versus a gate/prism cheese, even some 1 base tech before CC (cloakshee, thors,etc) are going to die because it'll hit before big tech units are started
My thor expand gets a reactor on rax in addition to the thor, so that if my scv or hellion scout anything coming I can make marines and a thor, else I can just expand before making units.
Qikz 8tank 6thor is correct. You vastly overmade marines though, and then sacked your rax, so you had no ghosts for the first battle (at your 3rd). You also wasted your time/money on armour ups so that you didn't have +3 by the time that fight was happening. You added factories too soon (before 3rd cc) which hurt your gas income a lot. I stopped watching the rep after that first battle because you'd already made so many mistakes relative to my build. Obviously there are more viable ways to play tvp mech than just the style I use, but since I got the impression that you were at least influenced by my style if not mimicking it that the resulting scenario differed too greatly from what should happen had you not made what were imo mistakes, that continuing seemed a waste of time. Like I said, once I know whether the differences between your play and mine are stylistic differences or outright mistakes I can be more helpful.
Lyyna I think tank/ghost is bad because it's behind on anti-air and cannot ever safely unmax (shy of suiciding scvs) to get bcs (to fight carrier). So if your opponent goes carrier you're forced to either push asap and hope you can end the game (since you'll never be able to recover that supply) or suicide off scvs. If it's early enough that you still need those scvs to maintain oc constuction then you're really hurting your income just to stay alive.
On August 27 2012 01:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: I already explained the process that lead to choosing this as my standard build. I don't find that my economy is weak, and I'm not sure why you perceive it as such. I'm not sure what you want me to be able to do that I'm not with my opening, as when I play I can do everything I need.
You can't 1rax cc into mech unless you absolutely know your opponent is going 1gate nex or nex first because there are all-ins you can't scout in time to adapt to stop. You can't 1rax cc into 3 or 4rax then into mech (to be safe vs those all-ins) because you don't have enough gas/time to get an adequate force to stop a 12 minute immortal all-in. If you mass marines/bunkers to hold it you've effectively nullified whatever advantage you garnered from fast expanding instead of doing a tech build. Thus you need to open with gas. Reactor expand is ok, but has no great means to scout, and is still sensitive to aggression. Cloaked banshee expand is good because you can get a hellion out to scout well, and the banshee allows you to clean up their aggression attempts and/or harass them, forcing them to make stalkers and extra obs, and/or cannons. The problem is that your cc is very late with this build, and it's still not super great vs aggression. Double expanding is not always possible, and just making a fast 3rd oc in-base heavily delays your gas. Thor expand gets the fact up early, and thus gets a fast hellion out to scout everything. If Protoss is being aggressive the thor holds everything except a fast 4gate, which is easy to scout, and you just get a tank before hellion vs saved chronos instead. If protoss expands you make cc before thor, and your thor lets you defend any fast aggression after nexus. This build is the best general build for tvp mech imo. It's the safest build, and allows a faster cc than most tech openings. It lacks aggression-potential, but that's irrelevant since your goal with tvp mech is to stay alive.
Why would you mass tanks and get armour upgrades? If you open 1rax cc and don't die you can hold anything later in game. Your only problem is if you try tank/hellion and he goes carrier. But you need attack upgrades, not armour. Armour doesn't do shit, especially for tanks.
Thor/tank/banshee/ghost is viable, but as you can see from my recent reps I've been shying away from port units until later in game. Templar shouldn't be a threat if you have tank/banshee/ghost, as all 3 units can easily snipe ht. Even if you don't make tanks you should be fine. If you're losing to big attacks by omitting tanks and ghost (why you would do that is beyond me) then you're not using your hellion/banshee well. I believe that composition is viable, but I don't recommend it.
You can support the constant production of 2tank (or 2thor), 1banshee, 1ghost on 3base. If you want 2port production you can afford this by cutting 1 thor or 1 tank from your production cycle. On 3fact that means you could have 1 techlab 2 reactors, and be very aggressive with your hellion/banshee while slowly building up your thor or tank and ghost count.
Obviously though I recommend my composition, which is tank/thor/ghost with light hellion into air.
I really haven't experimented much with making only thors (no tanks). I suspect it's viable though. I think that if you want to try it you should do the heavy banshee/hellion composition I just mentioned to keep protoss busy. If they sit and mass archon/immortal you could be in trouble without tanks. Strike cannons can only do so much. Obviously you need ghosts though, you can't skip them.
Your inability to hold attacks when relying on tanks suggests greater problems with your play than just composition though.
with a thor expand you only can afford 3 Fac compared to maybe TvZ where you can support 5 Fac+Starport mineralwise. Do you 1 Rax Expand followed by a fast siege tank? Until now i don't face any attack which i can not hold easily.
No the way i loose with 5 Fac tanks was against max 200 Attack i also at 200 Supply and hold it off. But then he warps in Mass Zealot+Archon and crush me.
Maybe 4Fac Tanks and 2 Rax Ghosts after the Expand? What do you think about "pure" Tank+Ghost and attack upgrades for mech? I tried a few games today and it seems solid to me. Did someone ever try this?
I can upload some replays if you want them.
I can mass factories if I want, I deliberately don't. I think tank/hellion is bad. Tank/ghost is worse than that even. I'm not sure what part of my style you don't understand: I've been pretty explicitly clear in my posts, especially the long one that was a recap of a game. I don't want a ton of useless units, I want to make the minimum number of mediocre units that keep me alive so that I can spend all of my money into economy, infrastructure, defense, and good units.
I'm not sure why you think mass fact play is good if you're losing with it. It has no lategame, so you either win in a single attack or you lose.
Explain to me how you're going to hold a 1gas 4gate warp prism with 1rax cc tank. Your scv scout is going to see no 2nd gas, and no surplus of nexus energy. If you can get a 2nd scout past his stalker you'll see a lack of nexus which informs you that you've lost. Then the drop is going to hit and you're going to lose. Explain to me how you're going to hold a blink all-in. You're going to scout 2gas, pray it's dt, make an ebay, and if your second scout finds his 2nd stalker you're going to realize you've lost, and then when the stalkers blink into your main you're going to lose.
night maybe i have to say that i dont want to critique you or something else. I always watch your stream, vods etc. I just want to understand what exactly i should do because i try so many different styles and i get mostly crushed. I don't think that the reason for my losses are my mechanics because i beat Zerg and Terran pretty easy with mech. (dia-low/mid master) but i have huge problems against Protoss.
My overall goal against Protoss is the Raven/BC/Ghost composition. I think i will upload some replays maybe i do something totally wrong.
and thx for your help and really appreciate it maybe that what not so clear in my posts before because i'am really depressed with my TvP at the moment.
On August 27 2012 07:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: My thor expand gets a reactor on rax in addition to the thor, so that if my scv or hellion scout anything coming I can make marines and a thor, else I can just expand before making units.
Qikz 8tank 6thor is correct. You vastly overmade marines though, and then sacked your rax, so you had no ghosts for the first battle (at your 3rd). You also wasted your time/money on armour ups so that you didn't have +3 by the time that fight was happening. You added factories too soon (before 3rd cc) which hurt your gas income a lot. I stopped watching the rep after that first battle because you'd already made so many mistakes relative to my build. Obviously there are more viable ways to play tvp mech than just the style I use, but since I got the impression that you were at least influenced by my style if not mimicking it that the resulting scenario differed too greatly from what should happen had you not made what were imo mistakes, that continuing seemed a waste of time. Like I said, once I know whether the differences between your play and mine are stylistic differences or outright mistakes I can be more helpful.
Lyyna I think tank/ghost is bad because it's behind on anti-air and cannot ever safely unmax (shy of suiciding scvs) to get bcs (to fight carrier). So if your opponent goes carrier you're forced to either push asap and hope you can end the game (since you'll never be able to recover that supply) or suicide off scvs. If it's early enough that you still need those scvs to maintain oc constuction then you're really hurting your income just to stay alive.
Fair enough, I'm glad you pointed out that my build is totally wrong since maybe that's why I'm having so much trouble. I'm going to try and cater my mech build more to my style of tank/hellion/ghost while going up to BCs again since I seemed to win a lot more than I have done since switching into this odd build that I thought was right (but is clearly wrong) :p
Hopefully when I get some more games in after MLG if it doesn't end too late, or tommorow night I'll be able to upload a replay of me trying something else, then hopefully I'll be doing a better style for me. I'm not sure why I have such a big problem with thors, I just really hate them as a unit outside fighting clumped up vikings in TvT and mutas. They just seem so big and they die so fast, especially with feedback. I understand why they're used, but outside of the mistakes I already made I'm not really sure how they benefit my mech army all that much compared to more tanks/more hellions/more factories.
Either way I'll check out your style some more in replays and then try mine and see how they differ (my tank/hellion/ghost style which works pretty well for me) and hopefully we'll be able to see if we can get both styles to work, it'll be kind of nice if we can get various styles of mech to work in TvP ^^
Thanks for all your help in this thread by the way, same goes to everyone else. I wouldn't be able to mech at all in TvP (even if I'm losing) if it wasn't for you guys. ^^
Lyyna I think tank/ghost is bad because it's behind on anti-air and cannot ever safely unmax (shy of suiciding scvs) to get bcs (to fight carrier). So if your opponent goes carrier you're forced to either push asap and hope you can end the game (since you'll never be able to recover that supply) or suicide off scvs. If it's early enough that you still need those scvs to maintain oc constuction then you're really hurting your income just to stay alive.
Actually i use this as a follow-up to a biomech midgame, and a protoss is usually not trying to get carriers that early (compared to vs mech) versus a MMMGV/Tank army transitionning into a ghost/tank army (and you can also "just" add vikings and a few marines support and be fine). Of course i prefer my "standard" Mech air play, but biomech into ghostTank is kinda funny =)
about openings . . Well , the problem i have with yours is the same i had with my 111 expo before : it's safe. Too stupidly safe versus some things because of early reactor, but still unsafe versus some others, but you're basically sacrificing any hope to get a good economy, slowing you a lot when you're trying to get all your stuff ready (more fact, starports, starting uppgrades,etc) and it really hurts versus some things, especially versus really good players who are able to trick you into thinking they're allining or smth like that, making you play even more defensive. Thats personnally why i usually prefer to do a Tank/CC opening these days, better "combination" of safety and economy.
Lyyna I think tank/ghost is bad because it's behind on anti-air and cannot ever safely unmax (shy of suiciding scvs) to get bcs (to fight carrier). So if your opponent goes carrier you're forced to either push asap and hope you can end the game (since you'll never be able to recover that supply) or suicide off scvs. If it's early enough that you still need those scvs to maintain oc constuction then you're really hurting your income just to stay alive.
Actually i use this as a follow-up to a biomech midgame, and a protoss is usually not trying to get carriers that early (compared to vs mech) versus a MMMGV/Tank army transitionning into a ghost/tank army (and you can also "just" add vikings and a few marines support and be fine). Of course i prefer my "standard" Mech air play, but biomech into ghostTank is kinda funny =)
about openings . . Well , the problem i have with yours is the same i had with my 111 expo before : it's safe. Too stupidly safe versus some things because of early reactor, but still unsafe versus some others, but you're basically sacrificing any hope to get a good economy, slowing you a lot when you're trying to get all your stuff ready (more fact, starports, starting uppgrades,etc) and it really hurts versus some things, especially versus really good players who are able to trick you into thinking they're allining or smth like that, making you play even more defensive. Thats personnally why i usually prefer to do a Tank/CC opening these days, better "combination" of safety and economy.
Is your tank/cc opening basically a siege expand from Broodwar? If it is, have you got any newer replays you could upload? I've not been able to catch your stream for a while as I've been a bit busy.
Lyyna I think tank/ghost is bad because it's behind on anti-air and cannot ever safely unmax (shy of suiciding scvs) to get bcs (to fight carrier). So if your opponent goes carrier you're forced to either push asap and hope you can end the game (since you'll never be able to recover that supply) or suicide off scvs. If it's early enough that you still need those scvs to maintain oc constuction then you're really hurting your income just to stay alive.
Actually i use this as a follow-up to a biomech midgame, and a protoss is usually not trying to get carriers that early (compared to vs mech) versus a MMMGV/Tank army transitionning into a ghost/tank army (and you can also "just" add vikings and a few marines support and be fine). Of course i prefer my "standard" Mech air play, but biomech into ghostTank is kinda funny =)
about openings . . Well , the problem i have with yours is the same i had with my 111 expo before : it's safe. Too stupidly safe versus some things because of early reactor, but still unsafe versus some others, but you're basically sacrificing any hope to get a good economy, slowing you a lot when you're trying to get all your stuff ready (more fact, starports, starting uppgrades,etc) and it really hurts versus some things, especially versus really good players who are able to trick you into thinking they're allining or smth like that, making you play even more defensive. Thats personnally why i usually prefer to do a Tank/CC opening these days, better "combination" of safety and economy.
Is your tank/cc opening basically a siege expand from Broodwar? If it is, have you got any newer replays you could upload? I've not been able to catch your stream for a while as I've been a bit busy.
Actually it's the thorzain opening from the TSL3 (G5 vs MC, G1 vs Tyler). 12 rax 13 gas, get 4 marines out of rax , fact at 100 gas, get a tank, CC at 5 30
Lyyna I think tank/ghost is bad because it's behind on anti-air and cannot ever safely unmax (shy of suiciding scvs) to get bcs (to fight carrier). So if your opponent goes carrier you're forced to either push asap and hope you can end the game (since you'll never be able to recover that supply) or suicide off scvs. If it's early enough that you still need those scvs to maintain oc constuction then you're really hurting your income just to stay alive.
Actually i use this as a follow-up to a biomech midgame, and a protoss is usually not trying to get carriers that early (compared to vs mech) versus a MMMGV/Tank army transitionning into a ghost/tank army (and you can also "just" add vikings and a few marines support and be fine). Of course i prefer my "standard" Mech air play, but biomech into ghostTank is kinda funny =)
about openings . . Well , the problem i have with yours is the same i had with my 111 expo before : it's safe. Too stupidly safe versus some things because of early reactor, but still unsafe versus some others, but you're basically sacrificing any hope to get a good economy, slowing you a lot when you're trying to get all your stuff ready (more fact, starports, starting uppgrades,etc) and it really hurts versus some things, especially versus really good players who are able to trick you into thinking they're allining or smth like that, making you play even more defensive. Thats personnally why i usually prefer to do a Tank/CC opening these days, better "combination" of safety and economy.
yes that the point i mentioned above. A Thor Expand slows everything down a little bit in my opinion because you have like 10-15 SVC's more and 2nd mule with a No Gas FE and still be save with a asap Tank+Siege.
Lyyna in fact you think pure tank/ghost in viable after 1 rax expand? Maybe with 1-2 Thors before start to add more tanks and it helps to snipe Obs.
If you liked my style, why not spend more time with the build instead of just switching to something else?
If you guys upload reps I can check them out and point out what I think your problems are. If you like my style I strongly suggest looking at my reps and at the recap post where I explain the whys behind the what. Tvp is my best performing matchup at the moment, so I'm doing something right.
Having fewer scvs is irrelevant! I'm not massing marines, I don't need a lot of scvs! And 1rax cc gasgas is not safe! He said he likes that composition as a transition out of biomech. I recommend against trying it as a mech midgame composition.
On August 27 2012 07:31 Nightmarjoo wrote: If you liked my style, why not spend more time with the build instead of just switching to something else?
If you guys upload reps I can check them out and point out what I think your problems are. If you like my style I strongly suggest looking at my reps and at the recap post where I explain the whys behind the what. Tvp is my best performing matchup at the moment, so I'm doing something right.
i watched nearly every match on your stream i try to change it because it don't work for me and i have the same timings like you but it still doesn't work for me.
And the second aspect is that i normally don't like the mass tank style but i think i have to admit that this is the way to play. r, that's also the reason why i tried 3 Fac Reactor, Thor+Hellion+Banshee, Thor+Hellion, Tank+Hellion+Viking every possible composition in the book.
On August 27 2012 07:31 Nightmarjoo wrote: If you liked my style, why not spend more time with the build instead of just switching to something else?
If you guys upload reps I can check them out and point out what I think your problems are. If you like my style I strongly suggest looking at my reps and at the recap post where I explain the whys behind the what. Tvp is my best performing matchup at the moment, so I'm doing something right.
I was thinking about having a look at both, I'll take a look back at yours first though.
One question however, why do you actually use the thors in terms of your army composition? Do you use them for cannons or is there some other reason like their damage? It just seems really odd when I look at your replays it makes me feel that you could probably get away with using tanks and just adding more hellions.
It's your style so it just seems weird to me, but I'm not as good as you so I can understand why you probably think all my questions are odd. :p
Well if you post reps I can try to explain why it isn't working for you, and then maybe we can get it working for you. Everything I do is well-thought-out and thus easy to explain and be copied imo.
I'd describe my midgame composition as being tank/thor + hellion/ghost support, and the endgame is bc/ghost + w/e else.
Strike cannons are a bonus. I make them for their relative mobility, high hp, decent range, high dps, and most importantly anti-air capabilities. Thors are your carrier-buffer before bcs are out. Protoss can chrono carriers out at a much greater rate than you can make bcs, and you can't necessarily punish protoss when they spend all that time/money on carriers and upgrades.
after not gaming since season 2 i came back to ladder in June, ive gotten back into high masters using entirely mech builds against all races expect protoss, which i go bio mech in. Im thinking it might be best if you want to go Mech in toss to open with Bio first early Mech just seems to fragile.
So I've begun meching for the first time at a low-masters level in TVT. Having decent success with it, but how do you deal with drops? I usually lose bases to drops while my army is in an offensive position.
On August 28 2012 09:08 Indrium wrote: So I've begun meching for the first time at a low-masters level in TVT. Having decent success with it, but how do you deal with drops? I usually lose bases to drops while my army is in an offensive position.
Turret rings. Lots and lots of turrets.
Also it's usually nice to have planetaries on your bases and orbitals in your CC farms. Maybe leave one tank at each base too.
Failing that you could just use your hellions to speed back and kill drops.
On August 28 2012 08:41 Pookie Monster wrote: after not gaming since season 2 i came back to ladder in June, ive gotten back into high masters using entirely mech builds against all races expect protoss, which i go bio mech in. Im thinking it might be best if you want to go Mech in toss to open with Bio first early Mech just seems to fragile.
Have you looked at some of the replays in this thread? The reps I've uploaded contain a fair amount of tvps where I'm holding off early and/or midgame aggression. I don't find mech to be fragile vs protoss when used right.
On August 28 2012 18:39 Everlong wrote: Wow, imagine how good will be mech in HOTS. Like, seriously, fuck that ugly mechanical dog, Battle Hellion and Wodiw Mine will be awesome.. :D
The widow mine has every intention of being good, but as I said in mech chat yesterday it's entirely possible it won't be worth using.
If it costs more than 0.33 supply (3 per build, kind of like zerglings but more) and over 50 minerals and any gas at all it'll be awful. The spidermine was good mainly for the fact it slowed the enemy down and was free. If it costs stuff it's going to either have to be much harder to kill or do a load of damage or people won't use it.
On August 28 2012 18:39 Everlong wrote: Wow, imagine how good will be mech in HOTS. Like, seriously, fuck that ugly mechanical dog, Battle Hellion and Wodiw Mine will be awesome.. :D
The widow mine has every intention of being good, but as I said in mech chat yesterday it's entirely possible it won't be worth using.
If it costs more than 0.33 supply (3 per build, kind of like zerglings but more) and over 50 minerals and any gas at all it'll be awful. The spidermine was good mainly for the fact it slowed the enemy down and was free. If it costs stuff it's going to either have to be much harder to kill or do a load of damage or people won't use it.
That all is true, but it will be good for skipping starport + detection for opening mech, which is one of the biggest issues with mech.
On August 28 2012 18:39 Everlong wrote: Wow, imagine how good will be mech in HOTS. Like, seriously, fuck that ugly mechanical dog, Battle Hellion and Wodiw Mine will be awesome.. :D
The widow mine has every intention of being good, but as I said in mech chat yesterday it's entirely possible it won't be worth using.
If it costs more than 0.33 supply (3 per build, kind of like zerglings but more) and over 50 minerals and any gas at all it'll be awful. The spidermine was good mainly for the fact it slowed the enemy down and was free. If it costs stuff it's going to either have to be much harder to kill or do a load of damage or people won't use it.
That all is true, but it will be good for skipping starport + detection for opening mech, which is one of the biggest issues with mech.
On August 28 2012 18:39 Everlong wrote: Wow, imagine how good will be mech in HOTS. Like, seriously, fuck that ugly mechanical dog, Battle Hellion and Wodiw Mine will be awesome.. :D
Mech in HOTS is just going to be a metal MMM (Warhound is basically just an armoured marauder (so another garbage 1A unit), and well, the battle hellion feels like an AOE marine..). It doesn't look or feel like mech :/ and the mine . . well, requiring a cost/supply/factory prod time makes it terrible
So my problem with the style Bbyoung used is that I don't see how there could be any other end. Same problem byun had on whirlwind with his marine/tank. Tanks are less mobile than bw because they lack vult mine support, but with charge, blink, warp, colos-cliff-thing, etc, protoss is more mobile. Thus army-passive but harass-intense styles of mech are better. The problem with using heavy tank is that you invest a huge amount of supply that becomes absolutely useless after a certain point. You can't get rid of them efficiently to add in good units, so they're a waste of money as well as a waste of supply.
I do really like his bunker next to tank in main as opposed to in nat though. That's smart.
My problem with skyhigh's play vs last is that he was basically doing a 3base all-in. His 3rd was relatively late (which in and of itself might be ok), but I don't like how he had no 4th in sight. Furthermore he could only safely do his double armory before 2nd fact because he scouted last's double cc. The reason why he won imo is cuz last put a lot of money into ghosts, ghost ups, nukes, tanks, and tank ups. All of these diminished his bio army and prevented him from being able to go air. If last just mass expo'd/oc'd while skyhigh was being passive, sitting on double ups on 3base, and built up his own air force he could've just outmoneyed and overpowered skyhigh imo. Skyhigh's initial drop harass did almost nothing, and that was even against a double cc opening.
The game vs Soo was hillarious. Both players made a ton of mistakes. That thor timing attack shouldn't exist vs a good zerg. He fucking got double armory before facts before doing it too-- he could've had 4 thors at that time instead of 2. I like the part where Soo gets +1 melee and makes almost no lings. Hell I can win going all-in vs a progamer if he lets me get 13 drone kills for free with my first 4 hellions...
I have a question. Is it a good idea to mech on Ohana vs Protoss? I can't seem to secure a 4th, which means I can't transition to banshee tank ghost, then bc ghost. So, should I mech or go back to more standard play on that map?
On a weirdly long winning streak today by doing odd timing pushes rather than just turtling.
Siege expanding into tank/hellion is working for me with massive pushes on max supply at 2-2 and also I just won the most ridiculous game ever. He wouldn't attack up my ramp due to my tanks, I had 3 OCs in my main and I got 6 hellions, ran past his army and killed all his probes. I couldn't work out how I even held, but I guess when you're just adding tanks it's fine to turtle for a while while they're doing their all in as all it takes is to not die.
Same goes for blink all ins. If you just get turrets to stop the blink and turtle until it's safe to move to your natural on shakuras then it doesn't really matter about not mining your nat for a while as you get your 3rd OC anyway and just double expand once you hold off the blink.
On August 29 2012 07:16 Qikz wrote: On a weirdly long winning streak today by doing odd timing pushes rather than just turtling.
Siege expanding into tank/hellion is working for me with massive pushes on max supply at 2-2 and also I just won the most ridiculous game ever. He wouldn't attack up my ramp due to my tanks, I had 3 OCs in my main and I got 6 hellions, ran past his army and killed all his probes. I couldn't work out how I even held, but I guess when you're just adding tanks it's fine to turtle for a while while they're doing their all in as all it takes is to not die.
Same goes for blink all ins. If you just get turrets to stop the blink and turtle until it's safe to move to your natural on shakuras then it doesn't really matter about not mining your nat for a while as you get your 3rd OC anyway and just double expand once you hold off the blink.
I don't have good experience with turrets stopping blink allin. He just parks the observer so that he can snipe those turrets and then blinks in or bust your ramp because since you've been building turrets you don't have actually that much stuff. But I open with Thors. I guess you can rely on turrets if you have sieged tanks behind those.
I just held blink allin followed by warp prism zealots into mineral line while busting my ramp with good amout of gateway units and immortals. I only survived because I focus fired with thors + scv repair I think. Tanks just die too fast.
On August 29 2012 07:16 Qikz wrote: On a weirdly long winning streak today by doing odd timing pushes rather than just turtling.
Siege expanding into tank/hellion is working for me with massive pushes on max supply at 2-2 and also I just won the most ridiculous game ever. He wouldn't attack up my ramp due to my tanks, I had 3 OCs in my main and I got 6 hellions, ran past his army and killed all his probes. I couldn't work out how I even held, but I guess when you're just adding tanks it's fine to turtle for a while while they're doing their all in as all it takes is to not die.
Same goes for blink all ins. If you just get turrets to stop the blink and turtle until it's safe to move to your natural on shakuras then it doesn't really matter about not mining your nat for a while as you get your 3rd OC anyway and just double expand once you hold off the blink.
I don't have good experience with turrets stopping blink allin. He just parks the observer so that he can snipe those turrets and then blinks in or bust your ramp because since you've been building turrets you don't have actually that much stuff. But I open with Thors. I guess you can rely on turrets if you have sieged tanks behind those.
I just held blink allin followed by warp prism zealots into mineral line while busting my ramp with good amout of gateway units and immortals. I only survived because I focus fired with thors + scv repair I think. Tanks just die too fast.
Turrets work for me as I siege a tank just behind the turret to punish any kind of snipe. I mean he can move in to try and snipe the turret but he takes tank fire and I just repair.
Also all the time he takes trying to take the turrets out I'm building up a bigger tank count and adding on hellions with my 3rd CC on the way. They usually can't bust small ramps either as long as you have SCVs to repair the bunker and you keep a tank or two at your main ramp.
Usually if they go for a bust it means they've stopped making blink stalkers and tried to kill you with immortals/zealots by which case your defense is basically already secure with your tank count.
Wow, following the advice of Qikz, I started going siege expand into double cc, then hellion tank. The more immortal chargelot your opponent has, the more hellions you want to get. What are other peoples opinions on this, will it work when I get to a higher level?
The only reason I find seige expand works for me is that I've never been beaten by early agression and my build means I'm safe against the majority of cheese that protoss can send at me (DT's etc. etc.). I find it so safe that I don't really worry about scouting after the first SCV. From there I just scout for when he expands.
EDIT: As I say that I die to proxy void ray with 4 gate.
On September 01 2012 22:48 Qikz wrote: The only reason I find seige expand works for me is that I've never been beaten by early agression and my build means I'm safe against the majority of cheese that protoss can send at me (DT's etc. etc.). I find it so safe that I don't really worry about scouting after the first SCV. From there I just scout for when he expands.
EDIT: As I say that I die to proxy void ray with 4 gate.
Well damn that hit me hard.
That's the thing I was worrying about. It's the only situation where I think Thor expand would be better. I guess if I see double gas when I scout my opponent I should just switch my build to Thor expand as it's not a big deviation.
Quick question to Qikz (so many q's), could you give me any replays of your TvP mech style? I really want to analyse some specific stuff about,the build. You don't have to but I'd really appreciate it.
On September 02 2012 03:53 kollin wrote: Quick question to Qikz (so many q's), could you give me any replays of your TvP mech style? I really want to analyse some specific stuff about,the build. You don't have to but I'd really appreciate it.
The play isn't perfect as even I'm still trying to make this style work better for me. You'll notice my factory amount keeps changing via games depending on how much I fuck up/get right so I wouldn't take these as perfect, but against our level of toss this build can work pretty well unless I muck up with attacking in the wrong places or fuck up the opening.
I saved the one against voidrays, but when I went to upload it, the replay transformed into a TvZ so I have no idea how that happened.
On August 28 2012 08:41 Pookie Monster wrote: after not gaming since season 2 i came back to ladder in June, ive gotten back into high masters using entirely mech builds against all races expect protoss, which i go bio mech in. Im thinking it might be best if you want to go Mech in toss to open with Bio first early Mech just seems to fragile.
Have you looked at some of the replays in this thread? The reps I've uploaded contain a fair amount of tvps where I'm holding off early and/or midgame aggression. I don't find mech to be fragile vs protoss when used right.
I'll check out those proleague games tomorow.
i watched them, yes you gave me some new ideas thanks for the uploads
Just want to thank this thread for all the help I have had from reading here Been meching in TvZ and TvT and going to try TvP once again I still believe mech is the future of Terran.
New replays pack! http://www.mediafire.com/?1ohui81vzbiybty Actually, i'm doing since a few days a fast 4 oc into mech/air style, playing totally defensive (no harass, etc) and abusing the power of 4 OC scanning/muling to be able to adapt my composition instead of going for a more generic one. Having 4 oc makes adapting to his play and replenishing your economy really easily
Having so much trouble over the past few days, I've gone from winning nearly every game to losing most of them for really stupid reasons like getting myself supply blocked. I guess I'm on some kind of tilt as losses are getting me really angry for no reason and it's badly affecting my play as it just feels like I can't win at all. I hate when this happens.
I've gone from winning nearly every single TvZ to losing every single one and it's the only matchup I seem to be getting. I think I need a break then watch my replays of me winning and try and work out where I'm going wrong. Sorry if it sounds a little ranty, I've just got nowhere else to complain. x.x
Calm down, watch your loss reps, identify recurring mistakes, focus on avoiding those specific mistakes in the remainder of your practice games. Best way to continue a loss streak is to avoid watching them and keep making yourself angry. Usually loss streaks are caused by super simple mistakes too, but if you just ignore them and move on to the next game you keep making them.
Yeah I checked my replays last night before I went to bed and I think I understand where I was going wrong. I changed my opening from 1fact FE into 1fact banshees and while trying to micro my banshees which ultimately did no damage due to him getting spores blindly I kind of let my macro slip and I was supply blocked for ages.
Venting definately helps to get rid of the anger, but I'm ready to keep on fighting today now so after I've done all my usual stuff It's back to practicing. ^^
On September 04 2012 04:26 coldscars wrote: If you guys want you can add my stream for tvz mech source, ill be streaming every day for the next week . See Youuu Im 1300pts Master League.
On September 04 2012 04:17 kollin wrote: So I played a TvT vs Qikz today and oh my god he is so good at mech vs mech. He dominated me for the entire game, past like the 10 minute mark.
Unlike mech vs bio I guess I just know how to set up good tank lines as with mech it's really hard to break the tank line without good vision and slow pushing, if you do that kind of tank line against bio it gets shut down so hard and it makes me sad. Well until you get 3-3 and it's really hard for bio to do anything.
Mech vs Mech is definately the best though. I really do wish I'd come across more mech on ladder.
Oh by the way I managed to find those ESV maps finally so next time we play we could try them out. ^^
On September 04 2012 04:17 kollin wrote: So I played a TvT vs Qikz today and oh my god he is so good at mech vs mech. He dominated me for the entire game, past like the 10 minute mark.
Unlike mech vs bio I guess I just know how to set up good tank lines as with mech it's really hard to break the tank line without good vision and slow pushing, if you do that kind of tank line against bio it gets shut down so hard and it makes me sad. Well until you get 3-3 and it's really hard for bio to do anything.
Mech vs Mech is definately the best though. I really do wish I'd come across more mech on ladder.
Oh by the way I managed to find those ESV maps finally so next time we play we could try them out. ^^
Brilliant :D I literally learnt more in that game about TvT mech than I did in the past 50. I think I was scanning far too much and not pushing my tank line our far enough. My armoury was pretty late too.
On September 04 2012 04:17 kollin wrote: So I played a TvT vs Qikz today and oh my god he is so good at mech vs mech. He dominated me for the entire game, past like the 10 minute mark.
Unlike mech vs bio I guess I just know how to set up good tank lines as with mech it's really hard to break the tank line without good vision and slow pushing, if you do that kind of tank line against bio it gets shut down so hard and it makes me sad. Well until you get 3-3 and it's really hard for bio to do anything.
Mech vs Mech is definately the best though. I really do wish I'd come across more mech on ladder.
Oh by the way I managed to find those ESV maps finally so next time we play we could try them out. ^^
Brilliant :D I literally learnt more in that game about TvT mech than I did in the past 50. I think I was scanning far too much and not pushing my tank line our far enough. My armoury was pretty late too.
Well the way I showed you there was how I play mech TvT and I've got a map for cross against bio, it works quite similar for close on vertical too, horizontal is pretty straight forward, but it's how I set myself up to force them into air basically as they'll never break it without air.
So basically I'm green and the bio player is red. I forgo middle control completely as it's a waste of time as he'll run around the middle. The green dots are tank lines with the turrets and sensor towers in front. The 1/2 and 3 are the order I take the last 3 bases for the gas as to secure the bases quickly and efficiently and basically what you're trying to do is completely zone off your side of the map for any form of attacks. The turrets stop drops into the main areas and even with a full bio force it's really hard to break tank lines in those positions. He can never run around the side or get any flanks, he has to run into the lined up heavily upgraded tank lines and so far I've never had it fail me. You can't obviously set up right away and setting up your tanks on the other side of the map you have to do very carefully, but with enough tanks you quite frankly become unbreakable if you have turrets.
You then sit there with your largish starport count and scan for whenever you notice him going air. Then you start pumping vikings, you throw away any mining minerals SCVs you have and focus entirely on mules. You then (as the person who already had 2 armories getting all the mech upgrades and start the air ones) simply out produce vikings and just win the game that way.
TvT I have no idea why, but is easily my best matchup, it was in Broodwar too as I love looking at the maps and thinking up these kind of map things.
EDIT: Today I think I finally learnt the final piece in the zerg puzzle. Have you guys ever targeted Larva with hellions before? Yeah, it's not pretty and it basically means if you're clever enough about it you can really hinder their remax by just throwing hellions at larva kills.
On September 04 2012 04:17 kollin wrote: So I played a TvT vs Qikz today and oh my god he is so good at mech vs mech. He dominated me for the entire game, past like the 10 minute mark.
Unlike mech vs bio I guess I just know how to set up good tank lines as with mech it's really hard to break the tank line without good vision and slow pushing, if you do that kind of tank line against bio it gets shut down so hard and it makes me sad. Well until you get 3-3 and it's really hard for bio to do anything.
Mech vs Mech is definately the best though. I really do wish I'd come across more mech on ladder.
Oh by the way I managed to find those ESV maps finally so next time we play we could try them out. ^^
Brilliant :D I literally learnt more in that game about TvT mech than I did in the past 50. I think I was scanning far too much and not pushing my tank line our far enough. My armoury was pretty late too.
Well the way I showed you there was how I play mech TvT and I've got a map for cross against bio, it works quite similar for close on vertical too, horizontal is pretty straight forward, but it's how I set myself up to force them into air basically as they'll never break it without air.
So basically I'm green and the bio player is red. I forgo middle control completely as it's a waste of time as he'll run around the middle. The green dots are tank lines with the turrets and sensor towers in front. The 1/2 and 3 are the order I take the last 3 bases for the gas as to secure the bases quickly and efficiently and basically what you're trying to do is completely zone off your side of the map for any form of attacks. The turrets stop drops into the main areas and even with a full bio force it's really hard to break tank lines in those positions. He can never run around the side or get any flanks, he has to run into the lined up heavily upgraded tank lines and so far I've never had it fail me. You can't obviously set up right away and setting up your tanks on the other side of the map you have to do very carefully, but with enough tanks you quite frankly become unbreakable if you have turrets.
You then sit there with your largish starport count and scan for whenever you notice him going air. Then you start pumping vikings, you throw away any mining minerals SCVs you have and focus entirely on mules. You then (as the person who already had 2 armories getting all the mech upgrades and start the air ones) simply out produce vikings and just win the game that way.
TvT I have no idea why, but is easily my best matchup, it was in Broodwar too as I love looking at the maps and thinking up these kind of map things.
Yeah I generally try and think of these positional things too. For example I had the idea on shakuras plateau of dropping tanks and 3 scv's on the main base that overlooks your opponents third then walling off with supply depots.mi haven't tried it out yet, but I would like to! Also that diagram you drew was really helpful. I think when I played against you, that's how I was playing. I was turtling too much and not trying to move out and secure position on you. Thanks for the help you've given me.
Edit: About your hellion question yes I have! I do it when I the drones have run away, because chances are I will hinder him more by killing 6 or 7 lava than 2 or 3 drones.
On September 04 2012 14:25 Nightmarjoo wrote: Anyone have an extra europe account I could use briefly to try out to test the latency? If it's playable I'll get my own eu account and join you guys.
If I had one I'd love to give you it, but sadly I've only got the one account. Hopefully someone else'll be able to help you out as it'd be cool being able to play some TvTs with you. ^^
I hate when you ask someone better for help. You think you're doing so well and they teach you that you could be doing everything so much better.
Thanks for the help today Lyra, sorry if I was a bit stubborn at times, but hopefully with all your help you've given me I can improve quicker than I have been. ^^
what are some ways to win against a mass bio player who does drops and run by's with small marine/ruder forces as a mech player, i've been having trouble dealing with that in the early game.
On September 05 2012 14:38 Blackknight232 wrote: what are some ways to win against a mass bio player who does drops and run by's with small marine/ruder forces as a mech player, i've been having trouble dealing with that in the early game.
Good sim city, good unit splitting and knowing where to defend helps with that. ^^
Me and Kollin are going to do some sim city diagrams/screenshots of good building placement for your base to make sure your units don't get stuck and you have enough room for turrets and stuff.
How did lastshadow get in and not idra? Also Avilo if you're reading this could I ask if you will still be providing your mech tvp replays for the thread.
Would you really want Idra giving his balance advice on a game? Honestly the guy is one of the most biased players around and whines about everything, even when it's perfectly fine.
Was that your style you play in Mech TvP now? It looked similar and if it is I think I understand what to do now since I've seen someone do it (or something similar)
just wondering for those that play on Condemned Ridge is it okay to open reactor hellion for tvz? idk what people do on this map since zerg can expand so many times.
Reactor expand is a bad build imo. It has a much slower expo than 1rax cc or cc first into hellion/banshee, but has no extra harass potential. Reactor hellion banshee before cc has an even slower expo, but has much better harass potential. I consider it to be viable still (provided your control is good).
I kind of agree with you. I think the Ver and Dwf picked it apart very well and on second thoughts I am not sure whether it belongs here. However, I wish to see what he does about the criticism. Though, apologies to him, I think I will take it down. On other news, tomorrow I'm getting off my arse and redoing the vods section! There will be a short guide on how you can contribute to it included.
Guys whats your late game transition in TvT with mech against bio+mech, pure bio or pure mech?
I'm not sure what the is the correct response. my responses so far:
against mech: fast BC tech -nearly completly air transition against bio+mech: raven+viking and some banshees to snipe tanks and ground support from tanks against pure bio: raven+viking+banshee (later bc) and tank+hellion support
are these the correct responses? What do you think? replays are welcome
For me I always transition into mass battlecruiser.
Against Bio I do it slower as I wait until I get a critical tank count where he can't push me and I can secure bases.
Against Mech I do it faster as it always benefits you to be the first person to do it as long as you have good space control, it's good to prepare starports with both techlabs and reactors and then react to what he's doing, if he's going to add a bunch of vikings really quickly, then stop battlecruisers and add ravens with vikings yourself, make sure you have 1 or two thors for extra damage too.
If the mech player goes full bcs too, then just carry on with bcs and get better yamatos than he does. I mean you can get loads of vikings, but BC vs BC is much more fun! :D
If you're too slow to transition first, just add vikings and ravens, then add BCs after.
One thing I will say though is make sure you get your air upgrades as quick as possible. Against all matchups in TvT I've been getting 2 armories, then adding +3 attack on my mech and getting +3 on plating for my air as quickly as possible since it basically makes the BCs survive forever against marines.
On September 11 2012 19:28 Qikz wrote: For me I always transition into mass battlecruiser.
Against Bio I do it slower as I wait until I get a critical tank count where he can't push me and I can secure bases.
Against Mech I do it faster as it always benefits you to be the first person to do it as long as you have good space control, it's good to prepare starports with both techlabs and reactors and then react to what he's doing, if he's going to add a bunch of vikings really quickly, then stop battlecruisers and add ravens with vikings yourself, make sure you have 1 or two thors for extra damage too.
If the mech player goes full bcs too, then just carry on with bcs and get better yamatos than he does. I mean you can get loads of vikings, but BC vs BC is much more fun! :D
If you're too slow to transition first, just add vikings and ravens, then add BCs after.
against mech you only need some BC imo because raven with pdd, hsm and lots of vikings rape the traditional bc+viking composition and just add some BC to snipe thors, kill turetts and kill ground units of course..
against pure bio i find it really hard to go into mass BC because marines are fast and kill your BC really efficient or should i just build mass hellion (no gas need) and transition into Air (BC/Raven/Viking), because most bio player build tons of starport if they noticed they can not break you with bio.
against tank+marine+medivac i like to snipe tanks with banshee and i really like hsm against marines :D you can also throw down auto turrets around his tanks and "catch" them.
On September 11 2012 19:28 Qikz wrote: For me I always transition into mass battlecruiser.
Against Bio I do it slower as I wait until I get a critical tank count where he can't push me and I can secure bases.
Against Mech I do it faster as it always benefits you to be the first person to do it as long as you have good space control, it's good to prepare starports with both techlabs and reactors and then react to what he's doing, if he's going to add a bunch of vikings really quickly, then stop battlecruisers and add ravens with vikings yourself, make sure you have 1 or two thors for extra damage too.
If the mech player goes full bcs too, then just carry on with bcs and get better yamatos than he does. I mean you can get loads of vikings, but BC vs BC is much more fun! :D
If you're too slow to transition first, just add vikings and ravens, then add BCs after.
against mech you only need some BC imo because raven with pdd, hsm and lots of vikings rape the traditional bc+viking composition and just add some BC to snipe thors, kill turetts and kill ground units of course..
against pure bio i find it really hard to go into mass BC because marines are fast and kill your BC really efficient or should i just build mass hellion (no gas need) and transition into Air (BC/Raven/Viking), because most bio player build tons of starport if they noticed they can not break you with bio.
against tank+marine+medivac i like to snipe tanks with banshee and i really like hsm against marines :D you can also throw down auto turrets around his tanks and "catch" them.
Every time I've gone up against mass BC i've lost because of Yamato Cannon spam. Does anybody really feel comfortable when it goes to air vs air? It seems like a complete clusterfuck when the engagement happens. I don't know what i'm supposed to prioritise compositionally and the engagement seems to come down to who happened to get the better composition and hits the AOE.
On September 11 2012 19:28 Qikz wrote: For me I always transition into mass battlecruiser.
Against Bio I do it slower as I wait until I get a critical tank count where he can't push me and I can secure bases.
Against Mech I do it faster as it always benefits you to be the first person to do it as long as you have good space control, it's good to prepare starports with both techlabs and reactors and then react to what he's doing, if he's going to add a bunch of vikings really quickly, then stop battlecruisers and add ravens with vikings yourself, make sure you have 1 or two thors for extra damage too.
If the mech player goes full bcs too, then just carry on with bcs and get better yamatos than he does. I mean you can get loads of vikings, but BC vs BC is much more fun! :D
If you're too slow to transition first, just add vikings and ravens, then add BCs after.
against mech you only need some BC imo because raven with pdd, hsm and lots of vikings rape the traditional bc+viking composition and just add some BC to snipe thors, kill turetts and kill ground units of course..
against pure bio i find it really hard to go into mass BC because marines are fast and kill your BC really efficient or should i just build mass hellion (no gas need) and transition into Air (BC/Raven/Viking), because most bio player build tons of starport if they noticed they can not break you with bio.
against tank+marine+medivac i like to snipe tanks with banshee and i really like hsm against marines :D you can also throw down auto turrets around his tanks and "catch" them.
Every time I've gone up against mass BC i've lost because of Yamato Cannon spam. Does anybody really feel comfortable when it goes to air vs air? It seems like a complete clusterfuck when the engagement happens. I don't know what i'm supposed to prioritise compositionally and the engagement seems to come down to who happened to get the better composition and hits the AOE.
I love when it goes to air vs air as I usually win. What you want to do is when you have a lot of battlecruisers, make sure to try to yamato the ravens as you go into engage. I don't even bother using HSM as two thors underneath your army, good yamato cannons and also good viking spread means you'll most likely win most air engagements.
If you feel you've fallen behind in the air transition and it'll be hard to catch up, just start getting up a lot of thors and also turrets and force him to engage you while you're on top of them all. Even with a smaller airforce, with decent ground to air you'll still win.
The most important thing is to focus down the ravens with whatever you can quickly, which is usually yamato cannons as they go through PDD.
Well the discussion is pretty dead, as well as there being not much room for a discussion in the first place. Thank you for suggesting something, but I will have to say no.
On September 11 2012 19:28 Qikz wrote: For me I always transition into mass battlecruiser.
Against Bio I do it slower as I wait until I get a critical tank count where he can't push me and I can secure bases.
Against Mech I do it faster as it always benefits you to be the first person to do it as long as you have good space control, it's good to prepare starports with both techlabs and reactors and then react to what he's doing, if he's going to add a bunch of vikings really quickly, then stop battlecruisers and add ravens with vikings yourself, make sure you have 1 or two thors for extra damage too.
If the mech player goes full bcs too, then just carry on with bcs and get better yamatos than he does. I mean you can get loads of vikings, but BC vs BC is much more fun! :D
If you're too slow to transition first, just add vikings and ravens, then add BCs after.
against mech you only need some BC imo because raven with pdd, hsm and lots of vikings rape the traditional bc+viking composition and just add some BC to snipe thors, kill turetts and kill ground units of course..
against pure bio i find it really hard to go into mass BC because marines are fast and kill your BC really efficient or should i just build mass hellion (no gas need) and transition into Air (BC/Raven/Viking), because most bio player build tons of starport if they noticed they can not break you with bio.
against tank+marine+medivac i like to snipe tanks with banshee and i really like hsm against marines :D you can also throw down auto turrets around his tanks and "catch" them.
come on guys i'am really interested in your opinions and want to discuss whats the best way to play against the different compositions of terran.
Early on in mech vs mech thors can be useful (regardless of air presence).
If the bio player gets tanks but doesn't get air you make banshees to snipe his tanks (using the dynamic between tank/viking/banshee).
If the bio player goes mass air you make mass viking with raven support and then bcs. Ghosts can be useful at this point for emping ravens.
Ultimately tvt converges no matter what style either player is using (mech vs bio, mech vs mech, bio vs bio) into bc/raven/viking/thor + tank (and maybe ghost) support, and either marine or hellion filler as is appropriate.
Seeker is pretty bad vs bio. You can nail the center marine of a group (you'll almost certainly lose the raven to get that shot off though) and you'll kill something like 6 marines and injure a few more (which his medics will heal instantly).
Most frequently you're going to encounter mech vs bio where the bio will add in tanks on 3base and vikings on 4base (and bcs). Nobody actually goes "pure bio" for an entire game unless it's either a very short game or they want to lose really badly the moment the mecher maxes.
Ok so I've been trying and trying to get your opening to work for me Lyra, I couldn't get it to work so just now I thought I'd try my own opening which opens 1 rax FE into siege expand. From there I go to the comp that you use but I get all my tanks first to keep me super safe early, I sit on my three bases I secure when I get my thors and start transitioning into BCs.
I just had a game there where the composition worked so well (I forgot ghosts even) that I ended up with about 6 BCs, 6 thors and 5 tanks with hellions and just went and killed him. God damn BCs are strong with Thor and Siege support. First TvP I've won in a good load of days too! Happy :D
Well Qikz keep doing whatever works for you. If it ever stops working I can teach you my style if you're interested. You shouldn't be attacking with 6 bc 6 thor 5 tank ever though ._>
Kollin my typical opening is thor expand (most frequently it's armory cc thor if I'm not concerned about aggression). Unless stuff protoss does drives me to do otherwise I have a soft goal of 8 tank 6 thor, but that's independant of the opening itself. So if I scout what looks like a 4gate and get a tank instead of hellion/armory I'll make a few tanks after cc to remain secure before adding in thors. Typically though, if I open my thor expand it's 3rd cc after 3rd thor, then tank/siege, fact fact, ghost acad, moebius reactor, 2nd rax, ghost production (the ghost production part is a little different from what I used to, where I got much later ghost upgrades and just started ghost production on 1rax asap), 4th cc is when I can afford, then turrets to keep me secure as I spread out and expand, etc; as is possible in-game. From there the buildings I make and how I use them is dependant on the map and game.
My midgame is thor/tank/hellion/ghost, and yes I add ports after I buy 6th thor (assuming I've already gotten 8th tank). Depending on opponent's composition and my determination of their probability of aggression I may make some more tanks, or I might make some banshees, else I'll go into bc production. Unless I feel compelled to make more for defense's sake I won't make more tank/thor.
Lategame I'll be pumping ghosts, bcs, nukes as I use them, hellions as supply allows, and maybe ravens if I can't afford bcs for cost or supply and feel compelled to make something. I'll add a few more facts and a 3rd rax (the rax earlier than the facts) for rapid remaxing purposes. Once the fighting starts in earnest I'll replace ghosts and thors with highest priority, and then bcs. I often make pure hellion from facts in endgame scenarios if my thor count is acceptable. I don't make more tanks typically. My endgame army almost never includes any tanks. Tanks are only useful vs mass stalker by that point for defensive purposes. Max stalker is typical if you win a fight but have your own army badly damaged in the process. Protoss makes stalker to quickly remax and run around map and if your army isn't good enough to split up adequately tanks can be useful. If I'm broke I may make banshees instead of bcs.
Ah Lyra I forgot to say I only went and attacked after I killed his entire army. He attacked into me, lost everything and I pushed since I knew he didn't have enough to stop me.
Almost won another game just there, but it was on cloud kingdom and he ran up the ramp and killed my main. That game taught me that Yamato can actually be cancelled by Feedback, half killing the BCs and also making them a lot weaker again. Kind of sucks, but I'll have to be careful of that in the future.
Also just won me a TvT and got myself promoted back to Diamond after an entire season of being back in plat. I'm on the rise again! :D
That's why you have to stay on top of ghost production and use.
If he attacks into you and suicides everything you pressure his expos and harass as is possible but you don't attack. Protoss remaxes instantly on gate units, which suck. So you just make your army invincible and laugh as he can't do anything with his and can't make a good army without suiciding everything again. If you attack at that time he has a chance to win.
If zerg didn't get gas I'll make my 3rd cc at my 3rd. If they get gas I'll make it in-base and lift it in so as to not worry about speedling harass. Just watch a rep and see what else is going on when your cc finishes to remember to oc it, and couple what's going on when that oc finishes to lift it.
Well, not quite. You did your build wrong for one haha. Generally speaking you had too many defensive pfs, too few ocs, too many tanks, and too few ghosts. I do like your slowpush through the middle though.
This game was so, so painful. I tried Nightmarjoo's build (execution was probably poor, but it wasn't the beginning of the game that was the problem), and managed to take it to super lategame. I had battlecruiser ghost, attacked into his army after he lost everything attacking into my PF's and just got rolled. There are some weird things I did (that mass scanning everywhere because I was worried about his army comp), but I just don't know why I got raped so so hard in the last fight. A big problem for me is my game lags like a bitch when motherships come out, so it was pretty hard to get off decent EMP's. I don't know, I just feel like with that amount of BC's, I really shouldn't have died in the way I did.
Well your interpretation of my build is the closest I've seen so far, so let me clarify the important differences from what you did up until the final battle to what I do.
Your opening was slightly wrong: it's hellion armory reactor cc thor; you omitted the hellion and reactor. You were lucky enough to scout his nexus with scv; this isn't always possible. Even after scouting the nexus it's important to get a sense of what he's doing after that nexus. Hellion can scout the map to rule out aggression as a possibility because it'll find no pylons, and you can control the tower. Lacking the reactor means that if he happened to not FE you might not be able to produce enough units to hold his aggression. It's important to move your bunker to the nat asap. Remember that you're cutting units to get a faster cc; if he 4gates after nexus you want to have a position to defend. I consider it important to fully wall the nat choke additionally-- helps vs dts. Speaking of dts, your scouting could not possibly eliminate dt after nexus as a possibility so as such you needed ebay/turret much sooner to be safe. How indeed you felt safe with no wall, no bunker, no turret, no scout, and no tower is beyond me.
Some depot missing, additional nonconstant scv production, and taking nat geysers too early (if all you're producing before 3rd cc is thor/attack ups, 2gas yields the income necessary for constant production; if you want further excess gas then just take 1 nat gas before 3rd cc) stunted your mineral income dramatically early on, slowing your 3rd, putting you significantly behind where you should be for rest of game.
Wall on 3rd choke is important too; especially on this map since you're putting an oc at your 3rd. You've made it ridiculously easy for protoss to slip dts or even zlots into your main and nat once you've moved to your 4th.
Your ports and ccs are late; should be spending your money more efficiently. Moment you queue 6th thor your next 450 gas should be buying ports; and once you've paid for your turret ring and sensor towers *cough cough* your minerals should be going into ccs (without interrupting other unit production). The moment cloak finishes you should get a nuke and start harassing with your ghosts. Hellion harass can identify his army positioning, get a sense for the extent of his obs spread, and identify good nuking spots (as well as his army composition, which guides your composition).
Try to use your limited space more efficiently (e.g. use the space at your 3rd for ccs or ports or both; nat is more vulnerable).
Ghosts are very very very very very very very important; you MUST get at least a 2nd rax as you're taking your 4th.
At 20:00 you have over 4k and are behind by about 8 OCs; what's the problem? Additionally you aren't maxed, which is very dangerous at this point. You need to take a 5th much sooner (as soon as you can afford). Especially on this map where the 5th is so near your 4th, and gives you more precious building space.
Building armour and pf/turret range are very important upgrades; get them on 4base at the latest.
I like the part where you ask "where the hell is your army". If that wasn't a big self-clue that you needed sensor towers (and turrets) up then I'm a horse.
Speaking of that army; it was near your army/defense and had no obs. You could've snuck some ghosts behind it and sniped all of his hts while creeping tanks forward with the bulk of your army near your pf. It's funny that you're hesitating to attack him when it's in your interest to do so while you're also in an advantageous position since later you attack him when it's not in your interest to do so while in an incredibly disadvantageous position.
Not using your ghosts during the first fight caused you to take far more damage than was necessary. You didn't even use your entire army in that fight; you had some random tanks defending a pf. The pf can take care of itself, keep your army together. You have about half the OC count you need; so in addition to taking much much much more damage in that fight you also lacked the funds to reconstruct your army.
Then the thing that kills you is you decide after almost losing the game in a defensive position to engage him in the middle of the map next to a pylon, far away from your defenses. You didn't even have your entire max with you; you had 4 tanks, a ghost, a bc, and 4 in-construction bcs not at the battle. You had no money for repairs. You did not use a single emp during the entire fight. You had no pdds or seeker missiles. And you fought him next to a pylon -_-. You had less than one max fighting more than one max using a composition weak to his. Why you expected to win the fight is beyond me.
Mech is about maximizing the advantage and capitalizing on its efficiency, utilizing every part of the Terran arsenal. You did none of these. I didn't see a single nuke used in the entire game. The only time you used your hellions was to suicide them into colos for supply. Unmaxing may never be the most elegant tool, but you can honour your units a little better and suicide them usefully at least. I'm not even sure if you used a single emp or snipe during the entire game either. This means that you're fighting more units than you should, they all take more hits from your units before dying than they should, and your opponent has more money to replace his units than he should. In contrast you have fewer units than you should, with less money than you should have for repairs and replacements
So your problems that game were having weak macro and poor unit control, in and outside the battles. While I may sound very harsh in my critique, you were very close in many respects to doing the build the way I do it. You just need to tighten up your play: make your spending more efficient, and get more out of your units.
Thanks for the help Lyra. When I went for the engagement at the end I thought he would have less, so I could come out ahead. I didn't use emp's because quite frankly the mother ship made my game lag to hell (a poor excuse, but still). I forgot sensor towers and missile turrets because I've not been doing much mech recently, except in TvZ, so it was just forgetfulness on my part. I forgot entirely about getting the 2nd rax despite reading when I should. Once again, stupidity on my part. Bad macro, while being very bad thing to do, is quite a general thing that I want to improve in all matchups so there's not much I can say there. The rest of it I plainly didn't know, so I appreciate it a lot. You said about ravens for pdd's, when I see that many stalkers should I begin getting 7 or 8 ravens to counter with pdd's or do I just want them generally?
Well you probably never need that amount of ravens: that's a lot of supply. Generally they're helpful in small numbers; and as you need something to fight carrier but can't afford bc or simply don't have the money/supply for another bc ravens can fill that gap. They aren't terrific vs mass stalker in and of themselves; they're a support unit, not a counter unit.
MKP just used a sick mech build on Ohana, he played it out really weirdly but I think I've finally found the style I want in TvZ.
He goes from reactor hellion into double armory 3rd CC and starts getting thors. It was really awesome and I hate banshees so I'll enjoy using that build <3
yeah it was a nice build but imo espicially in TvZ you need those banshees - they are just a great harrassment potential, force spores, snipe queens and deny bases .. i also thought about a fast 3 CC build with siegemode first and double armory (i guess it was thorzain against moon in a showmatch between eg and fnatic) but in the midgame you need starport tech imo
What should I do in late game TvZ? I've tried getting that 200 food ball of Viking raven Thor bc and I usually win the 1st fight, but the relax on 40 corruptors + ultras just destroys me? So do I want to be turtling while he throws waves of units at me until he has no more money or is there something else I should be doing?
On September 20 2012 03:57 kollin wrote: What should I do in late game TvZ? I've tried getting that 200 food ball of Viking raven Thor bc and I usually win the 1st fight, but the relax on 40 corruptors + ultras just destroys me? So do I want to be turtling while he throws waves of units at me until he has no more money or is there something else I should be doing?
exactly numbers of your late composition.. i guess their is the problem imo this terran deathball beats everything of the zerg
http://drop.sc/255763 This is from Tuesday's europe playhem; the game gets a little close at one point due to a moment of poor army control on my part, but overall the game accurately portrays how I handle very long tvzs. This is pretty typical of a mech game on whirlwind additionally.
any idea how to play tvp mech after the protoss opens pheonix? should i go for reactor starport and try and wrestle air control from him? do i try and go for a 2 base marine tank all-in as his gas is going to non splash tech?
anyone got any replays specifically against stargate openers?
What do you need air control for? Hold his phoenix harass with Thors, prevent them from being useful in battle by emping them before a fight, and stay on top of his tech and army size/composition to see if he's going carrier.
79 more reps: http://drop.sc/packs/1409 A few of the most recent are bio, don't let that alarm you, I just used that to see what kind of shape my bio was in. Vast majority are still mech~
Had a 3 day break, jumped back in today and had some of the weirdest games I've ever seen. I lost them all due to reacting really badly to things I'd seen/some cheeses so hopefully after looking at my replays, I'll be able to see where I went wrong and change my play to react a bit better.
The first was a 1 base TvT where the guy went hellion/marine drop into containing me really fast with tanks/marines. My main mistake was I didn't switch in to tanks quick enough when I scouted he was on 1 base. I evacuated my nat and barely lost any workers, but by the time I got tanks with siege I was considerably behind. I ended up taking it to the late game, but was so far behind it took me ages of battling back his armies over and over again before I could secure a fourth. I lost to his air switch when I'd just lost a load of vikings to a missclick.
Second was a TvZ. He had a baneling nest down at 6:30 so I expected a baneling bust. I prepared by getting tanks quicker, but the bust never came. I had good upgrades, got onto my third base but when I scanned again I noticed he was still on lair. I didn't see an infestation pit or spire so I started thors and turrets, but he came in with quite a lot of mutas in one go, my thors were not ready and the turrets I had wasn't enough. I eventually held them off, but I lost a lot of workers. I made the decision to go attack as I thought he wouldn't have much of a ground force, I saw he was only on 4 base, with only 2 mining so I thought my strong tank/thor push would just kill him. He threw a load of roaches at me, it was going fine until all my thors randomly stopped attacking roaches and attacked some overlords they saw at the edge of my vision, he overran my tanks and thors and from there just kept barreling down my front with roaches, with me unable to catch up.
Thirdly, I 1 rax FE'd as usual in TvT and he came with a bunch of marines due to me building my bunker too late. I reacted really stupidly and it put me massively behind. He was still on 2 base (or so I thought, due to me being so behind I couldn't afford to scan and my unit production was focused on tanks thinking he was all inning me) when I eventually managed to get some hellions to send out. He'd taken 3 extra bases and was mining gas, I started adding turrets as I knew BCs were coming, but that was my flaw. I should have added a few turrets and made vikings instead, but I turret pushed slowly out to take my third, at this point I was so far behind that I thought if I could bait him into the turrets and kill all his BCs I could go kill him with my big ground army, but I couldn't get enough gas for vikings on top of that and although I killed most of his BCs with only losing turrets, he just kept making them and I couldn't push out. I lost eventually when I got mined out in my 2 bases I could secure myself and gg'd. what put me so far behind was my odd as hell reaction to his initial 8 marine push that broke my front, I really screwed up that completely. :/
Were there any good mech TvZ games to watch from Dreamhack off the top of anybody's head? Preferably they should be, (somewhat) back and forth rather than some early game stomp into an easy mech win.
http://drop.sc/packs/1410 35 reps from dreamhack where fagflame was researched involving at least one notable player. I can't guarantee all are mech, but most if not all should be.
so after 4 games of back to back tvz's i've been wondering about what people think in terms of playing a heavy defensive style where instead of YOU attacking the zerg, you force him to come to you since terran can sit near the p.f's, and infestor's can't ge near ur army to chain fungal or lob I.T since u'll have turrets up and lots of tanks and zero agression till u know you win
On October 02 2012 13:13 Blackknight232 wrote: so after 4 games of back to back tvz's i've been wondering about what people think in terms of playing a heavy defensive style where instead of YOU attacking the zerg, you force him to come to you since terran can sit near the p.f's, and infestor's can't ge near ur army to chain fungal or lob I.T since u'll have turrets up and lots of tanks and zero agression till u know you win
On October 02 2012 13:13 Blackknight232 wrote: so after 4 games of back to back tvz's i've been wondering about what people think in terms of playing a heavy defensive style where instead of YOU attacking the zerg, you force him to come to you since terran can sit near the p.f's, and infestor's can't ge near ur army to chain fungal or lob I.T since u'll have turrets up and lots of tanks and zero agression till u know you win
Welcome to proper mech. Your army is more effective if you're fightingn ear your pfs and turrets (see if those corruptors chase your vikings over a line of turrets). If zerg isn't attacking you cuz he can't, you can further improve your composition and accumulate more spellcaster energy. However this doesn't mean you can't be aggressive, it just means that you aren't being aggressive with the core of your army. So hellions and banshees if you have them should still be running around, killing tumors, maybe drones, checking his unit composition, getting free stray-unit kills, etc. You should be nuking multiple expos at once constantly, and then adapting to his army reaction. If he pulls too many units you can kill more tumors, etc. Or you can sneak a ghost into a previously unsafe location, and/or run hellions somewhere, etc.
I don't know any good example games. The build is pretty straight forward though, as I understand it. 1rax cc 2gas (if you make cc on 1depot at 16 or 17 (1 marine) with 2gas asap after cc your factory is 20 seconds faster than if you make cc on 2depot with constant scv production (20 cc), but you have significantly poorer mineral income. From there you're dumping the minerals you have thanks to the FE into hellions for map control, getting raven and vikings to both be safe from banshee but also to help your push (viking for vision, pdd for marauder/viking), and you can get a banshee too if you want (best if opponent isn't making early vikings).
I usually do fact reactor, port, fact fact, raven, techlabltechlab, fagflame, fact, tanks, siege. I dunno the gas timing, but for port production/fact construction/fagflame you need 3gas, and then need 4gas to make 4th fact and constant 2tanks and siege. Don't make tanks asap, at first you're just making hellions to control map and harass as is possible. Assuming you don't lose much, your attack timing is on ~150 supply. You can either make 3rd cc as you push, or pull a healthy scv count and go all-in (presumably based on how greedy your opponent has been and/or on how much damage you've been able to do with your hellions).
The problem with this build is that since you're going FE your opponent can fairly safely be pretty greedy which makes it hard to succeed with the attack. I saw TheStc use a similar build in the past except he opened gas first fagflame cc (more ambiguous, but worse mineral income which slows fact timing).
http://drop.sc/263055 Here's my take on the build. It didn't go very well: despite taking a fast 3rd cc he was able to easily defend; though that's mostly due to my messing up my port production (accidentally made an extra techlab instead of reactor, and decided to put the 4th fact on reactor instead of port). The rest of the game is interesting though imo: shows my lategame tvt tactics.
I think if you face and are able to hold a one base play or a late Expansion build like Fast CLoak Banshee there is no way for your opponent to hold this attack properly and maybe even directly kill him. If he plays a fe strategy it's in my opinion more a very hard contain move and no kill move.
You send your first 150 Supply to Contain him and the rest of your army is rallied home to defend your base. You get complete map control, you have the air control and deny him his 3rd base and he needs it to transition into air. In fact you can buy time and you can not face a fast air transition.
My fault in the first games i played this strat was that i want to kill him even if i faced a fe build. You can just contain him and get huge advantages from this.
On October 12 2012 19:11 saaaa wrote: I think if you face and are able to hold a one base play or a late Expansion build like Fast CLoak Banshee there is no way for your opponent to hold this attack properly and maybe even directly kill him. If he plays a fe strategy it's in my opinion more a very hard contain move and no kill move.
You send your first 150 Supply to Contain him and the rest of your army is rallied home to defend your base. You get complete map control, you have the air control and deny him his 3rd base and he needs it to transition into air. In fact you can buy time and you can not face a fast air transition.
My fault in the first games i played this strat was that i want to kill him even if i faced a fe build. You can just contain him and get huge advantages from this.
Why all terrans get Blue Flame before Siege? I think Siege is way better against Bio centric armies espicially with maradaurs.
On October 12 2012 19:11 saaaa wrote: I think if you face and are able to hold a one base play or a late Expansion build like Fast CLoak Banshee there is no way for your opponent to hold this attack properly and maybe even directly kill him. If he plays a fe strategy it's in my opinion more a very hard contain move and no kill move.
You send your first 150 Supply to Contain him and the rest of your army is rallied home to defend your base. You get complete map control, you have the air control and deny him his 3rd base and he needs it to transition into air. In fact you can buy time and you can not face a fast air transition.
My fault in the first games i played this strat was that i want to kill him even if i faced a fe build. You can just contain him and get huge advantages from this.
Why all terrans get Blue Flame before Siege? I think Siege is way better against Bio centric armies espicially with maradaurs.
edit: sry hit the quote button not the edit..
Map control. Hellions are fast. If you get siege first and constantly make tanks you either have less gas to make other facts with (and raven, vikings, everything else that requires gas). You have 0 aggression-potential unless you're also massing marines (which is viable). If you need to defend, you have to leave your tanks sieged in possible attack/drop locations, splitting up your force. By contrast Hellions can easily pick off individual units if he's not careful with good harass, and can quickly move to wherever your opponent is being aggressive at.
Just want to say that the double fact blue flame hellion from MVP this GSL was amazing.. Even if zerg blocks it.. with ALOT of defence = Money spent on NOT drones and NOT economy, and if it does work,, GG...
On October 12 2012 19:11 saaaa wrote: I think if you face and are able to hold a one base play or a late Expansion build like Fast CLoak Banshee there is no way for your opponent to hold this attack properly and maybe even directly kill him. If he plays a fe strategy it's in my opinion more a very hard contain move and no kill move.
You send your first 150 Supply to Contain him and the rest of your army is rallied home to defend your base. You get complete map control, you have the air control and deny him his 3rd base and he needs it to transition into air. In fact you can buy time and you can not face a fast air transition.
My fault in the first games i played this strat was that i want to kill him even if i faced a fe build. You can just contain him and get huge advantages from this.
Why all terrans get Blue Flame before Siege? I think Siege is way better against Bio centric armies espicially with maradaurs.
edit: sry hit the quote button not the edit..
Map control. Hellions are fast. If you get siege first and constantly make tanks you either have less gas to make other facts with (and raven, vikings, everything else that requires gas). You have 0 aggression-potential unless you're also massing marines (which is viable). If you need to defend, you have to leave your tanks sieged in possible attack/drop locations, splitting up your force. By contrast Hellions can easily pick off individual units if he's not careful with good harass, and can quickly move to wherever your opponent is being aggressive at.
also hellions can 2 shot marines without combat shield with blue flames so they are very strong early if you hit before they have combat shield
Well, I'll try it out, but I'm not a fan of it at first glance. See my comments in his thread for why. I could be wrong though, I just really dislike tank/hellion based builds.
Anyone know where Day9 got those replays of Liquid Sea meching TvP?
there's also a game of Genius vs Liquid Sea in EG MC set 2 (cloud kingdom) in TL vs SlayerS, the VOD isn't up yet though it's saved on the twitch stream
On November 26 2012 09:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Anyone know where Day9 got those replays of Liquid Sea meching TvP?
there's also a game of Genius vs Liquid Sea in EG MC set 2 (cloud kingdom) in TL vs SlayerS, the VOD isn't up yet though it's saved on the twitch stream
Are you a ladder hero or don't you want to show losses? Seeing what your styles lose to sounds more educational to me, so why not release the losses with the wins?
Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate you dumping lots of replays! More higher lever people should.
I don't usually do that because I feel like many of my losses are the product of being inactive and so I feel like they don't represent my skill or weaknesses in my play style. Some losses I feel are "genuine", where I lost because my opponent outplayed me mechanically or strategically, but those I address immediately by studying them and learning what I did wrong, so as to avoid such a fate should the scenario occur again. I hesitate to release those losses because people may incorrectly conclude that they are evidence of flaws in the style rather than flaws in my skill/decisions in that specific game.
Losses can educate how I use my style, but don't reflect inherent weaknesses in the style. All scenario-specific vulnerabilities can be covered up with proper scouting and adaptation. So if I lose, it's that I, the player Lyra, lost to my opponent, not that my underlying play-style failed. It's that interpretation that makes me not want to upload losses.
On November 29 2012 07:13 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ok, I'll include losses next time.
I don't usually do that because I feel like many of my losses are the product of being inactive and so I feel like they don't represent my skill or weaknesses in my play style. Some losses I feel are "genuine", where I lost because my opponent outplayed me mechanically or strategically, but those I address immediately by studying them and learning what I did wrong, so as to avoid such a fate should the scenario occur again. I hesitate to release those losses because people may incorrectly conclude that they are evidence of flaws in the style rather than flaws in my skill/decisions in that specific game.
Losses can educate how I use my style, but don't reflect inherent weaknesses in the style. All scenario-specific vulnerabilities can be covered up with proper scouting and adaptation. So if I lose, it's that I, the player Lyra, lost to my opponent, not that my underlying play-style failed. It's that interpretation that makes me not want to upload losses.
in that case, maybe for the replays that you lose, you note down what went wrong/what you could've done to do better?
On November 29 2012 07:13 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ok, I'll include losses next time.
I don't usually do that because I feel like many of my losses are the product of being inactive and so I feel like they don't represent my skill or weaknesses in my play style. Some losses I feel are "genuine", where I lost because my opponent outplayed me mechanically or strategically, but those I address immediately by studying them and learning what I did wrong, so as to avoid such a fate should the scenario occur again. I hesitate to release those losses because people may incorrectly conclude that they are evidence of flaws in the style rather than flaws in my skill/decisions in that specific game.
Losses can educate how I use my style, but don't reflect inherent weaknesses in the style. All scenario-specific vulnerabilities can be covered up with proper scouting and adaptation. So if I lose, it's that I, the player Lyra, lost to my opponent, not that my underlying play-style failed. It's that interpretation that makes me not want to upload losses.
No need for this much analysis....just include losses, so we can learn, it doesnt matter if you lost because you are inactive or whatever, surely we can learn something from watching losses.
Started watching the replays and they look very cool. Especially interested in the tvt as I like the focus on adding a good number of viking/banshee to obtain air dominance and push the opponents siege tanks back. Definitely will start to incorporate that in my play!
I agree with what Nightmarjoo is saying, basically releasing only replays where he wins (for you to copy/study) is one step ahead of releasing games including losses. If the reasoning is that you should include losses so people can see the mistakes or weaknesses, you can also argue that, like he said, you can fix those mistakes in a future game in which you upload.
The only downside to this way is if you fail to notice/interpret the reason for a player doing something in a game where they win. But you can also fail to come up with the "best" solution when you study games where someone loses.
as far as i know the players post a weekly replay pack(most of the times)
Ooh thanks! This will be much better than searching for mech games in his stream, which may or may not be good games. Last time I looked through a 4 hour streaming session, and literally only found 1 protoss... who died from a marine/hellion drop opener <_>
Ah, seems like this is where Day9 got his replays then.
On November 30 2012 12:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I agree with what Nightmarjoo is saying, basically releasing only replays where he wins (for you to copy/study) is one step ahead of releasing games including losses. If the reasoning is that you should include losses so people can see the mistakes or weaknesses, you can also argue that, like he said, you can fix those mistakes in a future game in which you upload.
The only downside to this way is if you fail to notice/interpret the reason for a player doing something in a game where they win. But you can also fail to come up with the "best" solution when you study games where someone loses.
as far as i know the players post a weekly replay pack(most of the times)
Ooh thanks! This will be much better than searching for mech games in his stream, which may or may not be good games. Last time I looked through a 4 hour streaming session, and literally only found 1 protoss... who died from a marine/hellion drop opener <_>
Ah, seems like this is where Day9 got his replays then.
@ Yoshi: youre welcome
ls vLog#19 - Regarding current discussion on mech and the wrongs of it.
saw lastshadow on stream today and he explained that he is back in sc2, also streamed a couple of games today. the vlog is as always on pretty damn high niveau. i recommend his vlogs to anyone who wants to play mech and actually understand mech and its right to exist
hello buddies I wonder if anyone has been playing mech in HotS Beta until now? If yes, i would like to ask for some replays mech HotS, especially TvP and TvZ. Thanks
On December 04 2012 19:14 foxj wrote: hello buddies I wonder if anyone has been playing mech in HotS Beta until now? If yes, i would like to ask for some replays mech HotS, especially TvP and TvZ. Thanks
I was going to ask for the same thing but with the latest patch i don't think any replay's would be very helpful now as there are so many changes.
I can't wait to see hybrid mech air builds. I want to start experimenting with going double factory double starport and seeing what kind of synergies I can create between the air and factory units
OK fellas, check the OP, I have changed the opening message and need to enlist your help. First of all, we DESPERATELY need VODs and replays that aren't old. If you watch a game in any tournament that you know releases either of those, please, please post. Second of all, and far less important, we really need some decent pictures ^^ If you have any pictures of a mech army doing 'terrible terrible damage', preferably in ultra quality, it would be great if you could post them there. Thanks,
I dunno if this is the kind of stuff you're looking for, but it's my favourite moment in tvp mech. In less than 20 seconds I kill Protoss' entire maxed carrier/ht/archon + mothership army with minimal losses.
Here's the replay in case you like the scenario but want different sceenshots (with better graphics perhaps): http://drop.sc/242442/
Yes, that's great and I'll put it somewhere in the OP I think for the picture that goes right at the top, something like a screenshot taken during a mech vs bio battle where the bio is getting destroyed would be good.
That might be hard to find. Winning tvt mech vs bio is usually about either defending small attacks, with constant harass on both sides until the bio player is whittled away and the mech player can finish them with a single attack that rolls them over, or if they tech up properly, outmaneuvering their mass air/tank army with your own. I don't think I ever play bio terrans bad enough that they just suicide their entire army into mine-- they're usually suiciding small groups of attackers into my small groups of defenders all over map...
On December 12 2012 05:04 Nightmarjoo wrote: That might be hard to find. Winning tvt mech vs bio is usually about either defending small attacks, with constant harass on both sides until the bio player is whittled away and the mech player can finish them with a single attack that rolls them over, or if they tech up properly, outmaneuvering their mass air/tank army with your own. I don't think I ever play bio terrans bad enough that they just suicide their entire army into mine-- they're usually suiciding small groups of attackers into my small groups of defenders all over map...
Even if the situation has to be created artificially, I still think it would look awesome.
Thanks for those, but because I don't have a great deal of time on my hands at the moment, would you mind just giving me a brief description of the games?
Thanks for those, but because I don't have a great deal of time on my hands at the moment, would you mind just giving me a brief description of the games?
From what I can remember,
In both game 1, Sea uses hellion, banshee, and some bio to all-ins.
In both game 2, Sea uses hellion and banshee to harass, and then turtle to near 200 supply with more than 30 tanks and move out. With some amazing fights in the middle, Sea is able to defeat Protoss with a tank army.
On December 12 2012 04:04 kollin wrote: I think for the picture that goes right at the top, something like a screenshot taken during a mech vs bio battle where the bio is getting destroyed would be good.
Ah, maybe I have something for you: one, two, three.
For interesting replays, @IPL5 there was Bomber vs Polt (games 1 & 3, on EV and Daybreak, mech vs biomech both games) and Bomber vs TheStC (EV, mech vs mech). Don't remember all games at this tournament so there are surely more.
On December 14 2012 03:15 kollin wrote: Thanks, I'll be sure to check those out. How often do you generally go mech Dwf?
Maybe half my games or more in TvT/Z (though I'm awful at meching in mirror and I feel mech relies too much on damage dealt with Hellions and/or Banshees in TvZ).
For streaming resources, FXOTheBest. and FXOasd regularly play mech against T/Z (links below).
For VODs, when those from Ritmix RSL III from today will be ready, there will be a GuMiho vs Scarlett game on Whirlwind (game 3) featuring mech play. Classic Hellion/Banshee → third → double Armory build; GuMiho killed lot of Drones early game (40) and ended the game with his pre-BL timing—even though Zerg's death animation was still triggering after this, game was essentially over as Scarlett had lost her fourth and had not enough resources to make more than 2 Broodlords because GuMiho's timing had forced lot of Roaches.
Thanks for pointing the our zhurai, the link has been removed. Larse I'll include those when I can watch them, just so I can describe them in the way I like to.
On December 14 2012 17:50 CroWTV wrote: Does anyone here know how to deal with mass carrier in hots? I guess HSM wont work since they dont do splash anymore T.T
vikings and ghost, emp carriers and then focus fire.
I loved how BaBy played a drop-style siege heavy mech against Symbol (TvZ) this week. Amazing play from BaBy that picked one of the strongest Zergs apart:
OP updated with Sea vs Genius and Baby vs Symbol. I didn't include game 1 of Sea vs Genius because I didn't feel like it was proper mech, because the game ended so quickly. It would be great if you guys could help me find some mech TvT games that a) Don't have some weird opening such as proxy reaper b) Aren't on Caldeum because you are usually forced to go Reaper's Thanks!
Here's some TvP mech wins I collected today, liquidSea style. (Note idk why drop.sc is saying they're in gold, but they're all in masters fyi)
http://drop.sc/284754 Good game where I manage to do nothing fancy besides solid play, didn't get any massive probe kills just sharked around with helions and outmacroed my opponents. I immediately build a barracks wall around my 3 bases (antiga) after I suicide my helions (had excess mins). They were pretty effective when he went in for the attack. I win when he gets antsy and tries to kill my ninja expo (not really ninja, more like ...trap expo) with a big army.
http://drop.sc/284753 Interesting game on daybreak, again solid macro game where I don't really get any free probe kills, but still outmacro my opponent because of my map control and proactive expansion checking. Poor defense allows a lot of helions to run around and severly damage his macro, he goes for an all out attack where I barely hold.
http://drop.sc/284752 Awesome game on Ohana, Very close engagements, had he had more intel and kept on pushing I probably would've lost. However, I botched up my Raven micro in the first place that led to me losing way more than I should. Shows some special tactics (observer snipe with 2 vikings then let 3 banshees go to town on immortals). Also Engi Bay placements on side expansions save my ass. Also, I win this game when he decides to take the bait, my PF expansion right underneath my main, I cut off retreat path and he fights a rigged engagement.
On December 16 2012 18:43 kollin wrote: Thanks, I don't think I'll include it then, as I only really want Grandmaster or at least very high Master replay packs.
I think you should include them but put them with titles relevant to the league the person is in.
Most people who read this thread let alone this forum won't be grandmaster or even very high masters and their games differ extremely compared to other peoples. The higher up you watch the build order you can learn for sure, but a diamond player for example needs to react completely differently to something that happens to a grandmaster player for example as all the timings are completely different.
I'd say it's just as important for someone diamond to study games at just above his level as well as at the highest level. Same goes for Plat looking at Diamond games and so on.
I know for example in WoL when I fell back to Gold after a massive long break I had and had to fight my way back up the ladder to diamond, every single game was completely different when I was playing Gold and Plat players, there was so much weird stuff and so many odd timings that shouldn't work, but they do at that level.
On December 16 2012 18:43 kollin wrote: Thanks, I don't think I'll include it then, as I only really want Grandmaster or at least very high Master replay packs.
I think you should include them but put them with titles relevant to the league the person is in.
Most people who read this thread let alone this forum won't be grandmaster or even very high masters and their games differ extremely compared to other peoples. The higher up you watch the build order you can learn for sure, but a diamond player for example needs to react completely differently to something that happens to a grandmaster player for example as all the timings are completely different.
I'd say it's just as important for someone diamond to study games at just above his level as well as at the highest level. Same goes for Plat looking at Diamond games and so on.
I know for example in WoL when I fell back to Gold after a massive long break I had and had to fight my way back up the ladder to diamond, every single game was completely different when I was playing Gold and Plat players, there was so much weird stuff and so many odd timings that shouldn't work, but they do at that level.
I understand your point, but I don't think you should be studying player's games that are your level. Even with the weird timings, at a non Grandmaster level you should be able to hold them with pure macro and scouting. I really want the replay section to just be for very high level games, similar to what the VOD section will become when we have more recent VODs available to us.
If anyone has any TvT mech vods that are at a pretty high level it would be great to link them here! Weirdly, that's the only matchup we're lacking in ^^
On December 18 2012 02:02 Nightmarjoo wrote: It's cuz tvt is always scrappy and messy. There's no such thing as a clean tvt, even less so when you add mech to the equation.
It's just it seems also every single Terran in Proleague enjoys proxy reapering every TvT T_T
No sorry, it's rare enough to find a game with mech and ghosts normally, never mind against mass infestors. Tanks with detection usually deal with infestors fine though.
I'm not going through them to find a specific example, but I always emply Ghosts in lategame tvz, and frequently zergs like to rely on the crutch that is mass infestors really lategame; so consider looking at my replay packs.
Tanks aren't reliable vs infestors lategame, or at all really against mass infestor. They're just a decent defensive deterrent during the midgame. Not to mention they're much less cost efficient than ghosts as anti-infestor units; and lategame they become increasingly less useful overall. Ultralisks, Broodlords, and mass burrowed infestors all destroy tanks easily. As defensive options they're only competetive lategame against heavy roach play, and zergs don't mass roach lategame because they suck at that point in the game. Hellion/PF is better as ling-defense, thors are infinitely more useful against broodlords, and are also better against ultralisks (strike cannons or well-positioned defensive targetting). Ghosts have wonderful utility beyond their function of nullifying the infestor threat (as if that wasn't good enough in and of itself).
On December 17 2012 04:17 kollin wrote: If anyone has any TvT mech vods that are at a pretty high level it would be great to link them here! Weirdly, that's the only matchup we're lacking in ^^
On January 17 2013 09:57 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not going through them to find a specific example, but I always emply Ghosts in lategame tvz, and frequently zergs like to rely on the crutch that is mass infestors really lategame; so consider looking at my replay packs.
Tanks aren't reliable vs infestors lategame, or at all really against mass infestor. They're just a decent defensive deterrent during the midgame. Not to mention they're much less cost efficient than ghosts as anti-infestor units; and lategame they become increasingly less useful overall.
I really disagree. Tanks remain useful throughout the game, even against Broodlords, precisely because they can deal with Infestors (and Queens); since their 13 range is unmatched they're actually the only ground unit able to kill Infestors beneath or slightly behind Broodlords (Ghosts can't touch Infestors protected by Broodlords and Overseers, they get blocked by Broodlings and die), not to mention splash damage is the only way to deal with Infested Terrans. Hellions help a bit in this department but you can't exactly afford to have 20 of them supply-wise.
While sieged Tanks are rather awful against Ultralisks, Ultralisks should come along with Zerglings and Infestors, and Tanks are good against those (BFH can deal with Zerglings but they can't blast Infestors from afar); besides, you can leave them unsieged if necessary, i. e. if Zerg has mostly Ultralisks for one reason or another.
If your Tanks get destroyed by burrow play your problem is not Tanks but lack of detection (I always get a Raven above my mech army to prevent such tricks); or you don't have enough Tanks and thus you get submerged, so your problem is still not Tanks but on the contrary lack of Tanks.
Upgraded Thors are okayish when the Broodlord count is low, but as Zerg gets more and more Broodlords they become worse and worse, to such an extent they end up absolutely useless. I used to get 7-10 Thors to fight Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors but recently I have much more success keeping a healthy Tank count (15-20) and going mass Vikings/Ravens with only 2-3 Thors to help a bit against Corruptors and soak up damage; Tanks and Vikings guard each other against Broodlords and Infestors. Thors are good against Ultralisks but if you don't have Tanks to kill Infestors he can just use Neural Parasite on your Thors.
On January 17 2013 09:57 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not going through them to find a specific example, but I always emply Ghosts in lategame tvz, and frequently zergs like to rely on the crutch that is mass infestors really lategame; so consider looking at my replay packs.
Tanks aren't reliable vs infestors lategame, or at all really against mass infestor. They're just a decent defensive deterrent during the midgame. Not to mention they're much less cost efficient than ghosts as anti-infestor units; and lategame they become increasingly less useful overall.
I really disagree. Tanks remain useful throughout the game, even against Broodlords, precisely because they can deal with Infestors (and Queens); since their 13 range is unmatched they're actually the only ground unit able to kill Infestors beneath or slightly behind Broodlords (Ghosts can't touch Infestors protected by Broodlords and Overseers, they get blocked by Broodlings and die), not to mention splash damage is the only way to deal with Infested Terrans. Hellions help a bit in this department but you can't exactly afford to have 20 of them supply-wise.
While sieged Tanks are rather awful against Ultralisks, Ultralisks should come along with Zerglings and Infestors, and Tanks are good against those (BFH can deal with Zerglings but they can't blast Infestors from afar); besides, you can leave them unsieged if necessary, i. e. if Zerg has mostly Ultralisks for one reason or another.
If your Tanks get destroyed by burrow play your problem is not Tanks but lack of detection (I always get a Raven above my mech army to prevent such tricks); or you don't have enough Tanks and thus you get submerged, so your problem is still not Tanks but on the contrary lack of Tanks.
Upgraded Thors are okayish when the Broodlord count is low, but as Zerg gets more and more Broodlords they become worse and worse, to such an extent they end up absolutely useless. I used to get 7-10 Thors to fight Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors but recently I have much more success keeping a healthy Tank count (15-20) and going mass Vikings/Ravens with only 2-3 Thors to help a bit against Corruptors and soak up damage; Tanks and Vikings guard each other against Broodlords and Infestors. Thors are good against Ultralisks but if you don't have Tanks to kill Infestors he can just use Neural Parasite on your Thors.
This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build.
On January 18 2013 08:44 gillon wrote: This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build.
How do you usually open?
This post (second part) should answer your question.
On January 18 2013 08:44 gillon wrote: This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build.
How do you usually open?
This post (second part) should answer your question.
Yeah, thanks, I actually ended up finding it through your history before your response and read through it, sounds good.
On a somewhat unrelated note, when doing your standard hellion banshee opener - do you prefer the CC first or 1 rax FE version and is there a particular reason?
On January 18 2013 08:44 gillon wrote: This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build.
How do you usually open?
This post (second part) should answer your question.
Yeah, thanks, I actually ended up finding it through your history before your response and read through it, sounds good.
On a somewhat unrelated note, when doing your standard hellion banshee opener - do you prefer the CC first or 1 rax FE version and is there a particular reason?
The 1 rax FE version, for two reasons: - you can have 3 or 4 Marines in your Bunker while you can have only 2 for a while with CC rax gas, and dealing with 7+ Roaches pressure (or 25+ Speedlings pressure) with only 2 Marines in the Bunker is really horrible; - slightly earlier Hellions.
On January 18 2013 08:44 gillon wrote: This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build.
How do you usually open?
This post (second part) should answer your question.
Yeah, thanks, I actually ended up finding it through your history before your response and read through it, sounds good.
On a somewhat unrelated note, when doing your standard hellion banshee opener - do you prefer the CC first or 1 rax FE version and is there a particular reason?
The 1 rax FE version, for two reasons: - you can have 3 or 4 Marines in your Bunker while you can have only 2 for a while with CC rax gas, and dealing with 7+ Roaches pressure (or 25+ Speedlings pressure) with only 2 Marines in the Bunker is really horrible; - slightly earlier Hellions.
What order do you usually do with gases/2nd depot? I usually do 1 marine, CC, 2nd depot, double gas and then resume marine production.
On January 18 2013 08:44 gillon wrote: This is how I usually mech as well, however, recently I'm having problems with my openers. I find that people are doing 2 base allins (like the one goswser did versus Mvp in Ironsquid) that completely wreck my standard opener. I'm talking about the standard hellion banshee, 3rd CC, double armory, 2 facts etc. build.
How do you usually open?
This post (second part) should answer your question.
Yeah, thanks, I actually ended up finding it through your history before your response and read through it, sounds good.
On a somewhat unrelated note, when doing your standard hellion banshee opener - do you prefer the CC first or 1 rax FE version and is there a particular reason?
The 1 rax FE version, for two reasons: - you can have 3 or 4 Marines in your Bunker while you can have only 2 for a while with CC rax gas, and dealing with 7+ Roaches pressure (or 25+ Speedlings pressure) with only 2 Marines in the Bunker is really horrible; - slightly earlier Hellions.
What order do you usually do with gases/2nd depot? I usually do 1 marine, CC, 2nd depot, double gas and then resume marine production.
Usually Marine CC gas SCV gas depot SCV Marine etc. with my SCV building a Bunker after the second Depot is complete (usually I don't SCV scout on 2-players maps); sometimes I use the second depot before dual gas variation.
On January 18 2013 10:28 KAB00000000M wrote: Is it more effective with blue frame drop or just fast 4 hellion + medivac drop? Which one hits earlier / do more dmg?
What do you guys prefer?
Non BF drop hits earlier and is usually the preferred way of doing it, since earlier worker kills is more significant worker kills.
On January 18 2013 21:37 KAB00000000M wrote: I have seen a lot of replays. Especially TvZ. I would say cc first into siege tank + siege mode is a pretty safe opening.
But is it a better idea to get hellions out before the siege tank?
Yes. While you're really safe with a tank opening, it leaves the zerg to do whatever he wants because you can't threaten anything.
On January 18 2013 21:37 KAB00000000M wrote: I have seen a lot of replays. Especially TvZ. I would say cc first into siege tank + siege mode is a pretty safe opening.
But is it a better idea to get hellions out before the siege tank?
Yes. While you're really safe with a tank opening, it leaves the zerg to do whatever he wants because you can't threaten anything.
Ok. But if the enemy is going 2 base roach all in. Will the fast tank siege mode be safer?
Do you know where I am going with this? I feel there is no time to react if you go hellion first. And realize that he is going 2 base all in. Because it comes pretty fast. I have this dilemma every TvZ game. I don't feel I have control of the game.
CC first into siege tanks is fine if you plan on using a passive banshee-less style; but since you are giving zerg a lot of freedom you have to know your attack windows really well. Cloaked banshee or 2fact with blueflame give you slower expos, but more map presence. Although, I don't know how exactly you'd adapt a siege opening against 2base lair; probably just add 2nd fact and get an armory asap.
On January 20 2013 02:05 Nightmarjoo wrote: CC first into siege tanks is fine if you plan on using a passive banshee-less style; but since you are giving zerg a lot of freedom you have to know your attack windows really well. Cloaked banshee or 2fact with blueflame give you slower expos, but more map presence. Although, I don't know how exactly you'd adapt a siege opening against 2base lair; probably just add 2nd fact and get an armory asap.
Yeah the problem is that I feel the zerg go 2 base all in if I hellion open. Or macro when I siege tech expand.
By the way. I tried to watch some of the mech replays. TvZ. But the replay was all purple/pink in color. Impossible to watch. Do you know how to fix this?
Is it possible to ask for a hellion drop build order? (without blue flame) including expand before or after the drop.
You just have to scout their gas timing. Your scv scout should be in their main by around 3:00 to check their build. If they show you gas before your scv leaves you probably shouldn't banshee (2fact or siege instead). Scan at 6:30 to see if they're going lair, all-in tech, or just speedling (even if they didn't show your scv gas). If their gas is fast enough you need to move a scv and put it on hold at the front of your nat (I forget the exact timing, but, maybe 30 seconds before your hellions finish) to give you vision of a speedling all-in if that's what they elect. Having the extra vision gives you the time to move your scvs to your bunker to surround it to defend. If they're going roach all-in and you elected to open hellion something (hellion banshee or 2fact) just make a couple marauders with the techlab while it's on your rax, and have the other building make its own techlab. Low-tech all-ins should be cake, because you can harass and expo easily after you defend them. It's 2base lair builds which can be tough to defend, because they can expo while pressuring you, and to defend you have to give up some of your map control, which can make it hard to expo at the same time. But if you go 2fact against them (which I recommend) you can defend while applying some pressure with a few blueflame hellions.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: You just have to scout their gas timing. Your scv scout should be in their main by around 3:00 to check their build. If they show you gas before your scv leaves you probably shouldn't banshee (2fact or siege instead). Scan at 6:30 to see if they're going lair, all-in tech, or just speedling (even if they didn't show your scv gas). If their gas is fast enough you need to move a scv and put it on hold at the front of your nat (I forget the exact timing, but, maybe 30 seconds before your hellions finish) to give you vision of a speedling all-in if that's what they elect. Having the extra vision gives you the time to move your scvs to your bunker to surround it to defend. If they're going roach all-in and you elected to open hellion something (hellion banshee or 2fact) just make a couple marauders with the techlab while it's on your rax, and have the other building make its own techlab. Low-tech all-ins should be cake, because you can harass and expo easily after you defend them. It's 2base lair builds which can be tough to defend, because they can expo while pressuring you, and to defend you have to give up some of your map control, which can make it hard to expo at the same time. But if you go 2fact against them (which I recommend) you can defend while applying some pressure with a few blueflame hellions.
Hey guys if anyone would want to see some TvP mech replays, with a really cool opener, here you go! Its gas first into double expand, it punishes 1G FE pretty nicely.
Vs 1g FE on Cloud kingdom. He does the fast 2 base blink build that's supposedly stomps mech players. I hold it off with a combination of frantic micro and him getting apprehensive because he can't lose the observer, so he thinks I have more defenses in my natural than whats actually there.
This replay really shows the power of doing a double expand from a gas first opening. Even though I lose so many SCVS, I actually float over 1000 minerals during the bulk of the harass! And again, to any people who say mech is too harassable, just watch as I stabilize. He keeps trying to harass me, and I send my hellions right into his bases. I repeat this cycle and eventually weasel my way back into the game. He does a miscalculation (very common for people who don't face mech very often) and loses his entire army with me having 4 tanks left and some hellions. I deny his fourth, kill some more probes, then I'm able to finish the game. Insane game where both of us are at 200 APM for the whole game.
Vs 1g FE on Daybreak. He does the standard 3g into robo followup from an expand. I harass him with hellions and banshees. Also note that he kept a lot of his probes inside his main until he had enough stalkers. But I still do quite a bit of economic damage with this build, and I am able to get away with a double expand BECAUSE I saw how defensive he was getting. He was even keeping multiple obs with his units even though I didn't have cloak. I still trust my gut and don't reveal my expansion until I have a large enough army size + siege mode. He tries to feign an attack, but I simply run my hellions in from the third when my watchtower hellion sees his army moving out. That move solidified my win, I hold off various attacks and end the game with tank mode a-move lol.
On January 20 2013 05:35 kollin wrote: I can't watch the replays right this minute, but gas first into double expo seems like you would just get fucked by any aggressive opener.
THey can't 4gate because my scv stays in their base for too long, and will see it coming a mile away. If they have 2 gas, first 2 hellions go straight to their base. I know right away if they are cheesing (2 gas + missing pylon from first scout + only 1 stalker + a bunch of probe kills while they proxy their stargate.)
Here's me beating a void-ray response played yesterday
dark templar is even easier, i already have starport and techlab, and supply depot wall. proxy robo is a little trickier, but I have way more time to scout it (compared to voids) and can deal with it accordingly. IMO the best protoss response is a 3G robo. That way I can't expand until much later, and I'm forced to go 1 base vs 1 base (I basically transition into 1-1-1) and its just like TvP beta again.
On January 18 2013 21:37 KAB00000000M wrote: I have seen a lot of replays. Especially TvZ. I would say cc first into siege tank + siege mode is a pretty safe opening.
But is it a better idea to get hellions out before the siege tank?
Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible if you intend to go mech; triple OC defended by fast Tanks is dubious but possible with biomech for various reasons, but Hellions/Banshees is vastly superior for mech: Tanks are slow, expensive, provide no map control/presence, don't force anything from Zerg and delay your Armories and/or additional Factories. Hellions/Banshees can defend any pressure/all-in (even if you lose some SCVs) and, even more importantly, they allow you to strike back after Zerg fails, thus hindering his development and scouting his follow-up; if Zerg tries to pressure with, say, 8 Roaches and is welcomed by a sieged Tank shot, sure you take no damage but he just retreats and presses the D key for 3 minuts and you can't do anything about it (see example below) while you're left in the dark about his subsequent plan.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: You just have to scout their gas timing.
On August 19 2012 19:09 Bwall wrote: What do you look for when you scv-scout in TvZ(let's say it's a 2-player map, so we know where he spawned)? I can't really understand the gas timings, because sometimes people just go for a fast lingspeed to be safe, and with the same gas-timing it might be a 5-7 roach rush. The scout doesn't always survive long enough to see if he mines >100 gas, and the zerg could also pull off drones from gas for a few seconds to trick me. Zergs always open 15 hatch, and I don't go cc first so 3rd hatch before pool is out of the question.
You can really never know for sure if they are going speedling allin, speedling expo, ling/bane allin, roach timing, roach/ling allin, or roach/bane/ling. All you can really do note what is possible from the gas timing. i,e, if they get gas around when pool finishes, it will be something 7 mins +, while if they go gas pool, you have to account for a 1 or 0 queen 550 baneling bust or 630 40 ling runby. Another possibility, map dependent, is leave an scv in front of their ramp so you can have advance warning if units stream out.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: If they show you gas before your scv leaves you probably shouldn't banshee (2fact or siege instead).
Why? Hellions/Banshees can hold all the aforementioned attacks and allow you to take the initiative after his possible attack while Tanks are static and give Zerg free reign to drone unchallenged. See Polt vs viOLet, Entombed Valley, IPL5: viOLet goes for some Roach agression and is met with Hellions and a Tank; his push does nothing (killing 5 SCVs, not a big deal) but since he saw Polt's opening was passive, he drones at his heart's content and here was the result 2 minuts later. (Thanks to KawaiiRice for screenshots.)
And Polt had zero way to punish this. viOLet had scouted Polt's early third but it would be the same with a 2 Factories build anyway: no Terran is going to push on the map with 3 Tanks to punish… punish what anyway since you have no way to know what he's doing without Banshees to repel Roaches? At best you can drop 4 BFH as soon as possible but it's way less threatening than Hellions/Banshees pushing back as soon as the Roach agression is held.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: Scan at 6:30 to see if they're going lair, all-in tech, or just speedling (even if they didn't show your scv gas).
Early Scans are generally horrible, (a) because they weaken your economy and (b) because they're not even reliable: you don't know where he's making buildings and/or Lair. They may see everything, they may see nothing, they may see something… But what?
What is he doing? (2360 gas left in each geyser; I did not cut anything with the resizing, there was nothing else to be seen. And I do mean nothing.)
Some scans are more puzzling than helpful because they can be interpreted in entirely different ways, from an all-in to standard macro play.
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: If they're going roach all-in and you elected to open hellion something (hellion banshee or 2fact) just make a couple marauders with the techlab while it's on your rax, and have the other building make its own techlab.
Marauders are unnecessary when going Hellions/Banshees after the 1 rax FE variants since you have 3 (sometimes with the possibility to get a fourth in time) or 4 Marines in your Bunker. With CC rax gas one blind Marauder (before swapping Barracks and Starport) upon scouting gas is a possibility since otherwise you have only 2 Marines tickling Roaches, but you should start Banshees as soon as possible instead of making more Marauders (same problem as Tanks: Marauders defend but cannot counter/punish, plus they're useless with mech).
On January 20 2013 03:00 Nightmarjoo wrote: It's 2base lair builds which can be tough to defend, because they can expo while pressuring you, and to defend you have to give up some of your map control, which can make it hard to expo at the same time. But if you go 2fact against them (which I recommend) you can defend while applying some pressure with a few blueflame hellions.
What pressure? You can't apply pressure with BFH against Roaches; and even if he's too lazy to sacrifice an Overlord and thus scout your 2 Factories build, a simple wall is all it takes to nullify any BFH pressure. Hellions/Banshees is better, you can adapt your follow-up depending on what you scout without committing to early BFH (which shows your hand too fast on top of other drawbacks) or Tanks.
Well, that you don't like it doesn't mean it's inviable. Gumiho frequently uses this kind of opening.
Nope, you can't know
He said he was having trouble against all-ins using hellion openings. Stopping an all-in requires being knowledgeable of it (either specifically knowing what is coming or knowing what you can't rule out and must prepare for) and adapting properly. First step is checking whether or not he gases. Your scv scout does this one, and the 6:30 scan confirms. If he doesn't have gas at either timing then he isn't going all-in. If he does have gas a multitude of builds are possible, including all-ins. You can't guarantee to scout his 3rd base with your scv if he's not going all-in; and even if you are able to scout an absence of a 3rd base when he should have one if he wasn't going all-in it doesn't rule out the possibility that he either is going for a build which involves multiple simultaneous extractors before 3rd base (but still isn't all-in) or that he simply made his 3rd hatch in his main/nat. Thus you need more information.
If he showed you gas and didn't speedling all-in the 6:30 scan shows how much he mined from that extractor. The odds of zerg anticipating your scan and stopping at 100 gas mined on the one extractor in main while proceeding to take both nat extractors to deliberately hide their tech build are very fucking low. If he showed you no gas it's my experience that zergs are more likely to take their main extractor(s) first because they're less susceptible to lucky scv scouts. Furthermore if you are able to get an scv to their third at this time to confirm no expansion but your scan in main also sees no extractors you can extrapolate that gas in their nat is a distinct possibility. Slightly hurting your build to prepare for all-ins in this case won't give you a disadvantage since even if he elected to just get a 3rd hatch in his nat he's still delayed his actual expansion, and thus the gas income which makes useful units.
Marauders are unnecessary when going Hellions/Banshees after the 1 rax FE variants since you have 3 (sometimes with the possibility to get a fourth in time) or 4 Marines in your Bunker. With CC rax gas one blind Marauder (before swapping Barracks and Starport) upon scouting gas is a possibility since otherwise you have only 2 Marines tickling Roaches, but you should start Banshees as soon as possible instead of making more Marauders
Roach and baneling (not both together) all-ins hit before banshee is out, but most hit about the time your first Marauder finishes if you build it with your techlab and have the port make its own techlab. A second marauder further helps you defend in case zerg is rallying more roaches, and does not in the least bit delay your banshee. Cloak, yes, the Banshee, no. 30 seconds of free shots on your depots/repairing-scvs is accepting unnecessary damages that could be prevented by making the Marauder. A second will be more situational, but even if unnecessary isn't a big loss. Yes Marauders aren't reliable for counter aggression (not that they can't ever be used this way though), but your banshee isn't countering while it's cleaning up roaches in your base (which is a very slow process). Having both speeds this up if nothing else. Also we're talking about cc-first, so we don't have 4 marines, and our banshee is 10 seconds slower than that of a 1rax cc gasgas depot build. edit: Also you mention that Marauders are useless with mech, but that's not really true. MMA for example has used a marauder/mech build before.
Why? Hellions/Banshees can hold all the aforementioned attacks...
Yes Hellion/Banshee can hold lowtech aggression; those aren't what I'm worried about. They fare very poorly against fast 2base muta; which isn't to say that they can't defend it, because they absolutely can; but while defending muta they cannot stop zerg from taking his 3rd (before he starts the muta in fact) and also cannot simultaneously take their own 3rd; the end result being zerg having map control and a significant economic advantage.
What pressure? You can't apply pressure with BFH against Roaches
I may not have been clear, but again I have 2base muta in mind when I say this. A 2fact opening can much more easily make the thors necessary to defend muta (defend and also secure a 3rd base; turrets can help with the former but not the latter), and has the capacity to also make some hellions to apply some harassment/claim some map control while you are defending the mutas (or making him use his mutas on the wrong side of the map, giving you room/time to expand).
If you scout gas, you are aware that mutas are a possibility. The 6:30 scan can either explicitly scout 2base lair or fail to rule it out (especially with conjunction with an scv scout at their 3rd). Since hellion/banshee is bad against this (gives them free map control + 3rd) there's no reason to risk the possibility of effectively having a build order loss by going hellion/banshee against a gas opening. So if your scv scouts no gas feel free to hellion/banshee; and then the 6:30 scan lets you know whether or not you need to adapt the build against a lowtech all-in or 2base lair in the cases where he opted to get gas after your scv left (and of course moving your scv out of their base and then back in can frequently catch this attempt at misinformation unexpectedly). If you scout gas why use a build which is harder to adapt to the possibility of 2base muta than one which is not only easier, but has equal merit in the other possible scenarios to that of hellion/banshee (3base, lowtech all-in).
In general I agree with your account of why early scans are unreliable, with the exception of cc first into mech against zerg. The options zerg have that threaten you are inherently susceptible to being scouted at this timing because of their gas needs to employ them. Your screenshot doesn't show the whole picture. I don't mean that literally; I'm not saying you cropped it. There's more information I would have (and I would scan the main anyway) from what my initial and possibly secondary scv scout(s) saw, from my knowedge of the opponent, and of the map and from what I know my opponent is aware of. I agree that if you had literally only the information from that scan you would know very little, but that's impossible. For example your screenshot leaves out what's going on just in front of his nat which could be informative, whether or not he's taken a 3rd which could be informative (though I doubt he had done so in this particular game given his gas mined, though it actually isn't impossible). I also don't know whether or not my scv scout saw any gas in his main initially. However it seems likely to me that the absence of queens in his nat is not because he has 2 queens just outside his nat spreading creep, but that he did not in fact make more than two queens. Thus from his gas mined it seems likely to me that he is not doing a roach + bane all-in, but is doing something on 2base lair, most likely 2base muta since I'm assuming he's not spreading any creep (making a roach/bane build and a roach/queen/nydus build both less likely; the former because creep spread reinforcement, and the latter because even though nydus doesn't need creep spread he'd still be spreading creep with his extra queens). Since he has no tech in the nat I'm going to assume he also has gas in the main, because if he were trying to give you misinformation by having no gas in his main he would also have no tech in the main, but since we can see he has gas but not tech in his nat then he either has gas and tech in the main, or has expanded and is pooling gas for a wave of roach after making some drones for his 3rd (or is making roach now with his 3rd, and will make drones only after a wave of roach, which if I'm correct that he has no extra queens spreading creep outside your screenshot, is mineral-possible).
At anyrate I'm much less concerned with being tricked into being too safe and much more concerned with not dying. You're welcome to play differently if you'd like. My advice to him was not intended to be the holy grail of information on how to not lose early-game, but rather some basic steps he can employ to alleviate his problems. His problems are "[losing to] a 2base all-in if [he] goes hellion open", so I gave advice which I know from firsthand experience can help prevent losing to 2base all-ins given his opening (cc first) and style (mech).
I'm not sure what the point of your post is; you seem to be advocating blindly using builds which do have some vulnerabilities without making any attempt to scout or prepare for those possibilities. Hellion/Banshee is a wonderful opening which gives a strong economy, good map presence, harass potential, creep-spread-limiting-potential, and scale well into the rest of the game as they accumulate (becoming increasingly more useful as the zerg spreads out giving you more opportunities to exploit). However it is not the only such build to have such utility and efficacy, and if employed blindly as if in a vacuum does not inherently beat every possible build zerg can do; i.e. that it's a good build doesn't mean other builds aren't equally viable, and it isn't a perfect beat-all build. It however is a great build for practicing multi-tasking and learning mech by and I absolutely recommend it to those aspiring to use and improve in employing the mech style against zerg. However if he's having such a hard time with "hellion openings" that he's considering siege openings instead (which I still insist are viable, even if I do not personally use them or have much experience in using them for exactly the limitations that you described), then maybe he would be able to ease into hellion/banshee by first utilizing 2fact, which I maintain is safer in a vacuum considering all the possibilities zerg can throw at you, and may be easier for someone to learn mech by-- hence my advice.
I'm pretty sure he did it in gstl on atlantis vs I don't know who, for example. His opponent was not aggressive. It was during his 3kill or all-kill; something like that. He used the same build against another zerg in the same match if I remember correctly.
On January 21 2013 04:05 kollin wrote: Well you won't have siege or blue flame or many tanks before they can just pump out roaches, so yeah it's too late.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Well, that you don't like it doesn't mean it's inviable. Gumiho frequently uses this kind of opening.
Please don't cut a relevant part of the quote: Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible if you intend to go mech; triple OC defended by fast Tanks is dubious but possible with biomech for various reasons. I know GuMiho plays them sometimes, and Bomber too (systematically going Marines/Tanks afterwards); but simply because pros use the opening does not make it any less questionable, you have to examine the objective strengths/weaknesses of the build: pros frequently use suboptimal builds for various reasons. It's not about “me disliking them,” it's about what you get vs what you give up. Those builds had already been discussed in the Pro Terran Strategy Q/A thread so I'll just be lazy and quote Ver:
On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about.
Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1.
I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested.
Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit.
Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta.
The idea behind triple OC + Tanks → Marines/Tanks is that Tanks are able to protect your ambitious opening, i. e. fast third and fast dual upgrades, and you can't emulate this with mech (the fast third is of little use because mech is not able to use the extra minerals with Barracks + Marines, and early Tanks + dual Armory woud make the build as dynamic as a caterpillar tractor).
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Stopping an all-in requires being knowledgeable of it (either specifically knowing what is coming or knowing what you can't rule out and must prepare for) and adapting properly.
No, going 1 rax CC gas gas depot → Hellions/Banshees with no SCV scout I never had any problem holding Speedlings pressure/“all-in,” Roaches, Roaches/Speedlings, and of course Roaches + Baneling bust. That's the point, the build is tailored to hold any of those things without even needing to know beforehand if and when he took gas or which units he's making. CC rax gas is more vulnerable due to having only 2 Marines + slightly delayed Hellions, so if the problem is here he can just play 1 rax expand instead.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: If he showed you no gas it's my experience that zergs are more likely to take their main extractor(s) first because they're less susceptible to lucky scv scouts.
Yes, no, maybe. I have no statistical data about this; some Zergs will take their gas and make their tech buildings in the main, some will do the opposite, some will mix, so you're essentially rolling the dice. Regarding the SCV sacrifice issue you will not see anything in his natural with 2 Queens in front of his base anyway.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Also we're talking about cc-first, so we don't have 4 marines
Already adressed this point in the quote to which you answer.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Also you mention that Marauders are useless with mech, but that's not really true. MMA for example has used a marauder/mech build before.
Didn't see the games or don't remember them; I suppose you mean Hellions/Thors/Marauders? I don't call this mech, but anyway it's terrible; I had a period in which I played this, then I ran into a cleverer Zerg who bothered to research Neural Parasite, and I never ever made this mix again. Totally inferior to Tanks. (Just saying.)
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: I may not have been clear, but again I have 2base muta in mind when I say this. (1) A 2fact opening can much more easily make the thors necessary to defend muta (defend and also secure a 3rd base; turrets can help with the former but not the latter), (2) and has the capacity to also make some hellions to apply some harassment/claim some map control while you are defending the mutas (or making him use his mutas on the wrong side of the map, giving you room/time to expand).
(Added marks so I don't have to split the quote in two.) (1) Why? You're supposed to see a Spire before making Thors, or you can make them blindly if you're not able to rule out Mutalisks, but I don't see why an appropriate follow-up to Hellions/Banshees could not do that either. (2) And Hellions from a Hellions/Banshees opening somehow cannot do that? How so?
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: If you scout gas, you are aware that mutas are a possibility.
Mutalisks are a possibility whether he opens gas or gasless; the only thing a delayed dual gas build cannot do is a supersonic 4'30 Lair (which are bad and rare anyway), otherwise he can take dual gas after SCVs leaves his base and go ~5'00 to 5'30 Lair, or take dual gas at 5'10 and go 6'10 Lair, or take quad gas at once and go 6'30 to 7'00 Lair. Basically scouting gasless means you can rule out pre 5'00 Lairs and that's all. (Just saying.)
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: The 6:30 scan can either explicitly scout 2base lair or fail to rule it out (especially with conjunction with an scv scout at their 3rd). (1) Since hellion/banshee is bad against this (gives them free map control + 3rd) there's no reason to risk the possibility of effectively having a build order loss by going hellion/banshee against a gas opening. So if your scv scouts no gas feel free to hellion/banshee; and then the 6:30 scan lets you know whether or not you need to adapt the build against a lowtech all-in or 2base lair in the cases where he opted to get gas after your scv left (and of course moving your scv out of their base and then back in can frequently catch this attempt at misinformation unexpectedly). (2) If you scout gas why use a build which is harder to adapt to the possibility of 2base muta than one which is not only easier, but (3) has equal merit in the other possible scenarios to that of hellion/banshee (3base, lowtech all-in).
(1) What? When Mutalisks are out you have no map control anyway (you can have map presence with Hellions and even Banshees to some extent, but if he wants to chase them you'll have to retreat) regardless of the build you use, what possible difference could a 2 Factories build make regarding this point? Zerg can always take a third, again what possible difference could a 2 Factories build make regarding this point?
Hellions/Banshees, risk of build order loss against a gas opening? Please. As I'm constantly repeating these days if you die to 2-bases Lair your problem does not lie in Hellions/Banshees but (a) in your (lack of) scouting and/or (b) an inadequate follow-up. It's like saying 1 rax expand dies to 2-bases Colossi all-ins in TvP when in truth your problem was that you built your third out of 3 rax and went dual Reactor on your Barracks; the problem is not the core of the build order but the branch you chose after.
You seem to misunderstand what Hellions/Banshees is; it does not mean being forced to continuously produce Hellions and Banshees nor does it even mean being forced to get Cloak, so there is a lot of flexibility depending on what you scout, therefore you can adapt your follow-up to the information collected by Hellions and your Banshee(s): for instance against 2-bases Mutalisks you can skip Cloak, cut Banshee production and go either CC fact fact armory or CC armory fact fact and your Thors will be out in time (or nearly so and Turrets cover your base), and you won't have any extra particular trouble to secure your third.
If Zerg played a supersonic (pre 5'30) Lair and your additional Factories are not yet ready, you just swap Factory with Starport and get 2 Vikings while your Armory is in construction, with a few Turrets it should be enough to hold his weak initial Mutalisk wave: even a 4'30 Lair cannot get Mutalisks in your base before ~8'30 so you have ample time to react since your first Hellions can scout his lack of third then his suspiciously empty (or a surprisingly hasty wall with a Spine) natural's front at ~6'45. Not mech-related but see Polt vs Golden, Cloud Kingdom, NASL4: Polt's first Hellions were late, he didn't even see Mutalisks before they hatched and still he was able to defend them.
(2) Nope it's not harder to adapt, it comes down to scouting and in this regard Hellions/Banshees is superior (because you have an air unit earlier, so you can fly around/over his bases, and you can still scan if you feel it's too dark). Isn't there a Bogus vs HyuN game (the third), Bel'shir Vestige, which exemplifies this? Can't remember for sure if it was 2- or 3-bases Mutalisks but I think Bogus opened with 2 Factories BFH, failed to scout or prepare for Mutalisks in time and died anyway, so it's not a matter of core build order. Both Hellions/Banshees and 2 Factories can handle 2-bases Mutalisks with proper scouting and deviations.
(3) On the other hand adapting to Roach agression with 2 Factories is harder because you need to deviate (the original plan with this build is a mass BFH attack, if you get Tanks anyway regardless of what your opponent is doing you're playing overly safe), and thus have intel, and you may not have said intel in time. (See below.)
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Your screenshot doesn't show the whole picture. I don't mean that literally; I'm not saying you cropped it. There's more information I would have (and I would scan the main anyway) from what my initial and possibly secondary scv scout(s) saw, from my knowedge of the opponent, and of the map and from what I know my opponent is aware of.
True. But my point was that sometimes, you will not be able to know for sure since some build orders can look identical while requiring opposite reactions, so you will be forced to roll the dice.
For the story:
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: Thus from his gas mined it seems likely to me that he is not doing a roach + bane all-in
That's precisely what he was doing (Bomber vs Symbol, Ohana, IPL5). To be totally fair you would have probably known with a SCV noticing lack of third and your 6'30 scan in the main; Symbol had opened gasless by the way.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: At anyrate I'm much less concerned with being tricked into being too safe and much more concerned with not dying.
Sadly that's the same thing against Zerg, the only difference being that your death animation takes longer to complete in the first case; if you're overly safe while Zerg develops at top speed you fall behind, and if you fall behind you lose due to Zerg being Zerg. Not mech-related but see Bomber vs Bly, Entombed Valley, IEM GamesCom: after the opening Bomber is convincingly ahead but he fears some kind of agressive follow-up, plays overly safe and thus Bly simply catches up and has the right to play a 50 minuts macro game despite initially losing his Hatchery to a non-committed 12/12. Now imagine the same kind of scenario with both players being equal in skill and set on equal footing before Terrans enters the “overly safe” phase and you can easily figure what is bound to happen. Playing too safe while it's not required is a bad thing, otherwise 2gR expands would be standard in PvT.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm not sure what the point of your post is; you seem to be advocating blindly using builds which do have some vulnerabilities without making any attempt to scout or prepare for those possibilities.
Hence the second part of this post probably: the epitome of blind, non-reactive play for sure.
The point of my post? Quite straightforward: why are you advocating inferior builds with clear coinflip issues when Hellions/Banshees can defend anything (i. e. tier1 agression, tier2 agression is a matter of transition) without requiring a PhD in Zerg hermeneutics, has a stronger economy, a better initiative and is not punishable?
Just look at the following comparison and tell me, where does 2 Factories shine? (By the way, to me 2 Factories = Reactor Hellion → second Factory with Tech Lab → 6'50 Starport if not pressured, e. g. the build order Mvp used in his first game vs Life; please precise if you mean something else so we don't misunderstand each other because we talk about different build orders.)
(Best economy because of earlier third.)
In short 2 fact BFH may be marginally better to metagame an opponent going Speedlings → third (which is why Mvp used it against Life since he often plays this way) without sacrificing an Overlord and that's all; against everything else it's worse/slower/coinflippy.
On January 20 2013 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: However if he's having such a hard time with "hellion openings" that he's considering siege openings instead (which I still insist are viable, even if I do not personally use them or have much experience in using them for exactly the limitations that you described), then maybe he would be able to ease into hellion/banshee by first utilizing 2fact, which I maintain is safer in a vacuum considering all the possibilities zerg can throw at you, and may be easier for someone to learn mech by-- hence my advice
Is he using the safest one (1 rax CC gas gas depot) instead of the more ambitious and therefore more vulnerable CC rax gas? Is he executing those Hellions openings correctly? Last time someone asked for another build order to defend Roaches/Speedlings his Bunker was naked one screen ahead of his natural, he was lacking 10+ SCVs and had 0 Hellion by the time Zerg attacked, plus his Banshee was not even started, so the problem was obviously not the build order itself but the execution. This is something worth checking before recommending alternative build orders, especially below Master level.
Teching Tanks straight away in TvZ is horrible if you intend to go mech
In the games I'm talking about, Gumiho is going mech! Why is this so hard to believe? In one particular gstl match where he all-killed he used this build on atlantis and won; and then used the same build against another zerg in the same match and won again.
No, going 1 rax CC gas gas depot...
We are discussing CC first here, not 1rax CC!
CC rax gas is more vulnerable due to having only 2 Marines + slightly delayed Hellions, so if the problem is here he can just play 1 rax expand instead
Or... he can continue to use the build which has a very significant economic advantage to 1rax cc (faster 3rd and higher scv count or faster banshee, depending on the gas timing after 1rax cc) and simply heed my advice which is tailored to this build, NOT 1rax cc!
Regarding the SCV sacrifice issue
What sacrifice? If your scv is in his main by 3:00 (which is when I recommended) you can scout everything, leave, and then dip right back in and get out before queens are up yet, baiting him to gas the moment you leave.
(1) Why? You're supposed to see a Spire before making Thors, or you can make them blindly if you're not able to rule out Mutalisks, but I don't see why an appropriate follow-up to Hellions/Banshees could not do that either. (2) And Hellions from a Hellions/Banshees opening somehow cannot do that? How so?
What? Propose how you can possibly see a spire in time to adapt if you find out he went 2base mutalisk is when your banshee arrives (which should arrive shortly before his mutalisks hatch) if you aren't scanning at 6:30 (which is when your port is ~50% done). With CC first you afford 3rd cc right after you get banshee and cloak (if you elect to get cloak); your build is going to be severely compromised if you only find out some 30 seconds after you start 3rd cc that he has mutalisks on the way. If you find out he's going mutalisk with your banshee you at best can maybe get turrets up in-time, which will delay your armory and thor production greatly-- making securing a 3rd impossible for a long period of time. In what universe is that a preferable scenario to the one I describe where we scout on-time and adapt in the optimal manner?
Mutalisks are a possibility whether he opens gas or gasless; the only thing a delayed dual gas build cannot do is a supersonic 4'30 Lair (which are bad and rare anyway), otherwise he can take dual gas after SCVs leaves his base and go ~5'00 to 5'30 Lair, or take dual gas at 5'10 and go 6'10 Lair, or take quad gas at once and go 6'30 to 7'00 Lair. Basically scouting gasless means you can rule out pre 5'00 Lairs and that's all. (Just saying.)
And the 6:30 scan confirms/denies the possibility of 2base muta.
...what possible difference could a 2 Factories build make regarding this point?
The difference is, instead of having a starport whose only value is in making addons and possibly a banshee you cannot get any utility out of for most of the game in addition; you have a second factory with a techlab on it to get blueflame while you make your armory and can begin 2thor production to defend the mutas (AND secure your 3rd, which 1fact thor production can't as effectively do) sooner than you could than if you had wasted money on your port. The difference is you have blueflame hellions instead of regular hellions, so the small number you have after switching to thor production are more effective if you can get them around his mutalisks.
Hellions/Banshees, risk of build order loss against a gas opening? Please. As I'm constantly repeating these days if you die to 2-bases Lair your problem does not lie in Hellions/Banshees but (a) in your (lack of) scouting and/or (b) an inadequate follow-up.
I am advising you to scout and and adapt appropriately and in a timely manner. You on the other hand appear to be advising not scouting and not adapting until the last possible second, guaranteeing your opponent to have the upper hand. The scenario I'm concerned about is hellion/banshee vs 2base muta. All other possibilities are easily handled by hellion/banshee-- I've stated this already. The scenario with hellion/banshee vs 2base muta is one where they can start their 3rd hatch right before they start mutalisk production which you cannot in the least contest because of their impending mutalisks. Furthermore you cannot expand yourself at this time because you're making an armory, thors, and possibly also turrets. This means you cannot take your third until you have the anti-air capacity to defend 3 bases (which is more than 3 spots-- thor range is not THAT long). With a slower 3rd base your economy and production capacity are relatively poor, making contesting his 4th base very difficult, if not impossible, as well. This means he has map control, an economic advantage, and you are stuck in a defensive posture. In my experience this always leads to a scenario where I cannot possibly defend his second hive-max because he simply has more money. Hence instead of risking this scenario as a possibility, I am advising adapting your build preemptively by going 2fact instead of banshee. This accomplishes having faster thor production which enables you to secure your 3rd much earlier, while also giving you potential harass-potential in the form of blueflame hellions. You don't even have to make the blueflame early if you don't want to. Remember 2nd fact, armory, and thors delay your cc relative to the normal timing. So if you already have your 2nd fact by the time you scout mutalisks you have 2 thors out 120 seconds later. Your thor timing is such that you don't need turrets to merely defend 2base (while you're making 3rd cc), which means if you don't get blueflame your 3rd cc is at least 500 minerals earlier (port, banshee, 2turrets), which means you can easily take it the moment you have 4 thors (180 seconds after scouting mutalisk), since his unit accumulation will be worse than if you'd delayed your cc with the port build.
you just swap Factory with Starport and get 2 Vikings while your Armory is in construction, with a few Turrets it should be enough to hold his weak initial Mutalisk
A valid point, but a scenario I'd rather avoid since thors are more useful early on-- I'm trying to be as efficient as possible.
it comes down to scouting and in this regard Hellions/Banshees is superior (because you have an air unit earlier, so you can fly around/over his bases, and you can still scan if you feel it's too dark
An air unit that in the scenario I'm concerned about is unlikely to be useful again, if it even makes it home alive, for a very long time. I'd rather not waste the time and money on it-- again focusing on being efficient.
On the other hand adapting to Roach agression with 2 Factories is harder because you need to deviate (the original plan with this build is a mass BFH attack, if you get Tanks anyway regardless of what your opponent is doing you're playing overly safe), and thus have intel, and you may not have said intel in time
Remember, with the way I'm playing I'm making a Marauder if I know/suspect roach on the rax, and having the 2nd building (port or fact) make its own techlab. So that doesn't pose a threat to what I'm advising. You only have blueflame and excess hellions if you don't do the 6:30 scan.
Sadly that's the same thing against Zerg, the only difference being that your death animation takes longer to complete in the first case; if you're overly safe while Zerg develops at top speed you fall behind, and if you fall behind you lose due to Zerg being Zerg.
I think mech's efficiency combined with good control of the ghost/thor I'm advising making in conjunction with smart decision making can overcome such a defecit should it happen. I'm not surprised what I describe wouldn't be the case with tank/viking oriented compositions though; since you have less gas and supply for useful and efficient lategame units such as ghosts and ravens.
The rest of your post suggests there have been some miscommunications between us. I am only describing CC first, I am only describing the scenarios where terran scans at 6:30 and makes a marauder if roach can't be ruled out, and am only concerned about 2base muta. I absolutely agree that tier1 aggression is easily stamped out by hellion/banshee (though you lose more scvs if you don't make the marauder vs roach; not a trade I'm okay with). Your proposed adaptations against mutalisk appear valid, but I'm not convinced they're optimal. I maintain at the moment that what I describe will come out ahead in the specific scenario I'm concerned than would a terran employing your proposed adaptations; but I also believe that 2fact does not have the weaknesses that you state. I'm not even advising never making banshees; I'm simply advising against them against gas openings where 2base muta is likely until after you make your 3rd cc. Banshees do wonders at limiting zerg's expansion attempts in a way that banshee-less doesn't come close. Except when zerg has mutalisks out on the map-- having and lacking banshees comes out the same. As far as economy goes I don't see how a 2fact opening is any different from a banshee opening. Instead of port, banshee, cloak, you're getting fact, blueflame, and a couple hellions prior to starting 3rd cc. If you want even more harass potential you can add a port and get a medic the way MVP did vs Life (against fast 3base zerg). As for your chart: after you defend his roaches easily with your hellions + a couple marauders you can harass his drones with hellions if he has not made a ton of roaches. If he has, then he hasn't made as many drones; and even a banshee build would be concerned with the roaches than with harassing drones in that case. I'm not sure how you think zerg is going to take advantage of your build after scouting it; you can easily adapt to whatever he does unless he's 3hatch on 2base, in which case it doesn't even matter. If you do have to adapt the build by getting tank and siege to hold an all-in, then you easily have the capacity to secure expansions at an aggressive rate; no loss there. If you hold a roach/bane all-in his expo is slow and he has no means with which to stop you from expoing afterwards (somewhat map dependant). So again: I'm not trying to bash hellion/banshee at all; it's by far my favourite build in tvz and does amazingly against the vast majority of possibilities-- with the exception of 2base muta, which was becoming increasingly more common in my experience. So again remember I'm giving advice to someone who said they were using CC first and losing to 2base builds. So I gave advice for dealing with 2base builds with CC first. I don't know what his problems are since he was vague.
Is he using the safest one (1 rax CC gas gas depot) instead of the more ambitious and therefore more vulnerable CC rax gas? Is he executing those Hellions openings correctly?
Again, CC first. My advice is focused on those vulnerabilities. Is he executing the openings correctly? No clue; I'm not helping him with the execution, only with a tit-for-tat theoretical action/reaction scheme over a few possible scenarios. You can see his posts too. I dunno what his problems are; could easily be execution as you describe.
I think overall we don't disagree on much here, just on some little things; which probably neither of us are capable of convincing the other about.
On January 23 2013 03:58 gillon wrote: I usually just do 2 blind thors because I have a hard time reading mutas from 3 hatch zerg, any tips on how to see it coming before that point?
Check gases, lair timing, and how many drones he has. Obviously, lower drones, earlier gas, lair are hints at mutas. You can also consider how many roaches he's made, which will delay his muta timing (or at least reduce the muta count from 10 to like 6).
if he's on 3 hatch without many drones, it's likely mutas, but if he's powering drones on 3 hatch (basically he won't have early 4 gas then), it's most likely not mutas at ~11 minutes
Also spines can hint at mutas, to protect from hellion suicides (which hurt a lot if he's getting gas like for mutas instead of getting like 80 drone count), whereas with Infestors he has his units at home.
Remember you always have the choice to scan his base (of course, scout his bases with your banshees first, then if there's only, for example, one spot left to check, you can scan once to know, unless you think he hid the spire on the map somewhere).
Um diddly dm, I came up with a tvz mech build that i'm working on ^_^;
It's ah very general but here you go
1rax FE->double gas 3rd CC fac when money & then a second one reactor on first fac, tech lab on second (Blueflame research quick-quick) add 2starports when money while making hellions Techlab first port right away, make viking out of the second one before tech lab Corvid reactor then constant raven/hellion expand while taking third+adding more factories
Goal is!~ hellion harass a lot since you can make a lot while leaving ravens at home to get phat energy. Ravens give safety against mutas or roach timing thanks to ATurrets (vs muta) which can buy time for thors/missile turrets or HSM vs roaches ^_^
Also are able to accumulate a lot of high energy ravens for a timing attack or to kill dem broodlords very easy, instead of trying to buy time while building up raven/viking fleet!:D
so yeah
Willhave replays um.... soon(tm) :3
am only in high dia so this probably isn't a very good build really xddd
Um diddly dm, I came up with a tvz mech build that i'm working on ^_^;
It's ah very general but here you go
1rax FE->double gas 3rd CC fac when money & then a second one reactor on first fac, tech lab on second (Blueflame research quick-quick) add 2starports when money while making hellions Techlab first port right away, make viking out of the second one before tech lab Corvid reactor then constant raven/hellion expand while taking third+adding more factories
Goal is!~ hellion harass a lot since you can make a lot while leaving ravens at home to get phat energy. Ravens give safety against mutas or roach timing thanks to ATurrets (vs muta) which can buy time for thors/missile turrets or HSM vs roaches ^_^
Also are able to accumulate a lot of high energy ravens for a timing attack or to kill dem broodlords very easy, instead of trying to buy time while building up raven/viking fleet!:D
so yeah
Willhave replays um.... soon(tm) :3
am only in high dia so this probably isn't a very good build really xddd
Um diddly dm, I came up with a tvz mech build that i'm working on ^_^;
It's ah very general but here you go
1rax FE->double gas 3rd CC fac when money & then a second one reactor on first fac, tech lab on second (Blueflame research quick-quick) add 2starports when money while making hellions Techlab first port right away, make viking out of the second one before tech lab Corvid reactor then constant raven/hellion expand while taking third+adding more factories
Goal is!~ hellion harass a lot since you can make a lot while leaving ravens at home to get phat energy. Ravens give safety against mutas or roach timing thanks to ATurrets (vs muta) which can buy time for thors/missile turrets or HSM vs roaches ^_^
Also are able to accumulate a lot of high energy ravens for a timing attack or to kill dem broodlords very easy, instead of trying to buy time while building up raven/viking fleet!:D
so yeah
Willhave replays um.... soon(tm) :3
am only in high dia so this probably isn't a very good build really xddd
Why not make 3rd CC before 2x gas?
I dunno ^^
So that you are on way to facs before you get the third to reduce window of vulnerability, i think ^^^^;
On January 22 2013 15:46 Nightmarjoo wrote: In the games I'm talking about, Gumiho is going mech! Why is this so hard to believe? In one particular gstl match where he all-killed he used this build on atlantis and won; and then used the same build against another zerg in the same match and won again.
I have no problems believing it, I said Bomber was going Marines/Tanks after such openings. Didn't see the games so I can't judge how/why he did those builds, but don't hide behind the “Well, GuMiho used it!” argument: even pros can't turn lead into gold. Those builds have major drawbacks; I don't need to recap them since you acknowledge them.
We are discussing CC first here, not 1rax CC!
You are the one sticking to “I discuss CC first only,” I made the distinction between 1 rax expand and CC first in my answers.
Or... he can continue to use the build which has a very significant economic advantage to 1rax cc (faster 3rd and higher scv count or faster banshee, depending on the gas timing after 1rax cc) and simply heed my advice which is tailored to this build, NOT 1rax cc!
Funny; you talk about a systematic 6'30 scan (one MULE = 15% of your mineral income at this time), then proceed to praise CC first's superior economy?
CC rax gas will have a hard time against certain early attacks regardless of what you do (except maybe make your Bunker behind your main's wall and evacuate at the first sign of Roaches; for Speedlings there is no time): Hellions are a bit delayed and Marauder does not come before 6'45 at best [no scout + 4 close patches maps, so add 10-20 seconds with suboptimal mineral patches and/or SCV scouting], therefore both the SCV scout and the 6'30 scans are actually irrelevant: you choose to go blind Marauder or not; and even if you do, with most builds Roaches are in your natural before your Marauder has time to rally the Bunker so it's still awkward. Moral of the story, go 1 rax expand if you face a lot of agressive openings instead of trying to get 3 extra SCVs and ending up with 5-10 less (plus wasting a Scan: big deal to see the Roach Warren 5 seconds before Roaches enter your natural) because of the vulnerability of the opening.
What sacrifice? If your scv is in his main by 3:00 (which is when I recommended) you can scout everything, leave, and then dip right back in and get out before queens are up yet, baiting him to gas the moment you leave.
Sacrifice if you later check his third then head towards his natural.
Propose how you can possibly see a spire in time to adapt if you find out he went 2base mutalisk is when your banshee arrives (which should arrive shortly before his mutalisks hatch) if you aren't scanning at 6:30 (which is when your port is ~50% done).
? Starport is complete at 6'30, even with CC rax gas.
I don't wait my Banshee to scout… As soon as my Hellions are there, I scout if he has a third or not then poke his natural's front; assuming he has a wall—otherwise you just beep and zoom towards his main and scout everything—his wall + front tells you a lot. For instance, respectively for the fastest 2-bases Lairs and the regular ones, you will see:
no creep spread, Spine and single low-energy Queen in wall → supersonic/fast Lair (i. e. between 4'30 and 5'30 depending on whether he went Lair or Metabolic Boost → Lair, which means Mutalisks hatch between 8' and 9'). You try to force the wall and see what comes/lies behind: if Roaches you can rule out Mutalisks, if nothing or Zerglings the odds of Mutalisks are very high; can still be 2-bases Infestors but it's not a major threat anyway.
some creep spread, 2 or more Queens in wall, dual Evolution Chamber in most cases → standard Lair (i. e. between 6' and 7', which means Mutalisks hatch between 9'30 and 10'30) → scout first units → if Zerglings confirm with Banshee(s) or if needed a Scan which building he's getting (Spire or Infest pit).
There are other variants, e. g. 3 Queens + Speedlings, but the scouting process is the same anyway. Hellions/Banshees openings have no particular trouble against 2-bases Mutalisks, it's a matter of scouting and transition. The fastest Lairs are really obvious and Mutalisks can't be in your base before 8'30 so there is ample time to react after Hellions poke his front.
The difference is, (1) instead of having a starport whose only value is in making addons and possibly a banshee you cannot get any utility out of for most of the game in addition; you have a second factory with a techlab on it to get blueflame while you make your armory and can begin 2thor production to defend the mutas (AND secure your 3rd, which 1fact thor production can't as effectively do) sooner than you could than if you had wasted money on your port. (2) The difference is you have blueflame hellions instead of regular hellions, so the small number you have after switching to thor production are more effective if you can get them around his mutalisks.
(1) Quite on the contrary Vikings come in handy against Mutalisks, nicely supporting Turrets and Thors to kick out Mutalisks: Turrets are immobile, Thors are semi-mobile and Vikings are mobile, so they can act as a relay when your Thors are out of position. Besides, since Zerg is forced to be cautious and use magix box they're actually more efficient than Thors for cost/supply: for 200 gas and 6 supply with a Thor you get 16 dps against Mutalisks in magic box, for 75 gas and 2 supply you get 10 dps with a Viking. Of course in a vacuum Mutalisks would simply charge and kill them, but since you have Thors nearby they can't do that: if they right click your Vikings they clump and the sanction from Thors' splash is immediate. Even more importantly, they free up Factory production time so you can make Tanks earlier. I'm not talking about many Vikings, just 2-3 should do in most cases. A single Raven can also help with all its spells. Starport is not useless at all against Mutalisks. (2) 100% of the Zergs I faced immediately switched to Roaches upon scouting I was going mech with their 2-bases Mutalisks, so BFH will make no difference against those, nor does it allow you to kill a Hatchery faster.
The scenario I'm concerned about is hellion/banshee vs 2base muta. All other possibilities are easily handled by hellion/banshee-- I've stated this already. The scenario with hellion/banshee vs 2base muta is one where they can start their 3rd hatch right before they start mutalisk production which you cannot in the least contest because of their impending mutalisks.
You cannot contest Zerg's third since May 2012 the 10th, 2 Factories makes zero difference in this regard.
Furthermore you cannot expand yourself at this time because you're making an armory, thors, and possibly also turrets
? I start my third around 7'30 regardless.
This means you cannot take your third until you have the anti-air capacity to defend 3 bases (which is more than 3 spots-- thor range is not THAT long).
This accomplishes having faster thor production which enables you to secure your 3rd much earlier, while also giving you potential harass-potential in the form of blueflame hellions. You don't even have to make the blueflame early if you don't want to.
Never had any particular trouble securing my third with only 2 Thors, and possibly 1-2 Viking(s) and sometimes a Raven: once you have 2 Turrets per mineral line and 1-2 at key points (wall, production), you take all your anti-air (Marines included) and establish your third, i. e. you need to stay 25 seconds there until your Turrets are complete and voilà. If you somehow made your third directly on its location you just build Turrets directly there with a Bunker for your Marines (not against super fast Lairs obviously).
(1)With a slower 3rd base your economy and production capacity are relatively poor, (2) making contesting his 4th base very difficult, if not impossible, as well. This means he has map control, an economic advantage, and you are stuck in a defensive posture.
(1) Which is precisely why 2 Factories is inferior to Hellions/Banshees. (2) What do you mean with “contesting his fourth”? If you take your third he can take your fourth and you can't do anything about it; if you refer to some kind of 4-6 Thors push with repairing SCVs and Hellions they're bad and coinflippy: Zerg makes Roaches and bash you (Maru vs Life, Whirlwind, IPTL ST vs Prime; not 100% sure but I think a similar thing happened in Mvp vs Life, Daybreak, Code S Season 4 finals).
Hence instead of risking this scenario as a possibility, I am advising adapting your build preemptively by going 2fact instead of banshee.
You're not adapting your build at all because by the time you make your second Factory instead of a Starport, you have zero way to know if he's going Mutalisks. Zero. Scouting gas/gasless with your SCV makes no difference in this regard.
(1) Remember 2nd fact, armory, and thors delay your cc relative to the normal timing. So if you already have your 2nd fact by the time you scout mutalisks you have 2 thors out 120 seconds later. Your thor timing is such that you don't need turrets to merely defend 2base (while you're making 3rd cc), which means if you don't get blueflame your 3rd cc is at least 500 minerals earlier (port, banshee, 2turrets), (2) which means you can easily take it the moment you have 4 thors (180 seconds after scouting mutalisk)
(1) Didn't understand, sorry. Can you list the build order you would use ideally, with the timing of the third and the Armory? (2) Blindly making 4 Thors without first checking if he keeps producing Mutalisks is not a good idea and will make you auto-lose against any massive Roach switch to attack your third, especially if you do not have some Banshees in advance. See Mvp vs Vortix, Daybreak, IEM Cologne VII: Mvp opens 2 Factories BFH, inflicts zero damage, builds 6 Thors against Mutalisks and proceeds to get stomped by Mutalisks/Roaches because he has no Tanks ready. Same thing also happened to Supernova against Vortix, Ohana, Quarterfinals IEM Cologne VII: his Tanks were too late so his Hellions/Thors/Banshees mix was swept away by Mutalisks/Roaches/Banelings; overreacting with Thors is a sure way to lose against Zerg because of the Roach. See Flash vs ViBe, Daybreak, MvP Invitational: Flash first makes 3 Thors (because it's Daybreak and ViBe was on 3 bases), then makes Tanks, then resumes Thor production upon scouting ViBe made additional Mutalisks. If Zerg opens 2-bases Mutalisks (which means 7-11 Mutalisks in most cases) there is no reason to get 4 Thors immediately, it just opens a window of vulnerability against the standard Roach switch. We're talking about 2-bases Mutalisks, so 15 Mutalisks at once are out of question.
An air unit that in the scenario I'm concerned about is unlikely to be useful again, if it even makes it home alive, for a very long time. I'd rather not waste the time and money on it-- again focusing on being efficient.
Why do you act as if the Banshee had no use before Mutalisks hatch?
I think mech's efficiency combined with good control of the ghost/thor I'm advising making in conjunction with smart decision making can overcome such a defecit should it happen. I'm not surprised what I describe wouldn't be the case with tank/viking oriented compositions though; since you have less gas and supply for useful and efficient lategame units such as ghosts and ravens.
Mech's efficiency? What about Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors/Queens' efficiency? When you're behind you lose 95+% of the time against this composition, even against inferior opponents, and mech is no exception; I don't think there's any need to argue about this as it has been proven countless times the past few months. And it's not a matter of unit composition (Ghosts are impossible to tech when you're behind by the way; just like Ravens, you lose in the process): whatever you do, if you have not enough resources (time/gas) to deal with it, you perish miserably.
Thors/Ghosts are toast as soon as Zerg gets 10-15+ Broodlords; not 100% sure but I think BaBy/TY vs soO, Entombed Valley, MvP Invitational Playoffs featured this, the last fight between Thors/Ghosts/Vikings and Broodlords/Corruptors/Infestors was not even close. BaBy should have made Ravens of course, but the game (unless I'm wrong and it's another) illustrates how Thors/Ghosts simply melts inefficiently to high Broodlords counts. As the Broodlord count increases ground units are drowned and can't reach their target… except Tanks because they have 13 range and Infestors need to come in range to cast Fungals on your air. Upgraded Thors are OK against unupgraded Broodlords in low numbers with little support but as the game drags on they become horrible.
Honestly I don't see why you would tech Ghosts (who require time and expensive infrastructure) along with mech: Tanks are much better to deal with Infestors (way more reliable and not unidimensional), and why would you invest in several Ghost Academies and Nukes (which cost gas) when you can distract Zerg and kill Drones with BFH raids?
As far as economy goes I don't see how a 2fact opening is any different from a banshee opening. Instead of port, banshee, cloak, you're getting fact, blueflame, and a couple hellions prior to starting 3rd cc.
Already stated why: if you stick to the original plan you get your third later, because you make more Hellions and you're supposed to get a Starport in order to drop BFH should your attack be blocked. Even if you skip the Starport you can't have a 7'30 third with continuous Hellion production or Tanks + Siege. Mvp started his third at 9'00 against Life in their first game.
As for your chart: after you defend his roaches easily with your hellions + a couple marauders you can harass his drones with hellions if he has not made a ton of roaches. If he has, then he hasn't made as many drones; and even a banshee build would be concerned with the roaches than with harassing drones in that case.
Usually most of the Roaches are already dead by the time the Banshee is out (Zerg sacrifices them for SCVs), they just help against heavier commitment (if he makes 10+ or rallies Zerglings) or if he chooses to contain your natural's mineral line rather than trying to destroy your Bunker.
Counter-attacking with Marauders? A possibility for sure, but watch GuMiho vs Revival, Metropolis, IPTL FXO vs EG to see how good it is; notice how GuMiho loses 13 SCVs despite going Marauders, then tries to counter but can't do anything because Revival just remade some Roaches after 10 Drones. Now compare with ForGG vs Stephano, Metropolis, Dreamhack Valencia [game starts at 22'20], and see how Banshees allow ForGG to break through Stephano's defence, bringing down some Queens, forcing the wall to open the way for Hellions and dealing a lot of uncontested damage. Of course Stephano was too light on his defence, but precisely Banshees force Zerg to allocate more resources to his defence (else he risks to lose immediately), not to mention the possibility to safely deny a morphing third.
I'm not sure how you think zerg is going to take advantage of your build after scouting it; you can easily adapt to whatever he does unless he's 3hatch on 2base, in which case it doesn't even matter.
On November 13 2012 09:13 Ver wrote: If in the GSL finals life did fast third/6 queen and ovie scouted every game Mvp wouldn't have won a single game, except maybe Abyssal (only because he didn't make broods). Mvp's 2 fact blue flame allin relied on Life not scouting and doing that speedling build. If Life makes 3rd/6 queens and ovie scouts, he sees the build and makes enough roaches to hold while getting full saturation and a huge midgame lead. That's why nobody does that 2 fact build very much anymore and also why Mvp used it almost every game.
Besides, Zerg can contain your third for a long time: even with Tanks, securing your third against 25-30 Speedroaches is really awkward before you have enough Tanks (especially on some maps), and that is a merciful answer; if Zerg feels like bashing you straight away he can go Roaches drops, and good luck defending this without any Banshee in advance.
If you hold a roach/bane all-in his expo is slow and he has no means with which to stop you from expoing afterwards (somewhat map dependant).
You're not in a bad spot after holding his Roach Baneling bust, of course; but he does have the right to play a macro game afterwards, albeit in an inferior position obviously. See Bomber vs Stephano, Antiga (first series), Lone Star Clash II; Bomber vs Symbol, Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, IPL5; Bomber vs sLivko, Ohana, IPL5; Bomber vs Sniper, Whirlwind, Code S RO32: in all those games Bomber defends a Roach/Bane bust, sometimes with very little damage, yet since his build is passive (early Tanks except for the sLivko game in which he had gone bio) he cannot push back. If you defend with Marauders and/or Tanks you run into the same problem. With Hellions/Banshees there is none of this; no potentially long, drawn-out game in which you have to constantly avoid the usual pitfalls to win: you counter-attack and bash him, or you cripple him to such an extent that you're light years ahead and win with little effort (e. g. Flash vs Sheth, Daybreak, MvP Invitational).
On January 23 2013 03:58 gillon wrote: I usually just do 2 blind thors because I have a hard time reading mutas from 3 hatch zerg, any tips on how to see it coming before that point?
Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
How to kill a meching Terran? I use bio but it just feels so one sided, once they put up turret rings it is impossible to drop, so I have to go head on. And with that....its hard because tanks do tons of dmg and hellions are decent meat shield too...
I feel like I have to outplay my meching opponent by A LOT if I want to have a chance at winning.
On January 26 2013 17:51 dynwar7 wrote: How to kill a meching Terran? I use bio but it just feels so one sided, once they put up turret rings it is impossible to drop, so I have to go head on. And with that....its hard because tanks do tons of dmg and hellions are decent meat shield too...
I feel like I have to outplay my meching opponent by A LOT if I want to have a chance at winning.
Personally i've seen a lot of bio->skio switches in the lategame, which usually works really well if you've been just getting medivacs for most of the game.
The general idea (imo) is to lure the meching player into only making 6-12 vikings max since bio relies heavily on medivac count and won't challenge for air superiority, and then use small trades to get a superior viking count +ravens/BCs and then using air superiority to push back the mech lines and give more opportunity for marauders to be cost effective by forcing the mech player to unsiege more until they get sufficient turrets/vikings/thors up to stop the BC's from tearing through their army.
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds.
i want to know your thoughts about the following things:
Do you recommend a fast 3rd CC build if you play mech in TvT and TvZ?
I recognized that many terrans go for a early third cc like flash with CC first followed by a additonal CC after the rax or Baby with CC first and Reactor Hellion FE. I'm not sure what i think about that. I mean if i go mech i need gas because thats the limiting factor and if i get a early third i have to spread my units to defend every possible angle and thats really hard against roach attacks in TvZ and Bio Timings in TvT. In fact i wonder why some top terrans go fast 3rd Base when they go for mech, because they can not defend it properly. Why don't they play like CC and then push units and get their third when they are able to defend it properly (in most cases after the Banshee and not before).
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds.
hf with analyzing them !
Wow this is huge .... Thanks you make my day <3 And yeah if it's possible, can you add the tournaments information of those games ? I only know few proleague games
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds.
hf with analyzing them !
Wow this is huge .... Thanks you make my day <3 And yeah if it's possible, can you add the tournaments information of those games ? I only know few proleague games
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds.
hf with analyzing them !
Wow this is huge .... Thanks you make my day <3 And yeah if it's possible, can you add the tournaments information of those games ? I only know few proleague games
due to the great credits for publishing this "sexy" list in PM and in this thread i will share the file of my matchoverviews with you. You helped me so many cases if i troubled and in this way i want to say at least a little thanks for all your help.
To the list: Maybe you have advices for me how i can improve my file. Feedback would be great. thx!
On January 26 2013 16:48 foxj wrote: Such a long post I'm really interested in. Dwf can you please show more some games where that Helions banshee build has been played perfectly against Zerg ? I'd appreciate it Thanks
What do you mean with “played perfectly”?
I mean when the Terrans executed the build against Zerg without trouble from Zerg aggressive or all-ins like roachs banes ... Maybe " prefect " isn't the right word, just the build worked smoothly on Terran side. I don't have really know many vods games for this build.
Alive Terious Whirlwind 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Flash Sheth Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+ Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy J Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy gowser Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Ohana LE No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy Lowely Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY Antiga Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Happy KDY No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Lowely Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Vortix Entombed Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Lucifron Stephano Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Major Hyun Ohana No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Min Antiga Shipyard 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Sniper Entombey Valley 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Targa Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nestea Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Nerchio Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Mvp Suhoshin Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa ret Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa DRG Cloud Kingdom 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Violet Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Cytoplasm Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac PuMa Tristan Atlantic Shipyard No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Ohana 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Vortix Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Supernova Hyun Entombey Valley No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Bogus SoO No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Thorzain Violet Daybreak 1st CC Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac Marineking Scarlet Cloud Kingdom No Gas FE Reactor Hellion+Banshee+2 Armory into 3 Fac
hope this not too confusing.. if you have problems to read it let me know it i will help. it's my game overview with all reactor hellion+banshee+2 Armory builds.
hf with analyzing them !
where can i find these ? are they from the iron squid II replay pack ?
EPT![[image loading]](http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/800142Mechvsbio2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-123068-1294716943.jpg)
if I click Siege half the tanks have been zealotted before they shopt
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hQj82.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ro9pM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zPis1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Nightmarjoo/mechttd7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/685036Comparison.jpg)
