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On July 15 2012 05:51 Mahtasooma wrote:
I think anything without banes loses. Chargelots are insanely good vs anything Zerg, ESPECIALLY against anything lategame infestor without real ground support, because you cannot hold off zealots with pure infestor brood corruptor.
If you amove the banes, though, it's gg because they will be negated by the archons.
Banes are actually pretty bad because when a zealot charges into one the baneling explodes before the zealot connects and cancels his charge, so you will have 1 zealot charging through all the banelings soaking up the damage.
EDIT: And yeah, archon oneshots clumps of banelings and tanks infinity banelings.
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I did mention you need to micro and not amove the banes, didn't I.
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In your opinion how would stephano's 11 minute max do against this build. Because from personal experience I know that immortals are usually the thing that shuts 11 min max builds down. Can you hold it with zealot archons?
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On July 15 2012 06:38 FailCow wrote:
In your opinion how would stephano's 11 minute max do against this build. Because from personal experience I know that immortals are usually the thing that shuts 11 min max builds down. Can you hold it with zealot archons?
yes
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i think i got this today (im Z) but as for quick, its the longest game ive had for months (40 mins) all bases on map taken ohana(means family dont you know).
Anyway, yeah i was shocked as hell to see the MS but if i were better i would have got corruptors out faster, easily countered by just getting more shit than them by 10 mins and a moving.
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Ohana game: 900 gas and no archons out. Void ray is AFK. No cannons.
Daybreak: don't know what you were doing aside from getting pylon blocked, but that's not my build. Twilight council is way too late, templar archives is simply not created at all, why (even though you are at 400 gas?)? Mothership gets chrono'd zero times while both nexus are at 100 energy.
You lost these 2 games because you suck really hard compared to your opponent (and the game in the skytoss topic against this same guy confirms that statement), up to the point where you cannot even click chronoboost on a nexus for an entire 3 minutes or follow very simple build guidelines.
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On July 15 2012 07:02 the p00n wrote:Ohana game: 900 gas and no archons out. Void ray is AFK. No cannons. Daybreak: don't know what you were doing aside from getting pylon blocked, but that's not my build. Twilight council is way too late, templar archives is simply not created at all, why (even though you are at 400 gas?)? Mothership gets chrono'd zero times while both nexus are at 100 energy. You lost these 2 games because you suck really hard compared to your opponent (and the game in the skytoss topic against this same guy confirms that statement), up to the point where you cannot even click chronoboost on a nexus for an entire 3 minutes or follow very simple build guidelines.
Skyping when learning new builds is bad TT
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On July 15 2012 06:43 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 06:38 FailCow wrote:
In your opinion how would stephano's 11 minute max do against this build. Because from personal experience I know that immortals are usually the thing that shuts 11 min max builds down. Can you hold it with zealot archons? yes
Do you have a replay of you holding this against a decent opponent? The 3 replays you provided didnt really show much at all against styles that are common from zergs atm. But from I understand after reading the guide this build is close to unstoppable if you do things right. Thus, you surely must have more replays that show good games?
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On July 15 2012 07:07 Marooned wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 06:43 the p00n wrote:On July 15 2012 06:38 FailCow wrote:
In your opinion how would stephano's 11 minute max do against this build. Because from personal experience I know that immortals are usually the thing that shuts 11 min max builds down. Can you hold it with zealot archons? yes Do you have a replay of you holding this against a decent opponent? The 3 replays you provided didnt really show much at all against styles that are common from zergs atm. But from I understand after reading the guide this build is close to unstoppable if you do things right. Thus, you surely must have more replays that show good games?
I only started doing a FFE recently, I used to do this off a 1gate expo which didn't allow for stephano style responses. I tested this exhaustively with a high master zerg friend because my one worry was that if I switched to FFE it would start the game off at 2base P vs. 3base Z which allowed for the 11min roach max timing, which was not possible with a gateway expo. It is not only possible to hold off it is actually relatively easy. Unfortunately I do not have any of the replays as I deleted all the replays when I started playing again (I took a 6-7 month break from sc2 and had many old replays lingering, these were included). I'm gonna ladder a lot in the upcoming days so when I encounter the specific mass roach attack I shall upload the replay (which nobody generally does because void dps doesn't care about theorycraft involving 'ignoring the void and sniping 3rds', shit dies, and people at mid to high master (read: very little people in this topic, but 100% of my ladder opponents) know this intuitively).
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On July 14 2012 20:02 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? So people who mistake 'where' with 'we're' who are probably below masters get a reality check and don't take themselves too seriously. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote:On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx. Phoenix don't do really well against mutas. The reason is because phoenix are pretty much bad against everything except muta, whereas mutas can attack ground. You just make 3 to 4 to help hold off the early muta, after that you're good to go. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 18:46 Geiko wrote:
You say that you can trade zealots but not archons, implying that gas is the limiting factor here. So why not make your archons from dark templars instead of high templars ? Because that means you can trade less zealots. HT are optimal for this. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 18:53 oOOoOphidian wrote:
There's a reason the OP said 3 hatch muta (or even 2 hatch) is a strong counter that he often loses to.
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There's a reason the OP said he loses to it. I don't actually lose to it, it is just the only thing I consider a remotely viable response. I lose to it when I don't scout it or expect it but that's really my fault. You can perfectly defend against it but it's just annoying.
Wow why are you such a tool? I apologize that my grammar is not perfect on an internet forum, please provide replays where your opponent opens right into 3 base muta without any prior aggression and show me how you stop it.
It may also help your cause if you stop acting like a child when responding to people with valid questions.
Here my link http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1484823/1/iNeedaTeam/
now provide yours.
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On July 15 2012 08:22 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 20:02 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? So people who mistake 'where' with 'we're' who are probably below masters get a reality check and don't take themselves too seriously. On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote:On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx. Phoenix don't do really well against mutas. The reason is because phoenix are pretty much bad against everything except muta, whereas mutas can attack ground. You just make 3 to 4 to help hold off the early muta, after that you're good to go. On July 14 2012 18:46 Geiko wrote:
You say that you can trade zealots but not archons, implying that gas is the limiting factor here. So why not make your archons from dark templars instead of high templars ? Because that means you can trade less zealots. HT are optimal for this. On July 14 2012 18:53 oOOoOphidian wrote:
There's a reason the OP said 3 hatch muta (or even 2 hatch) is a strong counter that he often loses to.
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There's a reason the OP said he loses to it. I don't actually lose to it, it is just the only thing I consider a remotely viable response. I lose to it when I don't scout it or expect it but that's really my fault. You can perfectly defend against it but it's just annoying. Wow why are you such a tool? I apologize that my grammar is not perfect on an internet forum, please provide replays where your opponent opens right into 3 base muta without any prior aggression and show me how you stop it. It may also help your cause if you stop acting like a child when responding to people with valid questions. Here my link http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1484823/1/iNeedaTeam/now provide yours.
I reply to valid questions, you entering this thread with your monocle and Cuban cigar asking why the OP reeks of 4chan peasantry is not a valid question, it is pointless hating and contributes absolutely nothing.
If you have a valid question I shall answer it. The problem with [G] threads is that the OP usually has to plow through the massive hordes of jesters with distorted ideas, in my case ranging from zerg having the ability to snipe a mothership at 12 minutes with 20 corruptors and immediately remaxing on 200/200 roach, to actually not reading the topic and downloading the replays I have attached (albeit few). Then you have the other people who will think of a very specific strategy that may counter a build and totally disregard the fact that this specific build cannot actually be used due to it losing to everything else. An example would be in a recent 15 CC TvZ build that has been posted here lately, where some random person came in and said it would lose to 7pool. Well duh, but seeing as you have to go into 7pool blind and it losing to everything else, you can disregard that strategy.
I have provided a replay against 3-base muta and explained to you how to counter it.
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Thanks for the guide. My only suggestion for trying to limit ridiculous responses is to not sound so over-confident about the build. I have no doubt it's a solid build, but you make it seem like you have completely broken the match up.
One random question I had -- if the Zerg 6-pools you and forces you into an awkward 1 base opener, is this build still something you would transition into, off of a 1-3 gate expo or 1 gate stargate opener? Or do you have a different build for against 6p?
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I just played against someone who tried to do this.
This is a cute build, but I think it loses to any 'timing' :
Max roach, roach/hydra doom drops, mutas.
I identified Toss was doing this with his fleet beacon and weird, quick gateway count, so I went with a hydra drop because I recalled seeing this thread and thinking it'd fall to a hydra drop.
http://drop.sc/222255
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On July 15 2012 09:49 JDub wrote:
Thanks for the guide. My only suggestion for trying to limit ridiculous responses is to not sound so over-confident about the build. I have no doubt it's a solid build, but you make it seem like you have completely broken the match up.
One random question I had -- if the Zerg 6-pools you and forces you into an awkward 1 base opener, is this build still something you would transition into, off of a 1-3 gate expo or 1 gate stargate opener? Or do you have a different build for against 6p?
I would still transition into it, but just off a gateway expand (cannon in mineral line)
http://drop.sc/40777
This is an old replay against a 7pooling high master. I opened gateway instead of forge, but the idea is roughly the same.
Going to watch your replay, Belial.
EDIT: He made many major mistakes.
Mistake 1 - entirely skipping the void ray. With the void ray parked outside your base (in the attack path), he would have been able to delay your attack or deal significant damage to your roaches while they were going to his base. Or at least he would have seen it.
Mistake 2 - moving out with his army to clear the xel naga tower, which is when your roach attack hit. You have a void ray for that, and that is also why you don't skip it.
Mistake 3 - not immediately destroying the pylon when he sees the drop. Archons cannot move through single file; he had zero archons helping defend against the drop and in the vortex.
Mistake 4 - not warping in enough units and/or cannons (I guess you can call it poor macro). Plenty of occasions where he had idle warpgates and enough gas/minerals to warp in zealots/archons.
Mistake 5 - insufficient pylons ('artosis pylons').
Mistake 6 - overall sloppy execution (can be explained by trying this build for the first few times).
From my games:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/z8cPJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9UwE1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OUZ0J.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2Plvv.jpg)
It's not really fair to say that this 'loses to any timing' and then provide a replay where the opponent plays like crap (and misses the key element due to mistake #3; the archon toilet). If this was me playing, I would've thought 'woot, game won' as soon as you attacked into my mothership with no overseer, as that delay makes you miss any timing window you probably never even had. Condemned ridge is as open as it gets anyway at the 3rd base, drops are really unnecessary, I would applaud you for wasting the resources on drop tech to do drops on condemned ridge in cross map positions.
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Entire "strategy" is just a huge troll 
Don't know where to start xD
Ways to lose:
- Neural Archons
- Neural Mothership
- Fungal Zealots
- Broodlords with decent spread
- Roach + Corruptor
- Roach + Hydra + Corruptor
- Muta + Banelings
or to just sum it up:
Everything except Ling/Muta (considering you have storm to defend)
A style like that would only work, if you would:
- Focus Overseers like crazy while not losing your mothership
- Expand very aggressive, so you can be cost inefficent and/or have a lot of gas for storms/archons
- Not open FFE, be aggresive from the start and put pressure at deny expansions like a boss
If you still win with your strat, that means:
- Your opponent is just bad.
User was warned for this post
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On July 15 2012 21:58 Iatrik wrote:Entire "strategy" is just a huge troll Don't know where to start xD Ways to lose: - Neural Archons - Neural Mothership - Fungal Zealots - Broodlords with decent spread - Roach + Corruptor - Roach + Hydra + Corruptor - Muta + Banelings or to just sum it up: Everything except Ling/Muta (considering you have storm to defend) A style like that would only work, if you would: - Focus Overseers like crazy while not losing your mothership - Expand very aggressive, so you can be cost inefficent and/or have a lot of gas for storms/archons - Not open FFE, be aggresive from the start and put pressure at deny expansions like a boss If you still win with your strat, that means: - Your opponent is just bad.
According to previous posts, you are 'TdgAisora'. 1v1 platinum with very little games.
http://sc2ranks.com/eu/2111475/TdgAisora
Please go.
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On July 15 2012 22:15 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 21:58 Iatrik wrote:Entire "strategy" is just a huge troll Don't know where to start xD Ways to lose: - Neural Archons - Neural Mothership - Fungal Zealots - Broodlords with decent spread - Roach + Corruptor - Roach + Hydra + Corruptor - Muta + Banelings or to just sum it up: Everything except Ling/Muta (considering you have storm to defend) A style like that would only work, if you would: - Focus Overseers like crazy while not losing your mothership - Expand very aggressive, so you can be cost inefficent and/or have a lot of gas for storms/archons - Not open FFE, be aggresive from the start and put pressure at deny expansions like a boss If you still win with your strat, that means: - Your opponent is just bad. According to previous posts, you are 'TdgAisora'. 1v1 platinum with very little games. http://sc2ranks.com/eu/2111475/TdgAisoraPlease go.
Nice, got a fan! Hi Fan!
Smurfs gotta smurf.
Yeah, I'm only platinum 1v1 at that account atm, because I try out playing random.
Problem: My Terran is terrible and i have work to do.
But if a strategy is good or bad, just because a person with a big e-penis posts it, then i don't wanna live in that world anymore.
Your strat is really bad against everything (as listed above).
For good players, your vortex will just become a bigger forcefield. That's it.
And with no units to really fight a zerg, you'll just die.
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On July 15 2012 22:47 Iatrik wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 22:15 the p00n wrote:On July 15 2012 21:58 Iatrik wrote:Entire "strategy" is just a huge troll Don't know where to start xD Ways to lose: - Neural Archons - Neural Mothership - Fungal Zealots - Broodlords with decent spread - Roach + Corruptor - Roach + Hydra + Corruptor - Muta + Banelings or to just sum it up: Everything except Ling/Muta (considering you have storm to defend) A style like that would only work, if you would: - Focus Overseers like crazy while not losing your mothership - Expand very aggressive, so you can be cost inefficent and/or have a lot of gas for storms/archons - Not open FFE, be aggresive from the start and put pressure at deny expansions like a boss If you still win with your strat, that means: - Your opponent is just bad. According to previous posts, you are 'TdgAisora'. 1v1 platinum with very little games. http://sc2ranks.com/eu/2111475/TdgAisoraPlease go. Nice, got a fan! Hi Fan! Smurfs gotta smurf. Yeah, I'm only platinum 1v1 at that account atm, because I try out playing random. Problem: My Terran is terrible and i have work to do. But if a strategy is good or bad, just because a person with a big e-penis posts it, then i don't wanna live in that world anymore. Your strat is really bad against everything (as listed above). For good players, your vortex will just become a bigger forcefield. That's it. And with no units to really fight a zerg, you'll just die.
He has a >90% win rate in PvZ against players ranging from mid-master to GM. What will you accept as evidence that a build is viable? Must the OP defeat DRG in a bo7 in the GSL Finals?
Please stop spouting nonsense. The build is solid.
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Lol a lot of haters on TL. Will try this guide once I get a chance. Sounds interesting.
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EPT
