EPTStimmedProbe's Postpatch TvZ Build #2 4 Thor Rush
Last Update: July 12th, 2012
Build #2 of 3: 4 Thor Rush
Last Update: July 12th, 2012
Build #2 of 3: 4 Thor Rush
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100722102753/starcraft/images/thumb/3/3f/Thor_SC2_Head1.jpg/79px-Thor_SC2_Head1.jpg)
Basic Idea:
This build opens with a very fast command center followed up by 3 gas and tech. SCVs and hellions scout for incoming heavy aggression or all-ins from the Zerg. The Terran pushes out a bit before 10 minutes with a dozen marines, 4 thors and 16 scvs. If the zerg cannot win the first battle, the thors snowball out of control. An extremely strong build scouted or unscouted. I have a 90%+ win rate at GM level as long as I am not sloppy with my scouting or micro.
Build Order:
10 - Supply Depot
12 - Barracks
15 - Orbital Command + Marine (Cut marine production till 2nd supply depot is finished)
16 - Command Center @ natural
16 - SCV + Mule
17 - Refinery x2
18 - SCV
18 - Supply Depot
21 - 3rd gas
21 - Factory (~4:30)
27 - Hellion
~30 - 2nd Factory
~30 - Armory (@100% armormy +1vehicle plating)
~32 - Tech lab on 1st factory (@100% tech lab -> lift and make another tech lab)
~32 - Reactor on Barracks
@60% armory -> add 1 or 2 supply depots depending on your supply situation
Pump SCVs/Marines/Thors/Depots
Push at 9:40 with 12 marines, 4 thors, 16 scvs + your faithful hellion!
Visual Build:
http://www.sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaaaoCjdoAoDfaoDaoEcacaoDoIajcafoCajanafjaaaoIoLoRaafoQoEoEaaoRaauMfrriZoEoEafaaiZroEoErfiZaaaaaafiZ
Scouting Zerg Aggression/All-ins
You have 4 marines for a long portion of the game and as such we need to be actively scouting if we do not want to die to all-ins. The following are some important things to consider:
- If the zerg has taken an early gas (Before 4 minutes) consider getting a bunker, definitely do a follow up scout
- Check for a fast 3rd base, since this is what many zergs do in response to 1rax FE -> around 5-6 minutes
- Use your hellion to scout for an abnormal ammount of lings (more than 6)
- Control the watch tower with your marines if possible
- Try not to use a scan, learn to read the zerg better (most of their all ins are not too hard to scout with scvs/hellions as long as you are diligent)
Executing the attack/Microing the Army
- Marines + thors in a control group -> attack move across the map
- 16 scvs in another control group -> turn on auto repair -> right click on a thor -> deselect 4 scvs -> right click on another thor -> repeat until each thor has 4 scvs
- vs pure ling -> tight formation -> 1a + laugh
- vs ling bane -> split your 4 thors up, control marines manually and split if possible -> tight formation once banes are dead
- vs ling roach -> tight formation -> manually control thors to focus fire roaches -> the lings wont do much dmg compared to the roaches
- vs ling bane roach -> combo of the above
- vs mutas -> drop mules and tell him to get out
Tips and Tricks:
- Hide the armory and factories if possible.
- Use the hellion actively if you can to clear watchtowers prior to your push
- Make some sort of simcity at your natural to protect against all-ins
- Micro your marines behind your tanky thors
- Thors sometimes shoot overlords, if one of them is stupid enough to do that manually control him into the fight
- Make sure you have setup your control groups properly, use atleast 2 control groups
- Scout ahead with the hellion to see what unit composition you are facing
- 2 thors cost 12 supply, so plan ahead, getting supply blocked even for a bit will delay your push quite a bit so practice this build in single player a few times
- Queens pop at roughly 4:45 so scout for gas and gtfo
- Buy the collectors edition for extra intimidation
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ISurD.jpg)
You're doing it right!
Replays:
http://drop.sc/218772
The most normal situation you will face. 4 queen opening from zerg into fast 3rd base and +1/+1 from the zerg with heavy drones and a defensive baneling nest. I recommend watching this replay first.
http://drop.sc/218774
Moderately fast 3rd from my opponent and heaving droning, he tries to defend with ling bane roach but gets crushed with a little micro.
http://drop.sc/218775
This guy attempted an econ baneling bust against me. However I sniffed it out with my scv/hellion and had enough sim city to defend reasonably well. The follow up push with 7 thors crushed his spine + roach defense.
http://drop.sc/218776
My opponent this game goes for the 8:45 DRG style ling/bane/roach all in on antiga. I was able to scout a fast gas and had some sim city prepared for him. My first 2 thors pop out to save the day right as the depots/bunkers came crashing down.
http://drop.sc/218777
My opponent misreads my opening as a 1rax FE into hellion + cloak banshee (polt style). He takes a relatively slow 3rd as a result and spends alot of money on static defenses. He is crushed as a result of his misread.
http://drop.sc/218773
In this game I skip the hellion because I know my opponent's style is heavy macro, my push hits 20 seconds faster and is brutally effective.
Questions and Answers *New*
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 12 2012 08:11 Aulisemia wrote:
I like it.
Quick question though, I see your core buildings are 2 tech lab factories and 1 reactor rax - why not drop a factory on the reactor for hellions to fight the zerglings? Do you just not have the gas income early on for that 3rd factory?
I like it.
Quick question though, I see your core buildings are 2 tech lab factories and 1 reactor rax - why not drop a factory on the reactor for hellions to fight the zerglings? Do you just not have the gas income early on for that 3rd factory?My gut feeling is that you will not have the mineral income needed to still hit the timing and pump out of 3 factories. This also messes up the gas income slightly. I'll experiment around with this idea.
On July 12 2012 08:28 RyuChus wrote:
Few questions here. If he does all-in what should I do? Having only 4 marines at the prime time for a baneling bust doesn't sound fun to me. What happens when I lose my hellion, should I reproduce, scan, or continue to scout with scvs? If the push fails and is not effective, do I transition to a Marine Tank midgame, or will I just lose outright? Thanks.
EDIT: One more.. If I can't hide my armory from the zerg, will the zerg just know what's going on, and be able to defend it easier, or is the push still just as effective?
Few questions here. If he does all-in what should I do? Having only 4 marines at the prime time for a baneling bust doesn't sound fun to me. What happens when I lose my hellion, should I reproduce, scan, or continue to scout with scvs? If the push fails and is not effective, do I transition to a Marine Tank midgame, or will I just lose outright? Thanks.
EDIT: One more.. If I can't hide my armory from the zerg, will the zerg just know what's going on, and be able to defend it easier, or is the push still just as effective?
You gotta scout it out with your 1st scv, your follow up scv and your hellion. This takes quite a bit of game sense to read your opponent properly. An econ baneling bust will kill you unless you scout it. Do not reproduce your hellion, that will mess your timings up, I would just rescout with an scv. As long as there are not speedlings you should get some information. If my push does some damage but doesnt't win out right I transition into mech if im ahead and a bio + blue flame allin if im behind.
On July 12 2012 09:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Four thors and seven years ago...
this looks like a lot of fun! I'm a big fan of thor all-ins, and they are fun early game units in TvZ.
You mention scouting for zerg all-ins during that initial vulnerable period, and I was wondering what an appropriate reaction to a baneling allin or something would be using this build.
Four thors and seven years ago...
this looks like a lot of fun! I'm a big fan of thor all-ins, and they are fun early game units in TvZ.
You mention scouting for zerg all-ins during that initial vulnerable period, and I was wondering what an appropriate reaction to a baneling allin or something would be using this build.
2 bunkers on low ground spread out + sim city around the bunkers + a wall in at the top of the ramp.
On July 12 2012 11:40 RamboJesus wrote:
I watched all the replays and must say this seems like a very impressive build, I'm curious if you could upload replays of the times you've lost with it.
I watched all the replays and must say this seems like a very impressive build, I'm curious if you could upload replays of the times you've lost with it.
I'll try to find some, but to be honest it's very straight forward losses. Either I didnt s cout and got all-ined because I'm lazy, or I messed up a thor split horribly and lost all my scvs to banelings.
On July 12 2012 11:58 dynwar7 wrote:
What if the zerg gas steals? Its going to delay this a lot? In 1 of your replays he stole your gas at your natural, so I guess its fine, but what if he steals your gas in your main base?
What if the zerg gas steals? Its going to delay this a lot? In 1 of your replays he stole your gas at your natural, so I guess its fine, but what if he steals your gas in your main base?
Take the gas at the natural faster and transfer over scvs. This will slow the build down by 10 seconds or so though.
On July 12 2012 12:36 dynwar7 wrote:
Just tried this vs GTAI and.... well, all my thors got NPed
Just tried this vs GTAI and.... well, all my thors got NPed
What were your 12 marines doing? Just standing around? They should be able to help with focus fire micro. I have not met this once on ladder admitedly, so theorycraft is the best I can offer.
On July 12 2012 13:45 Eps wrote:
Nice to see these post-patch builds coming from you =).
The pushes seem to be very solid, and they also hit before Z has enough larva to mass Roaches for defence.
I watched a few of the replays. The 3rd replay however was a bit troubling, seeing how well the Spines and Roaches fared. Although you did win, I can't help but think if Z had positioned his Spines more effectively that the outcome may have been different. He had 3 spines in his main on Shakuras. If he had placed them on the high ground above the choke, they'd be in a solid position to snipe off SCVs or damage the Thors. The speed that the first Thor dropped was also a bit scary, considering you'd think they'd be a bit Tankier.
Nice to see these post-patch builds coming from you =).
The pushes seem to be very solid, and they also hit before Z has enough larva to mass Roaches for defence.
I watched a few of the replays. The 3rd replay however was a bit troubling, seeing how well the Spines and Roaches fared. Although you did win, I can't help but think if Z had positioned his Spines more effectively that the outcome may have been different. He had 3 spines in his main on Shakuras. If he had placed them on the high ground above the choke, they'd be in a solid position to snipe off SCVs or damage the Thors. The speed that the first Thor dropped was also a bit scary, considering you'd think they'd be a bit Tankier.
If you noticed I messed up my micro a bit. I didn't have my scvs on autorepair until like 8 seconds into the fight. Mass spines + roach is a legit build against this. Just pick off what you can and go home and fight 2 base vs 2 base.
On July 13 2012 12:40 Xingke wrote:
Decided to try this. First game I encounter the guy goes blind roach drop. I force him back after he kills 1 factory and killing his natural, but he had enough roaches to just completely kill all of the thors + marines with his roaches, even with mass repair and focus firing, and counter for a win. Attack hit within about 5-10 seconds of your push on your Antiga game(was the map it happened on), because I paused for a second before deciding to keep going with the push when he dropped me.
Decided to try this. First game I encounter the guy goes blind roach drop. I force him back after he kills 1 factory and killing his natural, but he had enough roaches to just completely kill all of the thors + marines with his roaches, even with mass repair and focus firing, and counter for a win. Attack hit within about 5-10 seconds of your push on your Antiga game(was the map it happened on), because I paused for a second before deciding to keep going with the push when he dropped me.
Now that you mention this, I have lost in the exact same way on the exact same map o.o I guess you gotta sniff it out with the hellion? It's a pretty rare build though so I guess just scout more, not much you can do once it starts.
On July 13 2012 15:15 TofuSurprise wrote:
How does this strategy deal with a counter attack that hits after you move out with your initial push, but before your push reaches the zerg base?? Do you just go for the base trade?
How does this strategy deal with a counter attack that hits after you move out with your initial push, but before your push reaches the zerg base?? Do you just go for the base trade?
95% of the time I go for a base trade, you need to analyze the situation on a case by case basis. Terran comes out ahead in base trades normally, remember to send all your scvs up to your thors or use them to repair the 5th/6th thor that is about to pop out and you should be ok.
On July 13 2012 16:06 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Just played this vs. a high master zerg.
I guess zergs have seen this build enough to know it's coming, because all my thors got NP'ed
Tried to snipe the infestors but mass lings just tore my marines apart.
I'm thinking of getting just a few banshees to snipe infestors, going to test out some timings and report back.
Just played this vs. a high master zerg.
I guess zergs have seen this build enough to know it's coming, because all my thors got NP'ed
Tried to snipe the infestors but mass lings just tore my marines apart.I'm thinking of getting just a few banshees to snipe infestors, going to test out some timings and report back.
Blind counter NP is just a silly build from zerg. 2 base infestor is a horrible build... but I guess it works well against this build. I'm sure after a few weeks when people arent trying this out a bunch that silly 2 base infestor build will go away.
On July 13 2012 16:41 y0su wrote:
I like it. I was doing a similar 4 thor all in vs Toss for fun a few months back.
One thing I found out... you can get more gas with less SCVs if you take all 4 gases and only harvest with 2 SCVs per refinery. The one time cost of 75 min and lost mining time for construction are quickly made up by having an additional SCV harvesting minerals (8 on gas instead of 9).
I like it. I was doing a similar 4 thor all in vs Toss for fun a few months back.
One thing I found out... you can get more gas with less SCVs if you take all 4 gases and only harvest with 2 SCVs per refinery. The one time cost of 75 min and lost mining time for construction are quickly made up by having an additional SCV harvesting minerals (8 on gas instead of 9).
Correct. Sometimes I do this but most of the time I don't bother. This is a slight improvement on the orginal build though.
