EPT[G] short guide on easy wins in PvZ - Page 9
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
(1) Stephano roach max build with good macro and roach micro. Split the roaches so they don't all get vortexed and kite the zealots. (2) Make some relatively early corruptors and just kill the mothership. It's not that hard to kill the mothership if you really commit to doing so, especially before it has 200 energy. Just over-produce corruptors in the early mid-game, split them up into 2-3 groups, and kill the damn thing. Roaches own zealot-archon w/o vortex support. (3) Broodlord-infestor with very good control. The micro isn't impossibly difficult (split units into multiple groups, fungal zealots and archons, NP mothership if possible), but because Zergs rarely face this composition, they don't get a lot of practice against it. This can be reliably beaten with a normal broodlord-infestor composition, but it requires a good deal of practice that most ladder Zergs haven't put in. | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:17 kcdc wrote: I know of 3 good ways to beat this build: (1) Stephano roach max build with good macro and roach micro. Split the roaches so they don't all get vortexed and kite the zealots. (2) Make some relatively early corruptors and just kill the mothership. It's not that hard to kill the mothership if you really commit to doing so, especially before it has 200 energy. Just over-produce corruptors in the early mid-game, split them up into 2-3 groups, and kill the damn thing. Roaches own zealot-archon w/o vortex support. (3) Broodlord-infestor with very good control. The micro isn't impossibly difficult (split units into multiple groups, fungal zealots and archons, NP mothership if possible), but because Zergs rarely face this composition, they don't get a lot of practice against it. This can be reliably beaten with a normal broodlord-infestor composition, but it requires a good deal of practice that most ladder Zergs haven't put in. For a blue poster, the majority of all your arguments (not only in this thread, btw) are 'totschlag' arguments. I have no idea of the english (or even dutch) phrase, but it is basically an argument that cannot be efficiently disproved. An example would be 'it only works if you believe in it' (thus if it doesn't work you simply don't believe in it, it is still a valid method!). Many, many zergs have fallen with the broodlord/infestor combo, same goes for mass stephano roach pressure. Your argument is just 'better control, hurrrrdurrrr' which is pretty stupid. Why don't you make a [G] about TvZ where the T only and only uses marines? Marines beat everything on a cost+food equivalent base and theoretically banelings, fungal growth and ultralisk cleave damage never have to hit more than one marine. If a baneling/fungal/ultralisk hits more than one marine, it is not the strategy that is not viable, you simply need better control. I bet you'd have a lot of fun with your totschlag arguments in such a topic. Your #1 way is a very good example. 'split the roaches so they don't all get vortexed and kite the zealots' - yes, it is feasible, but once you split your roaches I will only have to deal with one part of the split up roaches. If you get a good surround, I can throw a random vortex on your concave and I still have to deal with a small part of your army, because the rest is stuck inside the vortex. It is also for this reason why most zergs run their whole army into the vortex once a small part of it gets vortexed - the remaining forces would lose anyway. Don't forget that roaches have 4 range and are medium-sized units. You can only spread so much before you can spread no more, just like you can only go so fast until (almost) reaching the speed of light. There is a limit to it due to unit size and range. #3 is the same totschlag argument. #2 is something I see you do in pretty much every PvZ-topic, and now in this one. It is called 'talking out of your ass', fueled by a lack of understanding about zerg economy (and in this case apparently basic game sense) - you simply CANNOT do that. It is like me saying 'with this new sprinting method you will be able to beat Usain Bolt, his record time is [x] and with this you will reach [x-1]' and you replying with 'yeah, but, y'know, Usain Bolt will just run faster. It is not viable.' You. Cannot. Actually. Do. That. Is it clear? | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
On July 14 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote: I got another easy win for you: - 9 Pylon, chrono only probes - 13 Forge - 17 3x Pylons at ramp = gg Only way for Zerg to beat it, besides patrolling the ramp (which you can still glitch out if they are using patrol command, or if you bring 2 probes), is to 6-10 pool, in which case you either cannon your main or block the ramp, win. win win scenario. I dont know why Toss isn't 100% on ladder. On a side note, good guide. Seems like most of the Toss I play on ladder. They beat me too. Drone drill, toss lose ezpz. | ||
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ChEDo
Canada310 Posts
I would like to try this, but after having to sit through 10 hours of pvz, I will puke if I see a Stargate >_< What do you think about vs roach/ling/hydra doom drop? | ||
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NMHU.
Canada110 Posts
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
Well, simply put because I can hold my third with cannons + voids + gateways units. It is map dependent, but at 400/400+300/200 for one unit it's something i'd like to avoid from an economic point of view. Also I don't think you need it do deal with anything including brood lords or infestors until the food counts get super high so if you engage early enough you again don't need it. Obviously I'd get one if I got into a situation vs a maxed bl infestor army. 900 pt master. I'm gonna practice a few games, right now I wanna try holding a ~715 third with voids and gateway units +cannons and sim while keeping chrono on weapons. Push immediately on +3. Or something. Any thoughts on tech switches or anything of that nature with this build? Since I can't really think of a counter composition nothing comes to mind =D | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Drone drilling does not work on most spawns on most maps, and Toss can just reinforce the wall. Zerg lose ezpz... I've actually gone and tested this multiple times though. Drone drilling may break through a pylon, but it won't break through a warping in gateway behind it before the cannon finishes. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:51 the p00n wrote: For a blue poster, the majority of all your arguments (not only in this thread, btw) are 'totschlag' arguments. I have no idea of the english (or even dutch) phrase, but it is basically an argument that cannot be efficiently disproved. An example would be 'it only works if you believe in it' (thus if it doesn't work you simply don't believe in it, it is still a valid method!). Many, many zergs have fallen with the broodlord/infestor combo, same goes for mass stephano roach pressure. Your argument is just 'better control, hurrrrdurrrr' which is pretty stupid. Why don't you make a [G] about TvZ where the T only and only uses marines? Marines beat everything on a cost+food equivalent base and theoretically banelings, fungal growth and ultralisk cleave damage never have to hit more than one marine. If a baneling/fungal/ultralisk hits more than one marine, it is not the strategy that is not viable, you simply need better control. I bet you'd have a lot of fun with your totschlag arguments in such a topic. Your #1 way is a very good example. 'split the roaches so they don't all get vortexed and kite the zealots' - yes, it is feasible, but once you split your roaches I will only have to deal with one part of the split up roaches. If you get a good surround, I can throw a random vortex on your concave and I still have to deal with a small part of your army, because the rest is stuck inside the vortex. It is also for this reason why most zergs run their whole army into the vortex once a small part of it gets vortexed - the remaining forces would lose anyway. Don't forget that roaches have 4 range and are medium-sized units. You can only spread so much before you can spread no more, just like you can only go so fast until (almost) reaching the speed of light. There is a limit to it due to unit size and range. #3 is the same totschlag argument. #2 is something I see you do in pretty much every PvZ-topic, and now in this one. It is called 'talking out of your ass', fueled by a lack of understanding about zerg economy (and in this case apparently basic game sense) - you simply CANNOT do that. It is like me saying 'with this new sprinting method you will be able to beat Usain Bolt, his record time is [x] and with this you will reach [x-1]' and you replying with 'yeah, but, y'know, Usain Bolt will just run faster. It is not viable.' You. Cannot. Actually. Do. That. Is it clear? Unfalsifiable is the word you're looking for. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/179-unfalsifiability | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On July 17 2012 02:50 FLiP491 wrote: Any thoughts on tech switches or anything of that nature with this build? Since I can't really think of a counter composition nothing comes to mind =D ht with storm + air + chargelots is actually a superior combination of units but I haven't found a way to viably tech up to that. | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
Roach aggression: Trade as efficiently as possible. Zealots are easy, void ray is annoying but not overly impactful, but an archon vortex is going to lead to a fast GG. I don't think this is the smartest way to attack this build, but we zergs do love our roaches. Mutas: I hate using them in PvZ, but the build skimps on stalkers so the opening is there. The onus is on Zerg to justify the choice of tech with significant damage, because Mutas will delay his endgame considerably. BL/Infestor/Spines: Not really different from any lategame Protoss vs. lategame Zerg scenario. No blink means it all comes down to vortex. Op makes it sound easier than it is in reality, it's just a matter of who screws up first | ||
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Geiko
France2010 Posts
On July 16 2012 22:14 Sated wrote: It's actually more similar to this build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271126 and was written by the same person. This page is referenced very early on in the guide that you linked to. It's funny that he quotes kcdc in the OP of that guide when he is saying good things about the build, and then completely discredits him in this thread when kcdc criticizes the build. Personally I tend to agree with kcdc that people with decent micro and engagements should be able to break this. I agree that it is easy to say, but then again the burden is on OP to prove that his build can hold a well microed 11 min roach max. So far in the replays I've seen, the zerg's engagement and army control were not really convincing. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
You're teching stargate+fleet beacon+mothership+twilight+charge+twilight+weapons upgrades all on 2 bases, and then taking a third base with a tiny amount of supply and a low sentry count just as Zerg hits their mid-game strength. I used to play this build as my primary macro build, but after a while, I was hitting Zergs that would just mass units and roll me over because I had spent too much on tech to defend my third. And if you don't think broodlord+infestor with good control can beat mothership+archon, you're not playing people good enough to punish it. | ||
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RuneZerg
Denmark90 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:13 kcdc wrote: p00n, we've had this argument many times. This is the same build you posted way back, except now with a FFE. I've used the build a fair amount, and I have a lot of experience with other mothership archon builds. The reality is that your build works because Zergs at your level don't know how to play against 2-base mothership. But Zerg absolutely can get enough units off of 3 bases to break you while you're doing a super tech-heavy build. You're teching stargate+fleet beacon+mothership+twilight+charge+twilight+weapons upgrades all on 2 bases, and then taking a third base with a tiny amount of supply and a low sentry count just as Zerg hits their mid-game strength. I used to play this build as my primary macro build, but after a while, I was hitting Zergs that would just mass units and roll me over because I had spent too much on tech to defend my third. And if you don't think broodlord+infestor with good control can beat mothership+archon, you're not playing people good enough to punish it. couldnt have said it better, way too tech heavy, if you pick up wins with this is because zergs have no idea how to respond, not because your build is good. | ||
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Leach
United States536 Posts
On July 17 2012 01:51 the p00n wrote: For a blue poster, the majority of all your arguments (not only in this thread, btw) are 'totschlag' arguments. I have no idea of the english (or even dutch) phrase, but it is basically an argument that cannot be efficiently disproved. An example would be 'it only works if you believe in it' (thus if it doesn't work you simply don't believe in it, it is still a valid method!). Many, many zergs have fallen with the broodlord/infestor combo, same goes for mass stephano roach pressure. Your argument is just 'better control, hurrrrdurrrr' which is pretty stupid. Why don't you make a [G] about TvZ where the T only and only uses marines? Marines beat everything on a cost+food equivalent base and theoretically banelings, fungal growth and ultralisk cleave damage never have to hit more than one marine. If a baneling/fungal/ultralisk hits more than one marine, it is not the strategy that is not viable, you simply need better control. I bet you'd have a lot of fun with your totschlag arguments in such a topic. Your #1 way is a very good example. 'split the roaches so they don't all get vortexed and kite the zealots' - yes, it is feasible, but once you split your roaches I will only have to deal with one part of the split up roaches. If you get a good surround, I can throw a random vortex on your concave and I still have to deal with a small part of your army, because the rest is stuck inside the vortex. It is also for this reason why most zergs run their whole army into the vortex once a small part of it gets vortexed - the remaining forces would lose anyway. Don't forget that roaches have 4 range and are medium-sized units. You can only spread so much before you can spread no more, just like you can only go so fast until (almost) reaching the speed of light. There is a limit to it due to unit size and range. #3 is the same totschlag argument. #2 is something I see you do in pretty much every PvZ-topic, and now in this one. It is called 'talking out of your ass', fueled by a lack of understanding about zerg economy (and in this case apparently basic game sense) - you simply CANNOT do that. It is like me saying 'with this new sprinting method you will be able to beat Usain Bolt, his record time is [x] and with this you will reach [x-1]' and you replying with 'yeah, but, y'know, Usain Bolt will just run faster. It is not viable.' You. Cannot. Actually. Do. That. Is it clear? He's just pointed out the weak spots of your strat that btw every bo there is has and you reply in such a manner? Kinda a dick move, bro Ever heard of constructive criticism? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Your #1 way is a very good example. 'split the roaches so they don't all get vortexed and kite the zealots' - yes, it is feasible, but once you split your roaches I will only have to deal with one part of the split up roaches. If you get a good surround, I can throw a random vortex on your concave and I still have to deal with a small part of your army, because the rest is stuck inside the vortex. It is also for this reason why most zergs run their whole army into the vortex once a small part of it gets vortexed - the remaining forces would lose anyway. Just read this again. If the Zergs you're playing are running the rest of their army into vortexes, you're definitely not playing people that know what they're doing. Zerg should just accept that whatever is caught in the vortex is dead. If they do an ~11 minute roach timing to kill your third, you only have 1 vortex at most. Zerg just needs to let those 10 roaches die and kite the zealots and archons with the rest of their roaches while reinforcing. You can't possibly keep up with their production. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Lolsoup
United States11 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:58 Arcanefrost wrote: Overproducing corruptors to snipe the ms and then transitioning into roach is very possible. I don't know why you always act so incredibly rude when it's brought up, it's one of the best counters to your build and you don't even bother to discuss it. Stop being such a douche to kcdc, he's 100% right and you seem to be ridiculizing his arguments because you have no viable response to them. It all depends on what you mean by "overproduce". You're gonna have to make a ton of corrupters, because with vortex and archons you can't get away with making just 3-7. Corrupters also aren't free, spire takes a long time to build, and chances are you'd be better off just using it for mutalisks. If you DO decide to go for corrupters, it'll take away massively from your roach count, which leaves you vulnerable to counterattack timings and other such aggressive moves from the protoss. Mothership is obviously a big investment, but focusing your entire build around killing it is missing the point, which is that chargelot archon is hella strong, ESPECIALLY before brood lords come out. This also all relies on perfect scouting, which you can't always achieve with a void ray + phoenix running around sniping your overlords. This build is obviously not perfect, it has it's weaknesses, mutalisks seem to be a large vulnerability as well as early ling/bane timings, but corrupter/roach is the least of your worries. Regardless of these weaknesses, it is still incredibly strong and a lot of fun. | ||
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