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On July 14 2012 03:38 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:27 Insomni7 wrote:On July 14 2012 03:17 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 03:11 Insomni7 wrote:
I mean what you are doing is playing for a lategame composition as far as I can tell. You are getting an optimal composition off of 3 base. Still I would imagine by the time you attack the zerg would also be rolling broodlord infestor and it just comes down to a micro war. It seems like your strategy is very much to coax the zerg into a bad attack with such a weird build. If they just stay as passive as you, Id guess it would come down to BL spread, fungals, vortexes, spines ect. same as always. If they stay as passive as me then I can probably get a 4th base, and 8gas archon 200/200 will win no matter what. At this point it becomes irrelevant on how many bases the zerg is on or on what units he can remax simply because he cannot even chip away at your 200/200 divinegoddeathball. Additionally, if you are of the tryhard kind, you can have 2 warp-prisms on the map and warp in 20 zealots at a spot where he won't have army and destroy a base. A gun is enough to kill a man, this simple a-move build is the gun. If for whatever reason you need a large rifle or a cannon or a bazooka you can do that too (warp prism drops become nigh uncounterable lategame, so do mass carriers with psionic storm). It's just not really necessary. This gives you a strong composition, but it all still comes down to the pvz lategame. If you are comfortable with that stage of the matchup it is a fine build, but there are many zergs who are equally comfortable there. Ofc there are many things strong in the lategame like warpprisms but that is all standard stuff. Your army is strong, but it isnt significantly stronger than the zerg if he has gone right up to BL infestor. If you fight it still comes down to micro. It seems that you are under the impression that the game is perfectly balanced with no clear advantage (slight at best) at the lategame. This is not true. Lategame Z cannot beat the lategame of the other races provided they have all their economy and infrastructure up. An example would be ZvT. I often win lategame T as Z, but I am usually facing MMM or 3/3 thor/tank/hellion with vikings. If I was facing 3/3 battlecruiser/viking with mass raven, I would certainly lose the game. It is however extremely hard for a terran to suddenly pull 15-20 full energy BCs out of his ass with 3/3 and a lot of full energy ravens accompanied with that, there's no real effective way to transition into that (at least not that I know of). The same is true for ZvP. If the P has a lot of high templars with storms and a bunch of 3/3 carriers and a mothership, there is actually nothing you can do. The same is true for a 200/200 energy mothership with 200/200 3/0 archon behind it, and that is actually attainable - it's not only attainable, it's quite easy in fact if you follow this build. Normal ZvP endgame, although already protoss favored (please don't argue this), is not unwinnable for a zerg. Walls of spines/spores, infestors, broodlords would all do well. That is not true for this composition. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:32 Nyast wrote:
Btw, do you continue to add voidrays afterwards ? It sounds like voidrays would nicely complement this compo. I don't continue to add void rays as it is not necessary for me to win. If you are creating a nice painting you do not have to use every brush in your atelier/repertoire either, even though they may be really good brushes and can have positive effects on your painting. If you want to add void rays, then you can totally do that.
I agree once you start getting 3-3 carriers you will be close to invincible, but you arent getting 3-3 carriers with this build and I do not believe that archon mothership is a composition which is anything but the equal of BL infestor. I actually think zerg will always have a slight edge in this match because so much of it comes down more to the zerg's spread than any micro the protoss can do.
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On July 14 2012 03:44 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:38 Arcanefrost wrote:On July 14 2012 02:16 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 02:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there. This is incorrect. He cannot have enough corruptors and ground forces. Keep in mind that the mothership has 700 combined hitpoints with 2 base armor and that archons deal heavy splash damage, and you have a void ray in there too. Nothing prevents you from moving your mothership a bit back, corruptors only have 6 range and will be shot at by archons/cannons. His window is extremely limited as well as you will get 50 energy extremely quickly, which is enough for 1 vortex combined with your starting energy. He just makes corruptors first, snipes your ms as it pops and then proceeds to transition into roachmax which denies your third. Hasuobs also said this once during a cast. What you are describing is not possible, no matter how much you want it to be. I do remember the HasuObs cast where he said this, but he was incorrect as well (or not using the proper build). The mothership will pop between 10 and 11 minutes. You will need a ridiculous amount of corruptors before 12-13 minutes (that is when I get 100 energy and can vortex your corruptors, and then instantly kill them by means of an archon toilet. Remember that the few seconds of invulnerability that was added after exiting the vortex is not as relevant to air units, as air units spread much slower than ground units.) Also, I can just move the mothership back.
you seem super confidernt you should probably go in gstl as pvz sniper!!
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On July 14 2012 03:51 Primal666 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:44 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 03:38 Arcanefrost wrote:On July 14 2012 02:16 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 02:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there. This is incorrect. He cannot have enough corruptors and ground forces. Keep in mind that the mothership has 700 combined hitpoints with 2 base armor and that archons deal heavy splash damage, and you have a void ray in there too. Nothing prevents you from moving your mothership a bit back, corruptors only have 6 range and will be shot at by archons/cannons. His window is extremely limited as well as you will get 50 energy extremely quickly, which is enough for 1 vortex combined with your starting energy. He just makes corruptors first, snipes your ms as it pops and then proceeds to transition into roachmax which denies your third. Hasuobs also said this once during a cast. What you are describing is not possible, no matter how much you want it to be. I do remember the HasuObs cast where he said this, but he was incorrect as well (or not using the proper build). The mothership will pop between 10 and 11 minutes. You will need a ridiculous amount of corruptors before 12-13 minutes (that is when I get 100 energy and can vortex your corruptors, and then instantly kill them by means of an archon toilet. Remember that the few seconds of invulnerability that was added after exiting the vortex is not as relevant to air units, as air units spread much slower than ground units.) Also, I can just move the mothership back. you seem super confidernt you should probably go in gstl as pvz sniper!!
He's playing the build so one could assume he knows it better than people who do not use it frequently.
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On July 14 2012 04:03 -Kira wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:51 Primal666 wrote:On July 14 2012 03:44 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 03:38 Arcanefrost wrote:On July 14 2012 02:16 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 02:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
Mothership on 2 bases doesn't work. If the zerg makes fast corruptors he can snipe it before you have the energy to vortex, and your archon count isn't high enough yet to stop them. With your mothership dead it becomes near impossible to take a third, and it only goes downhill from there. This is incorrect. He cannot have enough corruptors and ground forces. Keep in mind that the mothership has 700 combined hitpoints with 2 base armor and that archons deal heavy splash damage, and you have a void ray in there too. Nothing prevents you from moving your mothership a bit back, corruptors only have 6 range and will be shot at by archons/cannons. His window is extremely limited as well as you will get 50 energy extremely quickly, which is enough for 1 vortex combined with your starting energy. He just makes corruptors first, snipes your ms as it pops and then proceeds to transition into roachmax which denies your third. Hasuobs also said this once during a cast. What you are describing is not possible, no matter how much you want it to be. I do remember the HasuObs cast where he said this, but he was incorrect as well (or not using the proper build). The mothership will pop between 10 and 11 minutes. You will need a ridiculous amount of corruptors before 12-13 minutes (that is when I get 100 energy and can vortex your corruptors, and then instantly kill them by means of an archon toilet. Remember that the few seconds of invulnerability that was added after exiting the vortex is not as relevant to air units, as air units spread much slower than ground units.) Also, I can just move the mothership back. you seem super confidernt you should probably go in gstl as pvz sniper!! He's playing the build so one could assume he knows it better than people who do not use it frequently.
Then again I am also the one who has most interest in the build seeming strong as I am the one who published a guide on it, so it is important to keep an open mind and question what you read (goes for every part of life actually). But debating things that are actually not possible (the corruptor sniping crap that has come up) is pretty annoying.
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You delay your 3rd and 4th gate until the Fleet Beacon while staying low on Sentries?
Great build, I can't see how anything could go wrong.
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On July 14 2012 04:23 Grapefruit wrote:
You delay your 3rd and 4th gate until the Fleet Beacon while staying low on Sentries?
Great build, I can't see how anything could go wrong.
That's what the void ray and scouting for a 3rd is for.
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Man 92% winrate in PvZ, that's certainly impressive. I'm not even Protoss nor Zerg, but I've read it anyway. Seems solid.
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Build reads very well, seems like a good one. Thou I don't see how you prevent the zerg from scouting with an overseer - seeing your play for exactly what is, Then taking an early 4th and eariler 5th and simply flooding you with roach/corruptor/infestor at about the 14 minute mark.
Beyond that this all seems a bit pointless to me. In HotS the vortex will only effect ground units and I think 1.5 will also make that change for WoL. You're basing you're entire build on a broken mehcanic, sure you'll win and for most people that is all that matters but whats the point?
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I don't see how you could hold your third against a stephano max roach ling push with burrow. Ur army when it hits would consist of zealots, 1 void ray, 1 mothership and some pheonixes with cannons. 2 pronged attack at nat and third, say on day break, sniping cannons and burrowing when mothership arrives. Impossible to hold both sides as roach owns zealots and your air units will deal negligible damage.
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On July 14 2012 04:35 NoNonsense wrote:
I don't see how you could hold your third against a stephano max roach ling push with burrow. Ur army when it hits would consist of zealots, 1 void ray, 1 mothership and some pheonixes with cannons. 2 pronged attack at nat and third, say on day break, sniping cannons and burrowing when mothership arrives. Impossible to hold both sides as roach owns zealots and your air units will deal negligible damage.
Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs.
That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases?
Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up.
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the p00n, Thank you for the guide 
Can you post more replays of you winning against a zerg that maxes broodlords/infestor?
I think it's quite hard to hit good vortexes if the zerg has a good spread...
I also would like to see you defend your third against the max roach/ling build from stephano.
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On July 14 2012 04:34 IcemanAsi wrote:
Build reads very well, seems like a good one. Thou I don't see how you prevent the zerg from scouting with an overseer - seeing your play for exactly what is, Then taking an early 4th and eariler 5th and simply flooding you with roach/corruptor/infestor at about the 14 minute mark.
Beyond that this all seems a bit pointless to me. In HotS the vortex will only effect ground units and I think 1.5 will also make that change for WoL. You're basing you're entire build on a broken mehcanic, sure you'll win and for most people that is all that matters but whats the point?
You don't get that much of an economic boost from grabbing an earlier 4th and 5th and the drones cut into your supply count. For example, 2 bases is twice as good as 1 base, but 3 bases is only 1.5x as good as 2 bases. Eventually you get negative returns because the additional drones required to make use of the base eat into your food count, which eats into your army strength (but feeds your remax strength). 100 bases is the same as 50 bases.
The only thing the zerg could make use of is gas (using the additional bases only for production and gas mining). Gas is invested in high tech units and zerg high tech units don't work against mass archon with the vortex mechanic. Your best bet is bl/inf, and that's what everyone is doing to me (and failing).
The second part of your post is completely irrelevant to everything so I shall ignore it.
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On July 14 2012 04:43 Tombomb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:35 NoNonsense wrote:
I don't see how you could hold your third against a stephano max roach ling push with burrow. Ur army when it hits would consist of zealots, 1 void ray, 1 mothership and some pheonixes with cannons. 2 pronged attack at nat and third, say on day break, sniping cannons and burrowing when mothership arrives. Impossible to hold both sides as roach owns zealots and your air units will deal negligible damage. Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs. That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases? Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up.
It seems impossible, but I can verify from own experience that it actually is holdable with this build. There's not much else to say. What you think is not holdable with this build due to the low amount of units, actually is holdable.
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On July 14 2012 04:48 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:43 Tombomb wrote:
Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs.
That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases?
Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up. It seems impossible, but I can verify from own experience that it actually is holdable with this build. There's not much else to say. What you think is not holdable with this build due to the low amount of units, actually is holdable.
Can you include a replay? The only replay we have of you holding anything remotely similar to the max roach style that's come up several times is the game where you faced mutalisk play. By the time you were hit with a sizable roach force, your army had grown considerably larger than it was when a Stephano esq. max would hit you.
We're not trying to punch holes in your strategy or ridicule you, we're trying to understand your reasoning and see an example of what you are trying to teach us.
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WTF is with these responses? 2-base Mothership into expand is one of the most solid PvZ builds in the game.
If you add cannons under your Mothership, Corrupter diving is never cost effective because of the HP of the Mothership and the good DPS that cannons do. Zealot, Archon + Vortex is literally the most cost-effective combination in the game assuming equal supply, unless the Zerg tosses banelings or something in the vortex. Even if they make enough Corrupters to kill your Mothership, you just power your 3 base economy to a huge Zealot Archon counter attack, and there's no way Zerg can reinforce over that after he's invested enough gas and supply into killing a Mothership with Corrupters, despite Archons and Cannon fire.
This guy has a decent MMR, and like he said, plays vs high GM players. What more do people want? If you have a higher MMR, you should be out solving your own problems or making your own builds, but I'm a firm believer that any reasonably well thought-out strategy can beat any caliber of player in the right hands.
Most responses in this thread are forum-nerdery, where they just state a counter as if the opponent always has infinity information. One of the benefits of 2-base Mothership is that they know you have a Mothership, but have virtually no idea what is under the Mothership until they commit to an attack, or sacrifice an overseer and hopefully see everything that's there. That's a lot of time for the Protoss player to stabilize into a super solid unit count. People should actually consider the actual game, instead of saying stuff like "well, they could easily just drop banelings on every mineral line, have max mutas, fungal your army to death, Corrupter snipe the Mothership and then EASILY win! Duh!"
Regarding Sentries in PvZ - I'm just waiting for the day that Zergs automatically take an additional geyser on top of their Roach plays, research drops and just drop a max Roach army on top of a pathetic sentry count and easily win games. Sentries in PvZ are so overrated.. why do people think that no sentries = no safety? I'm shocked that Zergs already don't automatically research drops when seeing more than 3 sentries on the field. It's such an easy win if their sentries have basically 0 cost effectiveness. More than anything, all of these pushes designed to rely on forcefields will become obsolete as Zergs figure out that drops + Roaches completely counter a sentry-based army. In the future, more Zealots and building walls will be used to expand and control space, rather than sentry energy, as drops get more popular. Hopefully this will cause Protoss players to spend gas on units that have a long life-span and wide range of use... at least some people are already figuring these steps out and planning for the future.
@OP: I think your usage of words makes people immediately judgmental. I have to admit, when I first clicked on the thread, I wanted to check your replays to see what caliber of players you were playing. I expected it to be like High Diamond or something, just by the title of the thread. If the title actually described the build order, people would probably be more respectful.
In any event, I use a very similar build, and have a very similar winrate at 1000-1200 Masters NA. My build opens double Stargate pressure and gets a little later Mothership. I also rely on cannons quite a bit, basically borrowing the opener from that other thread about the Mothership, VR expand, but I add Immortals on 3 bases so I can power through Roaches and Spine walls. The high Void Ray count really helps out in the late-game especially.. I hate investing gas into units that have an expiration date on their usefulness. In my games, I usually just sit and wait for a favorable engagement (basically if I land a single Vortex), and then counter for the win with warp prism reinforcement. I like the 2x Stargate opener for double Phoenix in the event that they open Spire, by the way.
The ability to harass really heavily and recall is a big bonus, too... something that traditional PvZ does not offer whatsoever.
Overall, any build that opens 2-base Mothership is solid assuming they take the necessary precautions and scout well. Of course, stuff like drops, Nydus, etc are going to cause problems, but not more problems than any other sentry-based build would already have. Regarding this specific build, unless you have a quick Immortal transition planned or a high Void Ray/Phoenix Count along with cannons, I'm also a little worried about a Zerg that blindly eco Roaches really hard. Of course you can trade very efficiently with a Vortex, but if you're ever out of MS energy after reinforcement, I think you're going to have trouble without some beefy, high anti-armored DPS units.
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On July 14 2012 04:46 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:34 IcemanAsi wrote:
Build reads very well, seems like a good one. Thou I don't see how you prevent the zerg from scouting with an overseer - seeing your play for exactly what is, Then taking an early 4th and eariler 5th and simply flooding you with roach/corruptor/infestor at about the 14 minute mark.
Beyond that this all seems a bit pointless to me. In HotS the vortex will only effect ground units and I think 1.5 will also make that change for WoL. You're basing you're entire build on a broken mehcanic, sure you'll win and for most people that is all that matters but whats the point?
You don't get that much of an economic boost from grabbing an earlier 4th and 5th and the drones cut into your supply count. For example, 2 bases is twice as good as 1 base, but 3 bases is only 1.5x as good as 2 bases. Eventually you get negative returns because the additional drones required to make use of the base eat into your food count, which eats into your army strength (but feeds your remax strength). 100 bases is the same as 50 bases. The only thing the zerg could make use of is gas (using the additional bases only for production and gas mining). Gas is invested in high tech units and zerg high tech units don't work against mass archon with the vortex mechanic. Your best bet is bl/inf, and that's what everyone is doing to me (and failing). The second part of your post is completely irrelevant to everything so I shall ignore it.
Offcourse 4th and 5th mentioned are for gas only as you would not be mined out at the main at that time. ( 78 drones total )
On three base mineral and 10 geyser I can maintain constant production of mass roach+corruptor+infestor which I don't see how your'e holding as fungals + roach seems to beat everything you have out and even a few corruptor should be able to take out your mothership as you don't have alot of AA ( and what AA you have can be fungaled and has short range ), unless I missed something ( are you keeping up the VR production? ) . the extra gas goes for the infestors and double upgrades while maintaing max supply of production.
How would you take your 4th?
As for the second part of my post. I agree that as long as the mechanic is in the game it should be used as you should play to win but it's still broken. They tried to fix it before and failed ( Temporary invulnrability doesn't last long enough to unclump air units ) and they are finnaly removing it in HotS ( No vortex on air units for that reason precisely ). While this might not be immdietaly relevant for this discussion, how the removal of the keystone of your build is completely irrelevant escapes me.
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This build seems awfully similar to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271279 with the exception that you're going for Zealot Archon instead of Blink Stalker. Have you tried the latter as well as the former? Seems like +2 blink could give you a good period of strength, even without the fast toilets.
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By the way, regarding Corrupter vs Mothership - most people won't need a Vortex to fight that other than to buy time. Almost every Zerg player clumps their Corrupters up naturally, and they will if you micro the Mothership back. That's when Archons are valuable vs Corrupters. Corrupters actually spread quite well when coming out of a Vortex unless there are like 25 of them.
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On July 14 2012 04:35 NoNonsense wrote:
I don't see how you could hold your third against a stephano max roach ling push with burrow. Ur army when it hits would consist of zealots, 1 void ray, 1 mothership and some pheonixes with cannons. 2 pronged attack at nat and third, say on day break, sniping cannons and burrowing when mothership arrives. Impossible to hold both sides as roach owns zealots and your air units will deal negligible damage.
You can't kill units that you can't see. Roaches don't hit air either. With "stephano max roach" you won't have the necessary amount of overseers to see the army long enaugh before mothership, voidray, phenixes and cannons kill them.
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On July 14 2012 04:53 Tombomb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:48 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 04:43 Tombomb wrote:
Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs.
That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases?
Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up. It seems impossible, but I can verify from own experience that it actually is holdable with this build. There's not much else to say. What you think is not holdable with this build due to the low amount of units, actually is holdable. Can you include a replay? The only replay we have of you holding anything remotely similar to the max roach style that's come up several times is the game where you faced mutalisk play. By the time you were hit with a sizable roach force, your army had grown considerably larger than it was when a Stephano esq. max would hit you. We're not trying to punch holes in your strategy or ridicule you, we're trying to understand your reasoning and see an example of what you are trying to teach us.
The replay on condemned ridge that I have attached is a good example of a stephano-esque build, although he used a lot of hydras instead of roaches. It accomplished roughly the same thing, however, and even made me lose my mothership (which I could have saved). Keep in mind that if he has only roaches your void ray and mothership will have free reign. If you are feeling insecure against mass roach timings (which I don't), you can always add one extra void ray.
I'm a bit thin on recent, relevant replays but I can probably find a few more.
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EPT
