EPT[L][D] Terran Mech: Resources - Page 25
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
Do need to remember to get ghosts quicker though. EDIT: I also forgot my upgrades for quite a while, but it's a start! Definately the best I've played since I started doing mech TvP. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
This game was so, so painful. I tried Nightmarjoo's build (execution was probably poor, but it wasn't the beginning of the game that was the problem), and managed to take it to super lategame. I had battlecruiser ghost, attacked into his army after he lost everything attacking into my PF's and just got rolled. There are some weird things I did (that mass scanning everywhere because I was worried about his army comp), but I just don't know why I got raped so so hard in the last fight. A big problem for me is my game lags like a bitch when motherships come out, so it was pretty hard to get off decent EMP's. I don't know, I just feel like with that amount of BC's, I really shouldn't have died in the way I did. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Your opening was slightly wrong: it's hellion armory reactor cc thor; you omitted the hellion and reactor. You were lucky enough to scout his nexus with scv; this isn't always possible. Even after scouting the nexus it's important to get a sense of what he's doing after that nexus. Hellion can scout the map to rule out aggression as a possibility because it'll find no pylons, and you can control the tower. Lacking the reactor means that if he happened to not FE you might not be able to produce enough units to hold his aggression. It's important to move your bunker to the nat asap. Remember that you're cutting units to get a faster cc; if he 4gates after nexus you want to have a position to defend. I consider it important to fully wall the nat choke additionally-- helps vs dts. Speaking of dts, your scouting could not possibly eliminate dt after nexus as a possibility so as such you needed ebay/turret much sooner to be safe. How indeed you felt safe with no wall, no bunker, no turret, no scout, and no tower is beyond me. Some depot missing, additional nonconstant scv production, and taking nat geysers too early (if all you're producing before 3rd cc is thor/attack ups, 2gas yields the income necessary for constant production; if you want further excess gas then just take 1 nat gas before 3rd cc) stunted your mineral income dramatically early on, slowing your 3rd, putting you significantly behind where you should be for rest of game. Wall on 3rd choke is important too; especially on this map since you're putting an oc at your 3rd. You've made it ridiculously easy for protoss to slip dts or even zlots into your main and nat once you've moved to your 4th. Your ports and ccs are late; should be spending your money more efficiently. Moment you queue 6th thor your next 450 gas should be buying ports; and once you've paid for your turret ring and sensor towers *cough cough* your minerals should be going into ccs (without interrupting other unit production). The moment cloak finishes you should get a nuke and start harassing with your ghosts. Hellion harass can identify his army positioning, get a sense for the extent of his obs spread, and identify good nuking spots (as well as his army composition, which guides your composition). Try to use your limited space more efficiently (e.g. use the space at your 3rd for ccs or ports or both; nat is more vulnerable). Ghosts are very very very very very very very important; you MUST get at least a 2nd rax as you're taking your 4th. At 20:00 you have over 4k and are behind by about 8 OCs; what's the problem? Additionally you aren't maxed, which is very dangerous at this point. You need to take a 5th much sooner (as soon as you can afford). Especially on this map where the 5th is so near your 4th, and gives you more precious building space. Building armour and pf/turret range are very important upgrades; get them on 4base at the latest. I like the part where you ask "where the hell is your army". If that wasn't a big self-clue that you needed sensor towers (and turrets) up then I'm a horse. Speaking of that army; it was near your army/defense and had no obs. You could've snuck some ghosts behind it and sniped all of his hts while creeping tanks forward with the bulk of your army near your pf. It's funny that you're hesitating to attack him when it's in your interest to do so while you're also in an advantageous position since later you attack him when it's not in your interest to do so while in an incredibly disadvantageous position. Not using your ghosts during the first fight caused you to take far more damage than was necessary. You didn't even use your entire army in that fight; you had some random tanks defending a pf. The pf can take care of itself, keep your army together. You have about half the OC count you need; so in addition to taking much much much more damage in that fight you also lacked the funds to reconstruct your army. Then the thing that kills you is you decide after almost losing the game in a defensive position to engage him in the middle of the map next to a pylon, far away from your defenses. You didn't even have your entire max with you; you had 4 tanks, a ghost, a bc, and 4 in-construction bcs not at the battle. You had no money for repairs. You did not use a single emp during the entire fight. You had no pdds or seeker missiles. And you fought him next to a pylon -_-. You had less than one max fighting more than one max using a composition weak to his. Why you expected to win the fight is beyond me. Mech is about maximizing the advantage and capitalizing on its efficiency, utilizing every part of the Terran arsenal. You did none of these. I didn't see a single nuke used in the entire game. The only time you used your hellions was to suicide them into colos for supply. Unmaxing may never be the most elegant tool, but you can honour your units a little better and suicide them usefully at least. I'm not even sure if you used a single emp or snipe during the entire game either. This means that you're fighting more units than you should, they all take more hits from your units before dying than they should, and your opponent has more money to replace his units than he should. In contrast you have fewer units than you should, with less money than you should have for repairs and replacements So your problems that game were having weak macro and poor unit control, in and outside the battles. While I may sound very harsh in my critique, you were very close in many respects to doing the build the way I do it. You just need to tighten up your play: make your spending more efficient, and get more out of your units. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
He goes from reactor hellion into double armory 3rd CC and starts getting thors. It was really awesome and I hate banshees so I'll enjoy using that build <3 | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
but i will definitely give this a try | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On September 20 2012 03:57 kollin wrote: What should I do in late game TvZ? I've tried getting that 200 food ball of Viking raven Thor bc and I usually win the 1st fight, but the relax on 40 corruptors + ultras just destroys me? So do I want to be turtling while he throws waves of units at me until he has no more money or is there something else I should be doing? exactly numbers of your late composition.. i guess their is the problem imo this terran deathball beats everything of the zerg | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
This is from Tuesday's europe playhem; the game gets a little close at one point due to a moment of poor army control on my part, but overall the game accurately portrays how I handle very long tvzs. This is pretty typical of a mech game on whirlwind additionally. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
anyone got any replays specifically against stargate openers? | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
A few of the most recent are bio, don't let that alarm you, I just used that to see what kind of shape my bio was in. Vast majority are still mech~ | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
The first was a 1 base TvT where the guy went hellion/marine drop into containing me really fast with tanks/marines. My main mistake was I didn't switch in to tanks quick enough when I scouted he was on 1 base. I evacuated my nat and barely lost any workers, but by the time I got tanks with siege I was considerably behind. I ended up taking it to the late game, but was so far behind it took me ages of battling back his armies over and over again before I could secure a fourth. I lost to his air switch when I'd just lost a load of vikings to a missclick. Second was a TvZ. He had a baneling nest down at 6:30 so I expected a baneling bust. I prepared by getting tanks quicker, but the bust never came. I had good upgrades, got onto my third base but when I scanned again I noticed he was still on lair. I didn't see an infestation pit or spire so I started thors and turrets, but he came in with quite a lot of mutas in one go, my thors were not ready and the turrets I had wasn't enough. I eventually held them off, but I lost a lot of workers. I made the decision to go attack as I thought he wouldn't have much of a ground force, I saw he was only on 4 base, with only 2 mining so I thought my strong tank/thor push would just kill him. He threw a load of roaches at me, it was going fine until all my thors randomly stopped attacking roaches and attacked some overlords they saw at the edge of my vision, he overran my tanks and thors and from there just kept barreling down my front with roaches, with me unable to catch up. Thirdly, I 1 rax FE'd as usual in TvT and he came with a bunch of marines due to me building my bunker too late. I reacted really stupidly and it put me massively behind. He was still on 2 base (or so I thought, due to me being so behind I couldn't afford to scan and my unit production was focused on tanks thinking he was all inning me) when I eventually managed to get some hellions to send out. He'd taken 3 extra bases and was mining gas, I started adding turrets as I knew BCs were coming, but that was my flaw. I should have added a few turrets and made vikings instead, but I turret pushed slowly out to take my third, at this point I was so far behind that I thought if I could bait him into the turrets and kill all his BCs I could go kill him with my big ground army, but I couldn't get enough gas for vikings on top of that and although I killed most of his BCs with only losing turrets, he just kept making them and I couldn't push out. I lost eventually when I got mined out in my 2 bases I could secure myself and gg'd. what put me so far behind was my odd as hell reaction to his initial 8 marine push that broke my front, I really screwed up that completely. :/ | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
Preferably they should be, (somewhat) back and forth rather than some early game stomp into an easy mech win. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
35 reps from dreamhack where fagflame was researched involving at least one notable player. I can't guarantee all are mech, but most if not all should be. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Link to a guide I wrote describing my main tvz build, the cc first into hellion/banshee build, similar to what mvp has been using recently (but safer). | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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