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On July 14 2012 07:43 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 07:18 sfdrew wrote:
I only have one question? Which GSL season did you win? I mean, since this build is sooooo good, and you are being very defensive to anybody who tries to question it, then it must be unstoppable. I don't see why you aren't the best player in the world. Are you smurfing down in Masters? Because it seems to me you should be #1 GM.
OR
This build is only good for a cheap win here and there and it's not the second coming of Jesus you make it out to be. Did you see his winrates in other MU... did you look at the replay... Pointless to you are they ? OP: I kinda doubted the build at first like everybody. I've looked at the replay and it does seems really good. I will try it and maybe share some replay for you. I kinda dont like stephano style against this build... I mean if he spread you out like on... Daybreak. You can put a lot of cannon and mothership but and voidray on the other side but if he remax non stop... you'll run out of cannon wouldnt you ? I'll wait for others to provide replay or i'll try it myself to see it... Like a lot of people I doubt the build but since you say you hold it easily... I will try it. Thx a lot for your time writting the build, we need more people like you in the community. and thx for the language it was kinda funny reading it 
Going pure roach isn't good, but maxed roach/hydra attacks with ~5 overseers are very strong against any mothership expand build if you don't opt for splash damage immediately. You'll have one vortex in time and you can often hold off the first wave, though you'll lose a lot of your army and any cannons you build. The problem comes when they just remax and attack you again. The thing is that most foreigners don't make hydras ever. These builds don't work on KR at all even against low masters players.
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Lol I tried this build and won a low master pretty easy I murdered his units at every engagement wasn't even close
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I faced this exact build on ladder today. Now, my opponent was only diamond and I was perhaps a bit lucky, who knows, but like Grapefruitseemed to want to convey earlier in this thread: A low gate and sentry count leave you very vulnerable to ground forces.
Generally when I scout only one stargate, I make lots of lings and roaches, check for a third to deny, and then attack nat. If the z is not too late in doing this, I believe the 3 base z should be able to break the p.
Sure, the void ray will help out a bit, but it will not be enough, I think. It wasn't in my match anyway. And that guy/gal even got the MS out.
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the fact that any race can even pull off a build close to this and have success against decent players is appalling
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On July 14 2012 10:46 bropedo wrote:
the fact that any race can even pull off a build close to this and have success against decent players is appalling
Uhh, why? You can 6 pool GM level people and beat them and that's not appalling? A build is a build for a reason. It works. Whether you like it or not doesn't mean it's "appalling" or cheese or skill-less. If it works, why not use it?
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"Going pure roach isn't good, but maxed roach/hydra attacks with ~5 overseers are very strong against any mothership expand build if you don't opt for splash damage immediately"
because so many zergs build 5 overseers and +3 missile roach/hydra against protoss amirite? And the build gets splash decently early, does it not?
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So I did it and the Zerg hit me with a roach-speedling all-in as my stargate was finishing. He unpowered the pylons before my void ray was out.
I scouted him not taking a 3rd and the fast roach warren + speed, so got extra cannons but couldn't afford sentries with the stargate.
What would you suggest? Just going for 4 gas straight up to afford the sentries + stargate, or going mass cannon (I got 4)?
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On July 14 2012 11:22 Fatam wrote:
"Going pure roach isn't good, but maxed roach/hydra attacks with ~5 overseers are very strong against any mothership expand build if you don't opt for splash damage immediately"
because so many zergs build 5 overseers and +3 missile roach/hydra against protoss amirite? And the build gets splash decently early, does it not?
They do when they scout stargate and a fast third, especially if they see fleet beacon. The build gets Archons, which are not good splash against a large army. Chargelot/Archon is very poor when your opponent gets a large size army before you are able to max out. I also never said +3 missile attack, but they can easily have +2 and if they were dedicated early +2/+2 is quite possible.
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On July 14 2012 11:35 Larkin wrote:
So I did it and the Zerg hit me with a roach-speedling all-in as my stargate was finishing. He unpowered the pylons before my void ray was out.
I scouted him not taking a 3rd and the fast roach warren + speed, so got extra cannons but couldn't afford sentries with the stargate.
What would you suggest? Just going for 4 gas straight up to afford the sentries + stargate, or going mass cannon (I got 4)?
Typically 4 cannons will hold. 1 sentry can help as well and you should have your void ray out before they can break that. I'm puzzled how you did not hold, you should post the replay for help.
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I logged in to state that the OP's "BALANCED." comment on Condemned Ridge had me literally burst out in laughter, both for the comment and the silliness that is late game PvZ haha.
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Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons.
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On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons.
You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play".
tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter
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There seems to be a lot of skepticism on this build just because it's different from what's currently accepted. However, please keep in mind the point of a guide is to show you how to play a new style. Kudos to the original poster; looks like a fairly solid build that exploits the fact that Zergs in the current metagame don't generally rush for spire, and instead prefer to stay on roach tech and max off that. I like it. :>.
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On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter
phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx.
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On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx.
What prevents you from making second stargate?
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On July 14 2012 17:38 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote:On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx. What prevents you from making second stargate?
Losing all your probes before that point. There's a reason the OP said 3 hatch muta (or even 2 hatch) is a strong counter that he often loses to.
If you manage to scout the spire in time (not at all a given, but probably what people need to be doing with their phoenix), you can opt for a 3rd base and enough cannons to defend, as well as potentially 2 sg for phoenix or simply go templar. There are other threads on that, though. The important thing is scouting the spire fast enough to take an early enough third, cannons, and the proper tech paths. You can go straight for blink even as you already have the TC.
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I'd love to neural your mothership and archons while having all your zealots fungaled.
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On July 14 2012 17:53 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 17:38 -Kira wrote:On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote:On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx. What prevents you from making second stargate? Losing all your probes before that point. There's a reason the OP said 3 hatch muta (or even 2 hatch) is a strong counter that he often loses to. If you manage to scout the spire in time (not at all a given, but probably what people need to be doing with their phoenix), you can opt for a 3rd base and enough cannons to defend, as well as potentially 2 sg for phoenix or simply go templar. There are other threads on that, though. The important thing is scouting the spire fast enough to take an early enough third, cannons, and the proper tech paths. You can go straight for blink even as you already have the TC.
If you lost probes to it than you're just bad, it's not the build. If you don't see spire you will see the gas count and lair timing. So even if he hides spire you can defend in time from mutas.
On July 14 2012 18:08 CheesusCrust wrote:
I'd love to neural your mothership and archons while having all your zealots fungaled.
I'd love to see you pull that off in a replay.
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You say that you can trade zealots but not archons, implying that gas is the limiting factor here. So why not make your archons from dark templars instead of high templars ?
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On July 14 2012 18:43 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 17:53 oOOoOphidian wrote:On July 14 2012 17:38 -Kira wrote:On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote:On July 14 2012 14:40 Yokoblue wrote:On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote:
Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? It just goes on to discredit this build also what level are you doing this build at? I know lots of zergs will go into muta once they see stargate and i don't know how you deal with mutas, considering you are getting no stalkers and turning all your temps into archons. You scout the spire really early with the phoenix so you just pump phoenix while taking a third with cannon. You almost got the perfect composition and build to counter muta play since you can get range phoenix if you want with ur phoenix and get storm instead of morphing all in archons. Later when he switch you can resume to "Normal play". tldr: get 2 cannon each base and crank phoenix to counter phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx. What prevents you from making second stargate? Losing all your probes before that point. There's a reason the OP said 3 hatch muta (or even 2 hatch) is a strong counter that he often loses to. If you manage to scout the spire in time (not at all a given, but probably what people need to be doing with their phoenix), you can opt for a 3rd base and enough cannons to defend, as well as potentially 2 sg for phoenix or simply go templar. There are other threads on that, though. The important thing is scouting the spire fast enough to take an early enough third, cannons, and the proper tech paths. You can go straight for blink even as you already have the TC. If you lost probes to it than you're just bad, it's not the build. If you don't see spire you will see the gas count and lair timing. So even if he hides spire you can defend in time from mutas.
1 phoenix and 1 void ray plus zealots against 14+ mutas. There's a reason the OP said he loses to it. Why don't you try the build and see the weaknesses yourself. Seeing gas count and lair doesn't mean muta, it could easily be infestor as well.
On July 14 2012 18:46 Geiko wrote:
You say that you can trade zealots but not archons, implying that gas is the limiting factor here. So why not make your archons from dark templars instead of high templars ?
I agree, this build requires a huge number of archons (especially early on vs attacks around ~14 minutes). DT tech may not be very useful with this opener, though, while HTs can contribute a lot potentially.
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EPT
