EPT[G] short guide on easy wins in PvZ - Page 5
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babybell
776 Posts
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ajkayken
77 Posts
On July 14 2012 18:56 babybell wrote: God i hate this OP. I've been on 100% PvZ winrate with this for a couple of months now ... this will only make zerg adapt or blizzard nerf mothership and voidray build time or something. nah brah 3hatch muta which i believe all zergs should just start opening blindly, kinda crushes this dont think its imba at all | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
Roach/hydra/corruptor does not work at all  | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On July 14 2012 12:59 jcroisdale wrote: Huh why is the first post written like where on 4chan? So people who mistake 'where' with 'we're' who are probably below masters get a reality check and don't take themselves too seriously. On July 14 2012 17:09 jcroisdale wrote: phoenix is not the counter to muta how much you want them to be. You just cant produce enough phoenix off of 1sg to combat mass phx. Phoenix don't do really well against mutas. The reason is because phoenix are pretty much bad against everything except muta, whereas mutas can attack ground. You just make 3 to 4 to help hold off the early muta, after that you're good to go. On July 14 2012 18:46 Geiko wrote: You say that you can trade zealots but not archons, implying that gas is the limiting factor here. So why not make your archons from dark templars instead of high templars ? Because that means you can trade less zealots. HT are optimal for this. On July 14 2012 18:53 oOOoOphidian wrote: There's a reason the OP said 3 hatch muta (or even 2 hatch) is a strong counter that he often loses to. --- There's a reason the OP said he loses to it. I don't actually lose to it, it is just the only thing I consider a remotely viable response. I lose to it when I don't scout it or expect it but that's really my fault. You can perfectly defend against it but it's just annoying. | ||
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guruPanda
Germany32 Posts
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capri1290
United States18 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
On July 14 2012 18:53 oOOoOphidian wrote: 1 phoenix and 1 void ray plus zealots against 14+ mutas. There's a reason the OP said he loses to it. Why don't you try the build and see the weaknesses yourself. Seeing gas count and lair doesn't mean muta, it could easily be infestor as well. I agree, this build requires a huge number of archons (especially early on vs attacks around ~14 minutes). DT tech may not be very useful with this opener, though, while HTs can contribute a lot potentially. If you fail to scout where 1400+200 gas goes to you deserve to lose. That's a scouting issue, not build, you're talking out of your ass. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On July 14 2012 20:33 capri1290 wrote: I would like to add that if you are a zerg player and would like to know how to play against these shenanigans watch this video http://youtu.be/yFYswgwLVEo The thing is though, that that as a 2 base all in, not a 3base macro play like the OP talks about. That said, I very much doubt this can work, it seems impossible to go for chargelot archon in the lategame, you need to kill those infestors and broodlords and chargelots and archons are both close range units. Double vortex, yeah... I'm not sure. I'd love to see a replay versus a really good zerg doesn't matter if protoss wins or loses, I'd like to analyse how the game goes on. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On July 14 2012 20:33 capri1290 wrote: I would like to add that if you are a zerg player and would like to know how to play against these shenanigans watch this video http://youtu.be/yFYswgwLVEo This is not relevant as he masses stalkers with immortals (instead of chargelot/archon) and doesn't take a 3rd. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On July 14 2012 19:11 ajkayken wrote: nah brah 3hatch muta which i believe all zergs should just start opening blindly, kinda crushes this dont think its imba at all Zergs should all go blind 3 hatch muta....? The filth that leaves peoples mouth at this forum. If you have been either P or Z for the last 6 months in this matchup you know this is horrible advice. | ||
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Yue13
11 Posts
On July 14 2012 21:19 Clarity_nl wrote: Zergs should all go blind 3 hatch muta....? The filth that leaves peoples mouth at this forum. If you have been either P or Z for the last 6 months in this matchup you know this is horrible advice. I agree with Clarity_nl, there are a lot of 2 base all ins that kill a 3 hatch muta build straightway. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
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Yue13
11 Posts
On July 14 2012 23:30 Flonomenalz wrote: So... how do you stop the Zerg from just double expanding once he scouts your mothership, while rushing Hive and BLs? And he just stops your 4th/5th base with 150 supply of roaches since your army can't engage his w/o mothership, which is terribly slow. As the OP explained, build a 200/200 army on 3 bases and attack. If you can expand to the 4th do so, if not, just attack. In theory your army will kill the zerg army. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
The only reason this would ever win is that the opponent doesn't know how to handle the mothership and does a weak attack that fails or stays defensive on 3 base for no reason. Vortex does absolutely nothing except stalling an attack for its duration when you dont have archons. So the only gain from the mothership is cloak and its cost inefficient damage. Not to mention the fact that when you build your mothership that early you severely gimp your economy. You delay your third until the mothership is out because there is no way you can defend a third while having invested in it but it not being done. You also get something like 5 less probes in the early game. 5 less probes against a zerg that masses drones to atleast 60. I've faced similar builds like this on the ladder and I lost once to it. Then I beat in in different ways. You just have to know how many hydra/infestors you need to handle the mothership and realise how little offensive potential the protoss has with such a build. | ||
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Shiiken
Germany4 Posts
In the mentioned game i did 3 major mistakes. First of all i moved my spines exactly when protoss engaged. While reburrowing the spines i didnt watch my broodlords and didnt split them well enough. My third mistake was not getting neural parasite. This would have enabled me to at least avoid one vortex by neuraling the mothership. So those three mistakes in combination cost me the game i would most probably have won otherwise. Not viable is mass muta play to deal real damage or even to finish off the protoss. Archons, Cannons and Mothership in combination are just way too strong for that. Thats why i instantly swiched away from mutas when i scouted the fleetbeacon. What on the other hand should be viable is mass roach drops on mulitple locations which of cause requires sick mulittasking. My opinion is that like a lot of protoss strategies (pylon wallins, timing attacks via unscouted pylons, dts) the discussed strategy is very easy to execute but also requires the zerg to make mistakes. Zerg MUST scout the fleetbeacon, respond properly and avoid the mistakes i made in order to win against this build. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
If you're going to say things like "mutas are the only remotely viable response" (not to mention that with your gas timing it makes mutas more likely), or be annoying for no reason when you win (I'm going to assume you knew that guy otherwise you're a real douchebag) you better have a lot better than that to back it up. Otherwise people are going to think you're a joke. Simple question, if you really have a 92% win percentage against good opponents, why did you chose awful replays? | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:59 the p00n wrote: Open up with your favorite FFE. I used to dislike FFE, but the maps have changed quite a lot since I formed that opinion. So I re-thought it, did some tests and I now believe that FFE is superior to gateway openings. I would like to note that 1 gate expand is good for pressure with gateways while FFE is good for teching and superior macro in exchange of huge passivity. In my opinion, you would always want to open stargate off a FFE, you can't get it faster off 1 gate expand, while FFE offers a slight better economy and an easier all in defense. On July 14 2012 01:59 the p00n wrote: [spoiler]Q: How do I deal with 'stephano-style' 3-base mass roach/ling timing at my 3rd? A: Vortex his army and send in your 2-3 archons (about as much as you'll have) and zealots, he should be around 160 supply and you should be around 90-100. Don't forget to warp in zealots and new archons after you have vortexed his army, it can be quite tempting to just stare at the wonderful vortex with idle gateways but this may result in defeat. Q: Mass mass mass 3/3 roach kiting on creep? A: A-move with vortex, I know that this sounds like a good counter to zealot/archon in theory but the brutal truth is that it is the worst thing the zerg can do and it is the easiest thing to deal with. When I saw chargelot archon, I was really interested in how this build would work against roaches. In those two faqs, you explain that you would vortex his army and send 3 archons in, as you later explain you only send 3 to minimize the amount of archons that could get killed by roaches and give them a good trade and that you want to trade mainly with zealots. However, the standard composition of stalker sentry immortal trades so well against roaches that there's almost no losses. I am still afraid that the roaches will simply outnumber my zealot force and trade armies until my army is depleted and he overwhelms me. As you explain, you use vortex to stop that from happening, but I feel like a good player should be able run back a little after the roaches are out of the vortex and start kiting you into oblivion. Detection is also not a problem at high level since he will always have overseers and there's no way to kill them since you don't use blink stalkers. This leads me to ask the question, how exactly "the brutal truth is that it is the worst thing the zerg can do and it is the easiest thing to deal with" as you state it. I feel vortex isn't enough and you will need forcefields to at least stop the roaches from kiting. Aside from that, even if they trade cost effectively, let me remind you that zerg has better economy against a passive FFE opening like you do. (no pressure, only a light poke with void ray phoenix). Could you please explain some more? Your replay pool is quite small, could you include a replay against a good zerg player going for some serious mass roach style and kiting you on creep? | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
Without vortex roaches are going to kite you all day long early game (lategame you just overwhelm him and I don't think it is humanly possible to perfectly kite every single skirmish while you are attacking in other places, too), so what you do is use vortex and immediately kill all the roaches. | ||
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Gluon
Netherlands402 Posts
On July 14 2012 23:30 Flonomenalz wrote: So... how do you stop the Zerg from just double expanding once he scouts your mothership, while rushing Hive and BLs? And he just stops your 4th/5th base with 150 supply of roaches since your army can't engage his w/o mothership, which is terribly slow. This. It's a decent build (a bit too decent, but then vortex might be nerfed in HotS..) against non-world top players, but versus someone like Stephano who does know how to handle pvz lategame, it should autolose. Basically it depends on lategame control, if both p and z are near perfect, z should win there  | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
If you amove the banes, though, it's gg because they will be negated by the archons. | ||
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