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On July 15 2012 23:54 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 22:47 Iatrik wrote:On July 15 2012 22:15 the p00n wrote:On July 15 2012 21:58 Iatrik wrote:Entire "strategy" is just a huge troll  Don't know where to start xD Ways to lose: - Neural Archons - Neural Mothership - Fungal Zealots - Broodlords with decent spread - Roach + Corruptor - Roach + Hydra + Corruptor - Muta + Banelings or to just sum it up: Everything except Ling/Muta (considering you have storm to defend) A style like that would only work, if you would: - Focus Overseers like crazy while not losing your mothership - Expand very aggressive, so you can be cost inefficent and/or have a lot of gas for storms/archons - Not open FFE, be aggresive from the start and put pressure at deny expansions like a boss If you still win with your strat, that means: - Your opponent is just bad. According to previous posts, you are 'TdgAisora'. 1v1 platinum with very little games. http://sc2ranks.com/eu/2111475/TdgAisoraPlease go. Nice, got a fan! Hi Fan! Smurfs gotta smurf. Yeah, I'm only platinum 1v1 at that account atm, because I try out playing random. Problem: My Terran is terrible and i have work to do. But if a strategy is good or bad, just because a person with a big e-penis posts it, then i don't wanna live in that world anymore. Your strat is really bad against everything (as listed above). For good players, your vortex will just become a bigger forcefield. That's it. And with no units to really fight a zerg, you'll just die. He has a >90% win rate in PvZ against players ranging from mid-master to GM. What will you accept as evidence that a build is viable? Must the OP defeat DRG in a bo7 in the GSL Finals? Please stop spouting nonsense. The build is solid.
Hmmm,
How can you see his actuall winrate? I would like to see validation of that 90% claim.
Thanks.
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very fun to use this build, but i dont know what the zerg shall do.
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I would still like to see this versus a Zerg that doesnt do the mistakes i made. There should be no way to beat broodlord/infestor/spines/queen without a lucky vortex.
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I'm skeptical when someone claims they have a 90% win rate in any matchup - not even top pros manage to achieve this. Leave that part out and let people focus on the strategy itself, it's only inviting them to go off-topic.
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On July 16 2012 00:23 Shiiken wrote:
I would still like to see this versus a Zerg that doesnt do the mistakes i made. There should be no way to beat broodlord/infestor/spines/queen without a lucky vortex.
Hidden in your statement lies belief in imbalance. Saw this build in action just before. Seems quite effective. Though the player did send zealots everywhere to tear through the zergs far away expos; which i domt believe to be the OPs intentions.
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On July 16 2012 00:23 Shiiken wrote:
I would still like to see this versus a Zerg that doesnt do the mistakes i made. There should be no way to beat broodlord/infestor/spines/queen without a lucky vortex.
You will always get the 'lucky vortex' off. You can't actually spread enough due to brood lord range and size. If you would spread any more beyond a certain point, the broods would simply be out of range and not participating in the battle at all (unless you have nearly a 360 surround which is unrealistic to expect and probably not even that effective). In a large concave, you can't actually spread your broods out enough to avoid a double vortex from winning the game. All 'you can't win vs bl/inf with a very good spread' replies are therefore pretty silly. It's like someone who's into rocket science proposing 'just adding more power to the engines and moving faster' as a solution to deep space travel, ignoring the speed of light limit. You can't actually do that, it's like saying 'well, 600 roaches would definitely beat your 200/200 composition!'. Nobody says that though, because the concept of 200/200 being the max is easily understood by the average sc2 player. When it comes to these spatial things, most people are oblivious.
Reading through these suggestions is like listening to kids talking about dinosaurs and drawing mountain-sized tyrannosauruses, ignoring the fact that carnivores have a maximum size potential due to some limiting factors (most physiological) inherent to carnivores.
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As someone who has been struggling in masters level PvZ lately, this build has really turned the tables for me. I started trying it yesterday and found myself being able to deal with anything the Zerg throws at me. This is definitely a very solid strategy
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On July 16 2012 00:40 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:23 Shiiken wrote:
I would still like to see this versus a Zerg that doesnt do the mistakes i made. There should be no way to beat broodlord/infestor/spines/queen without a lucky vortex. Hidden in your statement lies belief in imbalance. Saw this build in action just before. Seems quite effective. Though the player did send zealots everywhere to tear through the zergs far away expos; which i domt believe to be the OPs intentions.
Yeah, I wasn't sure how the style was played so I kindda went for the mood of the moment, and used zealots to harass left & right Zerg's expoes while growing my archon ball. For others who haven't seen it, here's the vod:
http://fr.twitch.tv/nyast/b/325001183 at 1h19
I hesitate to draw conclusion from so few games though ( it's the third time I play it, all were wins ). For once this game wasn't standard ( Zerg went something like 10-pool on a 4p map where he didn't know were I was. I got the eco lead for free ).
I just played another game where the Zerg went mass roaches, and it seems like I was able to hold pretty well ( last game in the vod ). But he added some infestors very late.
To be totally honnest, I still feel unsecure about this build. There's a lot of room for mistakes since you're so heavily relying on the mothership. Without the mothership, you auto lose when facing brood lords and infestors. But guess what comes before Zerg morphs brood lords ? Corruptors.. and a lot of them. Nothing prevents him from snipping the mothership while you're moving out, even if it's not cost effective. Or he could land a neural parasite and vortex your own units, and you're dead meat.
One thing that is good for sure is that since you're relying on archons, you'll have a huge excess of minerals in the late game. Add some pylons and prisms to harass and even if it's not too cost effective, you can snippe a lot of hatcheries while keeping the Zerg busy on his knees. I like that a lot.
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Here is a replay of me losing with this build. However, it illustrates very well how you cannot snipe the mothership, even on this broken map.
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Unfortunately it is on Tal'Darim Altar, one of the worst maps in the ladder pool (IMO), so no real weight can be put behind this game. I recently unveto'd it, which was silly.
The only reason I lose this (aside from Tal'Darim Altar being a dumb map with grave positional imbalance, unnecessary rocks at the 3rd and many, many other things) is because I let billions of lings swarm into my main and natural.
http://replayfu.com/download/sr8k4m
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On July 16 2012 00:40 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:23 Shiiken wrote:
I would still like to see this versus a Zerg that doesnt do the mistakes i made. There should be no way to beat broodlord/infestor/spines/queen without a lucky vortex. Hidden in your statement lies belief in imbalance. Saw this build in action just before. Seems quite effective. Though the player did send zealots everywhere to tear through the zergs far away expos; which i domt believe to be the OPs intentions.
I did this too in a game I played, though I ended up dying to a roach/hydra timing. That's probably one of the best things you can do with the build, especially with warp prism. It also lets you get additional use out of the DT tech. This is actually how most late game toss builds have to deal with BL/Infestor.
I think anyone who has done this strategy or watched it would realize that going HT for archons is awful. This build gets ridiculously gas starved.
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good macro kills it. when u say "hasuobs is incorrect", you dont realize how much worse the macro of inferor players is. you beat pros 2 times with this build, well, that doesnt say all too much.
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On July 15 2012 21:27 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 09:49 JDub wrote:
Thanks for the guide. My only suggestion for trying to limit ridiculous responses is to not sound so over-confident about the build. I have no doubt it's a solid build, but you make it seem like you have completely broken the match up.
One random question I had -- if the Zerg 6-pools you and forces you into an awkward 1 base opener, is this build still something you would transition into, off of a 1-3 gate expo or 1 gate stargate opener? Or do you have a different build for against 6p? I would still transition into it, but just off a gateway expand (cannon in mineral line) http://drop.sc/40777This is an old replay against a 7pooling high master. I opened gateway instead of forge, but the idea is roughly the same. Going to watch your replay, Belial. EDIT: He made many major mistakes. Mistake 1 - entirely skipping the void ray. With the void ray parked outside your base (in the attack path), he would have been able to delay your attack or deal significant damage to your roaches while they were going to his base. Or at least he would have seen it. Mistake 2 - moving out with his army to clear the xel naga tower, which is when your roach attack hit. You have a void ray for that, and that is also why you don't skip it. Mistake 3 - not immediately destroying the pylon when he sees the drop. Archons cannot move through single file; he had zero archons helping defend against the drop and in the vortex. Mistake 4 - not warping in enough units and/or cannons (I guess you can call it poor macro). Plenty of occasions where he had idle warpgates and enough gas/minerals to warp in zealots/archons. Mistake 5 - insufficient pylons ('artosis pylons'). Mistake 6 - overall sloppy execution (can be explained by trying this build for the first few times). From my games: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/z8cPJ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9UwE1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OUZ0J.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2Plvv.jpg) It's not really fair to say that this 'loses to any timing' and then provide a replay where the opponent plays like crap (and misses the key element due to mistake #3; the archon toilet). If this was me playing, I would've thought 'woot, game won' as soon as you attacked into my mothership with no overseer, as that delay makes you miss any timing window you probably never even had. Condemned ridge is as open as it gets anyway at the 3rd base, drops are really unnecessary, I would applaud you for wasting the resources on drop tech to do drops on condemned ridge in cross map positions.
Thanks for the response. So then what do you think beats the build then? And do you think if both players played right (he macro'd better, I had an overseer right away lol), I still would have won?
By the way, I macro'd like a fucking champ that game. i had 83 supply at the 8:00 mark. DRG is the only other Zerg I've seen hit 80+ at the 8:00 mark ^^
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On July 16 2012 05:32 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 21:27 the p00n wrote:On July 15 2012 09:49 JDub wrote:
Thanks for the guide. My only suggestion for trying to limit ridiculous responses is to not sound so over-confident about the build. I have no doubt it's a solid build, but you make it seem like you have completely broken the match up.
One random question I had -- if the Zerg 6-pools you and forces you into an awkward 1 base opener, is this build still something you would transition into, off of a 1-3 gate expo or 1 gate stargate opener? Or do you have a different build for against 6p? I would still transition into it, but just off a gateway expand (cannon in mineral line) http://drop.sc/40777This is an old replay against a 7pooling high master. I opened gateway instead of forge, but the idea is roughly the same. Going to watch your replay, Belial. EDIT: He made many major mistakes. Mistake 1 - entirely skipping the void ray. With the void ray parked outside your base (in the attack path), he would have been able to delay your attack or deal significant damage to your roaches while they were going to his base. Or at least he would have seen it. Mistake 2 - moving out with his army to clear the xel naga tower, which is when your roach attack hit. You have a void ray for that, and that is also why you don't skip it. Mistake 3 - not immediately destroying the pylon when he sees the drop. Archons cannot move through single file; he had zero archons helping defend against the drop and in the vortex. Mistake 4 - not warping in enough units and/or cannons (I guess you can call it poor macro). Plenty of occasions where he had idle warpgates and enough gas/minerals to warp in zealots/archons. Mistake 5 - insufficient pylons ('artosis pylons'). Mistake 6 - overall sloppy execution (can be explained by trying this build for the first few times). From my games: It's not really fair to say that this 'loses to any timing' and then provide a replay where the opponent plays like crap (and misses the key element due to mistake #3; the archon toilet). If this was me playing, I would've thought 'woot, game won' as soon as you attacked into my mothership with no overseer, as that delay makes you miss any timing window you probably never even had. Condemned ridge is as open as it gets anyway at the 3rd base, drops are really unnecessary, I would applaud you for wasting the resources on drop tech to do drops on condemned ridge in cross map positions. Thanks for the response. So then what do you think beats the build then? And do you think if both players played right (he macro'd better, I had an overseer right away lol), I still would have won? By the way, I macro'd like a fucking champ that game. i had 83 supply at the 8:00 mark. DRG is the only other Zerg I've seen hit 80+ at the 8:00 mark ^^
I don't think you would have won, but things like these are just speculation. Actual results are far more interesting.
I think that the way to go is to command-move banelings behind the protoss army while having tons and tons of roaches behind it. When the zealots are gone, roaches will destroy archons. A problem however is that this is very inefficient so if the protoss just retreats after the zealots are gone and then uses all his gas and minerals on a new army he'll eventually end up with a full archon army and a-move you regardless of your unit composition. Time is on his side as well - if you place 50 spines he can just sneak the mothership in somewhere and mass recall them straight into your main. Prism drops with mass zealots are also nigh uncounterable.
To be really honest I'm not sure. If you can neural the mothership and double-vortex his own army you will win, but that should never ever happen...
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^ Well, with a lack of colossi, I think actually it could happen.
I mean you see DRG and pro, code s zergs beat things like carrier mass or mothership rushing using hydra drops or mutas, so I think that's the key to beating this style.
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Hydras get 2-shot by archons and don't do well against chargelots either... you need a meatshield for the hydras that are able to deal with the opponent's meatshield, which are zealots. The only thing that shoots to mind is roaches, but roach/hydra doesn't work in practice. The only other options are lings (oneshot in aoe by archon/die to zealots) and infestors (fungals to keep stuff in place).
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No, I don't think hydras do well against archons or chargelots, but I think you need the AA against the void rays (and I suppose the mothership too). I suppose a roach drop just plain, or maybe a roach drop with corruptors would be better?
Stargate openings are vulnerable to hydras, which is why you see pro zergs always go for hydras against Toss (i forget what series it was, but some Toss opened stargate and did NOT get colossus before third, and lost his third and a ton of army for it), and Toss always go for colossus before third when opening stargate vs a zerg who gets hydras.
I think there's just a timing window where if you go stargate vs Zerg, you really need colossus or else the hydras will do too much damage. Seeing as you spend all that gas on a mothership and templar tech and charge instead of colossus and army, I think there's some vulnerability to hydras with the build.
Anyways, maybe we can test this stuff out? I think you have a strong build here, and wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong here. I think we're similar level. belial.869@na.
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I've been using this build vs plat/diamond for a week now and have only had 3 initial losses due to bad mothership control (getting it sniped by not being used to the delay on vortex) and/or moving out at 160~ supply instead of being more patient as specified in the [G].
I've managed to hold a lot of builds I didn't believe I would, specifically baneling busts off 1 gate without the stargate being done, etc etc. This build is extremely solid as far as I can see, at least at this level.
Can any zerg who've experienced this lately talk about their reactions and what has worked/what hasn't?
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On July 16 2012 07:26 the p00n wrote:
Hydras get 2-shot by archons and don't do well against chargelots either... you need a meatshield for the hydras that are able to deal with the opponent's meatshield, which are zealots. The only thing that shoots to mind is roaches, but roach/hydra doesn't work in practice. The only other options are lings (oneshot in aoe by archon/die to zealots) and infestors (fungals to keep stuff in place).
Except that Ret style Roach/Hydra busts are the strongest counter to mothership expand builds like this one and that's essentially all that ever happens when I've done this on KR against diamond and masters players. When you skip templar or Colossus, while neglecting stuff like sentries, you simply can't defend those busts, especially when they send extra waves and have tons of overseers. We get it, you're proud of your build, but don't be the guy with the gimmicky build who claims he can beat progamers and knows more than all of them. The build has its advantages and the composition can be useful in many situations, but it also has many weaknesses that good players will take advantage of. Watch Nyast's games using this style to see some of what he had problems with and offer some solutions.
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On July 16 2012 07:34 Belial88 wrote:
No, I don't think hydras do well against archons or chargelots, but I think you need the AA against the void rays (and I suppose the mothership too). I suppose a roach drop just plain, or maybe a roach drop with corruptors would be better?
Stargate openings are vulnerable to hydras, which is why you see pro zergs always go for hydras against Toss (i forget what series it was, but some Toss opened stargate and did NOT get colossus before third, and lost his third and a ton of army for it), and Toss always go for colossus before third when opening stargate vs a zerg who gets hydras.
I think there's just a timing window where if you go stargate vs Zerg, you really need colossus or else the hydras will do too much damage. Seeing as you spend all that gas on a mothership and templar tech and charge instead of colossus and army, I think there's some vulnerability to hydras with the build.
Anyways, maybe we can test this stuff out? I think you have a strong build here, and wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong here. I think we're similar level. belial.869@na.
I do not have access to NA.
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So you basically KiWiKaKi it up? Early Mothership isn't exactly a new idea vs zerg. Cool that you do it though.
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EPT
